The previous thread.

ETA: spelling corrected.

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

Question: Is it useful to describe Saakashvili as a dictator? I thought he got just over 50% of the vote in the Presidential election?

I think this is worth looking into. The opposition parties were subject to an orchestrated media blackout during the election and were unable to get their message out. Now, their demonstrations are subject to merciless attacks by the police, and some of them have been calling for the resignation of the crocodile in Tbilisi for some time now.

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The opposition parties were subject to an orchestrated media blackout during the election and were unable to get their message out.

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Originally posted by A_J:
You keep calling Saakashvili a dictator. He was democratically elected. You sound worse than Fox News when it comes to Hugo Chavez

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Saakashvili did defeat an incumbent government that had total control over the media etc...and he is apparently still very popular - whether you like it or not.

Sound familiar? Here's what the dead man had to say ...

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by Patarkatsishvili's telling, the young Georgian president was an arrogant and impulsive neophyte who squandered the revolution's potential by crushing opposition politicians, succumbing to corruption and turning the police against crowds of demonstrators last November in Tbilisi, the country's capital.

In that episode, the police used rubber bullets, tear gas, water cannons and batons on thousands of unarmed demonstrators. Saakashvili declared a state of emergency and masked police officers ransacked the Imedi TV station - a significant setback to Georgia's effort to portray itself as a modernizing state.

Patarkatsishvili said that the crackdown was evidence that Saakashvili had not only failed to fulfill his promises, but had become covetous of power and placed himself beyond the checks and balances of a truly democratic government.

He also suggested that Saakashvili had prepared in advance for a confrontation with the public, at the expense of investing in social programs or public works.

"Now we know what he has spent our citizens' money on," he told The New York Times, after seeing the formidable roll-out of new police equipment used against the demonstrators, many of whom were poor.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I guess that's one very self-serving interpretation.

Saakashvili did defeat an incumbent government that had total control over the media etc...and he is apparently still very popular - whether you like it or not.

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[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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The Rose Revolution in Georgia unravelled in a haze of teargas last night as riot police broke up protests and the pro-Western President declared a state of emergency. ...

Saakashvili ... declared a 15-day state of emergency across the country. Police stormed two opposition television stations later and closed them down....

The violence in Tbilisi erupted on the sixth day of protests by a coalition of opposition parties. The protests began on Friday when 50,000 people gathered outside parliament. They had dwindled to about 3,000 people by early yesterday when hundreds of special forces troops, their faces covered by gas masks, used batons to clear the square outside parliament.

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Saakashvili blamed the Russians. How original.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I've still never had an answer to my question:

the people of Georgia WANT to join NATO and the EU and WANT to have a foreign policy that is 100% independent of Moscow - should they have the right to? Or do country bordering on super-powers have to put up or shut up? (in which case you are essentially arguing that Canada has no right to be anything but an American puppet)

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It must be thrilling for some to suit up in keyboard cold warrior fatigues again.

So you think that if Canada wanted to join something like the Warsaw pact and install Russian bases here, the US would allow it? Hell, even I could understand their absolute refusal to allow it.

In any case, your reference to Canada is meaningless as Canada is already a de facto US puppet state.
And Georgia, desperate the be part of the US's criminality, has also demonstrated its puppet-worthy status in the form of 2000 troops in Iraq.

No one who is actually interested in world security and equitable treatment of major powers can blithely think that NATO's expansion into Georgia (willing or not) is an acceptable thing.

The "chickens" identified in Professor Stephen F Cohen's lengthy and excellent 2006 article on the "New American Cold War" are coming home to roost:

You might say that Cohen carefully clarifies the cock-up in the Caucasus and challenges conservative caricatures. You just might.

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by NorthReport:

Come on, the US intelligence knew of the Russian buildup, and did NOT discourage Saakashvili, the Georgian leader, from his actions. Why not you ask?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
and what explains people being apologists for Russian imperialism?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
If the people of Georgia WANT to be part of NATO and the EU and have an independent foreign policy - should that be allowed must Georgia be a Russian satellite whether it wants to or not?

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I don't think you'll ever get that question answer here...

ETA: I should have completed that thought with "...by N.Beltov or Fidel"

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

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Originally posted by contrarianna:
So you think that if Canada wanted to join something like the Warsaw pact and install Russian bases here, the US would allow it? Hell, even I could understand their absolute refusal to allow it.

[SNIP]

…when NATO expands to Russia's front and back doorsteps, gobbling up former Soviet-bloc members and republics…

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First of all, NATO is not “gobbling up” any unwilling country. If the people of a country want to join NATO (and it’s a bit telling that so many want to), that’s not “gobbling them up” (which implies a country being “gobbled up” against its will).

On the flip side, it’s interesting to see that there is no mad rush of countries wanting to join a “Warsaw Pact” with Russia.

I wonder why?

ETA: Could it be that countries are more concerned with Russia than with the Evil™ United States?

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

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Originally posted by Sven:
ETA: Could it be that countries are more concerned with Russia than with the Evil™ United States?

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

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Actually the Czech Republic is going to put USSA's offensive missile shield to a national referendum. It's not looking too good for the vicious empire's plan to make like an enemy at the gates.

Pro NATO countries:
Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Albania, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania; -- with Georgia and Ukraine are seeking membership

Other former Soviet countries: Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Kazahkstan, Moldova, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Kyrgystan ally with Russia.

Now its true that many East European nations joined NATO, but not all of them did so out of free will. Is it a coincidence that weeks after Poland, Czech rep. and Hungary joined Nato in 1999, the alliance begun a 3 month bombing of sovereign Yugoslavia?
It was also coincided with the golden 50th jubilee of this creature of the Cold War.

Just an accident, was it?
It became evident long ago that NATO has no significant purpose anymore, and that it simply tries to justify its raison'd'etre and distract others from seeing it as Yankee water carrier.

Now back to why these nations joined in the first place. I can see Polish and Hungarians being in favour of joining NATO back in the 90's for a variety of reasons, one of them being a suckup prerequisite for joining the EU(which they did in 2004).
Good for them. However, its likely that many other nations such as Romania and Bulgaria, many of them being Orthodox and strongly opposed to gangrape of Yugoslavia, were intimidated into joining afterwards.

You see, the United States being the Global Empire and playing the gig as the leader of the Free World

code:

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TM

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All sides have committed massacres and behaved abominably. There are no clean hands involved, notwithstanding the strong support for Georgia visible in the press of most NATO member countries. (Georgia has been jockeying to join NATO, something Moscow stridently opposes.) Still, not everyone in NATO agrees that Saakashvili is a hero. While traveling with the negotiating team of President Nicolas Sarkozy, one French official observed that "Saakashvili was crazy enough to go in the middle of the night and bomb a city" in South Ossetia. The consequence of Russia's riposte, he said, is "a Georgia attacked, pulverized, through its own fault."

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Basically "a pox on both your houses".

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Originally posted by jrootham:
However, a lot of it is about how the US behaviour in recent times has damaged international institutions designed to prevent this kind of action. Russia is now exploiting that damage.

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"Georgia did attack South Ossetia at the start of this current conflict, which began on Aug. 7, MacKinnon said. The Russians believe they're in the right and that the West is being hypocritical" Mark MacKinnon Globe and Mail reporter and author of "The New Cold War"

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[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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No one who is actually interested in world security and equitable treatment of major powers can blithely think that NATO's expansion into Georgia (willing or not) is an acceptable thing.

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Then I guess it was also unacceptable for the Warsaw Pact to expand into Cuba and you must think that the US had every right to launch the Bay of Pigs attack.

But Cuba isnt joining any alliance which consists of 2 dozen countries, led by a Global Empire

code:

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TM  

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Originally posted by BetterRed:
Because Russia only seems rightist to you, it has leftist elements if one would look closer.

And at any rate, Russia is getting dragged through the mud in the Western media, who dance to the tune of the corporate elites.
A new enemy is needed in the West, Sven. The besieged Arabs wont do it anymore, not after the Iraq shitstorm.
The Russians have a saying: "All new things are really well-forgotten old things"
Russia is the new, well-forgotten enemy of the West, intended to distract, and terrify gullible folks.
Unless youre not gullible but just biased in favour of whatever your media says.
Now Sven you can keep adding some more hair-splitting and distractions into the thread as is your usual way.

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Because Russia only seems rightist to you, it has leftist elements if one would look closer.

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I challenge you to identify anything at all that could be called "leftist" about today's Russia.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I challenge you to identify anything at all that could be called "leftist" about today's Russia.

This is a country with just about the widest gap between rich and poor in Europe, non-existent welfare programs, plummeting life expectancy, vicious homophobia and anti-semitism, blatant neo-Nazis like Zhirinovsky forming the opposition to the neo-Tsarist/KGB government they have now, journalists who criticize the government being routinely gunned down, dissidents poisoned in London by the secret police, ethnic cleansing and genocide in Chechnya. I suppose that if you have some new fangled definition of "leftist" that is simply short-hand for any country that is not a US ally - that might qualify. In that case, does the Taliban also have some "leftist elements" in it???

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[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Originally posted by Sven:

See Unified Theory of Babble.

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Except that Juan Cole doesn't post on Babble.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Newsflash for Sven: Russia is no longer the USSR. It is no longer a communist country. It is a capitalist entrepreneur's dream. In contrast to Cuba, you are no longer required to provide a knee-jerk condemnation of its actions!!!

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Originally posted by Sven:
I don't, actually.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Then kindly do us the favour of not assuming that all leftists defend Russia's actions out of a knee-jerk reflex.

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1. Russian investigators have opened a genocide criminal case into the mass killings in South Ossetia by Georgia;

2. Some evidence collected shows that foreign mercenaries were involved in Georgian raid on Tskhinvali in South Ossetia;

3. In contrast to the feverish and incendiary claims of Russian tanks zooming towards Tbilisi, Russian troops have actually turned over control of Gori to the Georgian civil police;

4. The Turkish Prime Minister has stated publicly that Turkey is ready to help settle S. Ossetia situation.

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Sisters-in-Arms

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Silver medallist Natalia Paderina (l) of Russia and bronze medallist Nino Salukvadze of Georgia pose after the women’s 10 meter air pistol shooting competition at the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games on Sunday.

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from the St. Petersburg Times

Mir y drushba is what Georgians and Russians should be saying to each other. It's a language that everyone understands.

_____________________________

mir y drushba = Peace and Friendship

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Now read this in contrast to such a view ...

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The 58th Army is permanently-based in Vladikavkaz, which is near the war zone, so, its fast reaction is not surprising. The force used was not disproportionate, as only two division-equivalents were used in both Ossetia and Abkhazia (a division-sized battle group in each sector). The speed of the Russian victory was due to the incompetence, low morale, and corruption endemic in the Georgian forces.

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On the other hand, it is worth noting that at least one Russian paper said that Moscow had already taken preventative steps by concentrating troops and armor near the border. But being prepared to rebuff an attack is quite different from planning for an attack of one's own. It's all about how such things are framed ...

The article by Friedman in an earlier thread used terminology like "a trap set by the Russians" and so on.

Here is a link to a Russian paper in which the author claims that "Georgia set the perfect trap". Judge for yourself who is right ...

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

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Originally posted by remind:
What would those actions be Sven? Got a link, or it is it just your persoal opinion that somehow they are worse than the USA?

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Two comments:

First, since when are "personal opinions" unacceptable here?

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Here's a tiny little ray of light. Sometimes a picture really is worth a thousand words.

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Isn't that sweet?

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Given Russia's conduct over the last couple of days, I think the charade is over that Russia was acting to stop ethnic cleansing in S.O.

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Did you see the editorial in Pravda?

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President Bush,

Why don’t you shut up? Do you really think anyone gives any importance whatsoever to your words after 8 years of your criminal and murderous regime and policies? Do you really believe you have any moral ground whatsoever and do you really imagine there is a single human being anywhere on this planet who does not stick up his middle finger every time you appear on a TV screen? Kinda makes ya’ll think, eh?

Do you really believe you have the right to give any opinion or advice after Abu Ghraib? After Guantanamo? After the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens? After the torture by CIA operatives? Kinda difficult, eh?

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
That is the legacy of your country's foreign policy, after the "lies, lies, and more lies".

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It is quite obvious the USA set up Georgians and South Ossetians for sacrifice in their little power play on the world's stage. Just as they have exploited, abused and disgarded, many other peoples and nations in their quest to show us all how it is done. What your country has shown the world is that you are willing to act as if people are like Chinette plates, use them til they're no good and throw them away.

That you, the media and your leaders, have the gall to disparage Russia, for their conduct, which is currently no where close to the USA's, underscores the self destructyive blindness of ego and believed privilege, that permiates your country.

It will be very interesting to see how certain babblers will make themselves scarce, and have nothing to say, when the mountains of evidence of the horrific atrocities of the Georgians in Ossetia are brought together and presented to the world.

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Originally posted by Sven:
Newsflash for Fidel and N.Beltov: Russia is no longer the USSR. It is no longer a communist country. It is a borderline fascist country. In contrast to Cuba, you are no longer required to provide a knee-jerk defense of its actions!!!

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Originally posted by Sven:
Per the Associated Press: Russia's foreign minister declared that the world "can forget about" Georgia's territorial integrity on Thursday.

Russia is going to outright annex portions of Georgia.

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The U.S. President has made a statement "to the effect that his country supports the six-point peace plan for Georgia brokered by French
President Nicolas Sarkozy." (Interfax) If that's true then it's game over for the butcher Saakashvili.

LA Times blames Bush for South Ossetia bloodshed

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One of America’s leading broadsheets says that President George W. Bush shares responsibility for the disastrous consequences of Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia. The Los Angeles Times says the Georgian leaders were stupid enough to believe that the US would give them help in their adventure in South Ossetia. First of all, America is busy handling crises in Afghanistan and Iraq and secondly, the US cannot engage in conflict with the world’s second biggest nuclear power The newspaper puts part of the blame also on the Republican Democratic candidate John McCain who’s been actively lobbying Georgian interests in Washington. The main blame however is on President Bush whose anti-Russian record includes support for the so-called “color revolutions” in the Russian backyard, condemnation of the so-called anti-democratic crackdowns in Russia while ignoring crimes committed by America’s friends, and also Washington’s support for Georgia’s bid to join NATO and its planned deployment of missile defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic.

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The 1990 Nobel Peace Prize winner says straight out that "Russia is not seeking territorial expansion", and that "By declaring the Caucasus, a region that is thousands of miles from the American continent, a sphere of its "national interests," the United States made a serious blunder.

Georgia, says dear old Gorby, made an even larger error than George.

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Yes. It's all about Bush and America.

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Originally posted by remind:
That you, the media and your leaders, have the gall to disparage Russia, for their conduct, which is currently no where close to the USA's, underscores the self destructyive blindness of ego and believed privilege, that permiates your country.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
…the US President has been taken out to the woodshed for a good thrashing. And I must say, it's richly deserved.

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If the actions Country X, however egregious they may be, make the U.S. president look bad, then Country X’s actions are “good”.

That’s a very simple test.

And simplistic.

I think the Russians are wise to say that they will respect the wishes of the Ossetians and Abkhazians, whatever they are. So far, although the Russian government has given many, even most, Ossetians Russians passports, they have been careful not to annex Ossetia or Abkhazia. That's the right way to go for a peacekeeper/peacemaker. Let the locals decide their own fate.

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“The position of the Russian Federation is unchanged. We shall support any decisions the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia will make in conformity with the United Nations Charter, the international convention of 1966, and the Helsinki act on security and cooperation in Europe,” the Russian head of state said at a meeting with the leaders of South Ossetia and Georgia in Moscow on Thursday.

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Originally posted by Sven:
Okay. Forget about what Bush has to say about Russia’s actions in Georgia. What do you think about Russia’s actions in Georgia?

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All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
Their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow

And I find it kinda funny
I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very mad world mad world

Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday
Made to feel the way that every child should
Sit and listen, sit and listen
Went to school and I was very nervous
No one knew me, no one knew me
Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson
Look right through me, look right through me

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
The US demanded and sought international leadership and they have set the very poor example for other nations to follow.

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So, Russia is following the USA’s example?

If that is the case, then why the hell are babblers like Fidel, BetterRed, and N.Beltov approving Russia’s conduct—and many other babblers basically silent on the matter?

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Originally posted by remind:

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
Their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow

And I find it kinda funny
I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very mad world mad world

Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday
Made to feel the way that every child should
Sit and listen, sit and listen
Went to school and I was very nervous
No one knew me, no one knew me
Hello teacher tell me what's my lesson
Look right through me, look right through me

And I find it kinda funny
I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I'm dying
Are the best I've ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It's a very, very mad world ... world
Enlarge your world
Mad world

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Indeed. It is a mad, mad world.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Looting is also being reported, although I must add that looters are being summarily executed according to one report I read. I can't say I feel sorry for the looters. If you're going to behave like that in wartime, and take advantage of thousands of refugees, a bullet is what you deserve anyway.

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Erdogan said he had come to Moscow to show solidarity with Russia in connection with the situation in South Ossetia.

“The meeting provides us with an opportunity to assess the situation in South Ossetia again. This situation allows us to take a new look at relations between the two countries, solidarity between which is very important in this region,” the prime minister said.

He expressed hope that “this solidarity will grow stronger in the future”.

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August 13, 2008
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 13, 2008
3:00 PM

Bush Policy on Russia and Georgia

WASHINGTON - August 13 - The New York Times reports today: "The United States took a series of steps that emboldened Georgia: sending advisers to build up the Georgian military, including an exercise last month with more than 1,000 American troops; pressing hard to bring Georgia into the NATO orbit..." Neither President Bush this morning nor Secretary of State Rice yesterday took questions following their comments.

FRANCIS BOYLE
Professor of international law at the University of Illinois, Boyle is author of Breaking All The Rules and Destroying World Order. He said today: "It is curious but not surprising how the Bush administration and its allies have now found renewed respect for international law in the Caucasus, but not when it comes to (1) the United States invading Afghanistan and Iraq, while threatening to attack Iran; (2) Israel invading Lebanon and Palestine, attacking Syria, and threatening to attack Iran; (3) Ethiopia invading Somalia; (4) Colombia attacking Ecuador, etc. From an international law perspective, the real issue here is whether during her trip to Tbilisi a month ago, U.S. Secretary of State Rice gave the proverbial green light to Georgia to attack South Ossetia and thus deliberately provoke an overreaction by Russia. And how does this fit in with the U.S./U.K. naval armada currently steaming for the Persian Gulf and possible military confrontation with Iran over its right to engage in nuclear enrichment under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty?"

RICHARD FALK
Falk is professor emeritus of international law at Princeton University and distinguished visiting professor at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is the author of more than 20 books including The Costs of War: International Law, the UN, and World Order after Iraq. Falk recently returned from Turkey.

He said today: "I am above all astounded by the mainstream media's failure to take proper note of the pipeline geopolitics that infuses the Russian moves with their global significance. Also, in the course of condemning Russia, Bush failed to take any account of the fact of Georgia's provocations in denying rights to the people of South Ossetia, which continue to threaten the population with Georgian oppressive rule. On a wider front, Washington's effort to penetrate the Russian sphere of influence in Central Asia by seeking to promote NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine, together with the intended deployment of a missile defense system in East Europe, undoubtedly helped tip the scales in Moscow.

"One can imagine the U.S. outrage if Russia reacted similarly to American interventions in Cuba or Panama. Even so, the Russian recourse to force across an international boundary is a challenge to the core principle of international law and to the UN Charter. This is not a defensive use of force, and from an international law perspective, should be challenged and censured.

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Originally posted by Sven:
But, that really doesn't answer my specific question, does it?

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Originally posted by remind:

Yes, it does.

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Sven: What about looters in times of catastrophic natural disasters?

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New Orleans, perhaps? Why don't you share your "enlightened" views about African-Americans without food or water or any substantial assistance from the Bush administration after Hurricane Katrina? Maybe start a new thread in the anti-racism forum? (If you haven't been banned, that is.)

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If that is the case, then why the hell are babblers like Fidel, BetterRed, and N.Beltov approving Russia’s conduct—and many other babblers basically silent on the matter?

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If the USA is condemned for its conduct, then why isn’t Russia condemned for the same kind of conduct?

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Not a single US politician has condemned the US policy of mischief in the former Soviet Union which has stirred this action and which is causing Russia to move beyond US influence and may yet fracture NATO. Where are your courageous speakers? Defending your constitution? Hardly. That is in shreds.

Okay. We get it. Bush is a hypocrite.

My question is: Why are there so very few shrill attacks by lefties about what the Russians are doing if what Russia is doing is just following the USA’s example?

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

New Orleans, perhaps? Why don't you share your "enlightened" views about African-Americans without food or water or any substantial assistance from the Bush administration after Hurricane Katrina? Maybe start a new thread in the anti-racism forum? (If you haven't been banned, that is.)

It would be rather entertaining to see the mods open a can of whupass on you. Let me get my popcorn, OK?

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Foreign Ministers of South Ossetia and Abkhazia will arrive in Moscow on Friday on the presidents’ instruction in order to hold discussions on the recognition of these republics, Abkhazian President Sergei Bagapsh said.

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Originally posted by the Svenmeister:
If the USA is condemned for its conduct, then why isn’t Russia condemned for the same kind of conduct?

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Who has condemned the US for its actions? The Washington Post? The New York Times? Fox News? The American people who rewarded Bush and Cheney a second term? Who?

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Okay. Lemme make my question a bit clearer for you: Lefties have been screeching about Bush for years. That’s who has “condemned the US for its actions”. But, where is the outrage by those same lefties regarding Russia’s conduct?

Instead, the lefty focus is on Bush’s hypocrisy. It’s a great opportunity to beat on Bush whilst ignoring Russia’s actions.

I think Russia was wrong to go into Georgia despite the atrocities that Georgia has apparently committed in it’s break-away regions/republics. If morally, or legally, Russia was right in backing up Georgia’s separatist regions why did they act unilaterally for instance? Why not seek UN back-up or a coalition of peacekeepers from the CIS?

It sure seems like people are using the USA’s bad behaviour to justify Russia’s bad behaviour; which is interesting because I recall my children using the “she did it to me” argument a lot in the first grade.

Bush = Hypocrite (for demanding that Russia act according to international law when Bush flaunted international law)

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The foreign media simply ignored what South Ossetians think of all those events, in spite of the fact that they were the people, who suffered from the war most.

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This is perhaps the most telling criticism of the western media's coverage. What is the answer, I wonder, from the members of the anti-Russian fatwa club?

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Originally posted by remind:
Losing control of the message Sven?

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Prime Minister of Slovakia, Robert Fico, stated that it was Georgia that triggered the armed conflict in South Ossetia. The official urged everyone not to perceive the situation in black and white colors.

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It's the Rooskies I tell you! They're trying to sap our vital bodily fluids! I know something happened in Ossetia but let's put Saakashvili in charge to investigate! I'm sure he'll get to the bottom of things.

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Originally posted by 2 ponies:
I’m just curious what people think – was Russia right or wrong?

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2 ponies: Why not seek UN back-up or a coalition of peacekeepers from the CIS?

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The Russians claimed their right to self defense under Article 51 of the UN Charter. Look it up. What sort of monstrous suggestion is this anyway? How many MORE dead would be enough for you? All of the South Ossetians? All of the Abkhazians as well?

Saakashvili was counting on a rapid slaughter and ethnic cleansing. He succeeded in killing around 2,000 civilians and some Russian peacekeepers as well. It's a good thing the Russians responded as they did.

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Georgian planes opening fire on fleeing children; multiple-launch weapon systems against civilians in gross violation of human decency, with heads and legs torn from the bodies; witnesses discover the loss of relatives and collapse, in shock, screaming, right on camera; bodies everywhere; witnesses recount an old woman, with children, run over by a tank and ask, incredulously, "What is this?"; ; a woman, in a basement ask, "How can one do this to people? Every mother should remember her own children, her love for them ... "; the horrors are endless, and each new one more shocking than the last ...

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Genocide!!

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Originally posted by Sven:
Read 2 Ponies's post, remind.

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What brilliant insight and informed opinion did it offer?

I got a question for Sven, what do you think about the USA's serious cupability in what is going on?

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Originally posted by Sven:

First of all, NATO is not “gobbling up” any unwilling country. If the people of a country want to join NATO (and it’s a bit telling that so many want to), that’s not “gobbling them up” (which implies a country being “gobbled up” against its will)....

[ 13 August 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

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From the Stephen F. Cohen:
"Clinton's other unwise decision was to break the [H W]Bush Administration's promise to Soviet Russia in 1990-91 not to expand NATO "one inch to the east" and instead begin its expansion to Russia's borders. From that profound act of bad faith, followed by others, came the dangerously provocative military encirclement of Russia and growing Russian suspicions of US intentions."

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Who has condemned the US for its actions? The Washington Post? The New York Times? Fox News?

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When it comes to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the answer is ... no, yes, no.

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Sven: Russia's foreign minister declared that the world "can forget about" Georgia's territorial integrity on Thursday.

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Conclusion?

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Russia is going to outright annex portions of Georgia.

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What nonsense. The Foreign Minister made specific reference to Abkhazia and Ossetia, the regions that Saakashvili meant to carry out his ethnic cleansing in. The Russians are going to make sure that the Abkhazians and Ossetians will decide their own future. Period. There is even a meeting in Moscow on Friday to recognize their independence by the Russians. The Georgians won't be attending.

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Bryza also warned that proposed resolutions by the Russian parliament to recognize the de facto independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia would inflict tremendous political damage on Russia.

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Originally posted by torontoprofessor:

When it comes to the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the answer is ... no, yes, no.

Here is the New York Times editorial from March 9, 2003, ten days before the invasion of Iraq. "If it comes down to a question of yes or no to invasion without broad international support, our answer is no." I note this in order to dispel the myth that the entire journalistic establishment was/is in favour of all US government actions.

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You point to one dissenting OPINION piece in the NYT, as a balance to the NYT's drumbeat and tidal wave of "factual news" endlessly spewed from Judith (Scooter) Miller and others.
Proof indeed of the health of the democratic mainstream and it willingness to investigate all sides of an issue.

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The leaders of South Ossetia and Abkhazia believe that Georgia’s botched military assault means they now have a better chance than ever of getting international recognition for their independence.

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“Georgia has only been independent for 18 years and it has already had seven wars with us,” Bagapsh said.

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“What happened in Tskhinvali and in South Ossetia is exactly what we had told you before,” he said. “We warned you. We had told you that Georgia would go to war. But we were told that Saakashvili is a great democratic person, he would never do that, he had promised that to the EU. All those promises turned into blood and the death of people in South Ossetia.”

Eduard Kokoity echoed the words of his Abkhazian counterpart and added: “The plan of attack on South Ossetia and Abkhazia had been developed carefully”.

Also, addressing media representatives from the West, the South Ossetian leader asked: “Where were you during the first minutes of attacks on South Ossetia? Why did the representatives of the OSCE follow the representatives of the peacekeeping missions of Georgia? Why did they leave South Ossetia straightaway?”

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This is a serious charge. Collusion in the attack by OSCE representatives, perhaps?

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Russian President Dmitry Medvedev: “I would like you to know and tell your people: Russia’s position hasn’t changed. We will support any decision on the status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia made by their people in accordance with the UN Charter and other international conventions. We will not only support such decisions, we will guarantee their enforcement.”

The South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity thanked Russia for its efforts in helping guarantee its security.

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The Russian bear, despite his shoddy record, has done and continues to do the right thing with respect to Ossetia and Abkhazia.

More trips to the woodshed for the Americans? We'll see. The appetite for humiliations has to come to an end sometime, no?

[ 14 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Based on that rational, we should have toppled Saddam years ago after he gassed a bunch of Kurds.

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Yabbut, the rationale at the time was that Saddam was a US ally in Iraq's war against, wait for it, Iran.

Remember the US's reaction?

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Soon thereafter, Donald Rumsfeld (who had served in various positions in the Nixon and Ford administrations, including as President Ford's defense secretary, and at this time headed the multinational pharmaceutical company G.D. Searle & Co.) was dispatched to the Middle East as a presidential envoy. His December 1983 tour of regional capitals included Baghdad, where he was to establish "direct contact between an envoy of President Reagan and President Saddam Hussein," while emphasizing "his close relationship" with the president [Document 28]. Rumsfeld met with Saddam, and the two discussed regional issues of mutual interest, shared enmity toward Iran and Syria, and the U.S.'s efforts to find alternative routes to transport Iraq's oil; its facilities in the Persian Gulf had been shut down by Iran, and Iran's ally, Syria, had cut off a pipeline that transported Iraqi oil through its territory. Rumsfeld made no reference to chemical weapons, according to detailed notes on the meeting [Document 31].

Rumsfeld also met with Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz, and the two agreed, "the U.S. and Iraq shared many common interests." Rumsfeld affirmed the Reagan asministration's "willingness to do more" regarding the Iran-Iraq war, but "made clear that our efforts to assist were inhibited by certain things that made it difficult for us, citing the use of chemical weapons, possible escalation in the Gulf, and human rights." He then moved on to other U.S. concerns [Document 32].

Later, Rumsfeld was assured by the U.S. interests section that Iraq's leadership had been "extremely pleased" with the visit, and that "Tariq Aziz had gone out of his way to praise Rumsfeld as a person" [Document 36 and Document 37].

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