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Author Topic: Should Indonesia seek Dutch compensation?
Cueball
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posted 19 March 2008 05:25 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Should Indonesia seek Dutch compensation?

quote:
As I read more about the history of Indonesia, this question cropped up to tease me.

The question being this; should Indonesia demand compensation from the Dutch Government for their past atrocities and what they looted during their time in Indonesia?

I have neither come across any source which says that the Dutch have formally and unequivocally apologised for their past crimes against the Indonesians nor is there anything which says that Indonesia has absolved the Dutch.

The history of the VOC and the Dutch East Indies is filled with umpteen comments that relate about Dutch atrocities.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 March 2008 05:38 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would be interested in seeing what would happen if some Dutch Babblers were to head on over to this Indonesian forum and ask them if they feel that "the Dutch treat them fairly"?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 19 March 2008 06:14 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball, check your PMs.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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Babbler # 4117

posted 19 March 2008 07:34 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
would be interested in seeing what would happen if some Dutch Babblers were to head on over to this Indonesian forum and ask them if they feel that "the Dutch treat them fairly"?

I don't get it. What's going on here? Are you angry with someone?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 March 2008 07:37 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How much compensation would we be talking about, anyway?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 March 2008 07:50 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the bigger question is should indigenous peoples aroumd the world seek reparations/compensation from the Netherlands because of Royal Dutch Shell's continued and extreme exploitation of their land and resources?
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pk34th45
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posted 19 March 2008 08:15 AM      Profile for pk34th45        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
I think the bigger question is should indigenous peoples aroumd the world seek reparations/compensation from the Netherlands because of Royal Dutch Shell's continued and extreme exploitation of their land and resources?

I guess Canada should pay the same for the environmental destruction caused by Teck Cominco Ltd and genocide caused Talisman Energy.

quote:
Oil company faces genocide charges over Sudan engagement
afrol News, 30 August - The Canadian oil company Talisman Energy is set to face charges of "complicity in genocide and war crimes" in a US court due to its past engagements in southern Sudan. The Presbyterian Church of Sudan is challenging the company, claiming its operations had fuelled an "oil war" in the region that victimised "hundreds of thousands" of people.

web page

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: pk34th45 ]


From: The Netherlands | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 19 March 2008 08:19 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ready to agree that we're in the same boat yet, PK?
From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
pk34th45
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posted 19 March 2008 08:24 AM      Profile for pk34th45        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Noise:
Ready to agree that we're in the same boat yet, PK?


Well no, not really. You see despite the fact that both our countries have environmental and colonial sins, the Netherlands has:

1. Strong and enforced pro-labor laws.
2. Progressive policies on drugs, prostitution, euthanasia, homosexuality and crime.
3. Massive subsidies for public transport, health care, university education and agriculture.
4. Clean drinking water for everyone.

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: pk34th45 ]


From: The Netherlands | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 March 2008 12:44 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Norway also has those things, but that dosen't stop the Norwegian government from being dumb and ethnocentric when it comes to the Sami.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 March 2008 02:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
BTW, is there something particularly superior about Dutch laws regarding homosexuality, in comparison to Canada. Really out to sea on this one, but if there is a difference I would be interested to find out what is specifically being referred to.

I do know that Netherlands is unique in forwarding the first truly popular gay anti-immigrant, anti-labour ultra-rightist politician among the western "democracies", Pim Fortuyn.

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 March 2008 03:03 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, what a story cueball, and he was murdered [b]shot[b] even, imagine that!
quote:
On May 6, 2002, at age 54, he was assassinated in Hilversum, North Holland by Volkert van der Graaf. The attack took place in a parking lot outside a radio studio in Hilversum, where Fortuyn had just given an interview. This was nine days before the elections for the lower house of Parliament, for which he was running. The attacker was pursued by Hans Smolders, the driver of Pim Fortuyn, and was arrested by the police shortly afterwards, still in possession of a gun.

Months later, Volkert van der Graaf confessed in court to the Netherlands' first modern age political assassination (excluding WW II events), possibly the first since the lynching of the De Witt brothers in The Hague in 1672. Van der Graaf said: "I confess to the shooting. He was an ever growing danger who would affect many people in society. I saw it as a danger. I hoped that I could solve it myself." Van der Graaf was sentenced to 18 years in prison.

The assassination shocked the Netherlands and made the cultural clashes within the country apparent.



From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 March 2008 03:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is that age old thought experiment question... "if you had the opportunity to kill Hitler when he was young, would you do it, and if so, would you have the right to do so, morally speaking?"

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 19 March 2008 03:23 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"He was an ever growing danger who would affect many people in society. I saw it as a danger. I hoped that I could solve it myself."
Interesting that this is exactly the reason why police officers are commended for killing people. The difference seems to be whether you are mandated by the State or not - and whether you stop a rich and successful politician or a no-name in distress.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 March 2008 03:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They have errected monuments in his honour, at the public expense, I believe.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 March 2008 03:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I mean monuments to Pim Fortuyn, not his assassin.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 March 2008 04:37 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
They have errected monuments in his honour, at the public expense, I believe.

Are you sure about that?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 19 March 2008 04:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is this.... perhaps it was donated... by Shell Corp. or something.

[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 19 March 2008 04:41 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting that, for some moral pundits, assassinating one political opponent is monstrous in some countries, while doing the same to hundreds is sad but apparently necessary in others - Palestine, Colombia...

quote:
January 8, 2008
Endorsing Death Squad Economics
Canada's Lightning Speed Trade Negotiations with Colombia
by Jennifer Moore, The Dominion

“Why is it ridiculous to ask that human rights be respected in order to do free trade with Colombia?” asked award-winning Colombian journalist Hollman Morris during an interview on national public radio in Canada a couple of weeks ago.

Morris was reflecting on Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s comments made in Bogotá this past July where he announced the launch of three-way free trade negotiations with Colombia and Peru.

During a press conference with President Alvaro Uribe, Harper said that Canada is prepared to negotiate with Colombia despite being facing the worst humanitarian disaster in the hemisphere according to the UN. Alluding to US Democrats currently blocking approval of the US-Colombia free trade agreement, he stated, “We are not going to say, 'Fix all your social, political and human-rights problems and only then will we engage in trade relations with you.'” (...)

In 2006, there were 72 reported killings of trade unionists. Over the course of the Uribe administration, four hundred union officers and rank-and-file members have been murdered and of these crimes there have been only seven convictions, says a statement released this month by the Canadian Labour Congress (CLC). (...)


[ 19 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 20 March 2008 05:39 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well this is a side of Dutch society I had no idea existed...

quote:
Sometimes when I talk openly about some social illnesses around the world I receive letters, blaming me for the position I hold, and putting under suspicion the credibility of the displayed facts and sources. It's always easier to blame the messenger for the bad news instead of trying to fix the situation. I emphasize on the fact that the Netherlands Antilles is one of the money-laundering centers and also a transshipment point for South American drugs bound for the US and Europe. Before blaming me for this position, I should advice my future critics to look at the CIA World Factbook. There are of course other things to be fixed in these islands, but we will mention them later.


Netherlands Antilles: Uncertain Future

It would seem that the Dutch intend to foist of their problem Islands, having properly scooped what they can, and now intend to run for mother Europe once again, maintaining overall sovereignty while leaving the Islands themselves in the hands of local drug lords and other international crime figures.

[ 20 March 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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