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AMARILLO, Texas — The Roman Catholic Church plans to establish its first religious society devoted exclusively to fighting euthanasia and abortion, church leaders said this week.

The male-only Missionaries of the Gospel of Life — founded by Father Frank A. Pavone, an outspoken opponent of abortion rights — will be housed in a vacant Catholic high school and dormitory on the grounds of the Diocese of Amarillo.

The order will have a decidedly political bent, and will be active rather than contemplative, Pavone said.

Its priests will be trained to conduct voter-registration drives, use the media to get out their antiabortion message and lobby lawmakers to restrict abortion rights.

They also will learn to lead demonstrations outside offices where abortions and family-planning services are provided.

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Love them and educate them?

Yes

Are you the same who whine about welfare and look to take this resouce from the poeple?

No

How can you expect women to succeed in a world that denies them the right to make a choice, so they MUST be a parent, or have the child and find/give/hope that some other soul will???

Having a child is no barrier to success.

SO - the women has the baby - you denied her an abortion - she was 17 - now what??? You expect her to go to school because it is her only hope if she wants to be able to follow her dreams, become her full person. What help do you offer her??

Yes. They often offer pre and post natal support including education.

I'm sorry, you are dead wrong on this one. Pro-lifers are generally Conservatives and they don't give two shits about live human beings.

BTW, as a 17 year old single parent, where the fuck were all the caring 'pro-lifers'? I'll tell you where they were, trying to stop the every social program I at one point relied upon. Spare me the drivel. This isn't just my story, but the story of many, many other young single parents.

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Having a child is no barrier to success

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You as a man have ZERO right to say this.Like you would have any direct experience as a struggling single parent. Jesus H Christ. What a load of crap.

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Now, isn't it a little sexist to say that a man would have no experience as a struggling single parent? Or that one's gender limits what they are allowed to say?

aargh.

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From what I've learned from ardent pro-lifers:
Are you going to raise them?

Yes

Love them and educate them?

Yes

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Really??
(And I am only using this example to put a real picture to our minds)

How may young women in this world are put into the position of becoming pregnant due to unwanted sexual intercourse, and/or teens who have been told DO NOT HAVE SEX, but yet are not given the proper tools to handle this REAL LIFE situation. Are the Pro-lifers setting up trust funds for these kids born into our world now? Are there education plans for their success?? DO they buy food for the babies, or go over 2 times a week to babysit while the young girl attends night school, or even just gets to 'be'...finding peace to be a good parent.
So - what are they really doing to help AFTER the baby comes.......

[ 31 March 2005: Message edited by: Ginger ]

What can be done? Provide more affordable housing, instead of building more useless condos. Instead of sitting on the National Child Care deal, make it happen. Provide single parents with the means to be able to get ahead, without at the same time moralizing and destroying their very existence with neo-con drivel aimed at 'helping you', for example, don't cut back welfare payments because the poor might buy cigarettes. Most importantly, if these pro-lifers truly cared about the children, they would be providing strong moral support for single parents and pregant women. Instead what do they do? Well, the first thing is, consider you unfit to have a child (yep, in many cases the CAS would show up at the hospital to have you sign adoption papers you never requested).

Enpowerment, and making sure these parents have the same opportunities as everyone else to get ahead, despite being a single parent. Unfortunately, this type of support never comes from the right. It comes from the left. If it were up to the right, they'd just pretend women and girls didn't get pregnant, and would witch burn them once they took the babies away from the 'moraless mothers' and dumped them into foster homes or adoption agencies. Another good trick of the right is to punish you for the rest of your life for being a single parent at such an early age. They sure do have compassion, these right wingers.

It's really good to hear from you guys, and what you're saying is something we all need to hear. The focus has to shift.

Let's shift all these pointless, circular arguments of the anti-choicers when we can and talk about the living breathing mothers (and sometimes fathers) and children who need our serious support. Not our condescension or control, but our help in establishing completely independent lives.

And by that I do not mean to imply that I'm taking my support away, either, from all the young women who have no intention of becoming mothers in the first place, or of having another child. We must defend that freedom, while at the same time forcing the anti-choicers to look at the consequences of their propaganda.

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Now, isn't it a little sexist to say that a man would have no experience as a struggling single parent? Or that one's gender limits what they are allowed to say?

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Let's put it this way, I have run across a few single fathers BUT they get nothing but praise and heaps of kind words because people feel that being a single father is valiant and that everyone needs to recognize just how wonderful a man taking care of his own child is. I can tell you, that is not the same treatment a single mother gets. I have even been quilty of patting men on the back who take sole care of their children, while at the same time weirdly understanding how terrible it was that female single parents are not given the same respect for the exact same thing.

Society seems to see a single male parent (I mean sole parent) as a hero. Society seems to see single female parents as a blight on our society (raise criminals, cycle of poverty, blah, blah, blah), and not worthy of praise because she is, afterall, only doing her female duty, while he on the other hand, is a hero.

I have seen a few single parent men, and they do pretty good jobs, and they struggle just the same. But the perception of a male single parent and female single parent is different. Therein lies yet another dilema.

As to whether your gender limits what you can say about how a woman's body is to be controlled, you're damn right only women should have sole control over their own bodies. They carry the baby for 9 months, they are the ones whose lives are changed forever, and they are the ones raising a child until that child is 40 (hahaha - hi mom). No man should be able to decide my fate, nor my child's fate beased upon an experience that is not possible for him to have. End of story/debate for me.

[ 31 March 2005: Message edited by: stargazer ]

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and they are the ones raising a child until that child is 40

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Originally posted by Bacchus:

WTF?

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I'm thinking specifically of societies in which unborn girls are aborted because they are intrinsically less valued than male children (China?).

Bacchus, fathers are extremely important in a child's life, and if they are supportive of their child(ren) then they clearly should have equal rights to their children and an equal say in what happens with them. (By supportive I don't just mean financially). I am not keen on people who claim they support their children but only under certain conditions, which happens all the time.

Everything you say resonates so deeply with me. I had my son as a teen largely b/c of the total anti-choice crap my Catholic mother pushed on me and, just in case you're wondering if she redeemed herself by helping me out financially, or with childcare or even basic moral support the answer is a big fat NO. Nothing, Nada, Zip. Why? Because I also made a choice not to get married, thereby cementing my status as a freakish, sluttish sinner in the eyes of all Catholics everywhere. Oh well...

Where did I get support? Community centres and social prorgams that operated from a leftist ideology that included pro-choice!

So here I am, struggling away at uni on student loans, juggling unreliable baby sitters so I can sometimes work part-time shifts at menial jobs to alleviate my massive student debt, struggling to pay the rent and also dealing with all the stupid steretypes about lazy single moms who do nothing but suck off the system. Ha! If only they knew how much harder than most we have to work just to get to the freaking bus stop every morning...(I think we should get medals just for managing to get dressed some days...).

So ditto to every blessed thing you said.(But you forgot to add that we need a national dental plan, too.)

[ 31 March 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

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What happens when the equalizing freedom aspect of abortion runs bang smack into the gender suppressing aspect of abortion?

I'm thinking specifically of societies in which unborn girls are aborted because they are intrinsically less valued than male children (China?).

Does the western freedom balance the eastern suppression?

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You are conflating two different issues here, Heywood Floyd: general cultural attitudes towards women and abortion. Banning abortion in China would not end the culturally embedded practice of favouring boy children over girls (or resorting to good old fashioned infanticide to do the job).

[ 31 March 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

The universal dental plan is a necessity. Why should the kids be punished because we made 'mistakes'? But that's exactly the right wing compassion we were discussing. It disappears once there is a living child with real needs to contend with.

This thread has given me a new idea for a poster at any future pro-choice rallies: You only love my fetus until it needs its teeth fixed ...

[ 31 March 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

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Its priests will be trained to conduct voter-registration drives, use the media to get out their antiabortion message and lobby lawmakers to restrict abortion rights

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And what darn difference will illegalising/restricting abortion make?

I get sick of anti-abortion activists wittering about illegalising abortion when it won't make a significant difference.

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What the hell do you plan on doing with all of the babies? Are you going to raise them? Love them and educate them? Are you the same who whine about welfare and look to take this resouce from the poeple? How can you expect women to succeed in a world that denies them the right to make a choice, so they MUST be a parent, or have the child and find/give/hope that some other soul will??? SO - the women has the baby - you denied her an abortion - she was 17 - now what??? You expect her to go to school because it is her only hope if she wants to be able to follow her dreams, become her full person. What help do you offer her?? I want to know your plan for thi

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Ginger those are legitimate and fair question. I do happen to think that they are more applicable groups to ask that to than the RC church. Of all of the people in the prolife movement they tend to be most true to the idea of helping people in complicated circumstances.

I'm not answering this as a RC as I am not but I'll answer it as someone who does share the prolife philosophy with them.

What would be done with the babies would be a diverse answer. Certainly there would be the opportunity to assist mothers in giving birth and parenting their children. There would also be supports available to adopt a child out. There are families that are waiting for newborns. It is noteworthy that the pool of families does diminish as children mature and/or bring complicated issue and that's a social issue that should receive more national attention.

Christians are disproportionately found amongst adoptive and foster parents.

On a personal level we do plan on adopting at one point but, presently, are ineligible.

I would never whine about young women on social assistance but I won't deny that there are people who do - whether they are prolife or prochoice they are an embarrassment but prolifers have a special responsibility to be compassionate and generous.

In terms of education I tend to believe that everyone should have better access to post-secondary education and that students should not have to graduate with loans of the current magnitude. I believe in that as a general rule not just for young mothers.

On a personal level during University my sisters and I donated child care time to young mothers who had babies that were born from crisis pregnancy so that they could have study time, free time, and extra time at final exam periods. Obviously I can't offer that to every woman in a difficult circumstance as I am only one person.

I would be guilty of not doing a lot except financial donations in the last while just because of life. My husband presently volunteers with a young man who has a girlfriend that had a baby and the purpose is to mentor, guide, etc. Does that help every person in a tough spot? No.

Whether you are pro-choice or pro-life it really should be a source of sadness that people face socio-economic circumstances and feel that they have to choose abortion because, in their hearts, they have no other choice because our community doesn't want to be more helpful. One of the most priveledged countries on earth and we can't help people more? How incredibly sad is that?

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Do Pro-lifers care about the child once it is past being a baby? Maybe some do but there is no way in hell you can convince me, and many others as well, that these pro-lifers by and large 'care'. These same pro-lifers are the same people who constantly prattle on about 'individual responisiblity' and 'if its your mistake you fix it up'. Please!! These again are the same people asking for a decrease in welfare, increase in the cost of an education, less money for child care and other equally repressive measures that make it next to impossible to provide a child with what it needs.

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Stargazer my anecdotal experience as a protestant is that you won't find that attitude to be prevalent amongst RC's who are actually more socialist in nature. Do some protestants? Absolutely. Is that wrong? Yes.

You will never ever find a thread that I have written that suggests there is a need for a reduction in social assistance.

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BTW, as a 17 year old single parent, where the fuck were all the caring 'pro-lifers'? I'll tell you where they were, trying to stop the every social program I at one point relied upon. Spare me the drivel. This isn't just my story, but the story of many, many other young single parents.

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I would not want that to be a sweeping generalization but it stands as a very fair criticism that anyone who is prolife - and honestly just any decent person prolife or prochoice - would want to support people under those circumstances.

You deserved better than that and so does anyone in that circumstance.

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Unfortunately, this type of support never comes from the right. It comes from the left

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I don't agree with that stargazer. Sometimes it does come from the right but it's certainly far less than what is needed or deserved. The left is more consistent in that regard and they should be applauded for that. I would have to say though that often times it just comes from nowhere.

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If it were up to the right, they'd just pretend women and girls didn't get pregnant, and would witch burn them once they took the babies away from the 'moraless mothers' and dumped them into foster homes or adoption agencies. Another good trick of the right is to punish you for the rest of your life for being a single parent at such an early age. They sure do have compassion, these right wingers.

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however, i am not one of these people that will beat down on you for your views.

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The brave ones are the ones who fight for their children, they dont murder them so they can sleep in late on the weekends and buy that fancy pair of shoes.

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That lasted all of one paragraph. I mean, thanks for trying, but really, why even bother?

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The Church and her followers will continue to fight this evil until it is outlawed.

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Oops! I guess that part about the evil just slipped out, eh?

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Please pray hard for our priests who are doing all they can to save a life. i wont be posting on here again.

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Promises, promises. If you do I'll ask the moderator to "enforce" your promise.

Hail holy queen. Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope, to thee do we cry poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our cries, morning and weeping in this valley of tears. turn then thine eyes most gracious advocate towards us, and after this our exile show unto us the spirit of thy womb Jesus. o clement o clement oh sweet mother Mary, have mercy on us who have recourse to thee.

Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven, Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Glory Be to the Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be world without end amen.

Father,
Please open the hearts of these women, clense the blood from the hands of those who have commited the crimes murder through abortion. Forgive them Father for they know not what they do. open their hearts to You Lord. so that they may know You, so that they may love and serve You, until our judgement day comes. forgive your people who spit in your face, through sin and selfish acts. Enlighten us Lord God, save us from this evil secular society who wishes to silent those who do your service. Stop the violence to the unborn, and the extremists who without charity destroy the murder houses called abortion clinics. help us find a peaceful way through conversion of heart and understanding of the value of the Life you see fit to give Lord. let every baby be valued for her life you create. let every brave mother know her rewards for doing your will and trusting in your purpose. and forgive those who refuse your ways Lords, those who dont understand that our bodies are not our bodies but your temples your gifts, they belong solely to you Lord. please accept my dedication and Holy Hour to you tonight Lord as a prayer for forgiveness and conversion for the people of these forums Lord so that we may all one day share in your Glory in the Kingdom of Heaven. God Bless them for the possiblity you place in their hands. they may not want their babies Lord God, but so many others do. put it in their hearts to give the gift of life to others. I thank you Father for your love and Mercy.

Amen.

God Bless you my brothers and sisters. i will pray for you.

quote:

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Originally posted by MarysLegionary:
I just wanted to share something with you all. ... i wont be posting on here again. i just wanted to share that message with you. ...

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Ginger those are legitimate and fair question. I do happen to think that they are more applicable groups to ask that to than the RC church. Of all of the people in the prolife movement they tend to be most true to the idea of helping people in complicated circumstances.

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Hailey,
this is NOT TRUE. And I say this as someone who was raised Catholic and denied any meaningful help by that community when I was pregnant at 15. Community shaming, yes, rejection by my family, yes. Housing? No. Counselling? No. Educational opportunities? No. Those all came from secular sources. Honestly I have received more help from the United Church than the Catholic, and far, far, far more from secular organizations than either of these. There are no greater hypocrites than Catholics, I can assure you, first hand. Please limit your comments to things you actually have some knowledge or experience of instead of posting blatant lies.

[ 16 June 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

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A 55-year-old Roman Catholic priest from London, Ont., has been charged with sexual offences involving two young boys.
The Norfolk County Detachment of the Ontario Provincial Police made the arrest stemming from complaints of two young males, who say they were sexually assaulted at a Port Dover parish between 1995 and 2000.

The boys were between 12 and 18 at the time.

Charged with two counts of sexual assault, two counts of sexual exploitation, one count of sexual interference and one count of sexual touching is Konstanty (Konnie) Przybylski, 55, of London. The accused was a priest at St. Cecilia’s Church in Port Dover at the time of the offences.

He is scheduled to appear in court in Simcoe on July 26.

The investigation is continuing.

Anyone with information on this case or any other case is asked to call CrimeStoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS (8477).

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[ 16 June 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]

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Hailey,
this is NOT TRUE. And I say this as someone who was raised Catholic and denied any meaningful help by that community when I was pregnant at 15. Community shaming, yes, rejection by my family, yes. Housing? No. Counselling? No. Educational opportunities? No. Those all came from secular sources. Honestly I have received more help from the United Church than the Catholic, and far, far, far more from secular organizations than either of these. There are no greater hypocrites than Catholics, I can assure you, first hand. Please limit your comments to things you actually have some knowledge or experience of instead of posting blatant lies.

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My experiences are less than direct than yours and also different. I am also sorry that those were your experiences.

I can't speak with any knowledge of the UCC and it's services. I am glad to hear that they have a supportive community.

I have, however, felt and seen that the RC church does a better job of offering support than fundamentalist churches. If the UCC is superior to that they should be congratulated. That's an important part of being a church.

My close friend while growing up, got pregnant and went through her 1st year of university, almost, with no one knowing she hid it so well. She was so terrfied of what would happen to her..the only way her parents found out was when she had the baby on their bathroom floor, after enduring a day of labour on her own while at home for the week end. Her mom heard her scream went running to check and found daughter and a granddaughter. My friend had thought she could flush the full term baby and no one would know, she was so terrified of being excommunicated and kicked out of her family.

But, you are absolutely right churches that have a special obligation often fail.

Both of those were quite improper, and quite contrary to what ought to have been expected.

May I enquire of Granola Girl and Remind what part of the country that was in, and in what time period? I would be curious to figure out who the Bishops were that were involved....

Society seems to see a single male parent (I mean sole parent) as a hero. Society seems to see single female parents as a blight on our societyraise criminals, cycle of poverty, blah, blah, blah), and not worthy of praise because she is, afterall, only doing her female duty, while he on the other hand, is a hero.

I have seen a few single parent men, and they do pretty good jobs, and they struggle just the same. But the perception of a male single parent and female single parent is different. Therein lies yet another dilema.

As to whether your gender limits what you can say about how a woman's body is to be controlled, you're damn right only women should have sole control over their own bodies. They carry the baby for 9 months, they are the ones whose lives are changed forever, and they are the ones raising a child until that child is 40 (hahaha - hi mom). No man should be able to decide my fate, nor my child's fate beased upon an experience that is not possible for him to have. End of story/debate for me.

----------------------------------------------
Generaly right. But single parent fathers never at any time had a choice in the matter. You either step up to the plate, or walk away. Your significant other is pregnant? The choice is hers, not yours. And if she chooses to abandon the child down the road, her lack of responsibility is now your responsibility to compensate for. At every stage, except the decision to have intercourse, the power to make choices that effect your future is not up to you.

Single parent fathers are viewed as heros? Perhaps because so many fathers abandon the families they helped start, seeing a single dad is a rare event? Heros compared to other men, because they are in contrast with assholes?
Not heros to single parents, reguardless of gender. Just another compadre' in an uphill struggle doing the right thing, and doing what needs to be done.

And as for the pro life argument of adoption,

Quote "There are families that are waiting for newborns.
Christians are disproportionately found amongst adoptive and foster parents.
On a personal level we do plan on adopting at one point but, presently, are ineligible."

I think the third world might have a few orphans in your desired age group who would love a safe and nurturing home..........

F
edited to add ""'s

[ 05 August 2005: Message edited by: Farmageddon ]

I've been around the RC block, from the pew side of things and from the Parish Council and ledership side as well. It took a long time before I was willing to face the truth about what I was witnessing in the church I loved.

The church is about power and control. Look at the church's teachings on women. Women's charism (gift) is to be OTHER-centred? Excuse me, but that's church-talk for "Back of the bus, ladies - there are men coming aboard."

EVERYbody's call is to be other-centred, but the RC power structure makes it women's job. Men's charisms, well, those are the active, busy charisms like....telling women what to do with their bodies, telling the world that their laws must conform to archaic RC teachings, and trying to blame the clergy's pedophile scandal on homosexuals (conveniently brushing the babies fathered by priests under the carpet).

Hosea 13:16 ...for she hath rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

quote:

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Originally posted by raccunk:
Boom Boom: All I get when I click on that link is a blue picture with a ship and a sea serpent. Am I missing something?

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Originally posted by raccunk:
I hadn't even thought of that [...] I just thought they were into torturing men!

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Self-flagellation seems more likely. What a strange rant. Had it contained some twinkle of humour, I would suspect the keyboard of Rick Mercer but this is not parody, folks. What it is exactly, difficult to say. Some born-again Anarchist? .... notice the many shout-outs to Non Violent Direct Action? And the quotes! Milton, Mark Twain, Lenny Bruce, Langston Hughes, The Who.

But back to the topic. When my daughter was around 2 years old, I brought her to a pro-choice event. A valiant group of CARAL members and other supporters with placards proclaiming "Every child a wanted child" and other such statements circled the eternal flame on Parliament Hill. Meanwhile, hundreds of anti-abortionists streamed towards the Peace Tower.

One of them made it his mission to harrangue us. As he yelled "Murderers and baby-killers" at us at the top of his voice, I decided that I wanted to engage this man in a dialogue. My daughter was perched on my back in a child carrier and I carefully approached him. I tried to make eye contact. "Excuse me sir, I said, your shouting is not constructive. I am not a baby-killer. This is my child and I want her to live in a world where babies are born because they are wanted. Pregnancy belongs to to the woman who choses to give life, not to the Church and not to the Pope."

He just kept on shouting his violent slogans and never once looked directly at me.

[ 10 August 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

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Originally posted by Nikita:
.

I just don't get anti-abortionists, especially the male ones. They want all women to give birth to every fertilized egg, but then will persecute and make life miserable for the unwed young single mothers out there.

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Originally posted by raccunk:
To the Christians looking for children: There are plenty of brown, disabled, and older children floating around the foster care system looking for good homes. This is according to my developmental Psych professor(I consider her a reliable source).

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Originally posted by Publius:
Yeah, like those vile people at Aid to Women who collect collect baby food, clothing, cribs, strollers, toys and and offer counselling to women facing unplanned pregnancies. Every time I see them volunteering their time and donating their money for single moms, it jsut makes me so mad. I think "Wow. You guys really hate women. Stop trying to make their lives so miserable!".

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My wife hates feminists because your the reason she has to go to work everyday.

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My wife hates feminists because your the reason she has to go to work everyday.

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But she's a woman, what does she know.

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Originally posted by Publius:

Yeah, like those vile people at Aid to Women who collect collect baby food, clothing, cribs, strollers, toys and and offer counselling to women facing unplanned pregnancies. Every time I see them volunteering their time and donating their money for single moms, it jsut makes me so mad. I think "Wow. You guys really hate women. Stop trying to make their lives so miserable!".

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[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]

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Originally posted by deBeauxOs:

IMHO, Publius, I would be extremely surprised if the man who harangued me did that type of work. It has been my experience that the majority of anti-abortionists have gravitated towards this movement for a variety of reasons, and are often fuelled by a complex mixture of misogeny and self-righteousness.

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Agreed, deBeauxOs. In particular the self-righteousness of 'pro-lifers' is fuelled by the false belief that the Christian God is somehow a warm and fuzzy loving God(at least when it comes to the 'unborn'-they still typically believe that God is vengeful when it comes to Muslims, Jews, and women in general).

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Originally posted by Mandos:
youre missing the point its because god is allowed to do all that

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I have often wondered, if human beings knew how to listen to their bodies and had the awareness/power to heal themselves from within, how many women would terminate their unwanted pregnancies by consciously triggering a spontaneous abortion (medical term for miscarriage that occurs in the first trimester)?

But then, that would be a world where people would take responsibility for their sexual behaviours and would choose to provide parents & children with real support.

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: deBeauxOs ]

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But then, that would be a world where people would take responsibility for their sexual behaviours and would choose to provide parents & children with real support.

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And that of course, would be Satanic, so don't even think about it.

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by Mandos:
youre missing the point its because god is allowed to do all that

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Fucking old testament hacks. I'd rather plan my lifes beliefs and activities from interpretations from the instruction manual that came with my microwave.

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Originally posted by Uknowimright:
I think what all of you uptight women need is a good donkey punch.

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Originally posted by Nam:
Not to contribute to thread drift, but what the hell is a donkey punch? I've never heard that expression before.

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Read the first explaination on this page