A review of the book in the American Historical Review by Rhodri Jeffreys-Jones includes the following passages:

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The International Rescue Committee (IRC) was the product of a fusion, in 1942, between the International Relief Association (founded in 1933) and the Emergency Rescue Committee (1940). The prime purpose of these earlier organizations had been to rescue people from the clutches of the Nazis. American Communists or former Communists, notably Jay Lovestone, had been prominent in the effort. Their left-wing credentials gave them the advantage of having a network of contacts among the European socialists who provided the backbone to the ill-fated attempts to resist the rise and triumph of Hitler. Once the IRC had been set up, these United States socialists, or former socialists as they had mainly become, proved to be useful to the American war effort. They rubbed shoulders not only with people, like Norman Thomas, who were still socialists but also with a whole variety of individuals who, for their own reasons, took an interest in refugees: William J. Donovan and William Casey of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), Reinhold Niebuhr, and Eleanor Roosevelt. As time passed, the functions of the IRC diversified to encompass not just humanitarian goals but also the recruitment of talent from formerly autocratic regions of Europe, the organization of Cold War propaganda and covert operations, and the pursuit of anticommunism worldwide through such pseudo-governmental agencies as the Friends of Vietnam….

Bodies like the Ford Foundation, Princeton's Institute for Advanced Study, the Psychological Strategy Board, the CIA, and the European Cooperation Administration (set up to administer the Marshall Plan) were linked to each other and to the IRC by a web of individuals such as Richard Bissell, who served on several of the committees, and by the overriding goal of stopping Communist expansion.

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Eric Chester's important recent volume, Covert Networks: Progressives, the International Rescue Committee and the CIA, offers a well-researched perspective on one of the most interesting Cold War (and post-Cold War) operations linked on one side to favorite causes of prominent liberals and on the other to assorted intelligence agency projects...The International Rescue Committee [IRC] became a central mechanism--through its spin-off American Friends of Vietnam [AFVN]--for selling the impending Vietnam War to the U.S. public...The young Daniel Patrick Moynihan, working as its public relations officer, had described the IRC as the `ideal instrument of Psychological Warfare.'

The IRC was subsequently involved directly or indirectly in a shef [?] of other operations...As during the U.S. saturation bombing in Southeast Asia, the IRC followed U.S. trained and funded military forces decimating large districts of El Salvador...

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The IRC has consistently followed policies which have indeed coincided with U.S. foreign policy interests. It has operated in such geopolitical hotspots as Southeast Asia, Central America, Afghanistan, and Eastern Europe, conducting programs which have bolstered Washington's anti-communist activities...

Many of IRC's members have ties to the intelligence community, and at least one author calls the IRC "a long-time ally of the Central Intelligence Agency."

...In 1987, it received approximately 72 percent of its fundings from U.S. government contracts and grants...

In 1987, IRC received a $1 million grant from the National Endowment for Democracy [NED], which was appropriated by the U.S. Congress throught he Agency for International development [AID], to "assist the independent Polish trade union Solidarity..." ...Recently, IRC's major focus has been on the Afghan refugees...IRC has published 10 books for the National Endowment for Democracy-funded American Friends of Afghanistan [AFA]...

[Former IRC Chairperson] Leo Cherne [since-deceased] has a long history of intelligence connections. He served as a member of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board from 1973-1976, the chairman from 1976-1979, and most recently, served as the vice-chair on former President Ronald Reagan's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board...In 1954 Cherne sent a cable to a U.S. government official about the situation in Vietnam, "If free elections were held today all agree privately communists would win...Future depends on organizing all resources to resettle refugees, sustain now bankrupt government..." During the Reagan Administration, Cherne was involved in private fundraising efforts coordinated by the National Security Council aimed at disseminating propaganda supporting U.S. foreign policy.

William Casey [former IRC president] was one of the members of an IRC commission that visited INdochinese refugee camps in 1978 and advocated "a virtual open-door policy" for letting the refugees into the U.S. Under Reagan, Casey was head of the CIA until his death in 1987...

John Richardson [former IRC president} was the Assistant Secretary of State for Cultural Affairs from 1969-1977. He served as the head of the U.S. Information AGency's [USIA] Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty from 1961-1968. During those years, it was closely linked to the CIA...

The IRC was heavily involved in supporting the regime of Ngo Dinh Diem in Vietnam. In fact, the executive committee for the pro-Diem lobby, the American Friends of Vietnam, was virtually identical to that of the IRC. The strongest supporer of Diem in the group was former IRC official Joseph Buttinger...

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Thank you for the links, I am looking at them in great detail. I am sure that all NGO orgainzations have connections to one intelligence orgainzation or another,if not many.

I know of at least one former KGB agent working for the UN in Kabul or at least he was in 2006/7. He was quite open about his former profession.

Taliban spokesman:

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'Our mujahedin seized some of the ammunition from the destroyed vehicle,' he added.

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[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

I know villages turn in ammunition from time to time.

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

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'One of the enemy's vehicles was destroyed by a rocket-propelled-grenade shot, killing three foreigners, but the other vehicle managed to escape from the area,' Mujahid told dpa

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Love the theatrics of Peter Biro in yelling:

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'This is an outrage,'

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What is outrageous is his comments, in the face of the fact that apparently at least 1 of the "humanitarian" vehicles was being used to transport ammunition.

Petty Officer Second Class Sylvia Reid, now a member of Her Majesty’s Canadian Ship Regina, and Petty Officer Second Class Janet Sinclair, a member of the Maritime Forces Pacific Headquarters in Esquimalt, British Columbia, were each charged with one count of Sabotage, contrary to Section 130 of the National Defence Act, pursuant to Section 52 of the Criminal Code, one count of Conspiracy, contrary to Section 128 of the National Defence Act, one count of Mischief in Relation to Data, contrary to Section 130 of the National Defence Act, pursuant to Section 430(5) of the Criminal Code and one count of Wilful Property Damage, contrary to Section 116(a) of the National Defence Act.

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Originally posted by remind:
What is outrageous is his comments, in the face of the fact that apparently at least 1 of the "humanitarian" vehicles was being used to transport ammunition.

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Michael Kocher, IRC's vice-president of international programs, said “this was simply a murderous act against humanitarian workers — committed individuals who were there to assist the people of Afghanistan.”

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Originally posted by remind:
I guess you overlooked all the information provided by mspector in relation to the IRC, eh, AJ?

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Actually, colour me underwhelmed by M.Spector's reference to the CIA bogeyman.

More from these running-dogs of U.S. imperialism:

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IRC Press Release

18 Mar 2008 - The U.S.-led invasion of Iraq five years ago and its violent aftermath have produced one of the largest humanitarian crises of our time, yet the “Coalition of the Willing” has been mostly unwilling to own up to it and provide adequate aid for the innocent bystanders.

More than four million Iraqi civilians are estimated to be uprooted by horrific violence and in dire need of help in a crisis that is largely hidden from the public and ignored by the international community, according to a report issued today by the International Rescue Committee’s Commission on Iraqi Refugees. The report, “Five Years Later, a Hidden Crisis,” is available at www.theIRC.org/iraqi-refugees.

. . .

“Neither the U.S. nor the rest of the world is paying sufficient heed to the crisis,” the report states, adding that help offered by the U.S., primarily, as well as other international and regional donors, has been paltry and halfhearted.

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I did not name the article, I only provide a link.

Sounds about how the Mujahedeen did it two decades back.

Also sounds reminiscent of all those stories that came out of the resistance in the Second World War. Everywhere.

Why the resort to cloak and dagger intrigue? War is hell, somebody said.

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

Clearly none of the posters on this thread knew her, as she was in no way a stooge for the Canadian Forces/US imperialism as implied by many here.

I knew Jackie in Montreal many years ago and she was an intelligent, devoted and compassionate social justice activist and feminist. The Canadian leftwing community has lost one of its best.

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]

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Originally posted by Sara Mayo:
Clearly none of the posters on this thread knew her, as she was in no way a stooge for the Canadian Forces/US imperialism as implied by many here.

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I hope you're able to forgive people who curse and gloat over your now departed friend out of complete ignorance, masquerading as some kind of special political knowledge.

I have to say my initial reaction was one of mild shock at some of the attitudes here. Then a while later, a second shock. Why the Hell wasn't I totally shocked?

I think its a tragedy that this has happened and I feel especially badly knowing that at least one babbler has been personally touched by this atrocity.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
People can argue until their [sic] blue in the face about the various geopolitical issues at stake in Afghanistan - but it is still one of the world's poorest countries and those individuals who are there trying to make difference in peoples lives by getting involved in development and education programs are not there to take sides.

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The fact is that international aid agencies all over the world have become intertwined with imperialist espionage and subversion campaigns. I've posted above plenty of information to confirm that this is the case with the particular agency in question, and Webgear the soldier confirms that this comes as no surprise to him.

Particularly in Afghanistan, aid workers have complained that humanitarian assistance has been so heavily militarized by Canada and other NATO nations that, rightly or wrongly, the lines between combatant and relief worker have been blurred. That's why so many aid agencies have pulled out of Afghanistan altogether, for fear for the safety of their workers. The problem is so severe that only last week NATO and aid agencies agreed to a set of guidelines aimed at reversing the tide of increased integration of aid and military operations.

The fact that many humanitarian relief workers are well-meaning, caring, and brave people (as are many military people) only makes the current situation that much more tragic, because they are paying with their lives and bodies for the geopolitics and incompetence of their political masters.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
The fact that many humanitarian relief workers are well-meaning, caring, and brave people (as are many military people) only makes the current situation that much more tragic, because they are paying with their lives and bodies for the geopolitics and incompetence of their political masters.

Sorry if that shocks anyone.

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You would prefer to remain in ignorance rather than to understand why the Taliban would open fire on an international aid vehicle. That way, you can comfort yourself in your cartoon-like view of the Taliban as being simply evil savages - end of story.

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There is nothing cartoon like - the facts speak for themselves. We are dealing with people who proudly stone women to death for the slightest infractions, believe that gays and lesbians should be crushed to death under collapsed walls, support execution of anyone who tries to teach women any literacy skills, have in the past banned such things as music and kite-flying - and now they blatantly shoot a group of women working on education projects dead at point blank range - apparently pumping DOZENS of bullets into each one. If you think any of this isn't true and that taliban are actually a bunch of progressive social democrats who believe in women's rights - please enlighten us.

Some things don't require explanation or understanding. When right-wing death squads in El Salvador raped and murder a group of Americans nuns, I felt fully able to be saddened and to express regret and horror and I felt no great need to understand what would make someone join a right-wing para-military group and want to rape and murder nuns. I also don't need to stop short of condemning the Holocaust on the grounds that maybe the Nazis had valid reasons for wanting to kill six million Jews.

Two wonderful progressive Canadian woman have been murdered in cold blood. Is it too much to ask for even the slightest expression of sympathy before asking us to sympathize with and understand the motives of their killers and to only see this through some sort of Manichean CIA vs. the rest of the world prism???

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

There is nothing cartoon like - the facts speak for themselves. We are dealing with people who proudly stone women to death for the slightest infractions, believe that gays and lesbians should be crushed to death under collapsed walls, support execution of anyone who tries to teach women any literacy skills, have in the past banned such things as music and kite-flying - and now they blatantly shoot a group of women working on education projects dead at point blank range - apparently pumping DOZENS of bullets into each one. If you think any of this isn't true and that taliban are actually a bunch of progressive social democrats who believe in women's rights - please enlighten us.
[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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I believe that whoever killed these unfortunate aid workers must have mistaken them for a military target. It's a risk that people who insert themselves into war zones very knowingly take. I feel far more sympathy for the Afghans who live their and get murdered daily in air strikes and similar attacks, in the name of invader-imposed "democracy".

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The fact is, you support the killing of the evil Afghan savages

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Now that's what I call an evil slander.

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This is just another opportunity for the invaders and their supporters to vilify and dehumanize the Afghan insurgency.

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There are only two sides here, and you're on the other one.

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If in fact there are "only two sides" I guess that makes you Taliban? Are you now a supporter of stoning women to death for adultery and banning kite flying and music?

If your idea of the "heroic resistance of the Afghan people" is to have Taliban thugs purposely shoot two Canadian women working for an aid agency dead at point blank range - it speaks volumes.

I only hope you are being sarcastic because if you honestly feel that way, its pretty scary.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

If in fact there are "only two sides" I guess that makes you Taliban? Are you now a supporter of stoning women to death for adultery and banning kite flying and music?

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By your self-exposing "definition", I am indeed proud to be on the other side of Bush, Harper, and you.

You believe that the alternative to Western occupation is the stoning of women. It is quite understandable, then, why you would heap abuse and obscenities against all who oppose that occupation. But that still leaves you on the side of the aggressors.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
My favourite government is Sweden.

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STOCKHOLM, March 15 (Xinhua) -- Sweden will send more soldiers to reinforce its troops in Afghanistan, a senior defense official said Saturday.

The Swedish military force in the war-torn Afghanistan is expected to be increased from 350 soldiers to 500 within a year, said lieutenant general Anders Lindstroem, who is currently inspecting the Swedish garrison in Afghanistan.

The Swedish government has not yet approved the reinforcements, but Lindstroem is counting on them doing so, the Swedish public broadcaster Sveriges Radio (SR) reported.

Lindstroem hoped that the Swedish forces would stay in Afghanistan for a period of five to 15 years as some European countries usually stationed their troops in the Balkan region for 10-15 years.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
My favourite government is Sweden. I don't recall them playing any role in funding Taliban etc...

BTW: Taliban really is such a creature of the West and of the CIA - why do you feel the need to support them? I thought that being linked to the CIA was reason enough to be opposed to someone.

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you define all Afghans who cherish freedom and self-determination as "Taliban".

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Meanwhile in the real world - where exactly are these NON-Taliban heroic Afghan insurgents who cherish freedom and self-determination? So far it would appear that the people who are in armed conflict with the Karzai government are 100% Taliban. Period.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Meanwhile in the real world - where exactly are these NON-Taliban heroic Afghan insurgents who cherish freedom and self-determination? So far it would appear that the people who are in armed conflict with the Karzai government are 100% Taliban. Period.

It would be nice if the "insurgents" actually were made up of liberal-minded secularists who support human rights, democracy, equality, pluralism, social justice etc... But, there is not one scintilla of evidence that ANYONE in the insurgency could be described that way. On top of that we have no way of knowing what the people of Afghanistan actually want since Taliban was never elected and has never agreed to take part in any democratic process. I suppose you could argue that having more guns and soldiers automatically implies having majority popualr support. I'd rather see proof of that through the ballot box.

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On May 21, 2007, the Afghanistan House of the People suspended the parliamentary mandate of Malalai Joya for her entire term of office. They did so, allegedly, on the basis of a television interview in which she strongly criticized former warlords and others currently serving in the Afghan parliament charged with high-level corruption.

Ms. Joya has paid a heavy price for her outspoken remarks. According to the IPU Human Rights of Parliamentarians committee report of April 13, 2008, she has survived four assassination attempts and, due to threats made against her, never spends two nights in the same place. Despite these dangers, the Afghan authorities have apparently removed Ms. Joya’s security detail. According to the IPU Committee's investigation, "members of parliament have regularly criticized one another, but … no one else had been suspended on such grounds, even when Ms. Joya was called a 'prostitute' or 'whore' by fellow parliamentarians."

The expulsion of Ms. Joya silences an elected representative of the Afghan people. As the IPU statement underscores, her expulsion occurred without a time limit being set for the suspension. Parliament has ignored its own old and new Standing Orders in the application of its disciplinary action.

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RAWA is the oldest political/social organization of Afghan women struggling for peace, freedom, democracy and women's rights in fundamentalism-blighted Afghanistan since 1977.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

If in fact there are "only two sides" I guess that makes you Taliban? Are you now a supporter of stoning women to death for adultery and banning kite flying and music?

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No, we should send armies and slaughter Afghans until they bring back the right to fly kites.

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If your idea of the "heroic resistance of the Afghan people" is to have Taliban thugs purposely shoot two Canadian women working for an aid agency dead at point blank range - it speaks volumes.

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Whoever killed these people obviously mistook them for military targets. The Afghan people are not sadistic murderers like the U.S.-NATO air strikers and torturers of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. You are very confused.

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I only hope you are being sarcastic because if you honestly feel that way, its pretty scary.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
When you start listening to their voices I will believe you care about Afghan women, in the meantime Ready Aye Ready lets all play at the Great Game.

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Whoever killed these people obviously mistook them for military targets. The Afghan people are not sadistic murderers

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
When you hear new of Mahalai Joya joining forces with the Taliban and advocating suicide bombings in markets and the point blank assassination of aid workers - please let me know.

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RAWA believes that freedom and democracy can’t be donated; it is the duty of the people of a country to fight and achieve these values. Under the US-supported government, the sworn enemies of human rights, democracy and secularism have gripped their claws over our country and attempt to restore their religious fascism on our people.

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I am ashamed that we have troops in Afghanistan. The war will never end until the occupying forces leave. Every Afghan civilian murdered by NATO or young girl raped by the warlords and their paramilitaries merely creates more fighters.

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Before the Moscow-directed coup d’état of April 1978 in Afghanistan, RAWA’s activities were confined to agitation for women’s rights and democracy, but after the coup and particularly after the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in December 1979, RAWA became directly involved in the war of resistance. In contradistinction to the absolute majority of the vaunted Islamic fundamentalist "freedom fighters" of the anti-Soviet war of resistance, RAWA from the outset advocated democracy and secularism. Despite the horrors and the political oppression, RAWA’s appeal and influence grew in the years of the Soviet occupation and a growing number of RAWA activists were sent to work among refugee women in Pakistan. For the purpose of addressing the immediate needs of refugee women and children, RAWA established schools with hostels for boys and girls, a hospital for refugee Afghan women and children in Quetta, Pakistan with mobile teams. In addition, it conducted nursing courses, literacy courses and vocational training courses for women.

Demonstrations against the Soviet invaders and their stooges and later on against the fundamentalists, and unrelenting exposure of their treason and heinous crimes has been a hallmark of RAWA’s political activities. It was in consequence of its anti-Soviet occupationist struggle and agitation that RAWA was marked for annihilation by the Soviets and their cronies, while the Islamic fundamentalists vented their wrath on our organisation for our pro-democracy, pro-secularist and anti-fundamentalist stance. Our uncompromising attitude against these two enemies of our people has cost us dear, as witnessed by the martyrdom of our founding leader and a large number of our key activists, but we have unswervingly stood, and continue to stand, by our principles despite the deadly blows that we have been dealt.

For the purpose of propagating our views, aims and objectives, and to give Afghan women social and political awareness in regard to their rights and potentialities, RAWA launched a bilingual (Persian/Pashtu) magazine, Payam-e-Zan (Woman's Message) in 1981. Publication of this magazine is on-going and by-issues in Urdu and English for non-Persian/Pashtu speakers.

Since the overthrow of the Soviet-installed puppet regime in 1992 the focus of RAWA’s political struggle has been against the fundamentalists’ and the ultra-fundamentalist Taliban’s criminal policies and atrocities against the people of Afghanistan in general and their incredibly ultra-male-chauvinistic and anti-woman orientation in particular. Apart from the political challenges facing RAWA, tremendous social and relief work amongst unimaginably traumatised women and children lie ahead of us, but unfortunately we do not at the moment enjoy any support from international NGOs or governments, therefore we can't run our humanitarian projects as effective as we wish due to lack of funds..

The US "War on terrorism" removed the Taliban regime in October 2001, but it has not removed religious fundamentalism which is the main cause of all our miseries. In fact, by reinstalling the warlords in power in Afghanistan, the US administration is replacing one fundamentalist regime with another. The US government and Mr.Karzai mostly rely on Northern Alliance criminal leaders who are as brutal and misogynist as the Taliban.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Guess what? I oppose any Canadian military involvement in Afghanistan. But that doesn't mean that I have to be an apologist for Taliban - who I consider to be an utterly evil force. Taliban is evil - i just don't think it's Canada's responsibility to fight them.

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I agree to a point. I do think we have a responsibility to spread progressive, secular, humanist values so that all people can be free and equal. Our involvement in Afghanistan has nothing to do with that, of course, our government would just as soon support a brutal and corrupt dictatorship if it served the economic needs of the global corporations.

Given who the Taliban are and what they want, it is understandable that they did what they did, if they did it. (you never know, could have been a false flag operation). That doesn't absolve them from being evil religious fruitcakes (like some Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and others), but it does call into question the common sense of any NGO that would send people into this area to thumb their nose at the Taliban.

Crying foul on the Taliban in this regard is like sticking a screwdriver into an electrical socket, then blaming the hydro company because you got shocked.

There is no military solution to this unless we want to flood the country with hundreds of thousands more troops and round up and summarily execute every suspected Taliban and sympathizer. Religious persecution and ethnic cleansing, anyone?

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Meanwhile in the real world - where exactly are these NON-Taliban heroic Afghan insurgents who cherish freedom and self-determination? So far it would appear that the people who are in armed conflict with the Karzai government are 100% Taliban. Period.

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The Taliban have the organization and outside support to lead the insurgency. The provide the best choice at the moment for those who want to oust the foreign occupiers. You can bet that not every insurgent is hard core Taliban.

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It would be nice if the "insurgents" actually were made up of liberal-minded secularists who support human rights, democracy, equality, pluralism, social justice etc... But, there is not one scintilla of evidence that ANYONE in the insurgency could be described that way.

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Most people on the puppet government side probably do not either. Those are not common Afghan values, and this civil war and foreign occupation are not the right way to change them.

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Unionist:
I don't give one damn how bad the Taliban are.

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I do. I think that their odious belief system should be extirpated right along with some other equally regressive religious fantasies common in the world.

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The Afghan people fighting against Canada and the U.S. and NATO enjoy my unqualified support, no matter what ideas they have floating around in their heads, and no matter how they treat each other.

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Not mine. What has my unqualified support is ending western military aggression in the region.

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Whoever killed these people obviously mistook them for military targets. The Afghan people are not sadistic murderers like the U.S.-NATO air strikers and torturers of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

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The Taliban have the organization and outside support to lead the insurgency. The provide the best choice at the moment for those who want to oust the foreign occupiers. You can bet that not every insurgent is hard core Taliban.

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When a group that fought both the Soviets and the Taliban tell me that the current government is corrupt misogynist and fundamentalist I will believe them.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Sounds just like what people said about the Khmer Rouge in the 70s. The moment they took power - the Sihanouk and human rights types supporters etc... were all murdered.

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It wasn't an endorsement of the Taliban, just an observation about why non-Taliban insurgents would be cooperating with the Taliban in response to your claim that it appears there are no non-Taliban insurgents.

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Given who the Taliban are and what they want, it is understandable that they did what they did, if they did it. (you never know, could have been a false flag operation).

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I agree. Western leaders and NATO heads under their command have already demonstrated that they are not above ordering the murder of innocent civilians ie. Gladio terror in furthering cold war era political agendas. Some even say there are, or have been parallel shadow governments acting under the very noble auspice of freedom and democracy. Except that it tended to be ordinary peoples freedom and democracy that was often trampled in the process. "They call it freedom when themselves are free"

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That doesn't absolve them from being evil religious fruitcakes (like some Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and others), but it does call into question the common sense of any NGO that would send people into this area to thumb their nose at the Taliban.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I agree. But i don't see RAWA expressing support for a Taliban restoration either.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Fuck off asshole ....

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Originally posted by Jerry West:
The question is, how to support progressive elements in Afghanistan and undermine the Taliban once the Afghans get their country back.

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Sorry, Jerry. Your posts are intelligent as always, but your conclusion is Western Superior Interference to ensure the Afghans get the "right" sort of government after we have ostensibly withdrawn. The word "Vietnamization" springs to mind.

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Originally posted by unionist:

....your conclusion is Western Superior Interference to ensure the Afghans get the "right" sort of government after we have ostensibly withdrawn. The word "Vietnamization" springs to mind.

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Not what I had in mind. Vietnamization was a military solution, and the interference I forsee may be characterized as Western, particularly if you want to characterize the Taliban as Eastern, but I prefer to think of it more as progressive in the sense that it would be in support of human rights and freedoms.

If one thinks that peace and human rights are strictly a Western thing, so be it.

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The fate of the Afghan people is the business of the Afghan people - alone. They must be left to it without preconditions.

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The occupying forces certainly should withdraw without preconditions. Any attempt to legitimate the invasion is bankrupt.

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Originally posted by unionist:
The Taliban were the government of Afghanistan for years before we invaded. Our duty was to sit back and do nothing, and let the Afghans work it out themselves....

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How well did that policy work, during the ten or so years it was tried?

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
RAWA ... They are the only group that has been fighting consistently against the fundamentalists in Afghanistan. .

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yep

whether it be aginast Taliban or the current Regime RAWA speaks out

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for peace, freedom, democracy and women's rights in fundamentalism-blighted Afghanistan

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[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I never implied that the aid workers got what they deserved. That's a vile slander.

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Well, it sure as Hell sounded like it to me.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
...I also don't go into a thread lamenting the death of Afghan children for no other reason than to make light of their deaths and to imply that they got what they deserved.

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Originally posted by MCunningBC:

Well, it sure as Hell sounded like it to me.

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it's probably best not to put words in peoples' mouth.

It is a favourite past time on babble, but it is disingenuous

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

Well put, Jerry.

Resonates like and refreshes Donne:

No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were.

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls: it tolls for thee.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

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Originally posted by TemporalHominid:
it's probably best not to put words in peoples' mouth.

It is a favourite past time on babble, but it is disingenuous

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Um, ... er, ... ah, ... right.

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Originally posted by MCunningBC:

How well did that policy work, during the ten or so years it was tried?

Would you recommend that this be the approach everywhere?

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Originally posted by Jerry West:
The occupying forces certainly should withdraw without preconditions. Any attempt to legitimate the invasion is bankrupt.

But, the fate of the Afghans is the business of all of us when it comes to human rights. None of us are truly free until everyone is free and regressive, anti-human rights regimes and movements all are dumped in the trash bin of history.

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Originally posted by unionist:

I believe that whoever killed these unfortunate aid workers must have mistaken them for a military target.

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You can not honestly believe that.

They were travelling in white Toyota Land Cruisers that were clearly marked as IRC vehicles, as humanitarian vehicles. Their policy was never to travel with weapons in the car, so there wouldn't be any doubt that they're a peaceful humanitarian organisation

Some pictures of NGO vehicles found in Afghanistan, including those used by IRC.

Very difficult to mistake these NGO SUVs as military vehicles.

Your allies "mistake" humble Afghan homes for Taliban command centres.

"Private security" mercenaries "mistake" Canadians for Al Qaeda.

And you're saying the less technologically equipped Taliban can't make the occasional mistake?

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
You're not worth having a discussion with. You only open your mouth to heap abuse on the heroic resistance of the Afghan people. There are only two sides here, and you're on the other one.

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That's the bloody problem.

Your manichaean dualism isn't any different than George W. Bush's.

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Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
Real progressives need to understand that issues are a little more nuanced than "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

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"Nuanced"? Stockholm? Supporting every single policy and action of the United States and Canada internationally without any exception whatsoever?

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Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
Real progressives need to understand that issues are a little more nuanced than "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

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The Talibanization of Pakistan-Afghanistan of the 1980's was deliberate and certainly not a democratic choice for citizens of either country. That our largest trade partners and their British and Saudi allies with the aid of a U.S.-backed military dictator in Pakistan did this does not give the same criminal western countries the right to impose on them today.

Democracy cannot be imposed on any country. And when it does happen, it's no longer a democracy.

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Shall will try and stick to the topic of this thread. We can discuss your other points in another thread if you want.

The Taliban statement posted earlier stated the AK-47 and RPGs were used to attack the IRC convoy.

I shall point out some facts.

1. The max range for hitting a moving target with an RPG is 150 meters, and the maximum effective range for an AK-47 is 300 to 400 meters.

2. Taliban tactics for ambush are to attack a target when the target is within 100 to 300 meters of the ambush force. However the minimum distance can be under 20 meters if the target is of importance.

3. The target is usually in the open in order to identify valuable targets within a convoy however the target is restricted to taking a straight path or limited defence maneuvers. For example a road with deep drainage ditches on both sides, the target can only drive down the road, and is only able to speed up or slow down.

4. Dozens of rounds hit the IRC vehicle indicating the Taliban were at close range and able to identified the aid workers.

5. Ambushes usually occur when the Taliban have knowledge of convoy passing through their area, and are there is time available to set an ambush up in time, this means the Taliban had warning of the IRC convoy approaching the ambush site before the attack occurred. Taliban do not usually wait around all day in order to ambush a random convoy because this would allow them to be discovered and destroyed.

6. NGOs never travel at night in rural areas, and are usually back at their camps before dusk at the latest. This attack had to happen in the daylight.

Conclusion

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Originally posted by Jingles:
Those aid agencies work hand in glove with the crusader armies. Their role is no different than that of the priest travelling with the Conquistador.

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I never thought of it that way. I guess its possible. I think if it was a false flag, then our side just sacrificed two innocent Canadians who were trying very hard to do right by Afghans.

Wez: They kill us, we kill them! Kill them! Kill them! Kill! Kill!

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"Nuanced"? Stockholm? Supporting every single policy and action of the United States and Canada internationally without any exception whatsoever?

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Actually I oppose virtually everything that the US is doing internationally right now. I oppose the invasion of Iraq. I oppose the Canadian military operation in Afghanistan.

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no one on this site and I mean no one supports the return of the Taliban

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"Unionist" does. He says that there are only two sides in Afghanistan - the pro-US puppet government or the "valiant, heroic insurgency" (which is 100% composed of the Taliban and nothing else).

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Unionist

Shall will try and stick to the topic of this thread. We can discuss your other points in another thread if you want.

The Taliban statement posted earlier stated the AK-47 and RPGs were used to attack the IRC convoy.

I shall point out some facts.

1. The max range for hitting a moving target with an RPG is 150 meters, and the maximum effective range for an AK-47 is 300 to 400 meters.

2. Taliban tactics for ambush are to attack a target when the target is within 100 to 300 meters of the ambush force. However the minimum distance can be under 20 meters if the target is of importance.

3. The target is usually in the open in order to identify valuable targets within a convoy however the target is restricted to taking a straight path or limited defence maneuvers. For example a road with deep drainage ditches on both sides, the target can only drive down the road, and is only able to speed up or slow down.

4. Dozens of rounds hit the IRC vehicle indicating the Taliban were at close range and able to identified the aid workers.

5. Ambushes usually occur when the Taliban have knowledge of convoy passing through their area, and are there is time available to set an ambush up in time, this means the Taliban had warning of the IRC convoy approaching the ambush site before the attack occurred. Taliban do not usually wait around all day in order to ambush a random convoy because this would allow them to be discovered and destroyed.

6. NGOs never travel at night in rural areas, and are usually back at their camps before dusk at the latest. This attack had to happen in the daylight.

Conclusion

Based on the facts above and information released in the press, it is highly likely that the Taliban knew the ambush was against an NGO convoy and not a military target. The Taliban purposely attack and killed NGOs.

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engaging in activities that support the regieme's infrastructure

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1. Supporting our "mission" more or less outright.

2. Well, maybe we should be peacekeepers or homebuilders or something, but don't get us wrong, we hate the Taliban, blah blah blah.

Things haven't changed that much, unfortunately. The "White Man's Burden" of shedding big fat tears for the victims of the Taliban, and then sending in the air strikes, is alive and well. It's both sickening, and frankly surprising, that some progressive people just don't get what Fidel said: You (meaning we) can't impose "democracy".

Will you punch your fist in the air with glee when they start trucking women into the stadiums to be stoned to death one by one (and let's face it, unless she manages to flee the country, Mahalai Joya and everyone else connected with RAWA will be first in line to publicly disemboweled).

Check out the threads on Georgian war crimes, on Georgian allegations of Russian crimes, and the main threads on the attack on Ossetia.

Can you say "two-faced"?

Edited to add: the most "entertaining" aspect of this is that when I called Stockholm on the above cruel indifference, he retreated to a "plague on both your houses" speech. It must be interesting to be able to jettison one's principles so easily. Ha ha. You crack me up pal.

[ 15 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

I think you have managed to set a babble record in terms of the number of threads you have started on the same topic (ie: Russia vs. Georgia) and yet that isn't enough for you. Now you have to try to make a thread about aid workers being murdered in Afghanistan into the 50th thread about Georgia.

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Stockholm: Maybe I should go into each and every thread about Georgia and start talking about the situation in Myanmar!

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I rather thought you did that anyway.

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I'm not the least interested in a pissing match with you.

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Stockholm:I guess people choose which nationalities lives they think are of any value.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
So, you would rejoice at the prospect of Taliban regaining power. Just wanted to make that perfectly clear?

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Like George Bush, you don't even recall that the pretext for invading Afghanistan was to capture Osama Bin Laden and dismantle Al Qaeda. Now it has become the inability of Afghans to govern themselves (too susceptible to radical non-White religions, don't you know), and their propensity for murdering their women. You. like the bloodthirsty invaders, call everything that resists "Taliban", but we can all read between the lines.

You and your pretend caring about Afghan women are not worth debating. You just can't dredge up a progressive instinct on any issue.

Increasingly, your bombastic rhetoric is failing even to stir enough disgust among fellow babblers to warrant a decent thread derailment.

I don't buy into your Bush-style "you're either with us or you agin' us" garbage.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
You just can't seem to get it through your head that I can oppose Canada's military role in Afghanistan and yet also be disgusted by everything that Taliban represents.

I don't buy into your Bush-style "you're either with us or you agin' us" garbage.

Its too bad that in Afghanistan, there are no "good guys" choosing between the Karzai government and the insurgency that is 100% made up of Taliban is like chossing between cyanide and arsenic.

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I've said from the start. There is no reason for Canada to be in Afghanistan and i want our troops home.

But that doesn't mean I'm supposed to yell hip-hip-hooray as Taliban religious thugs come back to power and start disemboweling every member of RAWA they can get their hands on.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
So, you would rejoice at the prospect of Taliban regaining power. Just wanted to make that perfectly clear?

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Moreover, you made a extreme "either/or" scenario of the type you have decried against in respect to yourself, here in this thread, even.

These type of recent actions of yours, and others here, reminds me of the arguments here, and elsewhere in forum world, in the lead up to the USA invading Iraq and throughout the early stages of it, until they realized what fools they were making of themselves with their erroneous words.

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Will you punch your fist in the air with glee when they start trucking women into the stadiums to be stoned to death one by one

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I reject this perceptual framework you are trying to create, while stating that others are doing that to you. Sounds like the Lies masking as Truth that the USA, and currently Georgia are mouthing, in respect to Russia.

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(and let's face it, unless she manages to flee the country, Mahalai Joya and everyone else connected with RAWA will be first in line to publicly disemboweled).

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It is extremely doubtful that they would want to make martyrs out of them, and if they wanted Mahalai Joya dead, she would already be dead.

And I reject the perceptual framework that you are trying to create.

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Its easy to say that we should pay no attention and take no interest at all in the "internal affairs of other countries" and that if the Afghan government wants to commit even worse atrocities than its committing now -

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Also, you apparently do not see what you are saying when you say it. You just admitted that under our Canadian auspices, the Afghan government is committing autrocities, and apparently you think that is ok, given the blythe way you blew past that fact. As such, your comments/accusations towards others above and below, rings hollow, at best.

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we should just whistle a happy tune and say nothing.

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But I am a human being

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and people in Afghanistan are human beings

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and I have to say that it does bother me to see women, gays and lesbians etc... being tortured to death.

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It would appears you have seen many, many, of the listed people above tortured to death, then eh?! How magnanimous of you to say it bothered you. Kinda trite, though, given it is actually people who we are speaking of, and not YOU, don't you think?!

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I guess compassion is what makes us human.

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I reject the perceptual framework that you are trying to create that states that people against the Afghan are not human, and all the other assorted slanderings that you are trying to achieve.

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Now, Stock, again a assaultive statement disguised as a question, that actually states that should anyone disagree with Canada being a colonial occupier of Afghanistan, they are women haters and want to see all Afghan women dead.

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You obviously haven't actually read what I've written. I AM AGAINST CANADA FIGHTING IN AFGHANISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The issue is not whether the war is justified or not - the argument is whether if we oppose the war that means that we have to cheer on the Taliban and and get sucked into this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" garbage.

That is all the only point I'm making.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
You obviously haven't actually read what I've written.

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quote:

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I AM AGAINST CANADA FIGHTING IN AFGHANISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The issue is not whether the war is justified or not - the argument is whether if we oppose the war that means that we have to cheer on the Taliban and and get sucked into this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" garbage.

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That is all the only point I'm making.

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I believe that one can oppose the war AND be nauseated by what Taliban represents. is that soooo difficult to grasp?

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Stock, you believe there is no other opposition to the colonial occupiers, other than the Taliban.

That means you believe that our occupation is all well and good with all other Afghans.

This means you are denying RAWA their voices, while pretending great compassion for them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I AM AGAINST CANADA FIGHTING IN AFGHANISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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You're against Canada losing in Afghanistan.

I'm in favour of Canada losing in Afghanistan.

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The issue is not whether the war is justified or not

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That's exactly the issue. And the war is justified. Just not your side of it.

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... the argument is whether if we oppose the war that means that we have to cheer on the Taliban...

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No, you and your team are always obsessing over who should rule Afghanistan. My team and I don't get involved in that. We just get the hell out.

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I believe that one can oppose the war AND be nauseated by what Taliban represents.

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You're opposed to the war because the Afghan people are winning.

Yes, we are all nauseated by what the Taliban represents. But some of us are also nauseated at bloodthirsty murdering White Christian Democrats who will keep killing people until the survivors understand that they must open their country to investment and resource plunder.

quote:

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Yes, we are all nauseated by what the Taliban represents.

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Oh my God!!! Glory, glory Hallelujah! Finally, Unionist has for the first time ever made even the most oblique negative comment about Taliban.

That's all I wanted to hear. Now I have nothing further to say on this topic. I have heard what I wanted to hear.