quote:

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It is as if we had signed an international stupidity pact, one that required us to ignore the evidence, to hand out new rights without asking for the simplest assessment of need. If the stakes were trivial, no one would care. But intellectual property (IP) is important. These are the ground rules of the information society. Mistakes hurt us. They have costs to free speech, competition, innovation, and science. Why are we making them?

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The non-resident corp then markets the new mousetrap and gleans all the royalties...

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Canada's way down on the list of countries ranked by spending on R&D.

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It could be smply the result of the accounting dynamics but assuming that its true. Imagine this scenario. A US firm sets up a pharmaceutical research company in Toronto to develop some new dreug for arthritis or AIDs whatever. It pays the new company large sums of money to do this. The Canadian resident corporation claims tax credits which flow back to the parent corp.

Now the parent corp then gets a drug patent that it sells back (ultimately, after it is tested and approved, etc) to the Canadian healthcare system at a substantial profit! Research done in Canada funded for with tax dollars - to estract more tax dollars!

These are the facts as they say...

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Yes, as soon as FTA became international trade law, our big five banks and investors began pumping billions out of the country like mad, mostly to the U.S. It's probably the same Mulroney entourage who complain about a lack of investment in Canada now.

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According to Industry Canada, the facts say otherwise, Fidel:

quote:

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Canada's way down on the list of countries ranked by spending on R&D.

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Hardly. According to Industry Canada:

"Governments in Canada perform 13 percent of Canada's R&D, which is considered average by the OECD. In order to improve this, the Government of Canada has committed to doubling its current level of investment in R&D by 2010. This commitment also encourages private investment."

R&D Propensity and Productivity Performance
of Foreign-Controlled Firms in Canada

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The total R&D propensity - defined as the ratio of R&D spending to sales - of foreign controlled firms in the Canadian manufacturing sectors is significantly lower than that of their Canadian-controlled counterparts. Foreign-controlled firms spend significantly less on R&D than Canadian-controlled firms

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Industry Canada, Micro, vol.8 no.1, Summer 2001

... And I disagree with "hardly".

In The Vanishing Nation, Mel Hurtig writes:

quote:

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After years of increasing foreign ownership and after 14 years of free trade
, Canada is now in thirtieth place in a U.N. list of fourty-eight high-development countries when it comes to high-technology exports as a percentage of total goods exports. - (Toronto Star, September 25, 2001)

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Canada's Direct Investment Originating in Canada Post-FTA(and mostly going to the States)

1970s $17.0 billion
1980s $68.4 billion
1990s $181.4 billion

1997 was the first time in Canadian history that direct investment abroad from Canada exceeded foreign direct investment in Canada. This investment deficit grew again in 2000 and 2001.

Statistics Canada, Canada's International Investment Position

I lost r&d jobs in telecom twice around this same time. You can't begin to explain to me that money isn't leaving this Puerto Rico du Nord by the truckloads every year.

FDI versus CDIA, 1989 - 2001: DFAIT

[ 23 April 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

I'm not exactly sure I understand what your argument here is. Originally, you stated that someone or other was complaining about a "lack of investment in Canada now". As I have shown, in fact, the opposite is true.

Also, I don't understand what you mean by an "investment deficit". Are you suggesting that (if, in fact this is true) a surplus of foreign investment versus domestic investment is a bad thing? Why?

In certain industry sectors, like oil and gas, domestic investment has recently begun to outpace foreign investment. So, as far as that's concerned, again, you seem to have your facts wrong.

quote:

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I lost r&d jobs in telecom twice around this same time. You can't begin to explain to me that money isn't leaving this Puerto Rico du Nord by the truckloads every year.

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The fact that you lost a job, while unfortunate, in and of itself doesn't prove anything. Over all, the Canadian unemployment rate has been steadily dropping since 1992. That hasn't changed since the inception of FTAA in 1994.

quote:

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Originally posted by Grady Wilson:

Hardly. According to Industry Canada:

"Governments in Canada perform 13 percent of Canada's R&D, which is considered average by the OECD.

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Apples and oranges here, I think. You're saying the Canadian government does as large a proportion of the total as other governments do of their totals.

Fidel is saying Canada as a whole performs less R&D than most; that the total is small, whatever the proportion done by public vs. private.

Which brings us to the second apples and oranges--your very pretty graph with the upward curve had nothing whatsoever to do with Fidel's contention. Fidel talked about Canadian money leaving the country, and you responded with an authoritative-looking graph showing foreign money entering the country. These things are not mutually exclusive. You did later say something to the purpose, but my initial reaction to your graph was "Wow, sure smacked Fidel down with those figures!"--until I realized that the figures were unrelated and you'd only said something unsupported about Fidel's actual thesis. You need to be reading for comprehension before you invest that much in an argument.

With respect to your wondering what makes domestic investment better, well, given that foreign-controlled companies apparently do far less R&D, this would be a hint towards why foreign investment is less useful than domestic--you end up with foreign-controlled companies which are run to benefit foreign interests. Branch plants tend to do less R&D, less of the core manufacturing, don't have head office jobs etc. etc., and that's not even getting into questions of where profits and dividends go.

Further, one has to wonder if a country with truly large percentages of foreign-controlled companies won't experience certain distortions to its economy and its ability to pursue policies with its own interests in mind. Looking at Canada in specific, I'd have to give that a "yes".

[ 24 April 2005: Message edited by: Rufus Polson ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Grady Wilson:
Fidel,

I'm not exactly sure I understand what your argument here is. Originally, you stated that someone or other was complaining about a "lack of investment in Canada now". As I have shown, in fact, the opposite is true.

---

Oh? Then why do you think Canada is listed as 30th out of 48 nations for high-technology exports ?. I think the questions should be, who's doing better than us ?.

Here's a statement you might like: Canada's exports have risen since Mulroney and Chretien pushed for FTA and NAFTA.

It doesn't say what role the lowering of our Canadian dollar since 1988 has played in making it cheaper for multinational corporations to cart away our raw materials by the truckload, boatload and taxpayer funded pipelines. And it doesn't reveal how much money has been pumped out of this country in applying downward pressure on our dollar in order to create the favourable conditions for theft of our natural resources either.

And it says nothing about the net job-losses in Canada. And we seem to be importing a rather large amount of goods and services as a percentage of GDP compared to other countries which prefer producing at home.

If you look at the DFAIT stats above, you'll notice that more money was invested in other countries(USA) from Canada than was invested in Canada from 1989 to 2001.

quote:

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In certain industry sectors, like oil and gas, domestic investment has recently begun to outpace foreign investment. So, as far as that's concerned, again, you seem to have your facts wrong.

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The facts are from the same source you used and a couple more that are fairly well recognized.

quote:

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The fact that you lost a job, while unfortunate, in and of itself doesn't prove anything. Over all, the Canadian unemployment rate has been steadily dropping since 1992. That hasn't changed since the inception of FTAA in 1994.

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These next two tables of data are from Mel Hurtig's book, Vanishing Country: Is it too late to save Canada ?. So you'll have to call him on his facts for this one.

Canada's Unemployment Rates for the Last Half of the Last Century

1950s 4.2 percent
1960s 5.0 percent
1970s 6.7 percent
1980s 9.3 percent
1990s 9.5 percent

What's afta' NAFTA ?.

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Blame what you will, but perhaps you are merely in the wrong line of work at the wrong time? Have you considered a career in the oil patch? Apparently, high-paying jobs are going begging for want of qualified people.[/QB]

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I've heard different. Instead of hiring thousands of skilled and unemployed Canadian's, the US and other foreign based oil companies will be hiring [URL=Imported Labour to Build Oilsands Ignites Alberta Labour War]scabs[/URL] labour from the US for oil sands projects. See what happens when we have weak and ineffective conservative governments in control of our natural wealth ?.

Imports of Goods and Services as a Percentage of GDP - G7

Canada.. 41 percent
Germany..28 ""
U.K. 27 ""
France 24 ""
Italy 24 ""
USA 13 ""
Japan 9 "'

Think of all the jobs, retained profits and overall increased economic activity if Canada was only an average trading country. Yes, we have no bananas. But we do have oil, and lumber and natural gas and hydro-electric power up the wazoo. It's too bad we've stagnated so under 100 years of liberal and conservative autocracy/plutocracy in this frozen Puerto Rico du Nord.

Buenos dias

[ 24 April 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

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Fidel is saying Canada as a whole performs less R&D than most; that the total is small, whatever the proportion done by public vs. private.

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Apparently, Fidel says a lot of things. I wasn't responding to that.

quote:

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Which brings us to the second apples and oranges--your very pretty graph with the upward curve had nothing whatsoever to do with Fidel's contention.

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Well, given the particular contention, of Fidel's seemingly endless contentions, to which I was responding is:

quote:

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It's probably the same Mulroney entourage who complain about a lack of investment in Canada now.

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Clearly, the graph shows there is no lack of foreign investement in Canada now. Therefore, the graph has everything to do with it.

quote:

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You need to be reading for comprehension before you invest that much in an argument.

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And perhaps you need to be taking your own condescending advice.

quote:

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given that foreign-controlled companies apparently do far less R&D

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Until you can back that up with facts, this remains merely your own, possibibly uninformed, opinion. I don't accept it as a "given".

quote:

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Further, one has to wonder if a country with truly large percentages of foreign-controlled companies won't experience certain distortions to its economy and its ability to pursue policies with its own interests in mind. Looking at Canada in specific, I'd have to give that a "yes".

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Foreign investment does not necessarily mean "foreign-controlled".

But let's examine your argument in a real-world situation. What if we had a country with virtually no foreign investment (or "foreign-control", as you like to confuse it)? This country is completely free to happily pursue its own interests. A completely autonomous land, where all it's citizens enjoy unprecedented freedom and prosperity, from such a wise and benevolent policy.

Of course, I'm taling about North Korea. Is that what you had in mind?

[ 24 April 2005: Message edited by: Grady Wilson ]

quote:

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Oh? Then why do you think Canada is listed as 30th out of 48 nations for high-technology exports?

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But I don't think that.

quote:

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Here's a statement you might like: Canada's exports have risen since Mulroney and Chretien pushed for FTA and NAFTA.

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quote:

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It doesn't say what role the lowering of our Canadian dollar since 1988 has played in making it cheaper for multinational corporations to cart away our raw materials by the truckload, boatload and taxpayer funded pipelines.

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Yes, your right. That statement doesn't say what what role, etc., etc.. But since you are the one who originally made the statement, and it's subsequent counter-argument, I'm not surprised.

By the way, please point out one of these "taxpayer funded pipelines" to me. I've never seen one before, so I think me and my colleagues would be fascinated to see what they look like? Or are they magic invisible pipelines, so nobody will be able to see all of this natural resources "theft" of which you speak?

quote:

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And it says nothing about the net job-losses in Canada.

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Well, maybe you should have thought of that when you wrote the initial statement? But then again, unemployment has been decreasing, not increasing for over a decade. Not that you'll let an inconvenient fact like that get in the way of your rant.

quote:

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If you look at the DFAIT stats above, you'll notice that more money was invested in other countries(USA) from Canada than was invested in Canada from 1989 to 2001.

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Once again, as I mentioned previously, you don't bother to explain how this is a sign of the impending apocalypse, even if it's true.

quote:

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These next two tables of data are from Mel Hurtig's book, Vanishing Country: Is it too late to save Canada ?.

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Good. So we can safely save time and skip it.

quote:

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I've heard different. Instead of hiring thousands of skilled and unemployed Canadian's, the US and other foreign based oil companies will be hiring [URL=Imported Labour to Build Oilsands Ignites Alberta Labour War]scabs[/URL] labour from the US for oil sands projects. See what happens when we have weak and ineffective conservative governments in control of our natural wealth ?.

---

Huh? We have a Liberal governemt, and have had for some time. Haven't you heard? Besides, I can tell you there is a distinct lack of skilled Canadians to work in the patch. I know. That's where I work, in case you haven't figured it out yet. In any case, I haven't run into any Americans yet.

quote:

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Imports of Goods and Services as a Percentage of GDP - G7

Canada.. 41 percent
Germany..28 ""
U.K. 27 ""
France 24 ""
Italy 24 ""
USA 13 ""
Japan 9 "'

Think of all the jobs, retained profits and overall increased economic activity if Canada was only an average trading country.

---

quote:

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Yes, good point. So what you are saying is that we need to be more like Japan and the United States? Now you're beginning to make sense.

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It is not possible to be like both Japan and the US. They are fundamentally different economies. To cite one major difference: Japan has about the flattest income distribution in the industrial world, and the US is the most skewed.

[ 24 April 2005: Message edited by: jrootham ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Grady Wilson:
But I don't think that.

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Think?. You ?. I didn't necessarily say that you did. About 69 percent of all revenue from foreign direct investment goes to American firms. The general idea here is that more foreign control of Canadian economic content doesn't seem to bode well for spending on R&D within Canada.

quote:

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Yes, your right. That statement doesn't say what what role, etc., etc.. But since you are the one who originally made the statement, and it's subsequent counter-argument, I'm not surprised.

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Forget it. Because I get the feeling that everything I say here will surprise you.

quote:

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By the way, please point out one of these "taxpayer funded pipelines" to me. I've never seen one before, so I think me and my colleagues would be fascinated to see what they look like? Or are they magic invisible pipelines, so nobody will be able to see all of this natural resources "theft" of which you speak?

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How about the TransCanada pipeline that comes east and juts south of the border near Winnipeg, and takes a serreptitious route back into Canada somewhere around Sarnia. There's a natural gas pipeline that darts back into Canada around Sault, Ontario, tariffs and all. Do you believe big business, those benevolent capitalists, paid for all TransCanada themeselves in the beginning ?. CD Howe, an alleged Liberal at the time, said that Canadian taxpayers money shouldn't be used to compete with private enterprise. And so we sold the pipeline to big business for a fraction of what it cost the bozo taxpayers, yourself included.

quote:

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Well, maybe you should have thought of that when you wrote the initial statement? But then again, unemployment has been decreasing, not increasing for over a decade. Not that you'll let an inconvenient fact like that get in the way of your rant.

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Again, what you're saying has little relevance to the overall picture. You have to remember that it was Mulroney, a good conservative in his own right, who promised Canadian's jobs! jobs! jobs! once they signed us all up for free trade. But the cold facts are that in the 13.25 years before FTA, Canada had created over 3 million full time jobs. And this while Canada's exports (energy and lumber included) was less than todays total exports.

In the 13.25 years after FTA was implemented, Canada created a pathetic total of less than 1, 381, 000 full time jobs.

quote:

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Free trade will create jobs! jobs! jobs!. - Brian Mulroney, former Conservative Prime Minister of Canada until he slithered away in 1993 during one of the worst economic recessions in Canada since the 1930's

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quote:

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Good. So we can safely save time and skip it.

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Ya, let's skip the rest of your post, too. You're not making any sense anyway.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

It's actually stifling innovation. Software developers have to keep looking over their shoulder wondering if they're going to be sued by someone whenever they release a new product.

Then you have the whole SCO vs. IBM lawsuit over Linux which is just crazy.

Nobody is buying SCO's software products. Instead SCO is banking on winning their IP lawsuit.