babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » current events   » international news and politics   » Bush pushes Kosova "independence"

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Bush pushes Kosova "independence"
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 10 June 2007 12:30 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Missile defence shield in Poland and the Czech Republic - sabre-rattling about "democracy" (a word he's still working on) in Russia - Bush now feels another little war in the Balkans would be in order:

Bush pushes Kosova independence

quote:
U.S. President George W. Bush said Sunday there's no need for "endless dialogue" on the future status of the breakaway Serbian province of Kosovo, saying "the time is now" to move toward independence. [...]

"The question is whether there's going to be endless dialogue on a subject that we've already made up our mind on," Bush said.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 10 June 2007 12:48 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How big is the pro indipendance movement in Kosovo?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11865

posted 10 June 2007 02:36 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"The question is whether there's going to be endless dialogue on a subject that we've already made up our mind on," Bush said.



WE Made up our mind on?
WTF are "we"?

Thank you for bringing this to attention, unionist. Balkans were actually high on Bush admin agenda pre 9/11(i.e Macedonia).

Its strange that he is applying pressure there right now.
As for the independence sentiment, its strong, and KLA units very militarized.
There are few minorities left there now, after the riots. Maybe 4-5% of Kosovo population.


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 10 June 2007 02:43 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Thank you for bringing this to attention, unionist. Balkans were actually high on Bush admin agenda pre 9/11(i.e Macedonia).

Why?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11865

posted 10 June 2007 04:39 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, youve made me dig really deep in antiwar.com's archives
I remember that just few days before 9/11, Justin Raimondo's articles were dedicated to US imperialism in Macedonia. I didnt read them all thoroughly.
I guess, to rephrase it, The Balkans/Macedonia were high on Neocon's agenda pre 9/11.
here's one of these articles, dated 8/24/2001:
Why are we in Macedonia? Raimondo

Basically, I think that back then, the neoconnery was in a dillema of sorts.
They were divided on whether to continue asserting Imperialism in the Balkans, post Milosevic, or turn towards the Middle East.
McCain promised to send "boots on the ground" into Serbia in 2000 campaign,for example

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: BetterRed ]


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
blake 3:17
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10360

posted 11 June 2007 11:05 AM      Profile for blake 3:17     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Serbia attacks US for backing Kosovan breakaway


Mark Tran and agencies
Monday June 11, 2007
Guardian Unlimited


Serbia today condemned US support for Kosovo's independence after George Bush expressed impatience with foot-dragging over the fate of the breakaway Serbian province.
On national television, the Serbian prime minister, Vojislav Kostunica, attacked American support for Kosovan Albanians who are seeking to sever ties with Serbia.

"America must find another way to show its affection and love for the Albanians, without offering them Serb territories," Mr Kostunica said.

"Serbia is rightfully outraged at the American policies on the issue of Kosovo."


Full story.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 11 June 2007 01:03 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just DO NOT understand why the US can't figure out that 'freedom' does not come from outside, it comes from within.

Kosovo has had an independance movement for sometime now (along with the 132 other area's of the former Yugoslavia), how serious they are is something else entirely.

I think mainly this is stemming from how hard Serbia is trying to hold onto the different area's, it's causing Kosovo to backlash and be more aggressive on independance.

Anyway, whatever the reason, whatever the desire, as long as people aren't dying, we have no reason to be involved. Let's allow the people of Kosovo to decide their own fate without interfering shall we?


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 11 June 2007 03:29 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I presume that most Kosovars would support independence from Serbia. But that could be settled by referendum, if there were any doubt on the question.

The only instance in which others would have a right to become involved would be if Serbia would not permit such a referendum to occur.

That is because there is an international right to self determination by referendum.

"(1) All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm


However, I see nothing in the behaviour of Serbia which would remotely justify Bush's comments. He should butt out.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 11 June 2007 03:37 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
I presume that most Kosovars would support independence from Serbia. But that could be settled by referendum, if there were any doubt on the question.

The only instance in which others would have a right to become involved would be if Serbia would not permit such a referendum to occur.


And I tend to think not even then. I'm so tired of seeing wars waged against countries under the guise of bringing them "freedom".

As a wise filmmaker once said, When tens of thousands aren't willing to shed their own blood to remove a dictator, that should be the first clue that they aren't going to be willing participants when you decide you're going to do the liberating for them. The only way a war of liberation has a chance of succeeding is if the oppressed people being liberated have their own citizens behind them -- and a group of Washingtons, Jeffersons, Franklins, Gandhis and Mandellas leading them.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 11 June 2007 03:43 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't mention invasion. I said others would have a right to get "involved" when an internationally protected right is violated.

Involvement can take many forms short of military action.

Most importantly, sanctions can weaken repressive regimes.

I don't believe that the test should be: "Can the minority overthrow the majority dictatorship without help?" I don't think that way of thinking gives any weight to the right. It becomes a paper right.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 11 June 2007 03:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I definitely agree with that. I have no problem with putting international pressure on a country short of military force.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
siren
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7470

posted 12 June 2007 12:04 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh sure, independence; just don't trust them with your watch, eh?

quote:

U.S. denies reports Bush's watch stolen in Albania

TIRANA (Reuters) - Reports that U.S. President George W. Bush had his wristwatch stolen while shaking hands with Albanians on his weekend visit are false, Albanian police and the U.S. embassy said on Tuesday.

"The story is untrue and the president did not lose his watch," a spokesman for the embassy in Tirana said.

Some newspapers, television stations and websites carried reports that Bush's watch vanished on Sunday when he was greeted by ecstatic crowds in Fushe Kruje, outside the capital Tirana.

"It is not true," said Albania's police director, Ahmet Prenci.

Photographs showed Bush, surrounded by five bodyguards, putting his hands behind his back so one of the bodyguards could remove his watch.


Weird.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 13 June 2007 10:20 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, I haven't had any time to follow this up, so I need to ask what Chancellor Bush is hinting at here: another atrocious military invasion to kill hundreds of thousands completely in violation of international law? Followed by another fraudulent US-military-run "election" of puppets? Followed by the rape of Kosovo assets (or what's left of them) by US corporations (especially those with direct ties to Bush and the Republican Party)? And lemmie guess: more CIA-sponsored torture camps, etc.

Where have we seen this before?

And I'm not sure, with due respect, what all those Albanian folks have to cheer about. exactly what has the US government done for them, except push its global poverty-inducing liberty-destroying austerity ecology-damaging measures as prescribed by the WTO and IMF/World Bank?

Totalitarianism has truly gone global.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 14 June 2007 06:02 AM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:
And I'm not sure, with due respect, what all those Albanian folks have to cheer about.

I believe that they credit the United States (not George Bush in particular) with substantially increasing the probability that Kosovo will gain independence from Serbia.

As for the independence of Kosovo, I hope that they hold a referendum first. The pro-independence vote would win by a landslide, I reckon. And no force would have to be used to wrest this independence from Serbia: Kosovo, while technically a Serb province, is run by the U.N. with U.N. troops, etc. Serbia would literally have to invade its own province (since there are no Serb forces there now) in order to forestall independence if declared by the U.N. after a referendum.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 14 June 2007 06:06 AM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On a related note, I have a couple of Serb friends in Toronto, and their view is that the best thing for Serbia would be to let Kosovo go.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 14 June 2007 06:17 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I believe that they credit the United States (not George Bush in particular) with substantially increasing the probability that Kosovo will gain independence from Serbia.

OK, I can see that--given the twisted history there. Too bad, though, because anything the US government gets involved with there may lead Kosovo out of Serbia but certainly not independence, since whatever public assets or local successful business they may have now will be gone in a New York minute.

quote:
As for the independence of Kosovo, I hope that they hold a referendum first. The pro-independence vote would win by a landslide, I reckon. And no force would have to be used to wrest this independence from Serbia:

If the majority really want to separate, that's fine, and a free and fair referendum would be the way to decide it. But again, that's the problem when the US overlords get involved. Sadly, referenda, like elections, can be rigged, and the US government has a long history of doing this to people.

quote:
On a related note, I have a couple of Serb friends in Toronto, and their view is that the best thing for Serbia would be to let Kosovo go.

Probably a good idea, again, if, and only if, that's what Kosovars generally want.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 14 June 2007 06:41 AM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agreed ... if and only if that is what Kosovars really want.

I tend to think that, if independence is declared, it should only be done on the condition that UN troops remain to protect the few Serbs, Rroma, Bosniaks (Slavic Muslims), and other non-Albanians remaining in Kosovo.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 14 June 2007 07:54 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know if the 'ethnic tensions' are anywhere near where they were, I don't think there'd be that much of a problem.

Again, our involvement should be limited to only what they ask for, nothing imposed on them.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
inkameep
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3357

posted 14 June 2007 05:55 PM      Profile for inkameep     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
That is because there is an international right to self determination by referendum.

"(1) All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."


It's not that cut and dried. Article 2(4) of the UN Charter guarantees the territorial integrity of Member states. The Republic of Serbia is a Member state.

Kosovo’s independence could set a precedent for other parts of Europe. Russia has said that if the Western powers violate the territorial integrity of Serbia, then Russia will push for the formal secession of Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgia. Like Kosovo, Abkhazia is already a de facto independent state.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 15 February 2008 03:58 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
With their unfailing passion for the inconsequential and their knack for doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, NATO leaders appear determined to carve the province of Kosovo out of Serbia and grant it "independence." That they lack the physical, legal and moral power to bestow independent statehood to a part of a state that is neither a member of the E.U. nor NATO appears only to have emboldened them to use this issue to demonstrate Western resolve. Just as in the 1990s, and just as erroneously, a self-righteous West has seized on the Balkans as an opportunity to parade before the world in the unfamiliar guise of champion of democracy and national self-determination, and protector of Muslims.
Source

quote:
Last August, as the long round of sham negotiations got underway, Slobodan Samardzic, the Serbian minister for Kosovo, said that a Kosovo state created with the U.S. support "would only serve the interests of America and the local mafia clans." Samardzic belongs to the younger, pro-Western generation that tended to attribute the West's hostility to Serbia to Slobodan Milosevic. But Milosevic has been gone for years, and Western policy remains unchanged.

Samardzic said that NATO plans to make Kosovo virtually its own territory, "a satellite, an army barracks state on foreign territory". The main source of power in Kosovo would be the huge U.S. military base, Camp Bondsteel, built immediately after NATO occupied the territory in June 1999, without asking permission from anyone.

As the latest round of sham negotiations ended, Serbian prime minister Vojislav Kostunica said events prove that the real reason NATO bombed Serbia in 1999 was in order to conquer Kosovo as a "NATO puppet state".


Source

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
viigan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14131

posted 16 February 2008 10:06 PM      Profile for viigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The independence movement in Kosovo was another CIA cook-up. They KLA were funded, armed and supplied by the US well before the events that led to the bombing of the Serbs.
The dismantling of Yugoslavia and the subsequent US meddling in the area has destabilized all the Balkan countries that are facing mounting ethnic tensions. FYROM, or Macedonia as recognized by the US, lays claim to territory well into northern Greece as well as the second largest city in the country, Salonika, and universally accepted Greek history as its own. (Apparently, they claim that Alexander the Great was a Slav).
The Albanians, bolder with American support are also laying claims to parts of Northern Greece (Epirus), as well as parts of FYROM. The region has become a serious powder keg with multiple fuses, even though the situation is largely unreported here.
It remains to be seen how the Turks will affect the situation, considering their ties to a considerably Muslim Albania, and their animosity toward their Greek neighbours who they have repeatedly threatened with war, and still occupy half of the Greek-speaking island of Cyprus.
Of course there is Russia to consider as well, and the whole area is starting to feel like a battleground between American intentions in Eastern Europe and the Balkans, and Russia's ability to thwart them.

From: here | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 17 February 2008 10:46 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kosovo today made a unilateral declaration of independence, as expected, with the backing of the 17,000 NATO troops stationed there.

Most EU countries are falling all over themselves to recognize this UDI, even though it is not legal under international law.

Russia has refused to recognize Kosovan independence, and will block any attempt by it to join the United Nations. Too bad they didn't find a spine when they passed Security Council Resolution 1244 which all but gave its blessing to Kosovan independence back in 1999.

Meanwhile breakaway states in the territory of the former Soviet Union are hoping to use Kosovo as a precedent for recognition of their unilateral declarations of independence made in the 1990's. Georgia's breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Azerbaijan's rebel Nagorno-Karabakh region and Moldova's Transdniestria all declared independence but have not received international recognition. Don't hold your breath on that one.

[ 17 February 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 17 February 2008 11:56 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
I presume that most Kosovars would support independence from Serbia. But that could be settled by referendum, if there were any doubt on the question.

Your support of national referenda is interesting since you opposed Venezuela's close call for constitutionalizing socialism. Canada has enjoyed just three national referenda since 1898, and phony majority governments here have made sweeping changes to the way our sovereign economic decision-making was handed to international capital and marauding corporations.

China, Russia, India, and South Africa are among the countries opposed to the Kosovo's declaration of independence and cite UN Resolution 1244 of 1999 which recognises Kosovo as part of Serbia.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
adam stratton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14803

posted 17 February 2008 12:12 PM      Profile for adam stratton        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Kosovo today made a unilateral declaration of independence, as expected, with the backing of the 17,000 NATO troops stationed there. -M. Spector

I wish they have specified from whom they became independent. They became independent, period, is hardly the case.

[ 18 February 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]


From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
viigan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14131

posted 17 February 2008 03:16 PM      Profile for viigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Spain, Bulgaria, Greece and Japan also have no current plans of recognizing Kosovo, but will it matter in the face of American and Western European recognition?
Turkey also plans to accord Kosovo recognition, but I imagine it's an uncomfortable situation for them. On the one hand they weaken the strategic position of their traditional Greek enemies by effectively seperating them from their natural allies, Serbia, and addind another claimant to Greek territory on her northern borders. It also sets a precedent that the Turkish minority of Thrace can take advantage of with political support from Turkey, but on the other hand this formal recognition can bite them in the ass when they try to suppress the Kurds within and around their borders.

Can anyone shed some more light on how Russia might react to all this? Will they back down again with more ineffective protests, that led to the dismemberment of Yugoslavia in the first place?


From: here | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 17 February 2008 05:37 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Balkan Insight is a news source I have always found interesting. People interested in Kosovo in particular, and the Balkans in general, might take some interest in the articles there.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 17 February 2008 09:31 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kosovo government linked to organized crime
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
viigan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14131

posted 18 February 2008 08:44 AM      Profile for viigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the link Fidel, it provided a lot of insight on the situation in the Balkans. I'm afraid Martha's link was more in line with the official media whitewash that has been dominant in the Western news agencies.
But thanks anyway Martha.

After sifting through some of the articles provided in Fidel's link I find myself wondering if there is any media outlet here in the West that doesn't provide information that has been spun beyond recognition? More importantly, who is directing the farce and what does that really mean in the context of Canadian and American democracy? If our views can be skewed to such a degree, who's to say that the issues we debate daily, and vote on are 'real', and not webs of disinformation that we are trapped in while successive governments continue the same policies regardless of their stated political orientation?

[ 18 February 2008: Message edited by: viigan ]


From: here | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
sanizadeh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14787

posted 18 February 2008 08:52 AM      Profile for sanizadeh        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting to see that radical far left and radical far right are both equally opposed to Kosovo independence. I guess the fact that it is a new Muslim state in the heart of Europe makes many uncomfortable.
From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13921

posted 18 February 2008 08:57 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sanizadeh:
Interesting to see that radical far left and radical far right are both equally opposed to Kosovo independence. I guess the fact that it is a new Muslim state in the heart of Europe makes many uncomfortable.

I can't speak for the "radical far right" but that isn't the problem for the "radical far left".


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
viigan
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14131

posted 18 February 2008 09:13 AM      Profile for viigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"I guess the fact that it is a new Muslim state in the heart of Europe makes many uncomfortable"

Where have you seen opposition to the independence of Kosovo that is based on the religious views of Albanians?


From: here | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
sanizadeh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14787

posted 18 February 2008 09:26 AM      Profile for sanizadeh        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by viigan:
"I guess the fact that it is a new Muslim state in the heart of Europe makes many uncomfortable"

Where have you seen opposition to the independence of Kosovo that is based on the religious views of Albanians?


That statement applied to the right. I guess the left oppose it because Serbia used to be a socialist state, right?

90% of the people in a region want independence. That's pretty much a done deal these days. If the French Canadians in Quebec had such support for their referendum there would be a republic of Quebec by now.


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 18 February 2008 09:38 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sanizadeh:
90% of the people in a region want independence. That's pretty much a done deal these days. If the French Canadians in Quebec had such support for their referendum there would be a republic of Quebec by now.

We've had a grand total of three national referenda in Canada since 1898. No referendum on NAFTA, and no sign of a plebiscite on SPP or deep integration with the U.S. in sight.

A poll in 2006 said half of Canadians were in favour of nationalising the oil. And that was without an expensive federal ad-scam campaign to promote the idea. But our two old line, Warshington-friendly parties would never dream of trusting Canadians with direct democracy. Political conservatism in the English-speaking countries clings to power by an obsolete electoral system and phony majority rule.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
sanizadeh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14787

posted 18 February 2008 09:47 AM      Profile for sanizadeh        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

We've had a grand total of three national referenda in Canada since 1898. No referendum on NAFTA, and no sign of a plebiscite on SPP or deep integration with the U.S. in sight.

A poll in 2006 said half of Canadians were in favour of nationalising the oil. And that was without an expensive federal ad-scam campaign to promote the idea. But our two old line, Warshington-friendly parties would never dream of trusting Canadians with direct democracy. Political conservatism in the English-speaking countries clings to power by an obsolete electoral system and phony majority rule.


Point taken. In that case, I suppose you fully support the right of Kosovarians to declare independence through referendums?


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 18 February 2008 10:05 AM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The idea that Thaçi has links to organized crime is hardly surprising. It's a brutal and sad fact that many political figures have quite direct links to organized crime. Milošević's regime was up to its neck in organized crime. The killing of Zoran Đinđić (see also here) brought some of these connections to light. Here's a more recent story about these connections.

Fidel's link is interesting, but I was a little surprised that a research article would quote Wikipedia.

Whatever the biases of Balkan Insight, I have found their reporting to be fair and balanced. They have fairly extensive teams of journalists on the ground all over the former Yugoslavia. One of their bloggists, Tim Judah, sadly notes, "Yesterday I went to the press conference of Hashim Thaci, the prime minister who waxed eloquent about protecting the rights of minorities and the Kosovo Serbs. This, clearly had three audiences. Albanians (ok) the world (it made headlines,) and Kosovo's Serbs. Then, one of them Zivojin Rakocevic of KiM Radio in Caglavica, which is part of one of the big Serbian enclaves got up to point out that none of the Serbian journalists present had understood a word since it had not occurred to anyone to provide translation in Serbian. If that is not a symbolic of something – people talking at each other, not to each other, then I don't know what is."


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 18 February 2008 10:06 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sanizadeh:

Point taken. In that case, I suppose you fully support the right of Kosovarians to declare independence through referendums?


Perhaps. Just as soon as the U.S. or Canada have national referenda on electoral reform - reversing or even a citizens' approval for NAFTA - nationalising the oil - scrapping the oil boys club, the very undemocratic senate in Ottawa - or any of the above as a show of federal support for direct democracy by referenda in our own countries, the same countries which orchestrated the breakup of former Yugoslavia.

And there are other options besides partitioning a country recognized by the UN in 1999 into a weaker republic ruled by corrupt drug-dealing terrorists. There could be a referendum to recognize Kosovo as a distinct province within Serbia itself.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 18 February 2008 10:48 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sanizadeh:
If the French Canadians in Quebec had such support for their referendum there would be a republic of Quebec by now.
It wouldn't be recognized under international law without the ROC's blessing.

You could hold referendums in Chechnya and Nagorno-Karabakh and get 90% or more support for independence, but their independence wouldn't be recognized internationally by most nations.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13921

posted 18 February 2008 11:07 AM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):

Whatever the biases of Balkan Insight, I have found their reporting to be fair and balanced.

In that case, they have achieved the impossible and are unique in the world


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3322

posted 18 February 2008 01:17 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[IMG]
View Larger Map[/IMG]

The reason for all this.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11463

posted 18 February 2008 01:50 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Would it too hard on your style to unpack this pithy comment? I can't navigate this photograph easily or read all the text in the boxes.

[ 18 February 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 18 February 2008 01:53 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Try this: Camp Bondsteel
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13921

posted 18 February 2008 03:15 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Try this: Camp Bondsteel

It will be interesting to watch Harper squirm over this one: caught between loyalty to his American masters and the implications for Quebec independence of recognizing the sovereignty of Kosovo. I know it's obvious but I enjoy it so much I just had to say it

ETA: I notice that Spain has decided it's more important to oppose independence for the Basques than to placate the Americans.

[ 18 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11463

posted 18 February 2008 03:52 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When he does recognize Kosovo, can I quote you that this means he acknowledges that Quebec is fully entitled to separate?

Seriously, those of you who read French can look into German journalist Jürgen Elsässer's analysis of the USA move as an attempt to destabilize Russia:

quote:
Les États-Unis ont mis au point un processus de déclaration unilatérale d’indépendance du Kosovo, le 17 février prochain, suivi de sa reconnaissance par une centaine d’États. Ce faisant, non seulement ils admettent que l’opération de l’OTAN en 1999 était une guerre de conquête, mais ils ouvrent la porte à toutes les revendications séparatistes dans le monde. Et c’est bien le but, puisque il s’agit pour eux de provoquer par onde de choc la désintégration de la Fédération de Russie. Un jeu dangereux, dénonce Jürgen Elsässer, qui est de nature à déstabiliser toute l’Europe.

L'indépendance du Kosovo est la mèche d'un baril de poudre

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13921

posted 18 February 2008 04:00 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
When he does recognize Kosovo, can I quote you that this means he acknowledges that Quebec is fully entitled to separate?

Well, I think that would be one of the implications. However, if he acknowledges it, I'll eat my toque! But I'm pretty sure American interests will have the upper hand in his mind.

[ 18 February 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 19 February 2008 07:26 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why Canada should not recognize Kosovo

The article is by James Bissett, former Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia.

quote:
Bissett: Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence should not be recognized by Canada. It has not been authorized by the United Nations and is therefore in violation of international law, the United Nations Charter and the Helsinki Final Accords. In addition, UN resolution 1244, which ended the bombing of Serbia, reaffirms Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo.

The basic principles of territorial integrity and state sovereignty have governed the relations between states since the treaty of Westphalia in 1648. While they have been violated many times in the intervening years, usually by acts of aggression by dictators, they remain the essential components of international law.


The entire short article is worth reading.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tom Vouloumanos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3177

posted 19 February 2008 10:25 AM      Profile for Tom Vouloumanos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is an excellent interview with Tariq Ali posted on Z regarding the power politics surrounding the Yugoslav tragedy.

This interview puts the partition of Kosovo from Serbia within the larger context of the dismantlement of Yugoslavia.


From: Montréal QC | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 21 February 2008 09:52 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Scores of protesters broke into the U.S. embassy in Belgrade on Thursday and set rooms on fire in protest at Kosovo's independence, before riot police moved in and dispersed the crowd.

Police had earlier been nowhere to be seen at the building which had been closed and boarded up after rioters stoned it earlier in the week.

Black smoke billowed out of the embassy. Papers and chairs were thrown out of the windows, with doors wedged in the window frames and burning.

One protester climbed up to the first floor of the building, ripped the Stars and Stripes off its pole and briefly put up a Serbian flag in its place.

Some protesters jumped up and down on the embassy balcony, holding up a Serbian flag as the crowd below of about 1,000 people cheered them on, shouting "Serbia, Serbia."


http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL2174715620080221


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11463

posted 21 February 2008 09:59 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jürgen Elsässer (hyperlinked above) makes the point that this dynamic of saber-rattling between superpowers - here, the U.S. and Germany vs. the Soviet Republic - over what seems like a local struggle in Yugoslavia is exactly what started World War I (with an incident in Sarajevo).
Now wouldn't THAT guarantee a Republican victory this Fall?

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 22 February 2008 11:25 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Friday, Russia -- which has not recognized Kosovo's sovereignty -- said it has not ruled out using force to resolve the dispute over the territory if NATO forces breach the terms of their U.N. mandate.

"If the EU works out a single position or if NATO steps beyond its mandate in Kosovo, these organizations will be in conflict with the U.N., and then I think we will also begin operating under the assumption that in order to be respected, one needs to use force," Moscow's ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin said, in comments carried by Russia's Interfax news agency.

A spokesman for Russia's Foreign Ministry warned that Kosovo's declaration would have a "negative impact."

"What happened in Belgrade yesterday is regrettable. But we would want to draw your attention to the fact that the forces that supported the unilateral recognition of Kosovo's independence should have realized the effects of the move," spokesman Mikhail Kamynin told Interfax.

Russia, which has close ties with Serbia, has refused to recognize Kosovo's sovereignty, triggering a terse diplomatic standoff with the U.S. and several EU member states including the UK, France and Germany which have already recognized its independent status.

The U.S. Ambassador to NATO said Washington was "very disappointed" by Russia's position on Kosovo, The Associated Press reported.


http://tinyurl.com/ywxbj8


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 23 February 2008 06:05 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Separatists in Indian Kashmir said Saturday that Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence has bolstered their resolve to achieve the same status for the disputed Himalayan territory.
quote:
Kosovo's independence declaration has "strengthened our resolve to achieve freedom for Kashmir," leading Kashmiri separatist Shabir Shah told AFP.

India is wary of recognising Kosovo as an independent state because of its potential implications for Kashmir, racked by a nearly two-decade revolt against New Delhi's rule that has left more than 43,000 people dead.

Nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan, which have fought two wars for control of the Muslim-majority region, each hold part of the territory but claim it in full.

"Kosovo's independence is an indicator that struggles based on truth and justice never fail," Shah said, adding the day is not "far when Kashmiris will be free."

Shah, 54, who heads the pro-independence Democratic Freedom Party, is dubbed the "Nelson Mandela" of Kashmir after spending more than 20 years in Indian jails.

"The world community, the European Union in particular, should play a Kosovo-like role in getting the dispute resolved" in Kashmir, added Yasin Malik, chairman of pro-Independence Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front.

Both Malik and Shah want India and Pakistan to withdraw from Kashmir to pave the way for its independence.



Kashmiris get boost from Kosovo independence:
quote:
HELD SRINAGAR: The unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo last Sunday has bolstered the resolve of the people of Kashmir to achieve the same status, the leaders of independence movements said here on Saturday. Kashmiri leader Syed Ali Geelani said he was delighted by Kosovo's independence proclamation. He said: "Creation of a Muslim state within the European heartland has strengthened our resolve to achieve our right to self-determination." Geelani wants Indian Kashmir to break away from India and join the neighbouring Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The movement in held Kashmir has left more than 43,000 people dead during the last six decades.

Note the difference between "Indian Kashmir" and "held Kashmir."
Yasin calls on international community to play Kosovo-like role to resolve Kashmir issue:
quote:
Separatists in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) said on Saturday that Kosovo’s unilateral declaration of independence had bolstered their resolve to achieve the same status for the disputed Himalayan territory.

Same AFP story, edited in Pakistan to say "Indian-held Kashmir (IHK)" not "Indian Kashmir."

Freedom fighters in Indian Held Kashmir said Saturday that Kosovo’s unilateral declaration of independence has bolstered their resolve to achieve the same status for the disputed Himalayan territory.

quote:
Kosovo’s independence declaration has “strengthened our resolve to achieve freedom for Kashmir,” a prominent Kashmiri leader Shabbir Shah told AFP.

Same AFP story, this time edited in Pakistan to say "Freedom fighters in Indian Held Kashmir" not "Separatists in Indian Kashmir," and "prominent Kashmiri leader Shabbir Shah" not "leading Kashmiri separatist Shabir Shah."

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 23 February 2008 06:08 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, this will go well.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 23 February 2008 06:44 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Oh, this will go well.
Superb timing, too. The most likely way for a new Pakistan government to unite the country while cracking down on the Taliban is to shift the focus back to Kashmir, which is where Bin Laden's Pakistan friends were focussed before the attack on the twin towers.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
laine lowe
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13668

posted 23 February 2008 09:09 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An interesting look at the politics at play from ISN Security Watch (Nov. 2006):

South Ossetia, Kosovo and Sustainability


From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 25 February 2008 08:12 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Serbia intends to rule parts of Kosovo where "loyal citizens" still look to Belgrade for government, Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica said on Monday.

In a fresh challenge to the West, which backs Kosovo's independence, and the European Union in particular, which is due to take over from the United Nations as Kosovo's supervisor, he said Serbia would do all in its power to exert its authority.

"Serbia will do everything to implement its jurisdiction and state prerogatives for all loyal citizens in Kosovo -- Serbs and non-Albanians," Kostunica said.

"There cannot be normalisation of relations with the states that recognised Kosovo independence until they annul their decision," he added. "Protest rallies will not stop as long as illegal independence is not annulled."


http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL25511575


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 01 March 2008 10:23 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The action of the U.S. and the E.U. in stripping Serbia of Serbs' historic homeland is both a crime and a blunder. It is a crime, first, because no one, not even the U.N., has a legal right to dismember a sovereign state, and second, because the narrative used to justify the illegal action is a lie. The stated justification is that the Serbs, under Slobodan Milosevic, were ethnically cleansing Kosovo of Albanians. As German courts have established, there was no ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo until NATO started bombing Serbia. After NATO launched its unprovoked attack on Serbia (Mrs. Albright's splendid little war), the Serbs dumped the Albanians on NATO's doorstep as a vast logistics spunge. That wasn't terribly nice, but when you are a very small country fighting all of NATO, you do what you can. Ironically, after Serbia was forced to capitulate when Russia withdrew her support, NATO blithely presided over the ethnic cleansing of two-thirds of Kosovo's Serbs by the Albanians. Source

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 08 March 2008 08:42 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
PM dissolves Serbia's government

He accused pro-Western ministers of failing to support his efforts to preserve Kosovo as part of Serbia.

"There was no united will to clearly and loudly state that Serbia can continue its path toward the EU only with Kosovo," Kostunica said.

The new elections could determine whether Serbia continues toward the EU or takes a more isolationist approach reminiscent of Yugoslavia in the 1990s under the late strongman Slobodan Milosevic.

"The government will function in a reduced capacity until the elections are held," Kostunica said.


Serbia, which considers the territory its historic and religious heartland, has rejected Kosovo's move as illegal under international law.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca