quote:

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In September, the UN Security Council will vote on whether to extend the ISAF mandate for the stabilization of Afghanistan. A Russian Njet would eliminate the legal basis of the operation, and the German parliament, the Bundestag, could hardly extend its mission for 3,500 soldiers, let alone boost the number of troops to 4,500 as is currently planned. (Canada is spelled with a "C" - N.Beltov) Russia could make it more difficult to supply the troops in the Hindukush by banning NATO military aircraft from flying over its territory.

---

And now we have this:

quote:

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Speaking at a news conference at NATO headquarters in Brussels late on Wednesday, Dmitri Rogozin said, “Future cooperation [in Afghanistan] will depend on the alliance’s position in the Caucasus crisis. We are not satisfied either with NATO’s words or actions”, he said. Russia has already suspended all peacekeeping operations with NATO for at least six months and has frozen its participation in NATO’s Partnership for Peace program. Mr Rogozin said that Moscow so far had decided to continue supporting NATO operations in Afghanistan only because Russia was concerned by the worsening military and political situation in the Central Asian country accompanied by a continuing rise in extremism and illegal drug production. Earlier, Moscow agreed to allow non-lethal goods for NATO troops in Afghanistan to pass through Russian territory.

---

The article goes on to point out how the increasing heroin production is doing harm to Russia, increasing drug addiction in that country, and so on ...

quote:

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Since the Taliban regime was overthrown in the 2001 US-led campaign, Afghanistan has become the world’s leading producer of heroin. Afghanistan’s opium production increased from 6,100 tons in 2006 to 8,200 tons in 2007, according to the UN. The narcotics trade has become an acute problem for Russia and the Central Asian republics due to a continual flow of illegal drugs from Afghanistan. “We do not see any success [in NATO operations], but, only a degradation of the situation in Afghanistan, and that is why Russia decided to maintain its cooperation with NATO in this area”, he said. NATO’s International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) has about 53,000 troops operating in the country under a UN mandate to help give security support to the Afghan government and stop the flow of drugs from the country. However, despite international efforts, the Taliban, ousted from power after a US-led military operation in 2001, have stepped up their activities in recent months. The radical Islamic movement vowed to increase suicide and other attacks in order to undermine the authority of the current Afghan administration.

---

(See the previous thread for a link to the story.)

All of this may have a profound effect on the public debate in other NATO countries - especially those with troops that are fighting and being killed in Afghanistan. And a country in the middle of an election, as Canada might be, a change in the status of the NATO mission could be politically e-x-p-l-o-s-i-v-e.

Here's the previous thread.

[ 12 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

In reply, another commentator on a Russian political discussion board says the following: "In a piece that goes on about the Russian timing, to ignore the actual trigger event is pretty clever reasoning."

Clever, indeed. Or simply dishonest.

[ 04 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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Should I invest in vodka stocks or samavar production?

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The former is easy enough; I've tried to invest in Samovars without much luck, of course it'd be easier if I was into using the internet for financial transactions.

quote:

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Stanley10: Should I invest in vodka stocks or samavar production?

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Why not try investing in slightly used surplus US military equipment? The Russians must have a glut of it, what with the way the US proxy Georgian military ran away at the first sign of a fight, and it's probably "nearly new" or barely used.

quote:

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The commission comments that the list is provisional, since identification of bodies and sites of burial is very time-consuming: many bodies are largely fragmented due to the nature of weapons used against residential areas; many people could not properly bury their relatives and neighbors during the continuing military action — they often buried them in their backyards or along roadsides. Thus only those whose identity was confirmed are in the list. So far, there are 311 names with a short description of the cause of death and place of burial.

---

It's true. When people are blown to pieces, using cluster weapons for example, it's very hard to identify whose body parts are remaining. And Human Rights Watch won't recognize them in any case.

Here's the provisional list in Russian. Check back for updates.

Here's the provisional list in English.

The list is too long to display here ... but it's too important NOT TO display.

quote:

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1. Ataev Alan Muratovich, 1971 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

2. Kelehsaev Murzaba V. , 1944 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

3. Petoev Albert S., 1943 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

4. Pliev Tamaz Sulikoevich, 1965 D. O. B. South Ossetian OMON police officer. Died during active duty. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

5. Melitoljan D., 1966 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

6. Valiev Aleksandr A. , 1946 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road.

7. Ostaev Tauret S., 1957 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Itrapis village.

8. Bosikov Guram H. , 1953 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

9. Tadtaev Sergey Lvovich, 1972 D. O. B. Burned in own car after it was shot by a Georgian tank. Buried on grounds of School No. 5.

10. Kozaev Suliko A. , 1940 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Itrapis village.

11. Kachmazov Vadim L. , 1970 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.

12. Chovrebova Valya, 1940 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.

13. Tedeev David Albertovich, 1988 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

14. Gazaev Valery M., 1957 D. O. B. Died during artillery strike on Satikar village.

15. Bagaev Nodar Grigorevich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

16. Dzhioev Mitya, 45 y/o. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Itrapis village.

17. Chovrebov Guram Ivanovich, 1948 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

18. Beteev Ivan Ilyich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

19. Hugaev Vasily Ivanovich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.

20. Bikoeva Liana Romanovna, 1957 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.

21. Habalova Liana Romanovna, 1964, D. O. B. Hit by shrapnel from artillery shell. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

22. Tadtaev Ruslan Zaurovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.

23. Kumaritova Tamara Tuganovna, 1923 D. O. B. Hit by shrapnel from artillery shell. Buried in Tbet village.

24. Harebov Tamazi Georgievich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

25. Tuaev Radion Vasilevich, 1987 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

26. Basiladze Linana Konstantinovna, 1926 D. O. B. Killed by a explosive mine.

27. Kabulov Alan Albogovich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

28. Habalov Tajmuraz Soltanovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Itrapis village.

29. Doguzova Lida Bagratovna, 1934 D. O. B. Died during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

30. Haradzishvili Angelina Dmitrievna, 1974 D. O. B. Killed during shelling of the city. Buried in Tbet village.

31. Chekhoev Abesalom B., 1967 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

32. Elbakieva Dina, 2005 D. O. B. Killed during shelling of the city. Buried in Tbet village.

33. Kabisova Jelza Zelimhanovna, 1966 D. O. B. Killed by shelling in Hetagurovo village.

34. Kadzhaev Vadim Vasilevich, 1966 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

35. Bestaev Vasily Gavrilovich, 1955 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

36. Gazzaev Genady Borisovich, 1982 D. O. B. Died during the conflict. Buried in a garden.

37. Sabanov Hamlet D., 1975 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

38. Kabulova Dusya Luarsabovna, 1927 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

39. Chovrebov Alan Dmitrievich, 1987 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

40. Bestaev Samson Sosoevich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

41. Bestaeva Anna Antonovna, 1941 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

42. Kozaev Abe, 55 y/o. Died when house was struck by artillery. Buried in a garden.

43. Bestaeva Maria Georgievna, 1941 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

44. Gabaraev Georgy Sokratovich g. r. , s. 1954 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

45. Gabuev Givi Mihajlovich, 1929 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

46. Alborov Valter Oneginovich, 1974 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

47. Bestaev Anzor Sedirovich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.

48. Dzhigkaeva Kristina Ruslanovna, 1997 D. O. B. Killed when tank shell exploded. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

49. Maldzigov Sevastia Stepanovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

50. Kuluhov Soslan Andreevich, 1946 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

51. Kozaeva Maria, 76 y/o. Burned in home during shelling. Buried in a garden.

52. Gojaev Vitaly Vasilevich, 1990 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

53. Mamiev Amiran Nikolaevich, 1941 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.

54. Dzhioev Botaz Davidovich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

55. Bagaeva Olesya Givievna, 1983 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

56. Kozaev Valery Ivanovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

57. Bitarov Uruzmag, 1950 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

58. Hachirova Manana A. , 1955 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

59. Dzhussoev Mair Zaurovich, 1971 D. O. B. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.

60. Dzhussoev Aslan Mairovich, 15 y/o. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.

61. Dzhussoeva Dina, 14 y/o. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.

62. Bigulaev Viktor I. , 1952 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

63. Kozaev Valery Ivanovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

64. Koroeva Lamzira Zaurovna, 1968 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

65. Gagloev Tajmuraz Antonovich, 1952 D. O. B. Burned in car after it was shelled by Georgian troops Buried in a garden.

66. Hubezhov Tajmuraz Sh, 1959 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

67. Dzhioeva Palina Sh., 1955 D. O. B. Killed in shelling of Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

68. Bikoev Efim Sergeevich, 1938 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

69. Kelekhsaeva Tasya Sobaevna, 1924 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

70. Gagloev Azamat Tajmurazovich, 18 y/o. Burned in car after it was shelled by Georgian troops. Buried in a garden.

71. Gubaev Vladimir Georgievich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

72. Kachlaeva Zarina, 16 y/o. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

73. Bazzaev Vasily Vladimirovich, 1947 D. O. B. Burned in his own house when it was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

74. Dzhioev Renat Gergievich, 1980 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

75. Tibilov Inal Revazovich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

76. Gagieva Zarema Gajozovna, 1961 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.

77. Dzhigkaeva Inga Sergeevna, 1966 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

78. Beteev Inal Aleksandrovich, 1955 D. O. B. Died from wounds sustained during artillery bombardment of Tskhinval. Buried in Tbet village.

79. Tedeev Valerian T., 1972 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

80. Tedeeva Tamara Borisovna, 1947 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.

81. Chovrebov Aslan Jurevich, 13. 01. 1985 D. O. B. Died during active duty. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

82. Dzeranov Auzbi Zaharevich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

83. Habalov Batyrbeg Vasilevich, 1941 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

84. Gobozov Merab Georgievich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

85. Tekhov Muharbeg Jakovlevich, 1977 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

86. Shanazarova Albina Chorshanbievna, 14 y/o. Shot by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road.

87. Kuduhov Ramazi I. , 1982 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

88. Kozaev Shota Nikolaevich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

89. Gagloev Murat Vasilevich, 1936 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

90. Chovrebova Malvina Borisovna, 1960 D. O. B. Pregnant. Died of a Georgian shell explosion. Buried in a garden.

91. Kokoev Vitalik Vardanovich, 1950 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

92. Tedeev Anatolij Tengizovich, 1960 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

93. Alborov Otar Gerasimovich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

94. Dzhatieva Zalina H. , 1958 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

95. Valieva Madina Dzambolatovna, 01. 01. 1988 D. O. B. Died from Georgian sniper bullet. . Body had been hidden. Found by ‘Vostok Battalion’ troops. Buried in Djava.

96. Siukaev Anatolij A. , 1958 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

97. Tedeev Vasily Muhtarovich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

98. Kisiev Ibragim Felikosvich. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.

99. Doguzov Leonid Nikolaevich. Died during artillery strike on Satikar village.

100. Parastaev Aleksandr Aronovich, 1958 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

101. Valiev Ruslan Vladimirovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

102. Bestaev Ushang Mihajlovich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.

103. Gabaraeva Lyubov Georgievna, 1930 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.

104. Gazaev Yury Konstantinovich, 1957 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

105. Doguzov Guram Konstantinovich, 1945 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .

106. Loloev Otar Garsevanovich. Died in artillery strike on Dmenis village.

107. Hatdziev Suliko Utievich. Died in artillery strike on Dmenis village.

108. Cahilov Aslan Vladimirovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

109. Hubaev Valik Mihajlovich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

110. Hubaev Amiran Vardenovich, 1937 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

111. Beteev Genady Borisovich, 1967 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

112. Gigolaev Boris Nestorovich, 1937 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

113. Nanieva Nina Ivanovna, 1956 D. O. B. Hit by shrapnel from artillery shell. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

114. Harebov Botaz Zaurovich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

115. Alborov Oleg Zaurovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

116. Valiev Valery Pavlovich, 1961 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

117. Dzasohov Vladimir Dzandorovich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

118. Maldzigov Gija Vladimirovich. Killed by artillery fire in Hetagurovo village.

119. Dzhioev Gergiej Alekseevich, 1943 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

120. Tadtaev Robert Sergeevich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

121. Kabisov Slavik Sardionovich, 1970 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

122. Maldzigova Evgenija Nikolaevna, 1927 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

123. Dzhabiev Hamlet Georgievich, 1974 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

124. Chertkoev Inal Nikolaevich, 1957 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

125. Bestaev Tengiz Nikolaevich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

126. Harebov Dmitry Dmitrievich, 1952 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

127. Tedeev Abe, 35 y/o. Killed during the conflict. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

128. Tedeev Vladimir Romanovich, 1948 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in the village of Kornis.

129. Dzhioev Radion Zurabovich, 1984 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

130. Bitiev Kazbek Borisovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in the village of Kornis.

131. Dzhagaev Radik Guramovich, 1983 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in the village of Kornis.

132. Tigiev Jeduard Kazbekovich, 1958 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

133. Dzhagaev Dzhumber Parmenovich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

134. Nartikoev David Borisovich, 1980 D. O. B. Died while guarding an entrance to the city. Buried in Djava.

135. Hubezhov Aleksandr Dmitrievich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

136. Dzhioev Malhaz Aleksandrovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

137. Dzhabiev Shaliko Gabaevich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in the village of Kornis.

138. Kozaev Alan Pavlovich, 1967 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

139. Cibirov Jemzar Rezoevich, 1967 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Dmenis village.

140. Chovrebov Hazbi Shalvovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

141. Alborov Leonid Zarbegovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Dmenis village.

142. Dudaev Alan Andreevich, 1962 D. O. B. Killed by shrapnel from artillery fire. Buried in Dmenis village.

143. Kotolov Soltan Ilyich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

144. Kulumbegov Hsar Grigorevich, 1945 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

145. Hugaev Sergey Sikoevich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

146. Bagaev Oleg Valikoevich, 1964 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

147. Petoeva Ruzana Mihajlovna, 1916 D. O. B. Killed by shelling in Hetagurovo village.

148. Gazaev Ibragim Hazbievich, 1990 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

149. Bestaev Aleksey Sergeevich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

150. Apaev Arsen Borisovich, 1964 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

151. Chekhoev Vladimir Vardanovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

152. Dzhabieva Zemfira Chermenovna, 1952 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

153. Sanakoev Jelbrus Kazbekovich, 1962 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

154. Bestaev Pavel Grigorevich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

155. Kodalaev Guram Ilyich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

156. Chovrebov Aleksey Vladimirovich, 1980 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

157. Sanakoev Petja Efimovich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .

158. Alborova Zalina Vladimirovna, 1963 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.

159. Arsoev Sadul Severjanovich, 1950 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

160. Kelehsaev Roland Vissarionovich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

161. Sabanov David Grigorevich, 1947 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

162. Dudaev Slavik Kazbekovich. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

163. Dzhioev Konstantin Zaurovich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

164. Bestaev Valery Sergeevich, 1970 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Tbet village.

165. Kumaritov Valery Kuzmich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

166. Tadtaev Dmitry Vjacheslavovich, 1983 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

167. Habalov Givi Vasilevich, 1961 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

168. Harebaty Zaur Vladimirovich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

169. Chandieva Valentina Sergeevna, 1976 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

170. Dzhioev Aleksey Sergeevich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

171. Kozaev Jelbrus (Muharbeg) Rutenovich, 1957 D. O. B. Hit by air strike on Tbet village. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

172. Gasseev Genady Nikolaevich, 1961 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

173. Zasseev Ruslan Grigorevich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

174. Tibilov Murat Ivanovich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

175. Tibilov Ivan Muratovich, 1941 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

176. Tibilov Vitaly Dzhumberovich, 1987 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

177. Ikaev Valery Vladimirovich, 1958 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .

178. Kabulov Givi Ivanovich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

179. Tedeev Volodja Matveevich, 1958 D. O. B. Hit by air strike on Tbet village. Buried in Jerco village.

180. Bolotaev Oleg Filippovich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .

181. Dzhioev Totyrbeg Ivanovich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

182. Lalieva Valentina Sergeevna, 1940 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road.

183. Puhaty Jedik Grigorevich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled hlebovoza. Buried outside his house.

184. Dzhioev Genady Muratovich, 1948 D. O. B. Killed by air strike. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

185. Kochiev Jedik Sergeevich, 1961 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

186. Gagloev Hamlet G. , 1972 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

187. Ikoty Zahar (Aleksandr) Borisovich, 1947 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.

188. Adzhiev Vadim Rutenovich, 1981 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

189. Lalieva Laida M. , 1979 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

190. Kokoev Dzhemal Revazovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.

191. Kozaev Zelim Tutievich, 1975 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

192. Bjazrov Ludwig Hazbievich, 1970 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

193. Kozaev Lev Aleksandrovich, 1987 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

194. Kochiev Pavel Grigorevich, 1949 D. O. B. Killed by a Georgian sniper during evacuation on Zarskoi road. .

195. Dzhioev Gocha Georgievich, 1965 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Dmenis village.

196. Pliev Aleksandr Sergeevich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

197. Bestaev Pavel Vardanovich, 1949 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

198. Gussalov Vasily Karamanovich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

199. Gagiev Alik Pavlovich, 1976 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

200. Gassiev Barsag Zaharovich, 1985 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

201. Vazagov Gajoz Davidovich, 1942 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Dmenis village.

202. Kochiev Acamaz Anatolevich, 1978 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

203. Dzhioev Muhar Sergeevich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

204. Gussalov Nikolay Vladimirovich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in a garden.

205. Kochiev Murat Davidovich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

206. Gabaraev Fedor Georgievich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.

207. Dzoloev Nodar Nikolaevich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

208. Guzzitaev Rafik Moiseevich, 1957 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

209. Kadzhaeva Jelina Kazbekovna, 1986 D. O. B. Wounded while the city was shelled. Buried alive in her house. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

210. Kadzhaev Zelim Zaurovich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

211. Tebloev Chermen Petrovich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

212. Tuaev Alan Ilyich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

213. Gabuev Amzor Sosikoevich, 1940 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

214. Gagloeva Larisa Valikoevna, 1974 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

215. Loloev Slavik Sulikoevich, 1954 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

216. Gagloeva Fatima Gavrilovna, 1948 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

217. Tedeev Tolik Ivanovich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

218. Ostaev Shalva Jeduardovich, 1973 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

219. Sanakoeva Aza Aleksandrovna, 1948 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

220. Tedeev Ibragim Gazanovaich, 1965 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Tbet village.

221. Tuaev Vasily Sergeevich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

222. Alborov Vladimir Gersanovich, 1948 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

223. Valiev Luarsab Garitaevich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

224. Bibilova Neli Alekseevna, 1938 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.

225. Kadzhaev Tajmuraz Fedorovich, 1964 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

226. Bikoev Anatolij Dmitrievich, 1952 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

227. Gazzaev Vladik Albertovich, 1972 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in a garden.

228. Alborova Natela Zaurovna, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

229. Hubaev Givi Davidovich, 1962 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Dmenis village.

230. Dzhioev Azamat Gamatovich, 1993 D. O. B. Died during shelling of the city. Place of burial unknown.

231. Lalieva Irina Borisovna, 1966 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

232. Tedeev Pavel Ivanovich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

233. Muldarov Gajoz Grigorevich, 1972 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

234. Chovrebov Vladimir Inalovich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

235. Guzzitaev Tamerlan Jasonovich, 1968 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

236. Bestaev Nikolay Gavrilovich, 1939 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

237. Dzhagaeva Liza Sandroevna, 1945 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

238. Ikoeva Roza Viktorovna, 1936 D. O. B. Killed during shelling of the city. Buried in Tbet village.

239. Goginov Robert Tengizovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

240. Tasoev Botaz Georgievich, 1946 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

241. Kelehsaev Zahar Sardionovich, 1940 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

242. Bagaev Feliks Jasonovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

243. Dzhioev Jelbrus Semenovich, 1973 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

244. Kadzhaev Soslan Kavkazovich, 1978 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

245. Guzitaev Zviad Nikolaevich,1974 . D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

246. Sabanov Hvicha Mihajlovich,1961 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

247. Gucaev Valery Tasolovich, 1949 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

248. Kachmazova Lena, 56 y/o. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

249. Besaev Alan Anatolevich, 1986 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

250. Dzhidzhoev Mitya Amiranovich, 1954 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.

251. Sanakoev Vladimir Kubadievich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.

252. Sabanov Vasily Fedorovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

253. Kachmazova Zaira, 58 y/o. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

254. Gabaraev Vladimir Dmitrievich, 1972 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

255. Gigolaev Vadim Georgievich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

256. Kulumbegov Radik Georgievich, 1966 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

257. Bekoev Alan Tuzarovich, 1974 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

258. Abaeva Manana Georgievna, 1966 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

259. Dzagoev Nodar Grigorevich, 1959 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

260. Dzigoev Alan Zurabovich, 1974 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

261. Abaeva Lejla (Zhuzhu) Pavlovna. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in a courtyard between apartment blocks.

262. Dzhioev Navroz Muhtarovich, 1953 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village. Place of burial unknown.

263. Dzigoev Albert Shotaevich, 1982 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

264. Babaev Omar Lentoevich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by a BM-21 Grad rocket. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

265. Asaev Valery Arshakovich, 1955 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

266. Kabulov Acamaz Tajmurazovich, 1988 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

267. Dzhioev Maharbek Chakoevich, 1946 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

268. Bestaev Hazbi Dmitrievich, 1933 D. O. B. Killed when a tank shot his apartment building. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

269. Dzhioev Almurat Aleksandrovich, 1976 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

270. Bagaeva Svetlana Georgievna, 1975 D. O. B. Car hit by artillery fire. Buried in the courtyard of his apartment block.

271. Zasseev Anatolij Filippovich, 1948 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village. Place of burial unknown.

272. Kochieva Madina Chermenovna, 1963 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

273. Kumaritov Lev Hristoforovich, 1962 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

274. Tadtaev Georgy Pavlovich, 1986, D. O. B. Killed when a tank shot his apartment building. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

275. Gagloev Jedik Nikolaevich, 1954 D. O. B. Car hit by Georgian tank fire in Tbet village. Sgorel. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

276. Dzebisov Vladimir Ilyich, 1950 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

277. Gugkaev Alan Alanovich, 1977 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

278. Valiev Mihail Kuzmich, 1958 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

279. Tibilova Zalina Nikolaevna, 1956 D. O. B. Burned. Car was hit by a Georgian tank shell in Tbet village. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

280. Kokoev Leva Jashaevich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

281. Gasseev Vitaly Nikolaevich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

282. Beteev Auzbi Borisovich, 1972 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

283. Kadzhaeva Liana Sergeevna, 1960 D. O. B. Burned. Car was hit by a Georgian tank shell in Tbet village. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

284. Tekhov Vladimir Alekseevich, 1975 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

285. Bigulaev Zaurbeg Davidovich, 1955 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village.

286. Gubiev Jakov, 1930 D. O. B. Killed by Georgian sniper fire. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

287. Muldarov Zelim Efimovich, 1964 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

288. Valiev Yury Vladimirovich, 1956 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

289. Gagiev Valery Vladimirovich, 1978 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

290. Chovrebov Sevastjan V. , 1937 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village.

291. Kumaritova Madina A. , 1938 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

292. Chibirov Vilen Valikoevich, 1975, D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

293. Kachmazov Igor Jurevich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

294. Karkusov Feliks V. , 1940 D. O. B. Hit by shelling in Tbet village.

295. Gagiev Givi Grigorevich, 1942 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

296. Magkoeva Aza Pavlovna, 1949 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

297. Dzhabiev Vladimir Iosifovich, 1953 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

298. Kulumbegov Georgy Anatolevich, 1976 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

299. Kisieva Dunja Iraklievna, 1940 D. O. B. Killed in shelling of Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

300. Hubaev Murat Arsenovich, 1963 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

301. Kotaev Soslan Sadulovich, 1948 D. O. B. Killed by a tank shot. . Buried in courtyard of apartment block.

302. Bibilov Alan Georgievich, 1960 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Bibyltykau village.

303. Gabaraev Genady Matveevich, 1951 D. O. B. Killed during the conflict. Place of burial unknown.

304. Dzhigkaeva Lidija Vasilevna, 1947 D. O. B. Killed when house was shelled. Buried in Vladikavkaz.

305. Kuduhov Vsevolod Ilyich, 1947 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper. Buried in Dmenis village.

306. Bazzaeva Zhenja Gavrilovna, 1940 D. O. B. Killed in shelling of Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

307. Dzhabiev Albert Vasilevich, 1976 D. O. B. Killed in the conflict. Buried in Rustau village.

308. Parastaev Lev Pavlovich, 1949 D. O. B. Killed when a car was shelled. Buried outside his house.

309. Kabisov Vasily Sosoevich, 1936 D. O. B. Killed by artillery fire on Zarskoi road. Place of burial unknown.

310. Bolataeva Zemfira Aleksandrovna, 1941 D. O. B. Fatally wounded by shelling. . Buried in Zguderskom cemetery.

311. Dzahov Valery Borisovich, 1987 D. O. B. Shot by a Georgian sniper during the conflict. . Buried in Tbet village.

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Eduard Kokoity, the President of South Ossetia: "I wonder how much more blood they want to see shed if we are already so few. How many more people do Georgian soldiers have to kill for the western leaders to be able to call it genocide?"

[ 05 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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59. Dzhussoev Mair Zaurovich, 1971 D. O. B. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.

60. Dzhussoev Aslan Mairovich, 15 y/o. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.

61. Dzhussoeva Dina, 14 y/o. Burned alive in car when Georgians covered it in petrol and set it alight. Buried in Nagutni.

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A thousand years will pass and the Ossetians will not forget what happened, nor will they forget who rescued them from complete extermination.

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Daniel Ortega's Nicaraguan government was the first. Others will follow.

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Cuba is continuing to send signals that Havana wants to strengthen its relationship with Moscow. State-run media on Thursday highlighted the arrival of Russian aid following Hurricane Gustav.

State television showed two huge cargo planes arriving at the José Martí airport, which serves Havana, at the top of its morning news broadcast. Cuban soldiers were seen unloading supplies. Such scenes have not been seen in Cuba since the Soviet Union collapsed.

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Human Rights Watch continues to spread, without presenting convincing proof, accusations of use of cluster bombs by the Russian Federation in the conflict with Georgia. HRW published two reports which supposedly show evidence of such use. As argued and documented here, that evidence does not hold up.

HRW has now issued a 'clarification', and admits that the supposed evidence in one of the two reports is false.

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quote:

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Peter Lavalle of Russia Today: The Russian side wants to know if the EU’s wonderful generosity with humanitarian and reconstruction aid also applies to South Ossetia – the targeted victim of Saakashvili aggression. And what about American and NATO aid? Why do military ships transport civilian aid? Why is the US and NATO using provocative means if their goals are merely humanitarian? Why is Dick Cheney kicking up dust when the EU talks the talk of moderation? Russia also will ask who will be the go-between for Moscow and Tbilisi. Moscow rightfully will not utter even a word directly to Saakashvili. I can see blank expressions from the great and proud EU delegation!

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Lavalle figures the EU representative may get an ugly surprise on Monday.

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All of this reminds me of a song by the Boomtown Rats: “I don’t like Mondays” If the EU miscalculates – and it is set to – this song might be remembered for a completely different reason.

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EU: “I don’t like Mondays”

[ 06 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

When western journalists start coming back from Tskhinvali, and telling their stories, I wonder if all this government aid from western countries, as Peter Lavalle points out, will also be forthcoming for the victims in Tskhinvali? And if not, why not?

Ralph Nader, the Green candidate in the USA for President, has come out and clearly blamed the US government for funding the huge military build-up in Georgia as a/the main factor in the Ossetian War.

By Charles Clover in Moscow and Demetri Sevastopulo in Washington

Published: September 5 2008 18:49 | Last updated: September 5 2008 18:49

The US military provided combat training to 80 Georgian special forces commandos only months prior to Georgia’s army assault in South Ossetia in August.

The revelation, based on recruitment documents and interviews with US military trainers obtained by the Financial Times, could add fuel to accusations by Vlad­imir Putin, Russian prime minister, last month that the US had “orchestrated” the war in the Georgian enclave..."
Financial Times

[ 07 September 2008: Message edited by: contrarianna ]

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The confirmation that the United States trained Georgia's special forces troops adds extra weight to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's suggestion that American citizens were directly involved in the South Ossetian conflict.

Putin said in an interview with CNN in August: “We have serious reasons to believe that American citizens were right at the heart of the military action. This would have implications for American domestic policy. If this is confirmed, we will have grounds to suspect that somebody in the U.S. has created this conflict to aggravate the situation and create a competitive advantage for one of the presidential candidates”.

On the same day that Putin made the statement the Russian Defence Ministry announced that a passport belonging to a Texan resident was found in a house which had been occupied by Georgian commandos.

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Putin's remarks

For support, he's taking along a Spanish fellow, a Portuguese lawyer, and some members of the Academie Francaise(just kidding).

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Stanley10:Mr Sarcozy(sic) is heading to Moscow tomorrow to find out what the French and Russian words mean on the vague cease-fire agreement which he signed.

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Considering that French President Sarcozy was one of the authors of the 6-point "vague agreement", one would think that he would have some understanding of what he signed. Ha ha. OTOH, judging by the conduct of his own UN Ambassador - who pretended not to understand the agreement that his own President authored and signed and took an agnostic position on the agreement - anything is possible.

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Actually, I hope they rewrite the whole bloody agreement so that it's clear to everyone and some real peacekeepers can get in there "tout de suite".

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The Russians were "real peacekeepers" ... right up to the point when they were killed by the Georgian troops who probably didn't want any witnesses to their atrocities in Tskhinvali. A few things are crystal clear on the Russian side: they will insist on a role for the Ossetians and Abkhazians (the UN Security Council, or certain of its NATO members anyway, REFUSED to even listen to the victims of the Georgian aggression); the latter will reject, probably in perpetuity, any role whatsoever of Georgian "peacekeepers" in policing the border between Ossetia and Georgia; they (the Russians) will insist on establishing an intermediary between themselves and the Georgian Saakashvili militarist regime since they consider Saakashvili a political corpse and refuse to meet directly with someone they consider a War Criminal; finally, the Russians may very well ask when the NATO countries will start to provide humanitarian assistance to the victims of the Georgian aggression in South Ossetia.

It could be a simple mistake by a member of Sarkozy's entourage? I believe the Russians are saying that there appear to be two different versions of the document, each signed by its respective government. Regardless, it sounds like a totally botched job.

Perhaps the author is wearing pilliwinks in the Bastille or drinking лучший vodka in Moscow.

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Stanley10: ... does the change from K to C mean anything to you?

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The French have been playing footsie already on this agreement. The French UN Ambassador refused to support what his own President had signed, or something like that. The 6-point agreeement is not, in any case, the only applicable document. There are agreements from 1992 and so on that also apply. And then there are the facts on the ground.

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The Russians have not been impartial, before or after, in this matter due to their strategic interests.

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quote:

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Russian, French presidents to hold talks on Georgia in Moscow
10:14 | 08/ 09/ 2008

MOSCOW, September 8 (RIA Novosti) - The presidents of Russia and France will hold a meeting in Moscow on Monday to discuss developments in the Caucasus following the recent South Ossetia conflict.

Ahead of the French president's visit, Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andrei Nesterenko said "Nicolas Sarkozy would like to continue discussing the developments in the Caucasus" with his Russian counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev.

Medvedev signed a six-point ceasefire deal during Sarkozy's visit on August 12, under which Russia was to pull its troops back to the positions they held before Georgia's August 8 attack on breakaway South Ossetia. However, Russia says the plan allows for a continued "additional security measures" in a buffer zone within Georgia proper.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the "amended" document signed by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili bears no relation to that signed by Russia. In particular, he said that plans for discussions on the regions' future status, included in the sixth point of the document, were removed from the amended text.

The French delegation also includes European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana. The group will later travel to Tbilisi.

Nesterenko said he was "not authorized" to comment on other issues to be on the Medvedev-Sarkozy agenda.

Moscow said hundreds of civilians were killed in Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, and thousands fled the devastated region.

Russia's General Staff said 64 servicemen were killed and 323 injured in its operation to force Georgia to peace in South Ossetia.

On August 26, Russia recognized South Ossetia and another Georgian breakaway republic, Abkhazia, as independent states.

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quote:

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First I've heard this

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April 22, 2008
"A Russian MiG 29 shot down what Georgians say was an unarmed drone used by the ministry of interior. And guess what? They've got video (the beauty of drone warfare). The Georgians, needless to say, are really mad." yada...yada

quote:

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This ceasefire agreement is about two grades below the Munich agreement.

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That's the neocon warmonger line ... comparing current events to the agreement the Brit PM signed in Munich in '38.

quote:

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Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has pledged that armed forces will be completely withdrawn from Georgian territory within a month. It follows a meeting with his French counterpart, Nicolas Sarkozy, in Moscow, to further discuss the plan for peace and stability in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Two hundred European Union observers are to be deployed in areas near the two territories. Ten days after their arrival, Russian forces will complete their withdrawal.

In addition, it was agreed that all Russian-manned observation posts along the line between the Black Sea port city of Poti and Sekaki to the north-east will be vacated within seven days.

Medvedev reaffirmed that the Russian decision to recognise Abkhazian and South Ossetian independence is irreversible.

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quote:

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Russia has received guarantees from the European Union and France as the EU president on the non-use of force by the Georgian side," Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told reporters after talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy and high-ranking EU representatives on Monday.

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Further to that

quote:

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Russia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia had long wanted the Tbilisi regime to sign a pact on the non-use of force. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili always refused, claiming he would never use force against his “own people.” The new agreement demands that Saakashvili sign such a document in the presence of the EU. Now the EU will make sure Saakashvili keeps his word.

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The EU has essetially agreed that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are not and will never again be part of Georgia. It's "a victory for the people of both and a vindication of Russian patience throughout the crisis."

[ 08 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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That's the neocon warmonger line

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quote:

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you

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Don't point that "you" at me bud.
I don't follow neocon theology.

quote:

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Stanley10: Don't point that "you" at me bud.

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It was a manner of expression only, Stanley10. And my point was that you were regurgitating the very argument that neocon Charles Kreuthammer had recently belched forth in one of his columns.

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I won't rejoice in Russia's re-emergence as a military power nor will I weep over the Empire's decline.

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If the Empire is in decline then it follows that someone else is in ascendancy, or something like that. You can't have the one without the other.

The US has, both with Democrat Clinton and the current Republican Dubya, over a number of years made it clear that the unipolar world is OFFICIAL DOCTRINE. Furthermore, ANY prospective rival is, in this view, worthy of a bombing, invasion, or assassination of a head of state, no questions asked. This is official doctrine and has been for some time. The fact that a US proxy received a well-deserved hiding, after carrying out atrocities following careful and expensive coaching from the US, is something to be celebrated.

The unipolar world is much more unstable than a multipolar world. This is because the unipolar world only lasts as long as the Empire enforces its will down the barrel of a gun. A multipolar world requires parties to negotiate, work things out, and recognize that the other guy has interests as well. The Americans have been conducting themselves, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, as if they are of the view that the Russians have no interests of any importance whatsoever. That view is now in smithereens, and rightly too.

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That is exactly why this agreement was so disturbing. It was so poorly written it bordered on naivety.

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It's remarkable then, Stanley10, that this "disturbing" and "poorly written" agreement, which is already being superseded by additional agreements in any case, got more attention from you based on spelling mistakes of the name of the French President than for any other "reason". Focus on trivia, much?

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The last thing anyone needs is two superpower's running into each other in a confined space.

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Saakashvili, the political corpse, may not even last out the year as President. That didn't take long, did it? Once martial law was lifted in Georgia, and opposition figures would not be shot for speaking against the government, the lid has come off the seething criticism of the militarist regime in Tbilisi ...

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Washington Post: As open war between Georgia and Russia has subsided into a tense standoff among world powers, Georgians inside and outside the government have begun to question the wisdom of the costly confrontation, and of the leaders who set it in motion....

... many here say that long before the war, the government used tensions over the breakaway regions to flout basic democratic principles, change the constitution to strengthen the ruling party, ignore judicial problems and suppress the media.

Such complaints helped spark massive protests here last November, which the government crushed with tear gas and masked troops wielding batons, staining Georgia's international image. Saakashvili ended the crisis by calling a snap presidential election; he won a second term, though with less support than in the previous election and with allegations of vote-rigging....

Several critics said they worried that speaking out too soon could undermine their chances of changing the leadership. "A lot of people are afraid that they could be arrested for treason," said a government official who recounted discussing with others in the government ways to challenge the administration. Sitting near an outdoor cafe called KGB: Still Watching You, he pushed his cellphone to the other side of the table, noting, "Now, everybody is quite silent, and moving away from cellphones."

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Some "democracy".

Meanwhile, the US is providing another $1 Billion in aid, no strings attached, which opposition figures are calling a huge mistake.

quote:

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Several, however, expressed fear that rather than feeling chastened by the war, the ruling party will interpret the $1 billion in aid pledged by the United States last week as a green light to continue its policies.

To offer the aid without conditions was "a mistake," Gamkrelidze said, adding that assistance should be tied to judicial, legislative, constitutional and media reforms. "He almost got us into a new cold war, or a third world war. It must be in the interest of the U.S. and European allies to make this country more democratic and more accountable."

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quote:

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Globe and Mail: "The Russians are right! We're wrong! Georgia started it, the Russians ended it," Rep. Dana Rohrbacher, a California Republican, told Assistant Secretary of State Dan Fried, who testified on administration policy to both the Senate panel and the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

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That's Republican Congressman Dana Rohrbacher who said that.

quote:

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In a separate hearing on Tuesday in the U.S. House of Representatives, several lawmakers from both parties criticized the Bush administration approach as anti-Russian and to the detriment of U.S. interests.

"Our friends in Russia are as important as our friends in Georgia. We must find a balance," said Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, a Texas Democrat. She said $1 billion dollars in aid for Georgia was "over the top" and hoped Congress would cut it.

"The Russians are right! We're wrong! Georgia started it, the Russians ended it," Rep. Dana Rohrbacher, a California Republican, told Assistant Secretary of State Dan Fried, who testified on administration policy to both the Senate panel and the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Mr. Rohrbacher said the situation with Georgia's breakaway regions was clearly analogous to Kosovo, which was part of Serbia until it declared independence in February with U.S. support. For U.S. officials to keep saying there was no correlation "undermines our credibility," he said.

---

US to pump up Georgian military again ANYWAY

What with Dick Cheney's bumbling trip to Azerbaijan recently, where he didn't even rate a meeting with the Azeri President (who, wisely, had better things to do) and failed to get the Azeri government to jump to orders barked at them to insult the Russians in some way, it's beginning to look a lot like an utter rout.

But, Geez, do the Russians have to run up the score so much?

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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If the Empire is in decline then it follows that someone else is in ascendancy, or something like that. You can't have the one without the other.

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However, I didn't mean to imply that the Russians ought to, or indeed desire to, replace the single dominant Empire. Medvedev's 5 points have made that very clear. From the point of view of the Empire, it looks like the ascendancy of a rival when the Empire is in decline. I should have made the point of view I was adopting more clear.

Thanks for the reminder. I wasn't clear enough. What I typed reads like a "zero sum" analysis ... which is a viewpoint that I don't share.

[ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Russian Army weaknesses revealed.

quote:

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The Russian Army primarily requires combat-support systems, rather than new weaponry, in order to become a genuinely modern and effective fighting force.

Those, who fought in the South Caucasus this August, know that Russian peace-keepers sustained the greatest casualties during the first hours of the Georgian aggression because Moscow and Vladikavkaz, where the 58th Army's headquarters is located, failed to promptly order troops to repel the attack and to send elements of the 58th Army to South Ossetia.

Moreover, Russian forces did not know the firing positions of Georgia's Grad multiple-launch rocket systems, Gvozdika self-propelled guns and T-72 tank units.

Nor did the Russian Army have any dependable reconnaissance systems, including unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs).

Although Russian and foreign UCAVs are regularly displayed at the annual MAKS international aerospace show in Zhukovsky near Moscow, including at the MAKS-2007 show, the Russian Army still lacks them because the national Defense Ministry decided to stop buying them in 2006.

Consequently, the Russians had no choice but to send a Tupolev Tu-22M3 Backfire strategic bomber on a reconnaissance mission and to use Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot ground-attack jets to hit Georgian MLRS batteries.

The Georgians downed four Russian aircraft, which could have been saved if the Russians had the required UCAVs.

---

quote:

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Pentagon set on mission to rebuild Georgian military

Published: Tuesday September 9, 2008

The Pentagon said Tuesday it was sending a team to Georgia this week to assess needs for rebuilding its military, emphasizing that Tbilisi must be capable of deterring any new Russian attack.

"The Department of Defense is sending an assessment team to Tbilisi later this week to help us begin to consider carefully Georgia's legitimate needs and our response," said Under Secretary of Defense Eric Edelman.

"There should not be any question whether Georgia is entitled to military assistance from NATO or any allies." ...
US efforts to help Georgia will not be undertaken by Washington alone, Edelman said, citing parallel moves by NATO.

---

The Russians have called for an arms embargo of the Tbilisi militarist regime - so that what happened on Aug 7/8 won't be repeated. That call looks to be falling upon deaf (NATO) ears. The EU countries, however, are now responsible for the conduct of the Tbilisi regime, which is a kind of progress, thanks to the terms and conditions of the new agreement worked out on Monday through the offices of the French President.

Just to reiterate: contrarianna's story shows that the NATO countries, including Canada presumably, will be re-arming the very militarist regime that started the war in the first place. There have been no conditions attached to the "aid" that is being provided - to the tune of a billion dollars so far - to the Tbilisi regime. And nothing is being provided to the victims of that regime.

quote:

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The United States authorities have not yet decided whether to issue visas to the Abkhaz and South Ossetian officials who wanted to attend a session of the United Nations Security Council, Russian Foreign Ministry's spokesman Andrei Nesterenko said.

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quote:

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Chomsky: Russia called for an emergency session of the Security Council, but no consensus was reached because, according to Council diplomats, the US, Britain, and some others rejected a phrase that called on both sides “to renounce the use of force.”

The typical reactions recall Orwell’s observations on the “indifference to reality” of the “nationalist,” who “not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but ... has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”

---

Yes. I've seen this "remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them" myself. Well put, Noam.

quote:

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Chomsky: The basic facts are not seriously in dispute. South Ossetia, along with the much more significant region of Abkhazia, were assigned by Stalin to his native Georgia. Western leaders sternly admonish that Stalin’s directives must be respected, despite the strong opposition of Ossetians and Abkhazians. The provinces enjoyed relative autonomy until the collapse of the USSR. In 1990, Georgia’s ultranationalist president Zviad Gamsakhurdia abolished autonomous regions and invaded South Ossetia. The bitter war that followed left 1000 dead and tens of thousands of refugees, with the capital city of Tskhinvali “battered and depopulated” (New York Times).

A small Russian force then supervised an uneasy truce, broken decisively on August 7, 2008, when Georgian president Saakashvili’s ordered his forces to invade. According to “an extensive set of witnesses,” the Times reports, Georgia’s military at once “began pounding civilian sections of the city of Tskhinvali, as well as a Russian peacekeeping base there, with heavy barrages of rocket and artillery fire.” The predictable Russian response drove Georgian forces out of South Ossetia, and Russia went on to conquer parts of Georgia, then partially withdrawing to the vicinity of South Ossetia.

---

Ossetia-Georgia-Russia-U.S.A.

quote:

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Vlad Sobell, senior economist, Daiwa Research, London: In February 2007 Putin informed the West that the time of appeasement was over. Ironically this happened in a speech delivered in Munich, the very city, which came to be associated with the appeasement of Adolf Hitler.

Putin did so politely but firmly and unambiguously. Instead of carefully listening to his message, Western leaders intensified their demonising of Russia. Washington, for its part, pushed for Ukraine and Georgia's membership of NATO, while surging ahead with negotiations for the installation of the anti-missile defences in Central Europe - this in full knowledge that Russia would find it an unacceptable menace to its security.

In August, the Kremlin finally acted on the notice it had issued in Munich eighteen months earlier, although unfortunately it waited until provoked by Washington's puppet Saakashvili, an error that cost dozens of military and hundreds of civilian lives on both sides. Thus the wisdom that appeasement does not pay, learned in Munich before the Second World War, has once again been vindicated.

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Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

[ 12 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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A group of NATO experts has arrived in Tbilisi. Kommersant has learned that they will evaluate the losses to the Georgian military infrastructure in its recent conflict with Russia. The alliance is taking inventory before providing Georgia with aid. A decision on the volume and nature of that aid will be made at the visiting session of the NATO council that will be held in Tbilisi next week.

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NATO takes count.

[ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

web page

Sergei Lavrov is the Russian Foreign Minister. In this article, Russia and the World in the 21st Century, he outlines his views on the "post-American" situation. It makes very interesting reading in light of the recent events in the Caucuses. One might say that economy precedes politics and that a disruption of the American uni-polar world was inevitable, regardless of the Georgian attack upon South Ossetia.

quote:

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Lavrov: In modern international relations it is difficult to find a more fundamental issue than the definition of the current stage in global development.

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OK, so what are the models?

quote:

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There is already no doubt that the end of the Cold War marked the end of a longer stage in global development, which lasted for 400 to 500 years and when the world was dominated by European civilization. This domination was consistently led by the historical West.

As regards the content of the new stage in humankind’s development, there are two basic approaches to it among countries. The first one holds that the world must gradually become a Greater West through the adoption of Western values. It is a kind of “the end of history.” The other approach – advocated by Russia – holds that competition is becoming truly global and acquiring a civilizational dimension; that is, the subject of competition now includes values and development models.

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What does this second approach look like?

quote:

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It is a world where – due to the growth of other global centers of power and influence – the relative importance of the U.S. role has been decreasing, as it has already happened in recent decades in the global economy and trade....

Various terms have been proposed to define the content of the emerging world order, among them multi-polar, polycentric and nonpolar. The latter characteristic is given, in particular, by Richard Haass. It is difficult not to agree with him that power and influence are now becoming diffused. But even the former director of policy planning for the U.S. State Department admits that ensuring the governability of global development in the new conditions requires establishing a core group of leading nations. That is, in any case the matter at hand is the need for collective leadership, which Russia has been consistently advocating. Of course, the diversity of the world requires that such collective leadership be truly representative both geographically and civilizationally.

We do not share the apprehensions that the ongoing reconfiguration in the world will inevitably bring about “chaos and anarchy.” It is a natural process of forming a new international architecture – both political and financial-economic – that would meet the new realities.

One such reality is the return of Russia to global politics, the global economy and finance as an active, full-fledged actor. This refers to our place on the world energy and grain markets; to our leadership in the field of nuclear energy and space exploration; to our capabilities in the sphere of land, air and sea transit; and to the role of the ruble as one of the most reliable world currencies.
Unfortunately, the Cold War experience has distorted the consciousness of several generations of people, above all political elites, making them think that any global policy must be ideologized. And now, when Russia is guided in international affairs by understandable, pragmatic interests, void of any ideological motives whatsoever, not everyone is able to adequately take it.

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Further:

quote:

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This situation will hardly change soon, as the matter at issue is psychological factors – after all, at least two generations of political leaders were brought up in a certain ideological system of coordinates, and sometimes they are simply unable to think in categories beyond those frameworks. Other factors include quite specific, understandably interested motives pertaining to privileges that the existing global financial-economic architecture gives to individual countries.

---

Remember, Lavrov wrote this well before the events in the Caucuses last month.

Current failures of Anglo-Saxon models and European social models of economic development come under scrutiny by Lavrov. He suggests that the current failure of the Anglo-Saxon models have to do with "the isolation of the U.S. financial system from the real sector of (the) economy."

What's all this to lead to?

quote:

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Probably, a synthesis of various models – as a process, rather than a final result – will be a key trend in global development in the foreseeable future. Accordingly, the multiformity of the contemporary world, which reflects its more fundamental characteristic – cultural and civilizational diversity, will remain. One can also assume that in order to make the global “rules of the game” more effective in these conditions, they must be freed from ideology.

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Finally, Lavrov makes an interesting observation about the influence of foreign policy upon domestic policy.

quote:

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I would like to make it clear: Russia, as no other country, understands the painfulness of the current changes. No one can get away from them. Moreover, as experience shows, adaptation at the level of foreign policy can only result from serious changes within the states themselves. Therefore Russia has quite realistic expectations regarding when changes should be awaited in the foreign policy philosophy of its international partners.

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However, I should add that Lavrov's concillatory tone may have been shattered by the events in South Ossetia. The following remark ...

quote:

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Finally, we all should step over ourselves and stop the unnecessary talk about “veto power” outside the UN Security Council, about “spheres of influence” and the like. We can very well do without all that, as there are more important things where we undoubtedly have common interests.

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I may be wrong but it appears that South American countries are developing a more cooperative economic model without the "spheres of influence" now that they have shrugged off the IMF and WB to a large extent.
(Edit: added last paragraph).

[ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: Stanley10 ]

quote:

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...if they cannot adapt, will be left behind.

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I believe adaptation is not likely, nor will we hear a whimper. I've read that one of the necessary features of the "Standard Economic Model" (or "Washington Consensus" or "Merged Model" in its IMF form) is that it requires continuous economic growth, which is, eventually, unsustainable. On the way to its demise, this model requires more and more countries(markets and resources)to participate and play by the same rules(globalization). To keep this Ponzi scheme going requires participation by force, if necessary.

[ 13 September 2008: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]

I don't think it's useful to compare the role of Soviet and Warsaw Pact troops in Europe in those events and the role of Russian troops in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict. There was no serious attempt at regime change on the part of the Russians recently; their aim was an objective which, once achieved, made their troop presence mostly unnecessary in Georgia; and their current actions were a response to a completely unnecessary military attack on civilians which made theirs more a humanitarian mission than a military one. The Azeris, for example, thanked the Russians for NOT targeting the oil pipeline belonging to them, on Georgian soil, during the conflict, when it is clear as day that were geopolitical factors as important to the Russians as they are to the Americans, then such pipelines would have been an ideal target. The Georgian military was partly disarmed, the Russians have called for a military embargo of that country, and they have left Georgians, rightly, to decide on what to do about Saakashvili themselves. This is a different sort of Russia. To paraphrase Medvedev, the Americans have too many Sovietologists and not enough experts on Russia.

quote:

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Originally posted by Erik Redburn:
I wonder if Moscow used the old "sphere of influence" justification when they ordered the invasion of Hungary and Czechoslovakia?

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The Soviets always maintained that the western front was to prevent another barbarossa. Russia did have the body count from WW II to justifty it. The west never contested it. In fact, a recent study of Soviet and CIA archives by Stanford professor Charles Gatti indicates that the Soviets would rather have created a politcally neutral layer of countries(as was negotiated for Austria, Switzerland etc) to the west. What they wouldn't tolerate were NATO occupied Czechoslovakia or Hungary on Soviet borders. The old Soviet Union represented about a third of world countries, and they were not interested in aggressive expansionism NATO style. There is no real evidence for it, not even in Stalin's time.

Even today, the U.S. and Britain seek to expand their "sphere of influence" and competing with "French-German" expansionism into the Balkans, Africa, and Eastern Europe. Ukrainians, realizing that they will never be considered part of the west, are likely to seek new-old partnerships in the slavic sphere, like Canada and the U.S. would normally if we free and fair trade was possible between our two countries. It's always been a lopsided one for us though. Russia has always wanted to trade fairly with the west. British and American and Dutch energy conglomerates and capitalists have been quite ruthless and unfair in their business practices around the world and often relying on military to enforce the rules in their favour. Here is what Richard Cook, a former U.S. federal government analyst, said in a short essay, Has the West Reached Its Limits?:

quote:

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Today, Putin is cleaning out the remaining gangster class. His efforts reached a milestone in January with the arrest in Moscow of Semion Mogilevich, called “the world’s most dangerous man.”

Putin has declared that the world will not be governed in a “unipolar” manner; i.e. by the U.S. military as the police force for the global financiers. This does not mean Russia has to be our enemy. In fact the world would be much better off, and much safer, if we joined with Russia as allies in keeping the peace.

But to do that our system would have to change, because finance capitalism is far too unstable to coexist with other nations as equals. It must either grow or die, because it always needs new victims to pay the interest on its usury practices and to finance its speculative balloons. As a last resort, it needs the kind of financial institution bailouts being engineered by Secretary of the Treasury Henry Paulson, where the only remaining stopgap is borrowing from public funds and adding to the national debt.

Once economic growth stops, as has now happened, and all the bubbles to restart it have blown up, as has also happened, the end really is nigh. Especially if the host—the U.S. —is bankrupt.

---

The Georgian militarist regime really looks like it is toast. There is even discussion of regime change, not by the Russians, who were wise enough to withdraw and leave that to Georgians themselves, but by the puppet masters in Washington.

quote:

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Irakly Okruashvili, Georgia's leading political exile, said in a weekend interview in Paris that the United States was partly to blame for the war, having failed to check the ambitions of what he called a man with democratic failings.

Saakashvili's days as president were now numbered, he said.

The former defence minister's remarks are significant because Saakashvili has always maintained Russia started the war by invading his country. The Georgian president said he handed EU leaders last week "very strong proof" that Moscow was to blame, though he did not give details.

But Okruashvili, a close Saakashvili ally who served as defence minister from 2004 to 2006, said he and the president worked together on military plans to invade South Ossetia and a second breakaway region on the Black Sea coast, Abkhazia.

---

Games are being played around the question of peacekeepers, the Head of NATO has blathered about the lousy deal that Sarcozy arranged with the Russians, the Anglosphere NATO countries are carrying out all sorts of peevish, Harper-like actions (the Brits, if you please, prevented the bagpipers from playing in Moscow!), and so on.

Anyway, the following is an excellent read.

It turns out that the Americans are trying to spitefully prevent the victims, and intended victims, of the Georgians in South Ossetia and Abkhazia from being present at the UN Security Council when their own fate is being discussed. However, the Russians have made it clear that they will not budge on this issue and so the Yanks are faced with the prospect of issuing the appropriate visas or losing the sources of information in the conflict areas from the UN/other observers.

The Americans are getting slapped around. I must admit that I find it highly amusing and I can't help but think that zillions of other people smiliingly agree with me. Enjoy.

quote:

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Ukraine was plunged into fresh political turmoil yesterday when its pro-Western Government collapsed, amid recriminations over Russia’s invasion of Georgia.

President Yushchenko accused Russia of trying to destabilise the country after the collapse of the coalition Government between his party, Our Ukraine, and the faction headed by the Prime Minister, Yuliya Tymoshenko. “I will not be an idealist who says that there are not intentions to cause internal instability in this or that region of Ukraine. Without a doubt, such scenarios exist,” Mr Yushchenko said. “For some of our partners instability in Ukraine is like bread with butter.”...

The Speaker of Ukraine’s parliament, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, dissolved the coalition formally yesterday, ending hopes that the two sides could patch up their differences after Our Ukraine pulled out ten days ago. He said the parties had 30 days to build a new majority in parliament or face elections, only a year after Ukraine last went to the polls. “I would not call this an apocalypse. It is a challenge for democracy, but I hope we will overcome this challenge together,” he said.

The crisis has exposed deep fissures within the pro-Western forces who came to power after the 2004 revolution, as the rival leaders jockey for an advantage before presidential elections expected late next year. The divisions could open the way for the pro-Russian Party of Regions, led by their bitter rival Viktor Yanukovych, to return to power and tilt Ukraine towards Moscow once again....

Last month’s war in Georgia sparked a sharp increase in tensions after aides to Mr Yushchenko accused Mrs Tymoshenko of “high treason” for not condemning the Kremlin. Mr Yushchenko openly backed Georgia and infuriated Moscow by limiting the movement of the Black Sea Fleet during the conflict.

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U.S. could use Georgia as a bridgehead to attack Iran

quote:

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The U.S. military could have plans to use Georgian air bases to launch air strikes against Iran, according to Russia’s envoy to NATO Dmitry Rogozin.

He said that’s the reason why bases in Georgia damaged during the conflict with Russia are being rapidly rebuilt.

Rogozin said if a U.S. military operation against Iran goes ahead, he would have “pity for Georgia, because Iran is certain to defend itself.”

Rogozin called for the U.S. to support Russia's effort to engage Iran in international dialogue. According to him, threatening and pressuring Iran only "gives Teheran more arguments in favour of building some sort of weapons of mass destruction".

Iran has been in a state of diplomatic conflict with leading world powers over its nuclear programme. The state government argues that it needs enriched uranium for the peaceful generation of electricity. However, Western analysts argue that the program is geared toward weapon production.

---

quote:

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Open hostilities in the vicinity of Tskhinval, the capital of South Ossetia, began in the small hours of August 8, when Georgian artillery struck at the city and the Russian peacekeepers' positions in it. Georgian peacekeepers participated in the attack as well, having turned their arms against their Russian allies.

The first strike hit a 220-strong peacekeeping battalion under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Konstantin Timerman. It was his men's tenacity that helped repulse the first assault, which had a decisive influence on the ensuing events: Georgia failed to seize the city right away and make the world face an accomplished fact.

It was during that night (or rather early in the morning) that Russia's war machine began responding to events, and news came of Russian fighter jets seen above the Georgian forces' position. The air strikes performed by Su-25 fighters and Su-24 bombers also played an important role in repulsing the first attack on Tskhinval.

On the afternoon of August 8, the first Russian units entered South Ossetia (135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of the 19th Motorized Rifle Division) to defend local residents and reinforce peacekeeping forces, but it was not until August 9 that they actually reached the besieged peacekeepers.

Battles in local villages were mainly fought by local militia and volunteer units, while Russian troops interfered only if they had to take on large Georgian army units, for which the militia was no match.

Russian forces also undertook the mission of suppressing Georgian artillery, while the Russian air force struck Georgian rear infrastructure.

Russian special units also took on a Georgian task force. There is information that their successful operation prevented Georgian commandos from blowing up the Roki Tunnel, a mountain pass on the Caucasus Main Motorway. If blocked, it could have seriously hampered the operation because alternative routes lack sufficient traffic capacity.

The fighting in and around Tskhinval went on for three full days, and by the end of the third day Georgia's artillery was mostly destroyed, and what was left of it retreated. Georgian ground forces left the city, too.

It is important that throughout the operation, the Russian army was restricted by a series of political commitments, which prevented it from using heavy weapons in populated areas, and it greatly limited its counter-fire activities.

Russian aircraft continued strikes on Georgia's military infrastructure until August 12, making it impossible for its armed forces to carry on fighting.

Russia's navy also took part in the operation - a group of Black Sea Fleet warships patrolled the coasts of Abkhazia and Georgia. The group included the fleet's main ships, including the Moskva cruiser, three frigates, two small submarine chasers, small missile carrier Mirage, four guided-missile boats, a communications ship, and a marines group including landing ships Saratov and Tsezar Kunikov, and a troop ship, General Ryabikov, which carried two marine battalions.

The marines eventually landed in Abkhazia thus expanding the operation area. The reconnaissance units of the marines and the 7th Air Assault Division marched all the way to Poti and seized important Georgian military cargo and burned Georgian naval boats.

Much is unclear in this marine episode of the Russian-Georgian war. On August 11, we heard the news that Russian warships had sunk a Georgian missile boat, the Tbilisi. Later it turned out that the Tbilisi had been burned in Poti by Russian marines. Since the remaining boats retreated to Batumi, it was impossible to find out which of them was destroyed, if any, in the fight with the Russian navy. There are some reports that Georgia lost two ships.

By August 11, the Georgian army was no longer an organized force, as the footage of its ignominious retreat from South Ossetia, Gori and other areas was shown around the globe. Its units fled south, mostly to Tbilisi, leaving their weaponry behind, while Russian forces along with Abkhazian and South Ossetian units carried the hostilities on to Georgia's own territory, seizing the abandoned equipment and destroying what remained of the country's military infrastructure.

On August 12, President Dmitry Medvedev announced the completion of the operation.

---

The author then critiques the military actions of the two sides ...

quote:

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The five-day war exposed the Russian army's strong and weak points. Its strengths included a fast start, the methodical and consistent tactics they used to suppress Georgia's artillery and rear infrastructure and a successful anti-sabotage operation. All that credits the high qualifications of Russian command and headquarters staff.

As for their weaknesses, they failed to completely suppress Georgia's air defense units and air force. They also lacked cutting-edge equipment and used obsolete communications systems.

Some of these faults were recognized by the military leaders. Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, who was the army press spokesman during the conflict, admitted the loss of a Tu-22MR jet due to imperfect combat training of the air force.

Casualties are estimated differently on both sides. Russia reported 71 killed and 19 missing and four aircraft shot down. It also said it lost several dozen combat machines, including 10-15 tanks.

The Georgian Defense Ministry reports less than 300 Georgian soldiers killed, although other sources have more realistic figures, 1,000-1,500. Several Georgian battalions were destroyed entirely.

It is hard to estimate Georgia's loss of equipment. According to various estimates, around 50 machines were destroyed in combat, including 20 tanks, and about 100 (65 tanks) were seized by Russian forces after the Georgian army retreated.

The Russian force was not significantly superior to Georgia's; Georgia even had the advantage of fighting on its own familiar grounds.

This leads us to a conclusion that Russia has won a decisive victory, defeating the aggressor's army, and destroying or seizing a great number of military equipment. The victory guarantees Abkhazia and South Ossetia against further attempts at forceful annexation for a substantial period of time, unless the Georgian leadership rushes into another senseless adventure.

---

And, as for the political significance of the conflict ...

quote:

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The main political outcome of the war apart from the recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent countries on August 26 was a split in NATO, where the United States, Britain and Eastern Europe became opposed to Western Europe. The former group insisted on all-out support of Georgia, while the latter voiced understanding of Russia's position in this conflict and dismissed the idea of imposing sanctions as counterproductive....

Incidentally, as time passes, western assessments of the five-day war, which is now history, grow more weighted and objective. A unified anti-Russian bloc never formed here, except perhaps Poland and the Baltic nations with their strong dislike of Russia and Ukraine, which joined the club with U.S. support.

The outcome of the war can be expressed in a few short words: The world is changing rapidly. Russia's self-assertion as one of the key players on the international arena, combined with snowballing global financial crisis and a revision of many liberal values we inherited from the 1990s, suggests that we are witnessing a turn in history with global consequences. We are being swept by the winds of change.

---

Ilya Kramnik at Novosti - "The world is changing."

[ 20 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

By the way, here is a link to a whole range of Russian news sources in English. They cover a great range of political views.

Russian Newspapers and News Sites

quote:

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The five-day war exposed the Russian army's strong and weak points. Its strengths included a fast start, the methodical and consistent tactics they used to suppress Georgia's artillery and rear infrastructure and a successful anti-sabotage operation. All that credits the high qualifications of Russian command and headquarters staff.

As for their weaknesses, they failed to completely suppress Georgia's air defense units and air force. They also lacked cutting-edge equipment and used obsolete communications systems.

Some of these faults were recognized by the military leaders. Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, who was the army press spokesman during the conflict, admitted the loss of a Tu-22MR jet due to imperfect combat training of the air force.

Casualties are estimated differently on both sides. Russia reported 71 killed and 19 missing and four aircraft shot down. It also said it lost several dozen combat machines, including 10-15 tanks.

The Georgian Defense Ministry reports less than 300 Georgian soldiers killed, although other sources have more realistic figures, 1,000-1,500. Several Georgian battalions were destroyed entirely.

It is hard to estimate Georgia's loss of equipment. According to various estimates, around 50 machines were destroyed in combat, including 20 tanks, and about 100 (65 tanks) were seized by Russian forces after the Georgian army retreated.

The Russian force was not significantly superior to Georgia's; Georgia even had the advantage of fighting on its own familiar grounds.

This leads us to a conclusion that Russia has won a decisive victory, defeating the aggressor's army, and destroying or seizing a great number of military equipment. The victory guarantees Abkhazia and South Ossetia against further attempts at forceful annexation for a substantial period of time, unless the Georgian leadership rushes into another senseless adventure.

---

The Georgian Army suffers from corruption and nepotism to an extreme degree, if some other reports are to be believed, and this had a strong effect on the result of the conflict. The humiliating retreat for Georgian soldiers from Stalin's birthplace of Gori, with tanks and pick-up trucks jockeying for position on the highway to Tbilisi, showed this bad morale. The Georgians were not willing to defend their own country and I have no reason to assume that Georgian soldiers are any more cowardly than soldiers anywhere else ... but, rather, that they were unwilling to risk their lives for such a corrupt regime as Saakashvili's.

Strategic Lessons of the War for Russia

The main lesson is the complete dependency of all of the weapons (air- and sealaunched
cruise missiles, airplanes, helicopters, fire support, tanks, multiple rocket
launchers) on navigational support.

For the Russian Army we need to deploy our own space grouping with the naval, air
and ground components linked with it, which will be capable of providing navigation data
to the naval, air and ground elements, as well as to the nuclear deterrence weapons, as
well as navigation systems on the operational and tactical echelons.

There is now a need for substantiating and introducing into operation a new operational
support system -- a navigation system that at this time the Russian Army lacks.

The second lesson is the strategic significance of the VVS [Air Forces] as the most
important branch of the armed forces in modern day warfare. Only the coalition's
complete supremacy in the air allowed it to achieve a decisive superiority in forces in
any battle.

The third lesson is the importance of saturating the combat ranks with powerful
precision guided munitions, capable of destroying armored enemy targets at maximum
distances. A new tactical battlefield weapons complex is needed that is capable of
spotting the enemy at maximum range, day and night, that will destroy modern combat
tanks at average distances of 800-1000 meters, and will ensure the destruction of the
enemy's infantry with bullet and shrapnel at distances of 300 to 500 meters, despite its
having individual protective equipment.

The fourth lesson is the ever increasing importance of camouflage, concealment,
deception and secrecy as one of the main forms of combat support. Under conditions
whereby precision guided munitions are used, camouflage, concealment and deception
and adhering to a regime of secrecy will become a strategic mission of the defending
troops.

Were these lessons applied to the South Ossetia and Georgia conflict?

[ 03 October 2008: Message edited by: Webgear ]

TBILISI, Georgia–A car exploded killing seven soldiers outside Russia's military headquarters in South Ossetia today, and Russian authorities have charged it was a terrorist bombing meant to wreck the tense cease-fire that concluded their war with Georgia.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
[QB]S. Ossetia blames Georgia, Georgia blames Russia for bomb blast

"The Georgian Interior Ministry put the blame on Russia. It charged that Russian intelligence services set off the blast to provide grounds for keeping Russian troops on Georgian territory"

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It has been awkward for the Western establishment that Saakashvili actually began the serious conflict with a major and civilian-oriented bombardment and ground attack on Tskhinvali. The Russians didn't make the initiating move and can credibly claim to be responding to the Georgian attack. The U.S. establishment has handled this by: (1) ignoring the basic fact of Georgia's initiation; (2) ignoring the civilian-target orientation of that opening attack; (3) arguing that the Russians had provoked Georgia and deliberately sucked it into a major conflict. But none of these responses work. The first two dodge the issue completely and the third fails to explain why Saakashvili did such a seemingly self-destructive thing—and of course fails to consider the possibility that he either expected no Russian response or expected Western military support or was being used by the United States for its own ends. Whatever the answers, Georgia started the war, not Russia, and the West has had to evade and/or downplay that fact.

It is also interesting that the U.S. and EU have been completely unconcerned over Georgia's use of powerful and indiscriminate Grad missiles in the initial attack on what seems to have been strictly civilian sites in Tskinvali. In 1996 the Yugoslav Tribunal found the Croatian Serb leader Milan Martic guilty of war crimes for having used a similarly indiscriminate weapon in attacking Zagreb, a densely populated area, although he claimed to be aiming at the Ministry of Defense and Airport. But the Tribunal concluded that he was trying to terrorize the population (whereas prosecutor Carla Del Ponte found that while NATO also used cluster bombs, "There is no indication cluster bombs were used in such a fashion by NATO.") Martic was given a 35-year sentence for using cluster bombs. I think we can safely conclude that Saakashvili's use of cluster bombs will be treated like NATO's rather than Milan Martic's.

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Attempted genocide in South Ossetia pays off to the tune of $4.5 Billion in aid to Georgia; genocide for fun and profit?

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Georgia's Western backers, led by the United States and the European Union (EU), have pledged $4.5bn in funds to help Georgia recover after its August conflict with Russia.

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Russian bombing raids in August hit mainly military targets, but Tbilisi also reported damage to civilian infrastructure and risks to its economic growth and investment.

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And what about aid to the victims of the Georgian campaign of destruction in S Ossetia?

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Dmitri Babich, an analyst from Russian Profile magazine, told Al Jazeera: "The only nation that has so far pledged to help South Ossetia is Russia.

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Newly available accounts by independent military observers of the beginning of the war between Georgia and Russia this summer call into question the longstanding Georgian assertion that it was acting defensively against separatist and Russian aggression.

Instead, the accounts suggest that Georgia’s inexperienced military attacked the isolated separatist capital of Tskhinvali on Aug. 7 with indiscriminate artillery and rocket fire, exposing civilians, Russian peacekeepers and unarmed monitors to harm....

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Originally posted by It's Me D:
Sakashvilli receives $4.5 Billion payment for attempted genocide

Attempted genocide in South Ossetia pays off to the tune of $4.5 Billion in aid to Georgia; genocide for fun and profit?

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So no one but Russia really cares to help the Ossetians
The morally enlightened West reserve their outrage for Russia only while their wallets are open for the Georgian aggressors.