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Author Topic: Tony Blair converts to Catholicism
aka Mycroft
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posted 22 December 2007 07:19 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Blair converts to Catholicism

I'm not particularly concerned about the denominational affiliation of political leaders as long as they don't attempt to impose their faith on others (and don't believe that the apocalypse is a good thing and that they can and should help bring it about) and Blair's affinity to Catholicism has been rumoured for some time.

I do think it's a shame, though, that Blair waited until after he left office to convert (as he's been attending Catholic mass since at last 1996 his conversion is hardly an overnight thing). There has never been a Catholic PM in the UK, a legacy of institutional anti-Catholic bias perhaps, and there are still completely anachronistic ties between the British state and the Church of England. The PM, for instance, essentially appoints Anglican bishops including the Archbishop of Canterbury (technically, he sends a list to the Queen who makes the appointment but the Queen, by convention, always "chooses" the name the PM puts at the top of the list.) Having a Catholic PM, aside from breaking a prejudicial barrier, would also have forced the British government to address some of these entanglements and make some effort to separate church from state - at least to the extent of ending the practice of having the Prime Minister making ecclesiastic appointments.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Proaxiom
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posted 22 December 2007 07:22 AM      Profile for Proaxiom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Buggers. I lost this one by a minute. Since the other one is likely to get closed, I'll put my "Caption this photo" here:

[ 22 December 2007: Message edited by: Proaxiom ]


From: East of the Sun, West of the Moon | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 22 December 2007 08:04 AM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Er, this celibacy thing is only for priests, right?"
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Tommy_Paine
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posted 22 December 2007 08:12 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
um...that's just camera flash reflected in Ratzinger's eyes....right?
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Proaxiom
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posted 22 December 2007 08:31 AM      Profile for Proaxiom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good point on the flash reflection. It kind of makes him look like... hmm.

Here we go:

"It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father wife, are now ... mine."

[ 22 December 2007: Message edited by: Proaxiom ]


From: East of the Sun, West of the Moon | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 22 December 2007 08:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"His Holiness says that if I give a large donation to the Catholic Church then I won't go to hell for the horrors that have been inflicted on the Iraqi people on my watch. But I just like the cool incense. And you get wafers! I mean, what's better than wafers, right?"
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 22 December 2007 09:23 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
And you get wafers! I mean, what's better than wafers, right?"

Wafers and wine, like in the C of E which Blair left behind.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 22 December 2007 09:40 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"When do I get to be a Deacon?"
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adam stratton
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posted 22 December 2007 11:14 AM      Profile for adam stratton        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe a confession and a 99 Hail Mary will erase the Iraq thing.
From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 22 December 2007 11:37 AM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

[T]here are still completely anachronistic ties between the British state and the Church of England. The PM, for instance, essentially appoints Anglican bishops including the Archbishop of Canterbury (technically, he sends a list to the Queen who makes the appointment but the Queen, by convention, always "chooses" the name the PM puts at the top of the list.) Having a Catholic PM, aside from breaking a prejudicial barrier, would also have forced the British government to address some of these entanglements and make some effort to separate church from state - at least to the extent of ending the practice of having the Prime Minister making ecclesiastic appointments.


While I agree that the establishment of the Church of England is an anachronism, your description of the process isn't really accurate. The list is prepared by the Crown Appointments Commission, which includes representatives of the relevant diocese and ecclesiastical province (ie, York or Canterbury). They create the list. However, Mrs. Thatcher on at least one occasion reversed the order of the list and was widely criticized for it. And the commission does include several purely political members, like the PM's appointments secretary.

On your subsequent point, there have been several non-Anglican Prime Ministers - including the current one. They were simply more deliberate in removing themselves from the process.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 22 December 2007 03:23 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:

While I agree that the establishment of the Church of England is an anachronism, your description of the process isn't really accurate. The list is prepared by the Crown Appointments Commission, which includes representatives of the relevant diocese and ecclesiastical province (ie, York or Canterbury). They create the list. However, Mrs. Thatcher on at least one occasion reversed the order of the list and was widely criticized for it. And the commission does include several purely political members, like the PM's appointments secretary.

On your subsequent point, there have been several non-Anglican Prime Ministers - including the current one. They were simply more deliberate in removing themselves from the process.


Right, sorry, I should have specified that Blair would have been the first Catholic PM which, in a country that still bars royals in line to the throne from marrying Catholics, would have been a milestone.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 22 December 2007 07:39 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Absolutely.

The Act of Succession is up for discussion again as Peter Phillips (son of Princess Anne and now 11th in line for the throne following last week's birth of another cousin) has become engaged to a Canadian who was baptized as a Roman Catholic.


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Peppered Pothead
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posted 22 December 2007 08:03 PM      Profile for Peppered Pothead        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I really like how social democrat manipulators like Blair use religion to propel their foreign policy interventionism, imperialism, preemption and aggression.

And simultaneously, they use it as benevolent cover.


From: Victoria, B.C. | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 23 December 2007 02:20 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For what it is worth, the Christian Socialist Movement (which is an affiliated organization of the UK Labour Party) was highly critical of the intervention in Iraq.
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brookmere
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posted 24 December 2007 08:54 PM      Profile for brookmere     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A minor quibble about the thread title, Blair is not "converting" to Catholicism because he's already a Christian. He's not giving up one set of beliefs for another. He's just changing denominations.
From: BC (sort of) | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boarsbreath
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posted 29 December 2007 07:09 PM      Profile for Boarsbreath   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You can't discuss religious doctrine as though objective agreement were possible. You want to call this a change in denomination only, go ahead. But to the Pope, the Catholic Church is the mother church; the others are daughter churches, not sister ones: there is no suggestion of equality. (It was actually JP II who said that, with the same metaphor, but Ratzinger will believe it at least as fervently.)

As to what Blair thinks, that is a matter of fact, but not one accessible to us!


From: South Seas, ex Montreal | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 29 December 2007 07:58 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by brookmere:
A minor quibble about the thread title, Blair is not "converting" to Catholicism because he's already a Christian. He's not giving up one set of beliefs for another. He's just changing denominations.


"Conversion" is the word that would normally be used, but among Anglo-Catholics (which would have included Blair through most of his time as an Anglican) it would also be referred to with a number of colourful terms such as "poped," "paped," "gone to Rome" and "swum the Tiber."

There is a story of a certain rector of the Anglican parish of St. Mary Magdalene, Toronto who left a note in the vestry following the early service stating "Have gone to Rome. Would Fr. Fairweather take the 11 o'clock."


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

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