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TAIPEI, Taiwan - The leader of Taiwan's biggest opposition party would have once been jailed or executed for what he plans to do Tuesday: fly to rival China for a weeklong tour that's supposed to climax in a handshake with the Chinese president.

Lien Chan's trip will be the first time in 56 years that the leader of his once staunchly anti-Communist Nationalist Party sets foot in China — just 100 miles west of this leaf-shaped island.

His tour will mark one of the biggest political ironies in the past decade of dizzying change in Taiwan, one of Asia's youngest and most dynamic democracies. The trip might also calm tensions across the Taiwan Strait, where a war could quickly involve U.S. forces.

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Yahoo News

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

From what I hear, it's all he's good at.

I heard he's even taught some of his "tricks" to C"C"P insiders and Hong Kong tycoons.

[ 25 April 2005: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]

Chen will not now show the wounds. Think about that..would Winnie refuse to showcase his cigars? Would Fidel? Those wounds should be on TV more often than Madonna's tits. The last time I saw Chen was in Palau, on the beach. He was the guy in full scuba suit, tank and mask.

Remember...The Kuomintang and its allies are the far-right parties in Taiwan, while the pro-Taiwan parties are centre-left parties whose leaders have fought for democracy and freedom against the totalitarian, right-wing, and pro-USA Kuomintang throughout the 70s and 80s.

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Originally posted by Panama Jack:
Academics are denoucing Lien's trip -- warning him of the good chance that he'll be charged for treason for his actions. That probably won't happen but China is clearly trying (and succeedng) to divide and conquer the Taiwanese- R.O.C. people by treating Lien as a de-facto head of state.

Has for the destabilizing effect ... we will certainly see in a month with the next round of elections in the Legislative Yuan. The KMT has been looking to retake control of the legislature, but many are worried that Lien's trip might derail this (so in a way Newbie you might be thanking Lien for his treasonous activities ! )

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Huh? The pan-Blue parties won the Legislative Yuan elections in December.

Why the Mainlanders who allowed this situation to happen are allowed to vote given the terrible things they've done to both Han and non-Han Taiwanese is beyond me.

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
Don't you think maybe Taiwan should be reunited with the rest of China?

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Still, I do think Taiwan ultimately is, was and always will be a part of China and it would be nice if they could work out an amicable resolution.

You ask:

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Why? Should Austria be reunited with Germany?

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China has not been the one who was oppressing the Taiwanese people over the last 50 years. That was clearly the U.S. and its puppets.

I think it would be highly preferable for Taiwanese representatives to negotiate some form of autonomy within a unified China. Most of the world supports this position. I expect that there is also a fair amount of support for that position among the Taiwanese people, otherwise the Pan-Blue alliance wouldn't enjoy anywhere near the support it does. I am not much enamored with Pan-Blue because of their ties to the past corrupt and repressive regime. But that doesn't mean I can't recognize the inherent justice in restoring the territorial integrity of sovereign China.

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

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Why the Mainlanders who allowed this situation to happen are allowed to vote given the terrible things they've done to both Han and non-Han Taiwanese is beyond me.

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USian Capital wants to suck up to China because its a huge market for them. But they also recognize China is a major if not the major geopolitical rival to the United States as a nation. It helps them if China is strong enough to buy their stuff. But not too strong. Labour costs have to be low enough so they can make their stuff there, cheaply. The ongoing situation with Taiwan also helps divert Chinese military and strategic attention towards the Taiwan Strait and away from, say, the Middle East and the world's largest remaining oil reserves.

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

Canada lacks the geopolitical power of China and we are much closer to the US in a lot of other ways, too. But we have been known to get uppity. It may serve US interests to keep Canadians little bit distracted by our internal divisions as long as the oil keeps flowing south.

In any case, what most Quebec sovereigntists claim to want is some form of "sovereignty-association" rather than outright independence. This is pretty much what is on offer from China to Taiwan, too, isn't it? "One Country, Two Systems?" At the very least, its akin to asymmetrical federalism, something else which is unfortunately not in the cards for Canada currently.

Of course, we've seen in the case of Hong Kong that notwithstanding its prior obligations, the Chinese government has begun to get more than a little heavy-handed in HK local politics. That's an unfortunate consequence of the continuing lack of democracy in mainland China. A fully democratic Hong Kong would be too much of a threat to them. But China itself is changing, very slowly mind you, and I think Hong Kong helps change China.

In any case, Taiwan is in a much better negotiating position than Hong Kong was because Taiwan is already democratic. The British who ran Hong Kong only implemented local democratic measures after they'd already agreed to give the place back, and were actually in the process of handing it over. I think the British were more motivated by the desire to destabilize China by chucking them a live hand grenade, than they were motivated to deliver liberty and justice to the HK people.

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:

China has not been the one who was oppressing the Taiwanese people over the last 50 years. That was clearly the U.S. and its puppets.
[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

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Many of these same Chiang-era American puppets are the same shitstains playing kissy-face with the C"C"P.

Ahhh...

Who cares?

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Originally posted by NDP Newbie:

Huh? The pan-Blue parties won the Legislative Yuan elections in December.

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Their is an election for the "National Assembly", a mostly (but still important) obselete institution on May 14th. I think the pan-Green's still control that house.

Why shouldn't Taiwanese be just as scared of authoritarian "Chinese capital" as opposed to "USian" and (I'd guess you'd lump them up together) "Japanese" captial ?

The fact of the matter is MOST Taiwanese would love for the status quo to be preserved [aka, de facto political independance with Mainland China despite growing economic interdependance].

Both major Taiwanese parties (DPP, KMT) have stipulated that China be an open, democratic society before the "rebel province" would consider reuniting...

I tend to agree with NDP Newbie's assessment on how trustworthy the olde school KMT goons are (too bad their affiailated with one of the most corrupt political organizations EVER).

[ 27 April 2005: Message edited by: Panama Jack ]

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Why shouldn't Taiwanese be just as scared of authoritarian "Chinese capital" as opposed to "USian" and (I'd guess you'd lump them up together) "Japanese" captial ?

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Well, I wouldn't totally lump anyone together. My analysis depends on recognizing distinctions between different national capitalist classes: USian, Japanese, Chinese and even local Taiwanese. In the end, they are all still capitalists and ultimately they have a common agenda in opposition to workers interests. But in the short run, they do compete and I think workers around the world (and particularly in the developing world) benefit from the existence of national-capitalist counterweights to USian hegemony. I think a stronger China, along with the EU, may together offer the best prospects for this.

Plus, my reading of the history convinces me that China does have a legitimate claim to sovereignty over Taiwan, certainly moreso than Japan or the United States, which either directly or through their puppets have occupied it over the years.

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Both major Taiwanese parties (DPP, KMT) have stipulated that China be an open, democratic society before the "rebel province" would consider reuniting...

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BEIJING (Reuters) - Taiwan opposition leader Lien Chan and Chinese President Hu Jintao closed the book on decades of hostility on Friday with a simple handshake in Beijing's Great Hall of the People.

The civil war enemies agreed in a two-hour meeting that they described as frank and friendly to work to end enmity between the Kuomintang (KMT), or Nationalist Party, and the Chinese Communist Party and avoid military conflict in the Taiwan Strait, one of Asia's most dangerous flashpoints.

"The two parties will work together to facilitate the resumption of negotiations as soon as possible ... and facilitate the ending of a hostile state to achieve a basis for peace," Lien's spokesman told a news conference.

But that will depend also on Taiwan's ruling Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), whose independence stance has heightened tension with a mainland China, which views Taiwan as its own and is bent on bringing the self-governed island back under its rule.

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The right to self determination does not mean a right to declare unilateral independence at any time for any reason.

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And do you agree with this Robert? Why should it not?

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
[QB]
I still think reunification is ultimately a good idea. [QB]

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Even if it goes against the wishes of the Taiwanese people ?

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
Well, I wouldn't totally lump anyone together. My analysis depends on recognizing distinctions between different national capitalist classes: USian, Japanese, Chinese and even local Taiwanese. In the end, they are all still capitalists and ultimately they have a common agenda in opposition to workers interests.

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Swallow - I can't say I know clearly what the "majority of Taiwanese people want" because (1) I am not Taiwanese, (2) I haven't conducted any polling or other study of Taiwanese public opinion, (3) I am not sure that the majority of Taiwanese people are sure what they want, either.

I certainly haven't suggested that Taiwan just "go back" to China without qualification, but I have suggested that a negotiated resolution of the dispute would be better than a unilateral declaration of independence. I suspect, although I have no means of being certain, that quite a lot of Taiwanese and mainland Chinese people feel that way, too.

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Opinion polls released by Taiwan's two leading newspapers on Saturday showed many Taiwanese viewed Lien's trip as conducive to peace.

The United Daily News poll said 56 per cent of respondents believed the trip will help improve ties, while 27 per cent said it will not. The remaining had no opinion.

Another poll by the China Times said 50 per cent of the respondents held positive views about Lien's trip and 15.7 per cent were negative. The remaining either had no opinion or did not believe it had any impact.

The polls, both conducted by telephone on Friday, had margins of error of 3.3 and 3.6 per cent points respectively.

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Globe link.

I've been following Taiwan a bit recently because it's tied up with Bush's missile defence plans: for some time, the US has backed a major military sale to Taiwan of submarines, patrol planes and 6 PAC-3 Patriot missile defence batteries. The total cost is estimated at about US $15 billion.

Chen Shui-ban's party supports the sale, but has faced opposition from other parties, including the KMT, who are interested in trimming the costs, according to this story..