Well, it's a long shot, but you never know.

I think if I had overheard that, I probably would have outright asked. I would likely say, "Excuse me, but I couldn't help but overhear your conversation - is it your policy to not hire women?" If they said no, then I would say, "Well, I guess I just wonder why it is that he would make a decision about whether there is a job available based on whether the caller was male or female." If they didn't have a good answer, I would cancel my order and leave.

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Or, there may be an opening for the night shift, or in a branch with currently all female employees who feel a bit insecure.

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I can see your point, nonesuch, but I'd still say it's sufficient evidence to convict.

I think the largest point of feminism is that gender shouldn't make a difference under ANY circumstances. Night shift or not, all females or not, the store should be safe, secure and healthy for anyone... Considering gender as a factor when hiring is simply wrong - "good" motives or not.

And anyway - I think we're being too quick to defend this guy. I'd say it's more likely he has women working with kids (gasp) or other responsabilities. He probably has some piggish motives for limiting his hiring to men.

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I think the largest point of feminism is that gender shouldn't make a difference under ANY circumstances. Night shift or not, all females or not, the store should be safe, secure and healthy for anyone... Considering gender as a factor when hiring is simply wrong - "good" motives or not.

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Here is another thought. Suppose the company had been employing mostly men. Would it be all right for the manager to prefer a woman for the next job that becomes available?

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

[ 21 June 2004: Message edited by: brie ]

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Actually in BC I'm pretty sure there are guidelines in the Labour Code regarding this.

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No. Discrimination along the lines you suggest would be a gross violation. In fact, any employer wanting to discriminate on this basis would have to make a case to the human rights commission (up until a few weeks ago when we had one) and get an exemption, provided they'd grant one.

There *are* provisions in the workers' compensation regulations governing safety provisions employers have to provide with regards to violence in the workplace.

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...when dealing with late night shifts, lots of cash -such as a gas station, convienience store- and only one staffer on shift, yes, I feel gender should be taken into consideration. Most employers I've ever talked to at those establishments do so. Actually in BC I'm pretty sure there are guidelines in the Labour Code regarding this.

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Well, it is true that the employer must provide a safe work environment for their employees, male or female. It is also true that no employee needs to put themselves at risk to protect their employers assets. Personally, I don't think ANYONE should have to work alone with large amounts of cash in the wee hours.

I really don't see how being a man is going to make you safer in an armed robbery situation, or any robbery situation for that matter. (Could you explain that, Trinitty?)

edited to add: If there are such stipulations in the labour code I'd really like to know about them. I'd never have to work another night shift!

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]

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It is also true that no employee needs to put themselves at risk to protect their employers assets. Personally, I don't think ANYONE should have to work alone with large amounts of cash in the wee hours.

I really don't see how being a man is going to make you safer in an armed robbery situation, or any robbery situation for that matter.

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Dug. Just over 20 years ago I worked at a Shell station (yeah, I know -- I was 17 and more than averagely ignorant. And the question of whether I qualified as a man is left as an exercise for the reader).

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I wasn't even thinking of robbery. I was thinking of unpleasantness: yahoos, yobbos, drunks and jerks; harassment, bad jokes, sexual advances...

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Maybe the boss shouldn't hire blacks because some customers are racist. Maybe they shouldn't hire people who are openly gay, because some customers are homophobic.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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I really don't see how being a man is going to make you safer in an armed robbery situation, or any robbery situation for that matter

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No responsible employer would ever put a woman alone working graveyard shifts at a gas station, or convienence store, whether large sums of money are involved or not.

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Back to the example at the beginning of the thread, maybe the manager is gay and only wants hot young studs to work there.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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If we accept the argument that women shouldn't do dangerous work, very soon, in many areas, there'll be no work that we'll be "allowed" to do.

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This is a good example of the logical fallacy known as a slippery slope argument.

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Has dangerous work and dangerous working conditions become the same thing?

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Being a man puts you in significantly less risk of being abducted, raped and murdered by a sexual predator though.

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And this should affect the work women are allowed to do?

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No responsible employer would ever put a woman alone working graveyard shifts at a gas station, or convienence store, whether large sums of money are involved or not.

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No responsible employer would put anyone, man or woman, alone on graveyard shifts at a gas staition or convenience store.

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I was thinking of unpleasantness: yahoos, yobbos, drunks and jerks; harassment, bad jokes, sexual advances...

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How is daylight going to save a woman from that?

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How about this? Maybe women shouldn't work at all, and should only leave the house to get groceries or take the kids to school. It's a scary, dangerous world and women need men to protect them.

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It should be judged on a case by case basis.

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That's exactly what the manager did. He avoided the problem, case by case. Once the applicant shows up, he can't say, "Sorry, you're too small and pretty. I'm holding out for brie's stepmother."

Daylight is quite big help, actually. People are more likely to be going home from work than from the bars - and there are a lot more people around. My daughter was accosted by two inebriated jerks in a deserted parking lot, after the late shift. She was lucky: they only called her some foul names, scared her silly and slashed her tires.
After another girl has been raped and killed, everybody lights candles, says things like "The manager should have known better than to let a young girl work alone at night", then goes home and gets a good night's sleep. The manager doesn't - ever again. If he chickens out and avoids all that, i don't blame him.

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He avoided the problem, case by case. Once the applicant shows up, he can't say, "Sorry, you're too small and pretty. I'm holding out for brie's stepmother."

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I think my posting history here is clear enough on that. I don't understand why we can't have a conversation on here without pulling out anti-aircraft artillery. Extremes are always used and I think they cheapen a debate. Example: "Oh yes, of course I agree with Gilliad leaders, I think it would be just super if women were locked in their homes and covered from head to foot, used for their functioning uteri and unable to laugh in public. In fact, I want to emmigrate Iran RFN!! It's not perfect, but it's damned close enough."

I can't remember who said it, but that "any responsible employer wouldn't put someone by themselves on graveyard shift at gas stations and convienience stores"???? They are always by themselves in my experience. It's too expensive to pay two employees for a shift overnight at those establishments.

I've worked that shift before at a Payless centre, filling in for the regular employee. That was okay with my employer, he asked me if it was okay with me and it was for the few times I did it. Other women would sub for it occaisionally too. The cops would come in twice as often on those shifts, I hope that isn't "sexist". What he didn't like doing was hiring a female for the fulltime shift on a permanent basis BECAUSE there were dangerous people coming in at 3:30 am, restraining orders and all, they were menacing enough in daylight hours. That's the reason why he had concerns, not armed robbery, he also said you can't give them the money fast enough. I think he himself was just worried about what "could" happen to a female employee by themselves, and personally wasn't willing to take the safety risk because he would blame himself. It's his establishment, so I think that's his call.

He was a fine boss. I filled propane tanks and checked oil all day, men would sometimes leave because they didn't want a human with breasts pumping their gas or filling their bar-b-que tanks. Occaisionally they would complain to the boss, or ask him to prove that I was qualified and he'd tell them to take their business elsewhere, permenantly. His staff was mostly female, only three guys between two stations, and one of them was the full-time graveyard shift. If you still want to call him sexist, go right ahead.

I mentioned the large sums of cash because that is what can be the lure to the establishment initially, and if there's a lone female behind the till the situation can devolve rapidily. Is it "fair" that this would be taken into consideration? Of course not, it sucks. But I think it is prudent in _some_ situations.

It was really easy to talk to my manager about it.

One funny story about working at the gas station :

Once in awhile, you get some really stupid people who yell at you for the high gas price. One man came in and started shouting at me because our gas was a tad bit more than at Turbo's across the street. I explained to him that I do not set the price, and before I could explain further he shouted " well I want to talk to your manager - he can't get away with this! " and I said
" SHE is simply the owner, and the company approves the gas prices from Head Office - AND the government and oil reserves are the major factors in the gas prices Mister."

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I can't remember who said it, but that "any responsible employer wouldn't put someone by themselves on graveyard shift at gas stations and convienience stores"???? They are always by themselves in my experience. It's too expensive to pay two employees for a shift overnight at those establishments.

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I made that comment, Trinitty. And I'm a Union Gal so I stand by it. The employer has a responsibility to provide a safe work environment. If they can't afford to do it than they shouldn't be open at those hours.

Many gas stations lock their doors at a certain hour and you can only get service through a window. Convenience stores are in general high-profit enterprises which only pay minimum wage to start with. I can't understand why a 7/11 owner would expect a guy/gal to risk their lives for $8 an hour.

I don't know about your cities but the bars are open here at 10am, and in the winter it gets dark at about 5pm. So, we're excluding women from an awful lot of work if we're trying to protect them from the dark and from drunks.

I was held at gunpoint for $7 bucks an hour. It was four'o'clock on a busy street at rush hour. The same culprits had murdered two men the day before. I theorized that being a woman saved me. There was a woman abducted just up the street from that establishment (from a wedding shop) during daylight hours. If I am remembering correctly she was found tied up in the woods of North Vancouver.

However there is a point of feeling safe. A woman is more likely to feel threatened working alone at night. We've discussed a lot about fear and threat on this forum, and I'd say that it's fair to say women face more violence - sexual or otherwise - then men do.

I have no issues with an employer making sure a woman doesn't walk to her car alone. I have issues with an employer refusing to hire a woman because he doesn't want the "hassle". Not hiring women is not a solution.

Skadie's point seems to be the right one. No "responsible" employer would make a man OR woman work alone in a dangerous environment (gas station, fast food chain, convenience store) at night.

That being said, there are plenty of irresponsible employers out there. But justifying their refusal to hire women because they're irresponsible doesn't really make sense...

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A woman is more likely to feel threatened working alone at night.

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Take a large, muscular, butchy woman, and take a small, scrawny, wimpy man.
Who's more likely to be safe from attacks? That's what I mean about dealing with it case by case. It's a very simple concept.

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Actually AndyS, the man would be safer from attacks. Statistics aside, pound for pound men are much stronger than women. I'm a muscular 165 lbs. A male weighing the same weight could easily overpower me.

I'm not saying I couldn't beat up a wimp, but he'd have to be a hell of a lot smaller than me.

My point is that all of that is beside the point. If the employer is going to hire individuals for a late night shift they should be willing to provide any security necessary, man or woman. The amount of security to reasonably protect a man will reasonably protect a woman as well.

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Not hiring women is not a solution.

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Yay, Rosebuds!

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: skadie ]

Sometimes a couple of the regulars - guys - would stick around while I did all of this, especially if there were any suspicious characters hanging around at closing time, and would wait with me while I hailed a cab. I always had a pint or two on the house for them.

Dontcha know by now that they're a subsidiary of Phillip Morris??

It's not coffee you're buying there, it's Big Brand Tobacco, ladies.

Try a local, indie coffee shop. They're more likely to sell fair trade coffee, more likely to be friendly, more likely to need your coffee cash, and maybe more likely to be equitable and fair employers...although that, I cannot promise.