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Author Topic: Pregnancy and Motherhood
Shenanigans
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posted 23 February 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for Shenanigans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think this is in the right place, since all the reading I've done on the topic has been from mainly feminist authors...so far. I'm slowly devouring all available titles and will be entering the cute baby books soon.

Anyhow, since my partner and I have decided we want children, my mind has been on the topic 24/7 and I'm worried of the whole medical establishment. In my wide scientific research of anecdotal evidence I have come across more than a few women who have said that they felt that their pregnancy was really pathologised.

Furthermore I'm really not keen on the ideal of having a "routine" episiotomy or c-section. My family doctor who is also an obstetrician is very conventional, and while I like her as a person and a doctor for my bumps and bruises, I'm not confident in her willingness to respect my thoughts and wishes during the birth. Obviously if the baby is in distress, I'm prepared for any surgical intervention, but I don't want it done as a matter of course, so long as the pregnancy and childbirth are going along fine.

I'm a feminist counsellor, so I truly live and believe that an informed woman's choices at important times of her life should be supported. Also my spiritual and core beliefs are really of that that childhood is natural and while I'm still on the fence on homebirth vs hospital for myself, I really don't want an environment where a woman having a baby is a big medical crisis.

I'm currently looking into midwives and trying to track down an old friend who became one. Has anyone managed to go through a pregnancy and childbirth with for lack of better term feminist or women centred beliefs?

For all I know, there are scores of hospitals out there that provide this, but me being generally skeptical of the medical establishment is probably weighing heavily, so if anyone has positive experiences of such, I'd also like to hear them.

Thanks


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 February 2004 01:32 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In Montreal there is a "centre de naissance", a birthing centre, in a lovely old building, probably a former small convent (of which we have many) - women can give birth there in a less medicalised setting than a big general hospital, but with better follow-up than at home, and it is extremely close to Montreal Children's and Jewish General Hospitals if there is an emergency. Isn't there something similar in Toronto?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 23 February 2004 01:55 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In Ontario, women are lucky to be able to give birth at home with the help of midwives. In Quebec, that is still illegal (!!!).

In the past, I would have thought of a home birth as a new agey thing that totally wouldn't apeal to me at all, but the more I read about it, the more I would consider it. The thought of being in my own bed with my partner and baby minutes after giving birth is really appealing.

There are other differences in the way Ontario and Quebec deal with the midwifery profession. In Quebec midwives are just now starting o be allowed to operate in hospitals, with their own admitting privileges. Like lagatta says the tradition (albeit a short one, since it is only about 10 years that the profession has been recognized) is for midwives to operate in free standing midwife-run birthing centres. If there are complications, the women are shuttled to the nearby hospital.

Ontario is kind of reversed. Midwives have had admiting privileges in hospitals for years, and there are no birthing centres (I wonder if that's more of a funding issue than a policy one?).

All of my close friends have had their babies with midwives and have been very happy with the result. We are lucky in Canada to have this choice (I think some provinces are still lagging behind, though).

I'm at a similar decision-making stage as you, Shenanigans, I'd love to know what books you read. I read Naomi Wolf's Misconceptions, and parts of it were useful and insightful. Basically she wanted a feminist birth, but because of her fears and the American medical system she ended up with pretty much a slam-bam-thank-you-mam c-section birth. She has great advice on how to avoid that route. Just skip chapters that go on and on about her existential crises about her husband's lack of interest in hosuework.

Be sure to check out the Association of Ontario Midwives' website. They have great information on giving birth with a midwife, how to find a midwife, and links to website for midwifery practices across Ontario.

Edited to add:
For women in other parts of the country, check out http://members.rogers.com/canadianmidwives/canada.html
They list the status of midwifery in each province, with links to the provincial associations.

It is really unfortunate to note that the Saskatchewan NDP been so slow to implement proper midwifery legislation.

[ 23 February 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]

[ 24 February 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 23 February 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Midwives now have hospital access in Montreal. If you wanted to have one you now have that option. They will work on your behalf to make your birth as un-medical as possible.

We still need to wait for Dh to finish his education. It's SOOOOO hard. I've been antsy for about three years now.

Congratulations on starting the process. Try not to think about it too much though, or your stress hormones will interfere with your fertility... or so I've heard.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 23 February 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It is really unfortunate to note that the Saskatchewan NDP been so slow to implement proper midwifery legislation.

Well, there are some of us who find a way to step around the legislation and have home births with midwives anyway.

Shenanigans, you are in a good, albeit not perfect, region of the country to go with a midwife. Ontario has the best-established and most open access to midwifery in either a home or hospital setting in the country.

I had my first baby in the hospital, doctor-assisted delivery (never forget - you do the delivery!), and my second was born at home with a midwife. While my first experience was not a horrific one, I would go for a home birth again in a heartbeat.

Even if I did wind up with another hospital birth, there are some things I would do differently. I was induced because I was an arbitrary 7 days overdue, which made labour tougher than it needed to be, and was verbally abused by the OB when I questioned the necessity. I would not be so easily intimidated now. I would also go home sooner than 24 hours after giving birth -- I couldn't sleep in the hospital, and was soooooo exhausted when I got home. It just wasn't necessary after an uncomplicated, med-free birth (when they brought the wheelchair, I put my bags in it and walked to the mat ward).

Some of the things about the hospital in general that bothered me were the sense of bewilderment over my unwillingness to use the nursery. I had specified that I would be rooming-in with my baby, and after she was born they seemed to think that it was okay for them to whisk her off for bathing and checking over. They thought the blond guy was very odd for insisting on carrying his daughter and staying with her every moment (he was adorable, btw, singing to her "she's just the cutest little baby in the world, cutest little baby in the world, from her head down to her pooper, we think she's super-duper, just the cutest little baby in the world"). They also thought I was a weirdo for waiting with her while they did the heel-prick test, etc, instead of leaving her with them and going back to my room. I saw the other babies wailing away without their mommies and it just about made me cry.

The nursing thing was also a bit surreal. I had no less than 3 nurses standing over me at one point, because wee Ms B's cheeks were "dimpling" and we weren't sure she was latching on quite right. After nearly an hour of frustration, approaching despair, one of the nurses looked at us and said, "Hey, do either of you guys have dimples?" We both do. Apparently, so did our baby. Go figure.

With our second baby, things were so much more relaxed for the birth, but the choices we made in planning a home birth turned out to be a lot more political than we had counted on.

There are only a few midwives in Saskatchewan, and at the time (a little over 3 years ago), they were acknowledged in legislation but did not have guidelines in place under Saskatchewan Health. In other words, they're legal, but home birth isn't strictly legal (or illegal) and they have no hospital priveleges. We decided to take advantage of the grey areas in the law and plan a home birth. We were strongly discouraged by my doctor (who is, at heart, a good guy and a very good physician) who thought he might have done something wrong and actually took an hour to debate the decision with me. In the end, he agreed to be back-up at the hospital if I ran into trouble.

Anyway, our midwife got called out of province, and we had a back-up, but no nurse to assist. We got the blond guy's sister, who is an RN and has been trained as a doula to come out here for the birth, but she got the dates wrong and was going to go home on my due date. We had dinner with her the night before she was leaving, and I went into labour that night. She came, the midwife came, wee Ms T was born at 5 am, and my SIL went home a few hours later. 24 hours later, and we would have had a hospital birth after all.

I really liked the home birth. I was in my own space, there were no regulations to argue about, no pestering about interventions I didn't want. I had the focus of the midwife, instead of having a nurse pop in every 15 or so minutes. One objection to home birth I've heard often is that something can go wrong in a blink of an eye. It's crap. It seems that way to the traditional medical community because they leave you alone for long stretches. A midwife is right there with you pretty much the whole time and keeping tabs on the labour. I find that much more comforting than a machine that goes "ping".

The best part was, after my wee gril was born, we both got in the tub together, and then went to sleep in our own bed -- blessed quiet! At 9am, Ms B got up and toddled into our room to meet her sister. It was relaxed, quiet, serene. I was much more rested, even with a 3 yr old around the house. Food I could eat. My own bed without institutional-smelling sheets or plastic pillows. A world of difference.

Now that I've waxed on about how much I love home birth, I will say something very important. Home birth isn't for everyone. If you are at all uncomfortable without the medical stuff (including pain meds) at your fingertips, don't go for it. Take into account your risk factors and level of fitness, as well as your partner's comfort zone. If the blond guy had not been so gung ho, I might have chosen differently.

Sorry for the long post. I could go on even longer about this stuff. I've always felt choosing the method of birthing your children is a feminist issue -- we're told we have the right to choose whether or not we carry a pregnancy to term, but if we do, our options are often limited by old men who just don't have a clue.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 23 February 2004 05:20 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
My daughter decided to go back to school at a point when I knew that the available public options were abysmal. While I fretted and worried about what to do she went off and located a mentor to help her get the paperwork organized, found a ride, applied, and was accepted. She was about nine years old at the time. I was shocked but proud of her initiative and daring, and let her go. As it turned out I was right to worry. The school was terrible. But I supported her in going, and trundled along to the meetings and events. It would have been easier to say no and keep her home, but it was a better lesson for her to make the choice and accept the consequences.

From an interview with my friend Bee Lavender, about What Kids Need.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 23 February 2004 05:31 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Great story, Zoot, thanks for sharing it. It really confirms my growing interest in having a home-birth.

Audra: interesting interview, but I don't see the connection between home-births and home-schooling. For me, my decisions about the former don't affect my feelings about the latter.


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 23 February 2004 05:35 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Midwifery remains a safe alternative

quote:
Thus, when our first child was born at home in 1992, we gladly paid for the services of our midwives. By the time that our second child arrived in 1994, the service was fully covered by the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP). (For this reason alone, it’s not exactly true to say, therefore, that the only legacy of the Bob Rae New Democratic Party (NDP) government was “casino gambling and a private Highway 407” — as Toronto Star columnist Thomas Walkom cruelly observed in April.)

Midwives believe that pregnancy and childbirth are “normal, healthy events in a woman’s life” and see the role of midwives as “guardians of normal childbirth”.



From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 23 February 2004 05:35 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't mean to imply any connection. This thread is called "Pregnancy and Motherhood"
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 23 February 2004 05:44 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess... but the topic really is giving birth. Wouldn't it make more sense to discuss home-schooling in another thread?

[ 23 February 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]

[ 23 February 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 23 February 2004 05:59 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Scott, your article brings up a point I missed in my much-too-long first post. Although midwives are acknowledged in law in Saskatchewan, midwifery care/services are not covered by Saskatchewan Health. We paid out-of-pocket for the ongoing care and the assistance with the delivery -- prenatal and postnatal check-ups, etc.

It was a reasonable cost, much less than what a doctor would have charged for a much better service. Still, it limits the access to midwifery care even further.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 23 February 2004 06:24 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good lord. Fine.

Don't talk about the article I posted in this thread, no matter what you do!


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 February 2004 06:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I see the problem. People are reading the thread title in two different ways.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 23 February 2004 07:34 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Good lord. Fine.
Don't talk about the article I posted in this thread, no matter what you do!

Sorry, audra, didn't mean to leave you out. I just used up my free time this aft responding to the earlier stuff.

It's an interesting article. I'm not sure how to respond, exactly. I think there are some things I may agree with Bee Lavender on, and others that I would vehemently disagree with.

Take home schooling, for instance. Nice concept, but judging from some of the home-schooled students my friends in academia are dealing with, it doesn't seem to be any better than public schooling, just different pitfalls. I have a grad student friend who is currently teaching and has a home-schooled student who has "adopted" her -- ie: follows her around after class and asks her to sit down and work with her... The kid has clearly never been taught to be independent.

I also know some home schoolers who feel I am completely mad for leaving my sweet baby to the tender mercies of the educational system, considering there is a certain amount of debunking necessary on some of the material the kids are presented with.

And then there's attachment parenting...

Didn't I already do one marathon post on this thread? I'd better let somebody else post so I don't completely dominate it.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 February 2004 08:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Shenanigans, as a mother who gladly had a hospital birth, complete with the whole nine yards of epidural and episiotomy, my experience was that not only were episiotomies and c-sections not "routine", but during my labour class (I only took one, a day long session on a Saturday at the hospital where I was to give birth), they talked about all sorts of options of drugless child birth. They had beautiful labour suites, with jacuzzis and comfortable furniture along with a very comfortable bed, and you didn't have to be moved into a new room to deliver the baby. This was at Mt. Sinai in Toronto.

I knew from before I got pregnant that I wanted to have my baby in a hospital with an obstetrician as many pain killers as humanly possible. And I felt that was just as deeply a feminist decision as having a midwife and a home birth.

My obstetrician was about as "conventional" as they come. And yet, all the decisions were completely mine, from pain management to episiotomy. BTW, my son was 10 lbs., 1 oz., which should explain why the episiotomy was done. However, they did ask me before doing it and I consented.

I also believe that childbirth is natural, and I don't feel my childbearing was "medicalized" or made into an illness or anything. Actually, since I had morning sickness for 8 of the 9 months, I guess I did feel kind of ill. But no one ever treated me as though I was ill, and I was always given choices about everything. Being pregnant was pretty cool, and giving birth was even all right too (especially since I didn't feel much pain and slept through much of the labour due to the painkillers). My husband got to cut the umbilical cord, I could have had an army of people there with me if I'd wanted it (I only had my husband and my mother - Dad waited outside, his choice). I asked to see the placenta afterwards, which was pretty neat.

So yes, I did go through a pregnancy and childbirth with feminist and woman-centred beliefs. It was pretty great overall, and if I had to do it again, I might consider a midwife and no painkillers, but I doubt it. No pain was at the top of my list of concerns with childbirth, and what I demanded, I got. That was what was empowering for me. My personal idea of a feminist child birth was (and is), give me everything 21st century technology has to offer me in pain control, and make it a double.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 23 February 2004 09:41 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
My personal idea of a feminist child birth was (and is), give me everything 21st century technology has to offer me in pain control, and make it a double.

'Kay, I'm having trouble with how to respond to this without sounding like a jerk. Maybe I just am one...

The problem, philosophically, that I had with the idea of taking pain meds, especially the epidural, is that you no longer fully control your own body -- the anaesthesiologist does. And the increase in risk of caesarean section was too much for me. I have a phobia about hospitals in general, and actual surgery scares the liver out of me.

I mean, you're supposed to feel childbirth. How can your body talk to you if you can't feel it?

Not that I'm saying technologies have no place -- on the contrary, I think they do, and know lots of women who needed medical intervention in birthing their children and benefitted from the best it has to offer. I just think that we've magnified that place to an unhealthy degree in our culture.

The other thing, too, Michelle, is that you may not have experienced the sullenness they treat you to when you turn down their shiny machines that go "ping". Believe me, the last thing you need is a snarky intern who was really counting on watching them administer an epidural on his shift when you're in transition.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 24 February 2004 12:04 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hope to have a homebirth. I might get too fearful though and go for a hospital birth. It's irrational I know, but, they do a good job of making you not trust your instincts. My Mom is a nurse and is of the "anything can happen" mindset. Rubbs off sometimes.

Definatley want a midwife though, and no drugs. I know it will hurt, but, I'm only doing this a couple of times in my life, I want to feel it.

It's odd though. I have two minds about my husband. I either want him totally involved or standing outside. I don't know where that comes from.

I'd like to use a sling too, for the baby when he or she is born. They look really handy. I like those bedside cribs that you can get now that attach to the adult bed. Might do that. We'll see. I'm not even trying to concieve yet!

I just love the topic. I'd like to be a midwife, but, it's not in the cards right now. Maybe become a doula first, after my own children are here.

[ 24 February 2004: Message edited by: Trinitty ]


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 24 February 2004 12:41 AM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I actually didn't find it tremendously painful, more like a really tough workout in the middle, and a little painful in transition, but by then you're in the home stretch.

I used the sling with both my wee ones. It was especially handy with wee Ms T, as she refused to be put down or handed to anyone else for more than a nanosecond for the first 2 month. Still, wound up with sore shoulders sometimes.

You don't really need a bed that attaches to yours. The kid will be in your bed regardless, if you decide to go that route. They like to be right close.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 February 2004 03:16 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zoot Capri:
'Kay, I'm having trouble with how to respond to this without sounding like a jerk. Maybe I just am one...

I don't think you're a jerk.

quote:
The problem, philosophically, that I had with the idea of taking pain meds, especially the epidural, is that you no longer fully control your own body -- the anaesthesiologist does.

This in no way invalidates my personal philosophical viewpoint that I would rather have drugs to kill the pain. Maybe you would have felt that the anaesthesiologist controls your body during an epidural. I did not feel that way at all, considering that the anaesthesiologist was only there as long as it took to put the epidural in my back. The rest of the time I was in complete control of everything that happened to my body, and in fact, I was in complete control during the epidural too, because it was fully my decision to have one, and he was carrying it out. Just because I can't feel the pain doesn't mean I'm not in control.

quote:
And the increase in risk of caesarean section was too much for me. I have a phobia about hospitals in general, and actual surgery scares the liver out of me.

I don't have a phobia about hospitals. I feel quite comfortable in them. So I felt fine, and like the master of the situation.

quote:
I mean, you're supposed to feel childbirth. How can your body talk to you if you can't feel it?

Says you. That's a value judgment that I don't share. It's true that it wasn't as easy for me to recognize when I needed to push. But that was a trade-off that I knew about going in, which I was fully informed about, and I took it, because I don't believe that there is somehow virtue in being in severe pain. I know there are others who want to experience it fully - I have no problem with that, and more power to them. It was not my personal decision though, and I feel that my decision was fully feminist in nature.

quote:
The other thing, too, Michelle, is that you may not have experienced the sullenness they treat you to when you turn down their shiny machines that go "ping". Believe me, the last thing you need is a snarky intern who was really counting on watching them administer an epidural on his shift when you're in transition.

Nope, you're right, I haven't experienced that. Because when the resident anaesthesiologist came in to talk to me about the epidural, he ran through an entire list of things that could possibly go wrong, in order that I agree to the procedure with informed consent. After hearing a detailed description of the procedure, and hearing the various things that could go "wrong" (although they were very, very slim chances on all of them), I felt rather unreasonably freaked out, got cold feet, and told him I thought I might change my mind. He was perfectly fine with that, as were all the doctors and nurses I encountered who let me make my own decisions. An hour and a half later, when the pain became pretty intense, I wanted the epidural pretty badly, and they gave it to me. All my decisions.

I doubt my obstetrician would have heard of giving me a c-section, despite the huge size of my baby, and despite the fact that the very potent epidural made me unable to tell easily when it's time to push, which is something they warn you about. Instead, he came in, took a look at my dilation and said, "Right then, let's get this show on the road," and the baby was delivered in about 5 minutes.

I'm not saying my way was perfect, and lots of people would not have liked my way of doing it at all. But it was perfect for me, and therefore, in my opinion, a fully feminist way of giving birth - because it was fully my decision, how to do it, every step of the way. Just as your child birth was a fully feminist way of giving birth for you, because you had your decisions respected.

[ 24 February 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
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posted 24 February 2004 11:05 AM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm really happy that we have the luxury of a fairly wide spectrum of options when it comes to childbirth. I'm not even thinking of trying to conceive (rather quite the opposite, really! ), but I find it really heartening to read the descriptions of so many different experiences. I think that signals some major accomplishments of feminism, that we've been able to wrestle back a lot of control over a domain that really should be ours.

Pregnancy and childbirth are a ways off yet for me, but when I think about how I'd like it to go, in an ideal, perfect scenario, I think I'd like a home birth, with a midwife and my mom and/or sister/best girlfriend there, and my partner too. I like Zoot's story of sleeping in her own bed that night, and being able to eat her own good food etc. That kinda thing is important to me too. I also place a lot of significance on the minutiae (comes from an english degree and a penchant for deciphering the symbolic, I think), and so I really think I would value having my own home be the first place in the outside world that the baby knows. No plastic bassinettes or starched white sheets...no strangers or flourescent lights. I imagine it would be easier on the baby that way too.

So one day, maybe that's the way I'll do it.


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 24 February 2004 11:50 AM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I doubt my obstetrician would have heard of giving me a c-section, despite the huge size of my baby, and despite the fact that the very potent epidural made me unable to tell easily when it's time to push, which is something they warn you about. Instead, he came in, took a look at my dilation and said, "Right then, let's get this show on the road," and the baby was delivered in about 5 minutes.

I was referring to any specific person when I talked about increased chances of c-section when you have an epidural. Statistically, and if I remember correctly, these figures came from the AMA, women who have an epidural increase the chances of having a c-section from 1 in 4 to 1 in 2. Being terrified of the prospect, I opted not.

I also didn't find labour to be severe pain, as long as they didn't make me sit still.

I'm not trying to invalidate your choice, Michelle. I'm still of the opinion that even though they run through the complications inherent in procudures doesn't mean they necessarily are clear on the statistical chances you're taking -- this is what I found about inducement, for instance. If I had known, in my first pregnancy, what I did in my second, that prostaglandin gel would have gone up the OB's left nostril with quite some force.

They didn't tell me induction would up my chances of c-section AT ALL, never mind how much.

There's a long history and continuing habit of giving women incomplete information, and that's something that really bothers me.

[ 24 February 2004: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Shenanigans
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posted 24 February 2004 05:00 PM      Profile for Shenanigans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, this topic has truly been interesting here. I posted a similar thing on another forum I visit, but not nearly as much or varied replies.

I am happy that I live in Ontario and have access to midwives under healthcare and who can act as my primary caregiver. However, obtaining a midwife is a whole different story, they are highly in demand and short in supply. That said, I did get positive results from the two widwifery centres in Scarborough, and it would seem that they have less of a wait time than those in the downtown core. Less breeders here??? lol

Zoot, your experience with a homebirth sounds absolutely lovely. I love the thought of being at home (since I am such a homebody) and just being able to relax and be cozy. Fortunately, if there is a crisis, the nearest hospital is a 5 minute drive away. I think since I also am not fond of hospitals that in the end, it might be a wiser choice in terms of keeping my stress levels down. Decisions decisions!

Michelle, your birth sounds very ideal for you too, since you seemed very comfortable with it. Personally all that scares the willies out of me, however I am glad you shared your story and if need be I can have some faith that there are doctors out there willing to still respect the choices of mothers even in their own backyard.

I too am feeling very antsy about starting a family. It's gone beyond wanting something the way one would want a career goal or new toy for birthdays, I'm constantly dreaming babies, thinking babies, it's a want that I really can't explain. Right now, most of my efforts into work and home renovations are because of the baby. Goodness, I've even started cleaning up some of my language. LOL We've given ourselves a three month timeline to get some tasks finished before we start trying so I feel like I'm sitting on pins and needles.

I do have a booklist, but not on me, my little baby book is left at a friend's house (I better start shaping up! lol) I will post as soon as I get it back. I too have been reading Misconceptions by Naomi Wolf. I'm kind of on different trains of thought on it. Part of it is absolutely scary, other parts of it almost seem gratiutous. And the existential chapters are very weird! I'd like to find something more of an anthology of women giving birth.

This thread is about motherhood in a way. Although it's probably too early to discuss schooling options yet I was personally thinking more about sense of identity, what type of mother would I be, how I might mourn the loss of individuality, or how it might evolve into something new. How to bond with my child, how to raise them either gender to be progressive little rugrats.

There aren't birthing centres here from what I can tell, which is a pity. I'd like to go to one where they have all the facilities including warm baths and pools. Since I'm such a water baby, a water birth really appeals to me, but I'm not aware of any facilities that allow for that. It will be one of the first questions I ask my midwife when we do conceive.

Anyhow, thanks for all the replies, holy cow, I learned a lot, so I felt the need to say a lot.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 24 February 2004 05:23 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Huh. My little girl just turned 2 months old on Sunday, so I guess this is kind of relevant for me. (And if anyone wondered why I haven't been posting lately, now you know.)

I've been keeping a journal of my experiences during the pregnancy and the birth and now as a mother, it's at athenadreaming.org/Sprout if anyone wants to take a gander.

As a type 1 diabetic I had a VERY medically controlled and monitored pregnancy. I fought it every step of the way and had plenty of evidence on my side, but the doctors were not willing to consider any variations in policy--even though those policies were developed fifty years ago when anything even approaching good blood sugar control was impossible. I had visits every two weeks from the beginning, ultrasounds galore, and had been told on my first visit that they wouldn't "allow" me to go past my due date.

There was no such thing as informed consent. They did not tell me waht the risks of a procedure were, then get my permissino. They simply told me what I was to do and when I was to do it. It was patronizing and insulting, but as a type 1 diabetic regular doctors and midwives won't touch your pregnancy, so I really didn't have a choice unless I wanted an unassisted homebirth.

This caused all kinds of problems because one of the ultrasounds identified the baby's legs as being in the 5th percentile for length, so all of a sudden I had ANOTHER load of extra appointments for their bloody concerns about dwarfism and down syndrome. Even though ALL of the baby's measurements were small (I mean, she's a tiny baby all over, not just her legs) and even though shortness runs in my husband's family. This meant even more monitoring and tests. ANd lots of stress, as I'm sure you can imagine.

And then to top it all off, I went into spontaneous labour one month early. Well, you can imagine how much choice I had in the hospital when I showed up. They stuck and electronic fetal monitor on me and wouldn't take it off, no matter how much I asked or even begged, and although being stuck on my back (which you are when you are wearing one) caused me extreme pain. This necessitated an epidural, because I couldn't handle the pain of stationary labour and they would not remove the monitor. Then baby was born (thankfully no episiotomy, but she was only 5 lbs, after all) and off she went to special care nursery because she was a preemie, where she stayed for 8 days with an IV, oxygen sensors, a tube down her nose for feedings, and every visit carefully supervised--when I was allowed to hold her, feed her, change her, bathe her.

Also plenty of very damaging advice about nipple shields and nipple confusion that almost ruined teh nursing relationship completely. We overcame that but it was hard.

And NOW the doctors are all in a lather about her slow weight gain, although her length and head circumference are increasing as expected and she's healthy and strong as a very small horse.

My advice to anyone contemplating pregnancy and childbirth: STAY AWAY FROM DOCTORS. IF you have th echoice of a midwife, take it. You can stillg o to a hospital, and midwives are trained to recognize situations beyond their expertise that really requrie a doctor. Also most of them believe that pain relief ought to be a patient's choice, so while your chances of avoiding are higher, you won't be "condemned" to a painful labour either.

Anyway.

If anyone wants to read the whole gory story with all the details, go to my site and visit the archives. I did tons of research so there's a fair bit of detail on everything the doctors got wrong--and as it turns out, it was plenty. For instance, it turns out baby's legs were never actually short enough to qualify for "dwarfism." Did a doctor tell me that? No, I had to go and research it myself.

Well, I'd better stop, or I'll get myself all pissed off all over again.

Veryw illing to talk about this with anyone who's interested! You can pm or email me if you want.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 24 February 2004 05:50 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Frances is lovely, Athena. I love the name, too.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
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posted 24 February 2004 05:53 PM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
She's so cute!!! I can't believe how much hair she's got!

And I love that her room is green. That'll surely inspire her little mind. Green is good for creativity!

Yay for Frances!


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 24 February 2004 06:07 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, congratulations, Athena. That's such a cute baby. Adorable.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 24 February 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Congratulations, Athena. Your baby's a doll.

Me and the missus are 10 weeks into #2 right now. Last time it was hospital and doctor, but no drugs. This time, it's homebirth with a midwife and we both feel great about it. It's important to remember that there are good and bad midwives (depending on what you want in a birth assistant) just as there are good and bad doctors, but we've got an excellent one as luck would have it. We both like her a lot.

I don't want to slag doctors, but I believe that their training tends to make them arrogant, about birthing and everything else. It's not that surprising, I guess. It would be hard to do their job if you couldn't convince yourself that you had all the answers. As it is, though, c-sections and inductions are far too frequently relied on, and tend to be the answer to most problems. This is just one of many reasons why we're steering clear of them.

Of course, the first birth went so well that we have a lot less trepidation about the whole thing now, and that gives us a lot more leeway to make our own decisions.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 24 February 2004 08:19 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My hearty congrats, Athena. I wondered if you were off in mommy-land.

So sorry you had a tough time with the medical establishment, and with the early nursing. It's hard, especially that first month. Even with a full-term 8lb baby (both of mine were in that ball park), so I can imagine you have even more challenges with a wee preemie.

The baby's lovely, too. Cheers to you!

J22, it sounds like you and your partner went through a similar progression to ours. I had a pretty easy birth with the first one, so home birth was maybe less intimidating for me on the second than it would otherwise have been. And I even had a really great doc for the first one -- he was really worried that he'd done something to offend me when I told him I wanted to go with a midwife.

Medical establishment stuff just isn't for me. But hey, you do what you have to do and you handle what you're dealt.

[ 24 February 2004: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 25 February 2004 09:00 AM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks. She is adorable, isn't she?

It's funny because even now, at two months old and one month adjusted, she's about the size of your average newborn. So people will see her, come up, coo, ask how many days old she is (or he--I've learned that a baby in gender-neutral clothes is assumed to be male), and then she'll hold up her head and they'll look a little freaked.

J22, I agree with you completely, and I think that even more than that, doctors' training teaches them to look for problems. I mean, that's what western medicine is, primarily. Doctors look for problems and then fix them. Which is great, when in fact there is a problem, like a broken leg or cancer. But when there is no problem--pregnancy and childbirth, for instance--it mucks everything up because they are constantly searching for things that don't fit within the norm and then making problems out of them .... It's exhausting.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 25 February 2004 11:58 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OOOOOOHHHHH!!!

Congratulations!!!

She's SO sweet!

I love the colour too! I think DH and I are going to paint a "scene" on the walls of baby's room.... after we try to get pregnant, get pregnant and have children of course. But I love the green.

You look like a very happy Mommy.

======================================

I know what baby-hinking is like, it can be overwhelming. It's very hard to describe, but, you know it's at the very core of your animal, so, it's a hard urge to hold back.

Dh will be in schooling for the next 4 years, at least. We might be in Toronto, we're not sure. But, he will be getting funded for it, and, I could get mat leave..... and I wanted my first before thirty.... what to do. Midwife access is so good in Ontario, it's tempting.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
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posted 25 February 2004 12:47 PM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
adorable, Athena....congrats!

it sure is hard to hold back when the urge takes hold....

don't even get me started on the medical establishment. try having a kid as a single woman. talk about limited choices! having spent several years processing and thinking and deciding that I wanted to do use a donor who was willing to be known to the child, I was told by the fertility clinic here that "single women use anonymous sperm" and that they would not be able to help me if I were working with a known donor. doing this alone will be hard enough, but to have to go through a struggle like this just to GET pregnant is pretty friggin' frustrating.

[ 25 February 2004: Message edited by: vickyinottawa ]

[ 25 February 2004: Message edited by: vickyinottawa ]


From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 25 February 2004 01:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Congratulations, Athena -- Frances Eloise is adorable!

And it is tonic to hear you on the subject of bossy doctors. I'm sorry to hear that they had you so cornered this time, but we have to keep chip-chip-chipping away at all that arrogance, and you sound ready to do it.

Many happy quiet times -- and lively giggly times -- with your little snuggler.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ilana136
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posted 02 March 2004 06:06 PM      Profile for Ilana136   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm 8 weeks along and just had appt. # 2 with a midwife and am so grateful to live in Ontario and have that option. (I'm from the US, so wouldn't at all if I hadn't moved here.) I'm very much still debating home vs. hospital birth--my mom is also a nurse, and like the poster above against it, and partly I don't want to subject myself to 7 months of hysterical nagging, and partly I can't help but think what if...as Zolf pointed out there are very few true emergencies in birth but there are some. (Like a prolapsed umbilical cord or the placenta separating early, I believe.) On the other hand, home birth appeals to me for all the reasons Zolf outlined in that amazing post. At any rate, I look forward to hearing all your thoughts on this--if anyone has any other stories, please do share.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ilana136
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posted 02 March 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for Ilana136   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry--meant Zoot, not Zolf.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 02 March 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*tries to shake off image of Larry Zolf as a mid-wife*
From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 02 March 2004 07:04 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Welcome to Babble Ilana! And to Canada.

Congrats on your one on the way!


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ilana136
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posted 05 March 2004 09:56 AM      Profile for Ilana136   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks Trinitty. Does anyone know about specific studies that document the safety of home birth versus hospital birth? I keep reading that studies have been done and that it is as safe, but haven't gotten my hands on an actual study. Thanks--
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 05 March 2004 10:28 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
U.S. Stats:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/GuidetoCompleteFacilityWks.pdf

Mothering Magazine articles with all of the studies noted, you can then look them up at a library:

http://www.mothering.com/11-0-0/html/11-6-0/homebirth-under-fire.shtml

http://www.mothering.com/11-0-0/html/11-6-0/11-6-0.shtml

Studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=9721790&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=9271961&dopt=Abstract

World Health Organization:

http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/

http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/whoplace.html

Lots of Links:

http://www.gentlebirth.org/ronnie/homesafe.html


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 05 March 2004 10:34 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Most of the studies I'm aware of are British, but I believe you can google "homebirth safety" and find what you're looking for.

The stats of homebirth safety aren't surprising, since homebirths are more or less restricted to healthy, low-risk pregnancies (that is, most pregnancies). In these pregnancies, medical intervention is not only unnecessary, but may in some cases cause complications that might not otherwise arise.

In a low-risk pregnancy, if things don't go well at home, there's generally lots of warning and lots of time to get you to a hospital. If it's your first child, and the pain takes you by surprise, there's also plenty of time to get you to a hospital and hooked up an epidural.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 05 March 2004 10:47 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
These urges are driving me crazy. But, isn't Mothering Magazine neat?
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 March 2004 10:52 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't that the magazine that encourages parents not to immunize their kids?

Yeah, just lovely.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 05 March 2004 10:52 AM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rebecca West:

If it's your first child, and the pain takes you by surprise...

When our first was born, Mme Cromwell's first reaction to the onset of labour was "That can't be a contraction - it hurts too much!"


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 05 March 2004 11:06 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It does? I just found it a little while ago. I don't think THAT is neat at all. I thought the organic cloth diaper and doula offers were neat.
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 March 2004 11:09 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Check out their message board forums. There's a whole forum on vaccinations, and the obvious slant is against vaccinating, because there are horror stories about this reaction or that one to different vaccinations.

Vaccinations forum


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 05 March 2004 11:16 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Remember when surviving childhood was an iffy proposition? When your kids often died of things like polio, whooping cough, smallpox, rubella, etc. before they were out of diapers?

Yes, let's abandon vaccinations. Idiots.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 05 March 2004 11:19 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's a little disturbing.

I won't have my children vaccinated with the thermosine, or, whatever that mercury preservative is, but, they'll be getting all of the vaccinations I had as a child.

There have been cases of measles coming back in the UK due to lack of vaccination.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 05 March 2004 11:23 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Remember when surviving childhood was an iffy proposition? When your kids often died of things like polio, whooping cough, smallpox, rubella, etc. before they were out of diapers?

Yes, let's abandon vaccinations. Idiots.


I'm inclined to agree with you. But these sorts of folks sometimes do make a serious claim: that it wasn't actually vaccinations that was responsible for the drop in mortality due to many of these diseases. I'm not convinced, but it is an arguable claim.

From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 05 March 2004 11:30 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I need to get vaccinated for Chicken Pox. I didn't get chicken pox as a child, my mom TRIED to give it to us, but, it obviously didn't work since my adult sister got it. I worry about birth defects if I contract it while pregnant, so, I'm looking into the vaccination. I'm not really comfortable with it though.

I probably won't have my children vaccinated for it.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 05 March 2004 11:32 AM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i had an interesting experience on the mothering forum.

as you all know, i'm diabetic, and i made it my busines to know the risks of a diabetic pregnancy beforehand, so I was very well versed in the science and research of the effects of elevated blood sugars on pregnancy and fetal development. (it's not good--possibly neural tube defects in early pregnancy, greatly increased risk of miscarriage and stillbirth, greatly incrased risk of birth defects, babies born over 10 lbs, greater risk of developing type ii diabetes and being obese, etc.). I was told by a woman who proclaimed herself a health practitioner that these risks could only be for women with pre-established diabetes because "everybody knows" that higher sugar levels are good for developing babies, and thus gestational diabetes is a sham and conspiracy of the medical establishment.

i found 20 years of research and studies for her demonstrating the risks of elevated sugars, and that for teh vast majority of pregnant women blood sugar levels decrease progressively throughout pregnancy (thus elevated sugar levels really are abnormal, not a normal pregnant state), and she just dismissed the whole thing becuase "everybody knows" that high blood sugars are good for babies. And then accused me of attacking her personally because I didn't agree with her, and refused to discuss it any further.

Drove me nuts. I haven't been back. I wish I could say this was an isolated incidence, but I've seen it happen to any person there who utters a word against the party line--AP for everyone, cloth diapers for everyone, no vaccinations (they're neurotoxins you know!), no medical interventions for anyone, and GD is a sham and conspiracy ... The quality of evidence chosen by the majority of members on the forums is poor, and largely consists of "evidence that backs our pre-determined positions."


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 05 March 2004 11:44 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The mercury preservatives in vaccinations DO concern me though, and mercury IS a neurotoxin. But, you can get the shots without it, so, I think it's best to go that route than to allow deadly diseases to come back.
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 05 March 2004 11:48 AM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They haven't had thimerosol in vaccines in CAnada in years.
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 05 March 2004 11:53 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's in some of the flu vaccines, IIRC.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 05 March 2004 11:54 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good to know!
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 05 March 2004 11:57 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had one of these flu vaccines, btw, but there is little risk on my part of developing autism (what thimerosal is most famously blamed for). I always read the monograph of anything they inject me with.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ilana136
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posted 08 March 2004 03:08 PM      Profile for Ilana136   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Trinitty--a belated thanks for all those links. I went and did some library searches for studies and did find excellent ones. As for vaccinations--wasn't there a recent news release that the British Journal The Lancet that originally published the vaccination-autism link theory has renounced that study and now claims there's no link? Yesterday I heard from an otherwise sane mother that it's egg-whites that are to blame for autism. If only it was that easy...
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 08 March 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mandos, the study that linked vaccines to autism was bunk! 10 of the 13 authors of that study have signed a statement saying their data was insufficient to justify their conclusions (they had only looked at 13 children!). Since that 1998 study all other studies on the topic have not showed any link between the two.Click!

[ 08 March 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 08 March 2004 09:39 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, that was in the Lancet a couple of days ago.

Has anyone ever had a water birth?

How much do your breasts change?


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 March 2004 10:25 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Trinitty:
How much do your breasts change?

You mean in the water?

Even if your breasts don't become bigger during pregnancy (mine didn't get too much bigger, but then, they're big enough as they are!) the nipples will sometimes turn darker, and some women get these odd-looking, harmless little "nodes" on the nipples. They go away eventually. I sure did find it strange though. It was like, geez, whose boobs ARE these, anyhow!?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 08 March 2004 10:34 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lol. I guess I should have worded that better.

Nodes eh? Do your breasts go back to the way they were prior to pregnancy?

I've got small breasts, so, I imagine they'd change quite a bit, but, I'm just guessing.

For those who did, how does breastfeeding change them?


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 March 2004 10:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The nodes are tiny. It's not like they're big honking ugly things or anything. Kind of like dark freckles that are a bit raised. It was actually kind of neat to watch the changes.

And yeah, your breasts will go back to normal. But I don't know how breastfeeding affects breasts since I only did that for a week and a half.

[ 08 March 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 09 March 2004 10:59 AM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
my breasts really didn't change at all. they're still the same size as they were pre-pg. and what i've heard is that it's the pg-hormones that will cause the ligaments to sag, if they're going to, so whether or not you b/f will have relatively little impact. mine seem pretty much the same to me, and we're at 11 weeks milk factory here.

ilana, what i love is hearing that it's vaccines that cause type 1 diabetes. ah, so that's why i got it ... 17 years after the shots. right. and those greeks and romans must have been pretty advanced to have vaccines away back then.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
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posted 09 March 2004 11:33 AM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I talked to a girlfriend last night who had a baby at 19. (He just had his 4th birthday.)

She was talking about saving up for a boob job, cuz her "girls" have changed a whole lot. She's still in the research and money-saving stage, so she hasn't yet figured out if it's worth it to do it before she has more kids, or if she should wait until she's sure she won't have another baby...I think she's pretty serious about it, though.


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ilana136
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posted 09 March 2004 06:34 PM      Profile for Ilana136   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh--breasts. One of my favorite topics. I was hoping mine wouldn't grow as I liked them as they were, but they have, and I swear I now have the monumental and stiffly imposing rack of a an old-school mustached headmistress. I'm ready to start carrying a ruler everywhere I go and smearing all my clothing with chalk.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 09 March 2004 07:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, come on, Ilana, I'm sure they are cuddly. And as for moustaches, as we say in Italian, "la donna pelosa, la donna più gustosa".
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 09 March 2004 07:26 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does that mean that Nancy Pelosi actually means Nancy Hairy?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
clever nickname
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posted 09 March 2004 08:00 PM      Profile for clever nickname     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have gone through the entire forum without figuring it out, so I'm going to have to just look like a moron and ask--what's the difference between a doula and a midwife?

Even though I don't plan on having kids anytime soon, this forum is very interesting. It's great to hear about everyone's experiences.


From: London ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 March 2004 09:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not positive about this, but I think a midwife has medical training and is the person who delivers the baby, whereas a doula is someone who is sort of like a very knowledgable layperson who will be the pregnant woman's advocate throughout her pregnancy, labour, and aftercare, but does not actually deliver the baby.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 10 March 2004 02:05 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ding! What prize do you want Michelle?
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ilana136
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posted 10 March 2004 05:43 PM      Profile for Ilana136   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yup. In Canada midwives must earn a 4-7 year Bachelors in Health Science, which prepares them to handle pre-natal care, labour and delivery, and post-partum visits up to 6 weeks for women with low-risk pregnancies. (ITraining for duolos vary but uselly it's an intensive seminar-type course, with the goal of supporting and advocating for the mother during labour (many duolas also do pre-natal and post-natal support) while a midwife or obstetrician handles the baby-side action.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 10 March 2004 07:52 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've known a couple of mothers and fathers who chose not to vaccinate their child. INSANE! The only hope the child has is that everyone ELSE will vaccinate their children.

There are still a few (about 10 in BC anyway) cases of polio every year. More so for many of the other diseases.

Vaccines harm a very small proportion of people, and save the overwhelming majority of people from awful disease. Not vaccinating puts you into a high risk of disease camp.

To be honest, all the people that I knew who chose not to vaccinate were of the 'I heard once and so it must be true' level of scientific understanding.

As in, 'My granpappy smoked every day for 100 years and it didn't kill him, so smoking is not harmful'.

Nonsense.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 20 March 2004 03:01 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ARborman, that's been my experience too.

Anyway, I thought I'd see if I could revive this discussion by asking if anyone here has read "Maternal Desire"? It just came out in hardcover; I'm only a few chapters into it but so far very interesting. The author is exploring the idea that motherhood is not innately self-sacrificing; that it can be a valid form of self-expression and self-gratification. Which looks so obvious when it's written down, but so often teh argument is about waht the children need and get out of it, and what society wants women to do as mothers, that very often why women want to be mothers and what they want to get out of it are left out of the discussion.

So far it's great, IMO.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mush
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posted 22 March 2004 09:06 PM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by clever nickname:
[QB]what's the difference between a doula and a midwife?
QB]

For what it's worth, a good friend is in town and statying with us next week to attend some training on the way to becoming a doula. I hadn't heard of a doula until she told me of her plans, so I am sure she will fill me in on the details of the training- sounds very interesting.


From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
dances with swords
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posted 23 March 2004 05:58 PM      Profile for dances with swords     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am fascinated with feminist theory surrounding embodiment and pregnancy.

Here are two of my favourite books that address pregnancy and childbirth:

The Woman in the Body, by Emily Martin

and

Blessed Events: Religion and Home Birth in North America, by Pamela Klassen (of the U of T! hurrah!)

I would love to have a home birth when the time comes, and my med-student friends look at me like I have two heads. Even the hippy-leaning one.

My aunt was very pro-meidcal-establishment and had a doula. She had a wonderful experience (except for the 90-hour labour part.) But the doula was great!


From: toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 23 March 2004 07:51 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
dances with swords welcome to babble.

Thanks for those references, they look very interesting. I'll borrow them from the library tomorrow.


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wolseleygirl
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posted 04 April 2004 02:11 PM      Profile for Wolseleygirl        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just to clarify a few areas...
The "nodes" you get on your breasts as you get closer to birth of babe are called Montgomery tubeles (don't know why) a they actually secrete a hormonal fluid onto the surface of the areola that lubricates the area, contains antibodies and smells like amniotic fluid so that your breasts smell familiar and welcoming to babe at birth. The amount of fluid is unnoticeble to most women, but plays an important role in the "dance" our bodies do at the birth of a baby.

Doulas role at birth is to support the mom - midwives role is to support the birth of the baby. There are lay as well as licenced midwives, the same exists for doulas. There are a variety of different training programs - usually 2-3 days in length and different organizations (i.e. Doulas of North America, CAPPA) have certification processes where certain criteria must be met - you can check out the websites for both organizations. Not all doulas are certified though. Doulas do not replace a partner or friend, but compliment and increase the amount of support available to a mom who wants to actively participate in her birthing experience. And I think that's how feminism and motherhood come together for me - regardless of your choice around pain medications, etc., it's that you take an active role in making informed decisions about your choice of caregiver, place of birth, preferred interventions, breastfeeding, etc. Birthing doesn't always take the direction we prefer, but by learning about your options during pregnancy, and having a trusting relationship with your caregiver, you will have a better understanding of how our body's work to birth babies and why decisions are made.


From: Winnipeg, MB | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 06 April 2004 08:37 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I've got small breasts, so, I imagine they'd change quite a bit, but, I'm just guessing.

For those who did, how does breastfeeding change them?


I have fairly small breasts, too. They went up 2 to 3 cups sizes while nursing, gradually decreased as nursing did, then down one size smaller than I started with after nursing.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 06 April 2004 10:59 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wolseleygirl:
The "nodes" you get on your breasts as you get closer to birth of babe are called Montgomery tubeles (don't know why)...

If the pattern holds, they are probably named after the male scientest who "discovered" them (kind of like Columbus discovering America, eh?).


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
shaolin
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posted 22 April 2004 05:41 AM      Profile for shaolin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Caesarean births reach all time high in Canada:

Toronto Star


From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 22 April 2004 01:15 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I heard. Just sickening. Unnecessary surgeries should be prosecuted somehow.

Given the choice between an FP and an OB, I'd go with the FP. A little less knife-happy...


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
dee
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posted 22 April 2004 01:26 PM      Profile for dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree. I saw something on the news about this last night where they said that more people wanted to have c-sections because there are more Hollywood (and other) stars publicly choosing to have them. A lifestyles of the rich and famous type of thing.

It gives me the image of women going to the hospital to have their baby removed much like they would go to the doctor to have a wart removed.


From: pleasant, unemotional conversation aids digestion | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 22 April 2004 01:33 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just don't understand the attraction to a c-section. It's major abdominal surgery. It leaves scars. You have all kinds of pain in recovery. Risks of infection and other serious complications. It's madness to choose this!

On the purely cosmetic side, it's much easier to get rid of a couple of stretch marks than a c-section scar plus stretch marks.

Trading the short-term discomfort of contractions (which you might have anyway in the case of a c-section) for 2 months of recovery from surgery is so not logical...

I think I'll stick to the DIY approach when it comes to having babies.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 22 April 2004 01:39 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zoot Capri:
I just don't understand the attraction to a c-section. It's major abdominal surgery. It leaves scars. You have all kinds of pain in recovery.

I believe peristalsis (the muscle contractions needed to move food through the bowel) ceases in response to the invasive nature of the surgery. Most of the time, it starts back up on its own, but sometimes it doesn't.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 22 April 2004 01:49 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, pax, you've just added a whole other level to my creeped-out-ness at the idea...


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 22 April 2004 01:52 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*bows*
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 22 April 2004 01:55 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So it's kind of like one of those laser printers that say "Please close front panel" before allowing anything to print, but sometimes still have "Paper Jam" even when you close it?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 22 April 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
More than 42 per cent of new mothers were older than 30 in 2001-2002, as opposed to 34 per cent 10 years earlier. And the rise in age is pushing the high-risk pregnancy rate to 10 per cent, says a report from the Canadian Institute for Health Information released yesterday.

This bit also burns my butt.

If you are under 35, you are not necessarily considered at any higher risk than under 35. And there is also a tendency to arbitrarily label a pregnancy high-risk with age as the only factor -- which, depending on the fitness level and general health of the woman, may not be appropriate.

Doctors skew these things -- especially the OBs. One must remember that an OB isn't just a doctor, they're SURGEONS. Surgeons like to cut. It's what they're trained to do.

I'd say the more likely reason for the rise is that fewer FPs are catching babies these days.

Edited to add: Mandos, you are awful!

[ 22 April 2004: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
brian brian
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posted 23 April 2004 06:00 PM      Profile for brian brian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ontario Home Learners

Water Births (U.S. site)


From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
steffie
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posted 23 April 2004 10:46 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zoot Capri:

One must remember that an OB isn't just a doctor, they're SURGEONS. Surgeons like to cut. It's what they're trained to do.


Reminds me of my own experience giving birth to my 8 lb. 12.5 oz. boy in '92... the doc was getting ready to cut me, but the nurse stepped in and said, "no, she's fine...." And so I delivered with nary a stitch. (I wonder how much money he woulda made from that one tiny slice? A Lexus payment?)

Of course this was relayed to me by the proud papa, who was at the front (?) lines at the time; I was a little occupied and could not hear the banter 'down below'...

All I have to say is, Bless the Nurses! Because they did all the work: caring for me, listening to me, braided my hair, turned the spotlight out(as per my request) as my son emerged.. etc. The doc only came in briefly to "catch and cut".

Nurses rule.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 26 April 2004 08:01 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm really looking forward to having babies.

I've been facsinated with birth for as long as I can remember. They'll probably arrive in the next couple of years.... we're not trying yet, since DH is starting PhD studies in September.... but, boy, that clock is POUNDING. I've always wanted a baby before thirty, so, I think it will happen.

I'm already planning on having a homebirth with a midwife. I'm going to make lots of food leading up to the birth and freeze the meals, that way we won't have to worry about cooking big meals with baby... and I want it to be just us three for the first two weeks, then the familie(s) can come and visit.

I know I've said this a million times, but, the American Way of Birth is a really great read for anyone interested in the topic.

Don't know about the cosleeping thing. We'll decide when the time comes.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 29 April 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is sooooo true.
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged

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