CNN

The perpetrators have no more right to attack these proponents of Eretz Yisrael than the IDF has in attacking mosques were preachers advocate no Israel.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

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The Mercaz Harav seminary is a well-known centre for Jewish studies and most students are aged between 18 and 30. It is said to be associated with the leadership of the Jewish settler movement in the West Bank.

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quote:

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yes the deaths of these students surely will bring peace and prosperity to Palestinians -Ibelongtonoone

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As much as the shoah and as much as continuing occupations and mushrooming settlments.

What is amazing is now Israel is calling upon the international public opinion to see how poor Israel is victimized.

Yes, the same Israel that a few days ago told the UN to F*** Off (to borrow unionist's apt expression in this context) and told Canada to Shut the F*** Up (an expression I have used) in the above referenced thread.

ETA: Nobody is celebrating this tragedy. Israel is an far from the peace-loving state many would want us to believe. The Israeli leadership sow and Israeli citizens as well as Palestinians reap as we are witnessing: I want to be a cowboy like Daddy!!

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

quote:

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Fronm the BBC website: (...) the al-Manar satellite television station of the Lebanese Hezbollah movement reported that a previously unknown group called the "Jalil Freedom Battalions - the Martyrs of Imad Mughniyeh and Gaza" was behind the shooting.

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The BBC's Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen says the Israeli government will be under immense pressure to respond - and it will, even though it is not known when and where precisely.

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...Nineteen years ago, on the night when news of the United Nations decision in favor of the ReEstablishment of the State of Israel reached us, when the People streamed into the streets to celebrate and rejoice, I could not go out and join in the jubilation. I sat alone and silent; a burden lay upon me. During those first hours I could not resign myself to what had been done. I could not accept the fact that indeed "they have...divided My land." (Joel 4:2)! --- Yes [and now after nineteen years] where is our Hebron - have we forgotten her?! Where is our Shechem, our Jericho, - where?! - Have we forgotten them?! And all that lies beyond the Jordan - each and every clod of earth, every region, hill, valley, every plot of land, that is part of Eretz Israel - have we the right to give up even one grain of the Land of G-d?! --- On that night, nineteen years ago, during those hours, as I sat trembling in every limb of my body, wounded, cut, torn to pieces - I could not then rejoice.

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quote:

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I find this BBC "commentary" horrendous:

quote:The BBC's Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen says the Israeli government will be under immense pressure to respond - and it will, even though it is not known when and where precisely.

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Whether you agree with the Israeli government taking action or not - it strikes me as a FACT not just an opinion that the Israeli will be under very heavy pressure from the Israeli public to respond.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

quote:

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
The problem is both sides belive that "god" is on their side. No making peace with religious fanatics driving the agenda. A quote from this schools original leader.

mercaz harav

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This has nothing to do with god. This has to do with land and resources.

Yes, many people here may be authorizing their actions through an appeal to a higher authority, but these beliefs are not the primary cause of the conflict, the motivating factor is the the theft of Palestinian land by Israeli settlers.

The idea that the sailent issues involved here is religious violence is a Red Herring, that only maintains the fiction that prevents settlement. It only serves the purposes of the most powereful (Isral) against the weak (the Palestinians) as this paradigm reduces the conflict to a matter of religious absolutes, and thus preserves the status quo, since absolutes are absolute.

The religious framing of the issue is one largely introduced into the conflict by Israel, when it was founded as a Jewish state, and for the most part, until it helped found Hamas in Gaza in the 1970's, Arab opponents of the Israeli state have advocated for a secular model for a Palestinian future, and were in fact secular organization such as the PLO.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Dan Gillerman, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, told CNN he saw no connection between Thursday's shooting and Israel's operations in Gaza.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Can we have the title of this thread changed as it does not properly reflect the intent of the OP, and is unecessary sarcastic editorializing of what is obviously a mini-tragedy, on the scale registered against the daily tragedy experienced by Palestinians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
When Israelis kill, it is "taking action". When Palestinians kill, it is "murder in cold blood"...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

thanks for that post as it illustrative of a disingenuous and double standard common on Babble.
If The Israelis (inadvertently) kill innocent civilians by way of a response to aggression (rockets, or fire in general) it is a massacre, murder or state terrorism.
But if a group of Palestinians walk into a seminary/rabbinical school (or restaurant, or disco etc. etc.)and murder (seven) people who are studying that is "resistance" by poor oppressed "freedom fighters." This is an example of the sick perverse reasoning common on Babble. Why not just call a spade a shovel. Premeditated intentional killing is murder.It is especially heinous when it is aimed at sitting ducks.

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CMOT's Dibbler's threads "all hail the Israeli resistance" is a serious effort to catalog the writing and activities of Israel's who oppose the occupation, and dissent from present day government policy.

Ohara's post is a direct stab at another Babbler, and it just sarcastic natstiness, in the face of human suffering. The title should be changed to something more sensitive to the gravity of the event, as opposed to using it as politicized cudgel.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

thanks for that post as it illustrative of a disingenuous and double standard common on Babble.
If The Israelis (inadvertently) kill innocent civilians by way of a response to aggression (rockets, or fire in general) it is a massacre, murder or state terrorism.
But if a group of Palestinians walk into a seminary/rabbinical school (or restaurant, or disco etc. etc.)and murder (seven) people who are studying that is "resistance" by poor oppressed "freedom fighters." This is an example of the sick perverse reasoning common on Babble. Why not just call a spade a shovel. Premeditated intentional killing is murder.It is especially heinous when it is aimed at sitting ducks.

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Did anyone here call it "resistance" or the perpetrators "freedom fighters", Peech?

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

The title should be changed to something more sensitive to the gravity of the event, as opposed to using it as politicized cudgel.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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quote:

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If The Israelis (inadvertently) kill innocent civilians

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Just poor aim, huh? "Oops, we dropped a missile into a civilian area, but we totally had good intentions and we feel really bad about it now..."
161 times?!?

If a 12 year old wove you that kind of yarn, would you buy it, Peech?

The nature of "state terrorism" and of military violence in general is that the vast majority of casualties are never really aimed at. They are simply in the vacinity of various sorts of targets, both hard and "soft". It is a kind of twisted ethical leap that can then claim that the deaths are therefore "accidental". Do you really believe that the people who order Israel's missiles to be fired into Gaza really believe that no one will be killed? Do you have any understanding of military planning departments whatsoever?

Moreover, if they aren't aiming at people, what are they aiming at? Gaza's almost completely dilapidated infrastructure? Seriously, what are they hitting if there are no "military" targets in any conventional sense of the word?

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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The problem is both sides belive that "god" is on their side. No making peace with religious fanatics driving the agenda. A quote from this schools original leader.

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This is not a religious issue. I am afraid you are just perpetuating stereotypes of Muslim fanatics, in vogue these days. It is an issue of colonial occupation met with resistance by colonized people determined to free themselves and free their land. Period.

Isreal is founded on some religious precepts but such is not the case with the Palestinian resistance, if one knows some history.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

Firing of rockets and artillery into populated areas may seem less personal and "inadvertent" than walking into a seminary and killing some people, but it is no less personal to the victims themeselves, and no less intentional.

We don't exempt drivers from being charged with mansluaghter when they cause accidents on the highway because they are drunk or are driving to fast, and "collateral damage" is no different.

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

I wouldn't disagree with that.I just take issue with the comparisons/justifications or rationalizations found here. A true comparison would be between an event like this and the murders of Muslims perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein. Both are despicable no matter whether the victims are Jews or Muslims.

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quote:

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Originally posted by adam stratton:

It is an issue of colonial occupation met with resistance by colonized people determined to free themselves and free their land. Period.
[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

So by murdering people in a Rabbinical college, pizzeria, disco, bus or restaurant (not to mention firing missiles daily into cities populated by civilians) they are "resisting" colonialism?

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Yes. There is a difference between "ends" and "means". Unfortunately, Israeli Propaganda 101 is designed to confuse the two.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

So by murdering people in a Rabbinical college, pizzeria, disco, bus or restaurant (not to mention firing missiles daily into cities populated by civilians) they are "resisting" colonialism?

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And when Palestinians are murdered in their homes, in their streets, in their cafes, in their markets, it's "self defense" or "retaliation"?

quote:

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Originally posted by adam stratton:

This is not a religious issue. I am afraid you are just perpetuating stereotypes of Muslim fanatics, in vogue these days. It is an issue of colonial occupation met with resistance by colonized people determined to free themselves and free their land. Period.

Isreal is founded on some religious precepts but such is not the case with the Palestinian resistance, if one knows some history.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

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quote:

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Eight people were killed and nine others were wounded Thursday evening when a terrorist infiltrated a Jerusalem yeshiva and opened fire.

Three of the wounded in the attack at the Mercaz Harav yeshiva in the Kiryat Moshe neighborhood were serious condition and taken to Hadassah Medical Center in Ein Karem. The other six were lightly hurt and taken to Sha'arei Tzedek Medical Center. One of the wounded is 15 years old. Magen David Adom emergency medical service declared the incident a "multiple casualty event."

Jerusalem District police chief Aharon Franco said the terrorist entered the religious school, pulled out an automatic weapon from his bag and began firing in all directions.
Advertisement
An Israel Defense Forces paratrooper who had his weapon with him engaged the terrorist in a gun battle, and two police detectives who arrived on the scene also fired at the assailant. The terrorist was killed in the incident.

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The attack drew international condemnation, including from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Israel said that the attack would not derail peace talks.

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And in Gaza the "resistance" is celebrated:

quote:

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Gaza: Thousands celebrate Jerusalem attack

Palestinians distribute sweets in celebration of Jerusalem terror attack as Hamas promises 'this is only the beginning'

Gaza's streets filled with joyous crowds of thousands on Thursday evening following the terror attack at a Jerusalem rabbinical seminary in which eight people were killed.
In mosques in Gaza City and northern Gaza, many residents went to perform the prayers of thanksgiving.

Armed men fired in the air in celebration and others passed out sweets to passersby.
Hamas stopped just short of claiming responsibility but issued a statement saying the group "blesses the (Jerusalem) operation. It will not be the last,'' Hamas said in a statement.

An Islamic Jihad spokesman Abu Ahmed told Ynet the blame for the attack lay with Israel for its operations in Gaza. "The responsibility lies with those who killed 130 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them children," he said. "We welcome this heroic act and strengthen the hands of those who carried it out. This is only the first of many responses the Palestinian people are planning."

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[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Peech ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

So by murdering people in a Rabbinical college, pizzeria, disco, bus or restaurant (not to mention firing missiles daily into cities populated by civilians) they are "resisting" colonialism?

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Yeah, those uppity Palestinians. You'd think that after the IDF had just rolled into Gaza and slaughtered over 160 mainly innocent civilians, NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN!

quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

So by murdering people in a Rabbinical college, pizzeria, disco, bus or restaurant (not to mention firing missiles daily into cities populated by civilians) they are "resisting" colonialism?

---

Israel had no compunction executing an unarmed man in a wheel chair, along with a number of bystanders of no known political affiliation on the steps of a Mosque. The Prime Minister ordered it, and watched it all on close circuit tv.

However, our news rarely reports these "human" civilian attributes when discussing Palestinian casualties, but parrots IDF press releases. Palestinian children are killed near a bomb factory, or at an Hamas lair, never described as a nursery, or a playground, or a local youth hangout, or a falafel shop.

Any male under 30 are called "militants" (many are, no doubt), while Israeli civilians are never described as "off-duty" Israeli Defence Force Reserve soldiers, instead they are "students".

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Merowe:
Responsibility for this act of war

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You mean murder.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Israel had no compunction executing an "unarmed man" in a wheel chair, along with a number of bystanders of no known political affiliation
[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

Code for an orchestrator of mass murder and his murdering henchmen? Nice try. But again an example of the perverse and blatantly disingenuous "thought" found here on Planet Babble.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

Code for an orchestrator of mass murder and his murdering henchmen? Nice try. But again an example of the perverse and blatantly disingenuous "thought" found here on Planet Babble.

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Not code for anything. Unarmed non-combatant, excecuted on orders from a secret military tribunal, without a trial.

Can you say "death squad" Peech?

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Peace will only come when both sides reel in their fanatics.

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That's a load, kropotkin1951. First, the notion that there are "two sides". Second, that fanatics can be reeled in by their own side.

Peace will only come when justice is made available to all the people of the region. Until then, there will be elements on both sides who get very angry and do horrendous things.

I have said, for some decades, that the biggest danger facing the Jewish people in the modern world is the state of Israel. Today's events confirm that again.

ETA: Sorry, just noticed this:

quote:

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A pox on both the Jewish and Muslim "clerics" who use god as an excuse for terrorism.

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I'm going to be a little more rude now. Any attempt to paint this as a battle of religions, or religious extremists, is total and utter crap. Why are you making this crap up? The Israel of 1948 and 1967 was not a "religious" government, but they were gangsters and thugs nonetheless. Religion is evil, but you can't pin this on religion. The same goes for the Palestinian resistance. It takes many forms, some of them horrendous acts of terrorism (like today's) which are inexcusable and unjustifiable. But it's not because of 72 virgins or jihad or any of that crap. It's because people are murdered and starved and disenfranchised and disinherited, and they have no powerful allies, and they need to fight back.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
You know other than your usual bombastic way of putting things I agree that the characterization was a little of. Indeed I can't reel in Chuck Strahl or Harpo so how can Palestinians or Israels reel in their fanatics.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Not code for anything. Unarmed non-combatant, excecuted on orders from a secret military tribunal, without a trial.

Can you say "death squad" Peech?

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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I would like to think you are correct but I actually think you are romanticizing. This is a colonial struggle however Hamas does translate to Islamic Resistance Movement. I figure if that is how they define themselves and they received the plurality of votes in an election it must have some resonance with the occupied peoples. The Colonial Resistance Party doesn't seem to be anywhere in the equation. -ropotkin1951

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The struggle pe-dates Hamas. And to give you an example, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (check your history) was not inspired by God or the Qur'an. It was of Marxist Leninist ideology.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]

Then they show an Israeli saying that the street partying by Hamas shows the Palestinians for what they are. Not surprisingly, they don't take a statement from any Palestinians for the report. They just leave that generalization about all Palestinians unanswered.

What a mess.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

I'm not saying that would be enough to overcome the barbaric aggression of the occupation and the targetted assassinations.

[ 06 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Peech may have gone a bit passionate but reading this thread (after being out all night) I understand what led to the anger.

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What led him to say this:

quote:

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But if a group of Palestinians walk into a seminary/rabbinical school (or restaurant, or disco etc. etc.)and murder (seven) people who are studying that is "resistance" by poor oppressed "freedom fighters." This is an example of the sick perverse reasoning common on Babble.

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quote:

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Can you say murderer and orchestrator of mass murder...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peech:

Bull Shit. Can you say murderer and orchestrator of mass murder from his freaking wheel chair?

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Other than some declamatory articles in the press I have nothing to go on. You believe everything in you read in the paper?

I do know there was no trial. I do know that other possibly innocent bystanders were killed. I do know that the reason we have trial in the first place is to clear up any doubts.

From what the BBC reports, it looks like the assailant in this case was from East Jerusalem. He was an Israeli Arab, not a Palestinian from the Territories.

As I understand it, the Israeli Arabs, while they do face a lot of discrimination, aren't nearly as bad off as the Territorial Palestinians.

If that is the case, can anybody really say "well, serves them right" to the same kind of degree?

I mean, yes, the Israelis have been horribly to the Palestinians, and nothing short of accepting the Palestinian right to self-determination is likely to be a remedy for what's been done to them.

Can we say the same for the Arabs living in Israel?

(For the record, I join those who condemn the IDF for killing those 161 Palestinians over the previous 3 days. That was unacceptable and deserves the condemnation of all decent people.)

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

If that is the case, can anybody really say "well, serves them right" to the same kind of degree?"

quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Michelle I understand your anger but this is an emotional issue. Peech may have gone a bit passionate but reading this thread (after being out all night) I understand what led to the anger. That you reacted as you did was in my view overly harsh and inappropriate.

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quote:

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Originally posted by viigan:
Being called an 'Israeli Arab' must be a constant reminder that your land has been invaded and appropriated by others and that you exist as part of a conquered group, continually under the threat of force, and subject to the whim of the conquerors who have the military and political support of the US.

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After about 1975 or so, nobody accepted that being called an "Ulster Catholic" justified everything the more psychotic republican splinter groups did.

I'm not saying the man didn't have serious grievances. But was blowing up a seminary the only way to express them?

And, can we really say that Arabs living in Israel or Palestinians in the Territories gained anything from this particular act?

Resistance, yes. Stupidity, no.

You never win when you make the world think you're uglier than your oppressor.

unionist is right, these people need coherent leadership. This kind of thing is not the way to achieve self-determination.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

quote:

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It isn't for us to determine if the people we are complicit in oprressing are making the right strategic choices. Yesterday's bombing makes the point - with 20 times less loss of lives than have done Israeli soldiers in only three days with their attacks on Gaza Palestinians - that Arabs - and indeed anyone - can feel and express solidarity with Palestinians, regardless of the rhetoric used to dismiss them as terrorists. Isn't it significant that nearly 70% of Israeli Jews feel that their government must deal with Hamas, Palestinians' duly elected representatives. Understanding that the inhuman blockade of Gaza is no guarantee for the security of Israeli Jews, i.e. the cost of integrist hardliners' intolerance, may force the government's hand in ways we can't fathom yet. I am awed by the courage of Palestinians and their allies and by Canadians' cowardice in confronting complicit mainstream media and politicians who disproportionately blame the primary victims in these issues.

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"(IsraelNN.com) The eight Jewish martyr students who were slaughtered Thursday night in a terror attack on the Merkaz HaRav Kook Yeshiva are:

Doron Mehereta, 26, of Ashdod
Ro'i Rote, 18, of Elkanah in Samaria (Shomron)
Yonadav Haim Hirschfeld, 19, of Kokhav HaShachar (Shomron)
Yochai Lipshitz, 18, of the Old City of Jerusalem
Yonatan Yitzchak Eldar, 16, of Shilo (Shomron)
Neriah Cohen, 15, of Jerusalem
Segev Pniel Avichayil, 15, of N'vei Daniel in Gush Etzion
Avraham David Moses, 16, of Efrat, Gush Etzion"

quote:

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Originally posted by pogge:
From the BBC piece Ibelongtonoone linked to (emphasis added):

That suggests to me that there may be a reason this particular seminary was targeted. And incidentally when Hamas was quoted above, the part where they failed to claim responsibility was omitted. Has anyone claimed responsibility?

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He hasn't been giving "implicit support" to mass murder anymore than you and your buddies here have been implicitly supporting the mass murder of Palestinians by the IDF.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It isn't for us to determine if the people we are complicit in oprressing are making the right strategic choices. Yesterday's bombing makes the point - with 20 times less loss of lives than have done Israeli soldiers in only three days with their attacks on Gaza Palestinians - that Arabs - and indeed anyone - can feel and express solidarity with Palestinians, regardless of the rhetoric used to dismiss them as terrorists... I am awed by the courage of Palestinians and their allies and by Canadians' cowardice in confronting complicit mainstream media and politicians who disproportionately blame the primary victims in these issues.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Petsy:
clearly a school targeted solely because they were israeli Jews unarmed and easy targets

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That's an assumption I questioned at the top of the thread and it's one I continue to question. This school may have been targeted because of its association with the settler movement. Or the previous personal association between the gunman and the school may be a significant factor. It's possible that the perpetrator chose this target because he knew the lay of the land and because people at the school knew him and thus he'd have an easier time getting in. It's also possible that he had some personal animus toward his previous employer and that could be at least a factor in this.

quote:

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Originally posted by Petsy:
And are we not able to criticize those who reference such as "strategic choices"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Palestinians are targeted everyday. They are starved, brutalized, and subject to abuses that are both inhuman and criminal precisely because they are not Jews and can never be Israelis because they are not Jews and normally the Israeli apologists defend and rationalize such actions. Now it is a tragedy and a terrible crime because the victims are Jewish?

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I agree that the Palestinian deaths don't garner near enough media coverage in comparison. I think we can all agree that all MSM coverage of the Isreali-Palestinian violence is completely devoid of context, balance, etc.

quote:

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It isn't for us to determine if the people we are complicit in oprressing are making the right strategic choices.

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I have to disagree. This notion rests on the theory of the incommensurability of moral judgements for different people in different situations. It reifies "difference" in a detrimental fashion. And not only do I think this gnaws away at any sense of what it might mean to be collectively and individually "human" the same logic could be turned around to say, "who are we to tell Israel how to defend itself?" Because without an objective measure (which you are denying) how can we tell who is oppressed and oppressor? Israelis certainly see themselves as oppressed and victimised. As do Palestinians.

When it comes to "accidentally" (the biggest bald-faced lie in this entire discourse) blowing up civilians in Gaza or shooting them in Jerusalem, I'm gonna come right out and say that it's wrong. If that means I'm a "coloniser" or a "White Supremacist" or an "antisemite" - as has been suggested elsewhere on Babble - then so be it.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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The intent, however, is to kill as many civilians as possible.

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It is interesting though that Israel officials speak openly of punishing all Palestinians with the euphemism of making their lives "uncomfortable" or of a holocaust against them. But the Palestinian targets, in this case, are not just any civilians. They are civilians engaged in and active in the settler movement which is another way of saying those who steal Palestinian lands and then oppress and humiliate Palestinians daily. They are part and parcel of the occupation. In Pakistan an Islamic school was bombed by the US and that was cheered by the very same people who condemn this action.

It seems some peoples radical, fundamentalist, extremists are another peoples moderates and martyrs.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

And you base that on what? Who've you talked to?
[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:

I base that on images of people cheering in the streets when civilians are killed and when Hamas blesses such murders.

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quote:

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Originally posted by pk34th45:
You Canadians are quite amusing. This entire argument was had and resolved in Europe years ago.

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quote:

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Originally posted by pk34th45:
You Canadians are quite amusing. This entire argument was had and resolved in Europe years ago.

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quote:

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It is true that the number of deaths from these rockets is far less than those by IDF soldiers, however that is due mostly to the nature of Qassam rockets and their unreliability.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
As I understand it, the Israeli Arabs, while they do face a lot of discrimination, aren't nearly as bad off as the Territorial Palestinians.

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And the ones not in prison are better off than the ones in prison.

And the ones still alive and uninjured are better off than the maimed, most of whom are better off than the dead.

They should all form separate parties and organizations based on how they have fared relatively under Israeli aggression, occupation, and discrimination. By all means, they should not unite in a common cause.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I find these distinctions a bit specious.

quote:

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I'm not saying the man didn't have serious grievances. But was blowing up a seminary the only way to express them?

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Of course not. It was a criminal act of murder. His particular "grievances" might have been of interest if he left a homicide/suicide note or if he had survived to be put on trial. I am far more interested in the self-expression of millions than in the psyche of some individual murderer.

quote:

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And, can we really say that Arabs living in Israel or Palestinians in the Territories gained anything from this particular act?

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No we can't. But the applause for such acts in Gaza illustrates clearly how the criminal Israeli regime has reduced this nation to such desperation that any "blow" struck seems better than just sitting back and waiting for more generations to be treated like dirt.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It isn't for us to determine if the people we are complicit in oprressing are making the right strategic choices.

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Generally true - but not when the "choice" involves violation of international law. The Palestinians were wise enough to steer their leadership away from such acts in recent years. If they return to stupid acts of terrorism and murder, they will sit in the same stagnant pool they have been in for the past 70 years.

quote:

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Isn't it significant that nearly 70% of Israeli Jews feel that their government must deal with Hamas, Palestinians' duly elected representatives.

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Yes, and murderous attacks like these give the worst elements the pretext they need to deal only with Abbas.

quote:

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I am awed by the courage of Palestinians and their allies ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by pogge:

That's an assumption I questioned at the top of the thread and it's one I continue to question. This school may have been targeted because of its association with the settler movement.

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Quite possible. From the list of names and residences provided above by Indiana Jones, more than half the murdered students are shown as living as illegal settlers in the Occupied Territories.

ETA: I should add that it is extremely offensive to use the name "Shomron" for Palestinian territory being illegally occupied by Israel, and I don't really think it's appropriate for IJ to be linking to and quoting from an ultra-right ultra-Zionist anti-Arab website. There are less disgusting ways to list the names of the murdered students.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

"With deep shock and sorrow, we announce the abominable murder of our holy and precious students, blossoming cedars at the height of their strength, as they held texts of Torah in their hands. This horrific murder occurred in the heart of Jerusalem, in the great Torah center, in the holy of holies of the nation, the heart of the State of Israel. It is part of the long-running war waged by the Arabs against the very existence of the Nation of Israel and the Torah of Israel.
"These holy boys were felled in the Sanctification of G-d's Name, in the battle for the building of our nation in its Land. They have the status of national martyrs 'in whose presence no creature can stand' [as our Sages teach].

"This monstrous attack must bring about a major and substantial change. We call upon and demand from the Government of Israel to wake up and to fight to the end, without mercy, against the enemies of Israel.

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
And I'm sure the terrorist murderer knew where these students were from before he shot them and that was a consideration. They were Jews. That's all the information he needed.

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You want to turn this into anti-Semitism. You have entered into the killer's mind and decided that he hates Jews. Good for you and good for him both. I'm glad you weren't around to help when my family really was murdered for being Jews. You never quit, not for one second, do you.

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Though i don't think it matters what site it was. I posted it to pay tribute to the yeshiva students massacred and in case anyone wanted to add the victims to their prayers.

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It's a disgusting site, way more aggressive and racist than the Israeli government's policies and of George W. Bush. You don't think it matters?

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Mabhouh said theirs is not a militant organisation, but a "rights-based organisation open to all people from different political affiliations and locations. We have relations with many international trade unions." The building, he said, had come up with Norwegian money.

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The building, he said, had been used to offer health services to tens of thousands of workers and their families, through a workers union health insurance.

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
A statement from the Rosh Yeshiva (Director) of Yeshiva Mercaz HaRav Kook:

"With deep shock and sorrow, we announce the abominable murder of our holy and precious students, blossoming cedars at the height of their strength, as they held texts of Torah in their hands. This horrific murder occurred in the heart of Jerusalem, in the great Torah center, in the holy of holies of the nation, the heart of the State of Israel. It is part of the long-running war waged by the Arabs against the very existence of the Nation of Israel and the Torah of Israel.
"These holy boys were felled in the Sanctification of G-d's Name, in the battle for the building of our nation in its Land. They have the status of national martyrs 'in whose presence no creature can stand' [as our Sages teach].

"This monstrous attack must bring about a major and substantial change. We call upon and demand from the Government of Israel to wake up and to fight to the end, without mercy, against the enemies of Israel.

"This is a terrible crisis! It is one of private mourning and of national mourning. But the Yeshiva will continue its path of study, teaching, growing and disseminating the Torah of Israel in our complete and holy Land of Israel."

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Some of these quotes are quite terrifying, IJ. What does he consider "complete... Israel"? currently occupied lands or additinal land that needs to be conquered?

"fight to the end without mercy"?

How the hell will that solve anything?

Also, do ya think that, just maybe, this statement is a clue to the reason behind the gunman's motive?

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: Jingles ]

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Originally posted by unionist:
[QB]
You want to turn this into anti-Semitism. You have entered into the killer's mind and decided that he hates Jews. Good for you and good for him both. I'm glad you weren't around to help when my family really was murdered for being Jews. You never quit, not for one second, do you
QB]

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Yeah, I think when someone walks into a Yeshiva and opens fire and tries to kill as many of the (all Jewish) students as possible, it's a pretty fair assumption that the person hates Jews. That doesn't even require anything as complex as "getting into the killer's mind."

When the guy at L'Ecole Polytechnique massacred a group of women, it wasn't all that unreasonable to assume that the person ahted women.

When the KKK firebombed an all-black church in Birmingham, Alabama, we can be pretty sure that the killers hated blacks. That's not "turning this into racism" anymore than pointing out that someone who just murdered Jews hates Jews is "turning this into anti-Semitism." It is what it is.

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:
"fight to the end without mercy"?

How the hell will that solve anything?

Do you agree with these quotes?

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
So, no, I won't quit. Not for a second. Not when tehre are people trying to kill us.

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The tragedy is that you won't quit until all of "us" are dead.

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Originally posted by unionist:

The tragedy is that you won't quit until all of "us" are dead.

You are truly disgusting and you have no place whatsoever on this board. Go join the IDF and put your money where your mouth is.

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What the hell are you talking about? yeah, unionist, it's really "disgusting" to condemn someone for murdering a bunch of young students in cold blood. And how dare anyone suggest that someone who massacres Jews might be an anti-Semite.

Let me ask you: are you willing to say that the guy who massacred women in Montreal was a sexist? How is that any different from condemning this murderer as an anti-Semite?

I don't see why you need to turn this into a diatribe agaisnt Israel or politicize everything. 8 young fellow Jews were killed. More are in the hospital fighting for their lives. It's a massive tragedy. Not an opportunity to score political points.

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
They're not my quotes. They're the quotes of the Rosh Yeshiva. I posted them cause they're news. He's the official spokesperson for the institution affected. It wouldn't be unreasonable to post a statement by the president of Virginia Tech after that massacre or of the principal for Columbine after the massacre there.

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Not when tehre are people trying to kill us.

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"Us" being the indicator of nationalist delusion. The so-called "collective imagination" of a nation; emphasis on "imagination". Are you under direct threat, Indiana Jones? Who's trying to kill you?

And would it not be a greater ethical move to risk solidarity with all people being killed unjustly? How is the threat to your "Jewish" life any different than the threat to an Arab's life in Gaza?

Coming up with the right answer to that question is what unionist is talking about.

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by unionist:

Go join the IDF and put your money where your mouth is.

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
I don't see why you need to turn this into a diatribe agaisnt Israel or politicize everything.

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:

Fair enough. I was just wondering whether you agreed or not.

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Originally posted by unionist:

What do you mean, "fair enough"???? He didn't even answer your question! Of course he agrees with the scummy quotes.

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I am relatively new so I am trying to be as "benefit of the doubtish" as possible.

By "Fair enough", I meant that yes, it is fair to say that it is comparable to posting a comment by the pres of Virginia Tech after the shootings there. However - my following question was meant to imply that he still hasn't answered my question. (and like you, I assume that the answer is yes, he does agree with those disgusting comments).

ETA: I just noticed that I am no longer labelled a "recent" rabble-rouser. So I guess I am no longer new

[ 07 March 2008: Message edited by: Ghislaine ]

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Originally posted by Ghislaine:
So I guess I am no longer new

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Originally posted by unionist:

Welcome to the old-timers' club.

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