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Author Topic: Military to Report Marines Killed Iraqi Civilians
TacitBlue
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posted 26 May 2006 06:33 PM      Profile for TacitBlue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
WASHINGTON, May 25 — A military investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, Congressional, military and Pentagon officials said Thursday.

New York Times article

[ 26 May 2006: Message edited by: TacitBlue ]


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josh
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posted 27 May 2006 06:01 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Witnesses to the slaying of 24 Iraqi civilians by U.S. Marines in the western town of Haditha say the Americans shot men, women and children at close range in retaliation for the death of a Marine lance corporal in a roadside bombing.

Aws Fahmi, a Haditha resident who said he watched and listened from his home as Marines went from house to house killing members of three families, recalled hearing his neighbor across the street, Younis Salim Khafif, plead in English for his life and the lives of his family members. "I heard Younis speaking to the Americans, saying: 'I am a friend. I am good,' " Fahmi said. "But they killed him, and his wife and daughters."

The 24 Iraqi civilians killed on Nov. 19 included children and the women who were trying to shield them, witnesses told a Washington Post special correspondent in Haditha this week and U.S. investigators said in Washington. The girls killed inside Khafif's house were ages 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skeptikool
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posted 27 May 2006 08:06 AM      Profile for skeptikool        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With soldiers running amok, slaughtering indiscriminately, as they did here, one wonders whether recruitment personnel have visited U.S. prisons to target pathologically warped specimens for enlistment.
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unionist
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posted 27 May 2006 08:11 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If this happened in Afghanistan, would we have to preface our critiques by saying:

"I support our troops, however..."


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Boom Boom
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posted 27 May 2006 09:50 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On one of the news programs last night, Bush was pre-empting the outcry over the killings by emphasizing the 'good' that the military is doing in Iraq. One guy was showing off all the Bronze Stars given out to the troops as an indication of how much sacrifice the troops are making on behalf of Iraq and the world. Then, some footage of the My Lai massacre, the implication being this will be seen around the world as another My Lai.
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TacitBlue
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posted 27 May 2006 11:37 AM      Profile for TacitBlue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
On one of the news programs last night, Bush was pre-empting the outcry over the killings by emphasizing the 'good' that the military is doing in Iraq. One guy was showing off all the Bronze Stars given out to the troops as an indication of how much sacrifice the troops are making on behalf of Iraq and the world. Then, some footage of the My Lai massacre, the implication being this will be seen around the world as another My Lai.

I saw the same program. (Did you hear how Bush pronounced Abu Ghraib?) Displaying the number of combat medals awarded to American soldiers in Iraq is pointless. No government asked the United States to invade Iraq and sacrifice their soldiers, and those medals were awarded by the U.S. armed forces as opposed to, say, the Iraqi government on behalf of its people. They're medals solely representative of American military culture and values. If the U.S. government and military wish to demonstrate the "good" that the presence of their troops has done, progress on the ground in terms of decreased civilian casualties, increased access to basic human needs, and etc. should be presented. Progress in Iraq can't be measured by the actions of American soldiers since more than bravery is required to reconstruct a country.

[ 27 May 2006: Message edited by: TacitBlue ]


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Boom Boom
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posted 27 May 2006 11:57 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought the whole exercise (showing how many medals were awarded) was pointless, for the same reason you mentioned. It was also a desperate maneuver to stave off the inevitable criticism over the massacre. Again, pointless.
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siren
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posted 27 May 2006 01:21 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would assume the highlighting of American soldier's medals was for domestic consumption.

So, along the lines of what unionist is suggesting, Americans might feel compelled to say something like, "I support our troops, BUT...".

I caught the mis-pronunciation of Abu Ghraib from Commander in Chief Smirky McFuckUp during the so-called "mistakes I may have made" segment of the Blair/Bush interview. If he was so dang nab upset for the people tortured there, he might have taken the time to learn to pronounce the prison name properly.

He also looked out into the audience directly after and smirked broadly. I don't know why.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 28 May 2006 03:44 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
With soldiers running amok, slaughtering indiscriminately, as they did here, one wonders whether recruitment personnel have visited U.S. prisons to target pathologically warped specimens for enlistment.

Apparently, you haven't heard of the "banality of evil". It is a certainty that events like this occur in war, because of the incredible pressure which builds up as the troops see their buddies' heads blown off.

I have no doubt there were similar instances, not only during the Vietnam War, and the Korean War (there was recently evidence on a mass murder by GIs back in 1950 or so) and World War II.

That is one good reason why war has to be resorted to only for the most compelling of reasons, such as self-defence.

When you get an unjustified war, such as Iraq, killings like this are both criminal, and AVOIDABLE.


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Slumberjack
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posted 30 May 2006 10:58 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They strafe villages in Afghanistan, torture men and women in secret prisons, invade the homes of innocent people in Iraq to kill women and children, and the sham trial of these murderers will again result in light sentences, if that. A society that cultivates its people to think of their nation as the best breeds people who think of themselves as some kind of master nation. It has been proven through this 'war on terror' that the lives of other peoples around the world matter not one iota to the average American citizen. Nothing that they have done to innocent victims in these countries is a surprise. The inhumane brutality of the US soldier is a product of their rotten culture.
From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 30 May 2006 09:16 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Countlesss My Lai Massacres in Iraq
quote:
Once again, like Abu Ghraib, a few US soldiers are being investigated about what occurred in Haditha. The "few bad apples" scenario is being repeated in order to obscure the fact that Iraqis are being slaughtered every single day. The "shoot first ask questions later" policy, which has been in effect from nearly the beginning in Iraq, creates trigger-happy American soldiers and US-backed Iraqi death squads who have no respect for the lives of the Iraqi people. Yet, rather than high-ranking members of the Bush administration who give the orders, including Bush himself, being tried for the war crimes they are most certainly guilty of, we have the ceremonial "public hanging" of a few lowly soldiers for their crimes committed on the ground.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 01 June 2006 02:32 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unfortunately I have to say it again and again - most Americans and especially those with relatives in the military and/or support the war DO NOT CARE how many Iraqis die as long as their soldier/sailor/airman/Marine comes home safe. I've heard it time and again down here - "its war, shit happens." Yeah, so long as it happens to those who don't quite look like us.

The massacre in Haditha is barely registering on the American consciousness. We're comfortably numb to it all now.


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Noise
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posted 01 June 2006 02:46 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Personally, I'm not sure what is worse... The fact that it happened (lil sympathy towards the soldiers perhaps, who knows what goes through their minds in a situation like that)... But the complete cover-up is hideous. The men who commited these crimes were basically told that it was OK, go about your business and we'll take care of this.

I'm concerned that all the blame for this will get put on the soldiers to distract people from the cover up. The branch of the military that lied and covered the event up are as guilty as the soldiers are.

[ 01 June 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 01 June 2006 03:23 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
New Iraq Massacre Tape Emerges from the BBC.

This one seems to be 11 civilians murdered in Ishaqi last March. Another cover up.


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S1m0n
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posted 01 June 2006 04:22 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Betcha there's lots more where these have come from. Abu Ghraib demonstrated the 'dangers' (from an army propaganda POV) of the widespread availablitity of cameras in the hands of soldiers.

Haditha and now this are going to demonstrate the hazards to an occupier of camers in the hands of the occupied.


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josh
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posted 02 June 2006 05:57 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki lashed out at the American military on Thursday, denouncing what he characterized as habitual attacks by troops against Iraqi civilians.

As outrage over reports that American marines killed 24 Iraqis in the town of Haditha last year continued to shake the new government, the country's senior leaders said that they would demand that American officials turn over their investigative files on the killings and that the Iraqi government would conduct its own inquiry.

In his comments, Mr. Maliki said violence against civilians had become a "daily phenomenon" by many troops in the American-led coalition who "do not respect the Iraqi people."

"They crush them with their vehicles and kill them just on suspicion," he said. "This is completely unacceptable."


http://tinyurl.com/o966y


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 02 June 2006 02:20 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Meanwhile, Canadian courts continue to turn down American soldiers claiming status here on the basis that violations of international law in Iraq is "not widespread."
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Noise
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posted 02 June 2006 02:26 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the BBC article linked a few posts above (referring to American troops):
quote:
For the next 30 days, they would receive lessons in "core warrior values", a military statement said.

Apparently not killing unarmed children doesn't fit under regular boot camp training.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 02 June 2006 02:32 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Posted by AE:
quote:
The massacre in Haditha is barely registering on the American consciousness. We're comfortably numb to it all now.

The same was likely the case when the My Lai massacre first came to light in the Vietnam era.

These atrocities do have a corrosive effect on support for the war over time, not only because of the loss of Iraqi lives but also because of the dehumanizing impact on US soldiers.


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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 03 June 2006 06:01 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by John K:
Posted by AE:

The same was likely the case when the My Lai massacre first came to light in the Vietnam era.

These atrocities do have a corrosive effect on support for the war over time, not only because of the loss of Iraqi lives but also because of the dehumanizing impact on US soldiers.


Last night on Wolf Blitzer's CNN show one of the political experts said that no matter what happened, US politicians can not be seen to criticise the military in any way - its the kiss of political death. So we're back to the "few bad apples" rationale for all of this mayhem. Meanwhile the Iraqis say Hadithas happen every week - we just don't hear about them.


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josh
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posted 03 June 2006 08:22 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

AMERICA'S alliance with the new Iraqi government was plunged into major crisis last night as the country's prime minister and its people reacted with fury to the US military clearing its forces of killing civilians during operations against insurgents.

Iraqi leaders vowed to press on with their own probe into one of the most notorious American raids against extremist fighters, in the town of Ishaqi, rejecting the US military's exoneration of its forces.

Adnan al-Kazimi, an aide to prime minister Nuri al-Maliki, said the government would also demand an apology from the United States and compensation for the victims in several cases, including the alleged massacre in the town of Haditha last year.


http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=824382006


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B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 04 June 2006 01:57 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

Apparently, you haven't heard of the "banality of evil". It is a certainty that events like this occur in war, because of the incredible pressure which builds up as the troops see their buddies' heads blown off.


I have, and I assure you that Arendt's notion of the "banality of evil" had nothing to do with soldiers relieving pent-up frustrations. Arendt coined the phrase in her reports on the trial of Adolf Eichmann and it was an attempt to conceptualise a kind of milquetoast, bureaucratic "evil" free from the kind of direct, intentional malice that we usually associate with "evil" An "evil" that goes to the office, pushes a pen, and engages in largely "rational" pursuits, without the slightest moral twinge over the fact that the results of their bookkeeping is the deaths of countless people.

In specific, she was trying to reconcile the horrific acts of Eichmann with his apparent mediocrity. He was no monster, yet his acts were monstrous. He was a master administrator and yet (in Arendt's words)
"... the only specific characteristic one could detect in his past as well as in his behavior during the trial and the preceding police examination was something entirely negative: it was not stupidity but a curious, quite authentic inability to think." In other words, it was his thoughtlessness that made him "evil".

In another way, she was attempting to conceptualise "evil" as it manifests itself in a rationalist, industrial and bureaucratic mode - i.e. modernity. Perhaps more importantly, she was trying to theorise the question (posed by the Enlightenment) of whether or not thinking in and of itself was a protection against evildoing.

Anyway, likening this to the sort of commonplace atrocities carried out by standard grunts in warfare is a misapplication of the phrase.

[ 04 June 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 June 2006 04:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The vast majority of Americans have no idea what the war in Iraq is really like. One line that I hear constantly from people here in Iowa (in the context of killing unarmed civilians) is that our boys and girls are good boys and girls but that having to exist in Iraq would turn anyone a little nuts. But this always raises a sore point with me and one most Americans don't want to face. It is simply that Americans aren't the only species on the human globe.

Keith Gottschalk


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polly Brandybuck
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posted 21 December 2006 05:07 PM      Profile for Polly Brandybuck     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CBC
From: To Infinity...and beyond! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 21 December 2006 05:17 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the CBC link:
quote:
Iraqi witnesses, who described the slayings as a massacre, have alleged the marines gunned the civilians down in their homes to avenge the marine's death.
So how does that not qualify as "premeditated" murder?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 21 December 2006 05:19 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
IANAL, but I am guessing it would be because they did not intend the killings before the events of that day.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 17 October 2007 11:13 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who could've guessed this outcome?

Murderers to go free

quote:
"The evidence is contradictory, the forensic analysis is limited and almost all the witnesses have an obvious bias or prejudice," wrote investigating officer Lt. Col. Paul Ware.

Ware was referring to the case against Marine Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich charged with 17 counts of murder for his role as the squad leader in the Iraqi town of Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005.

"The case against Staff Sgt. Wuterich that he committed murder is simply not strong enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt," Ware wrote. "What the evidence does point to is that Wuterich failed to exercise due care in his own action or in supervising his Marines."


1) There was video evidence. This is not mentioned in the ABC report (nor any MSM story outside of the BBC, from what I can tell).

2) Of course the witnesses are biased. Doesn't every witness provide a bias if they are describing the execution-style murder of friends and neighbours?

3) Shouldn't a legitimate trial actually have a prosecutor who's trying his darndest to win his case? Just wow.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 October 2007 11:20 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
From the CBC link: So how does that not qualify as "premeditated" murder?

Because they were just following orders?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged

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