[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

Did you make the same argument about Apartheid South Africa, that because there are so many other countries with human rights violations that no action should be attempted with SA until every other country had sanctions against it?

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Originally posted by ohara:
What is incredibly dumb is the concept of sanctions against Israel. I await a call for sanctions where ten of thousands ae being murdered, starved to death, imprisoned or brutalized. Where are calls for sanctions against Sudan, China, Ivory Coast, ??? No lets start with israel always Israel

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Are you even remotely proud of the nations which you concede are Israel's civil rights peers?

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Actually, a lot of people I know are adverse to buying goods made in China and other notorious sweatshop zone countries, because of how they're made. And that has to do with the whole political structure of the country, which allows their people to be used as slave labour by corporations or by the state.

Did you make the same argument about Apartheid South Africa, that because there are so many other countries with human rights violations that no action should be attempted with SA until every other country had sanctions against it?

Did you argue against Iraqi sanctions? Vocally, publicly? Or is it only when someone proposes sanctions against Israel that you are opposed?

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You and others have to ask yourself why this preoccupation with the Jewish state. You may not like the answers you finally come up with.

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The Case for Boycotting Israel

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It is finally time. After years of internal arguments, confusion, and dithering, the time has come for a full-fledged international boycott of Israel.

Good cause for a boycott has, of course, been in place for decades, as a raft of initiatives already attests. But Israel's war crimes are now so shocking, its extremism so clear, the suffering so great, the UN so helpless, and the international community's need to contain Israel's behavior so urgent and compelling, that the time for global action has matured.

A coordinated movement of divestment, sanctions, and boycotts against Israel must convene to contain not only Israel's aggressive acts and crimes against humanitarian law but also, as in South Africa, its founding racist logics that inspired and still drive the entire Palestinian problem.

That second goal of the boycott campaign is indeed the primary one. Calls for a boycott have long cited specific crimes: Israel's continual attacks on Palestinian civilians; its casual disdain for the Palestinian civilian lives "accidentally" destroyed in its assassinations and bombings; its deliberate ruin of the Palestinians' economic and social conditions; its continuing annexation and dismemberment of Palestinian land; its torture of prisoners; its contempt for UN resolutions and international law; and especially, its refusal to allow Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland. But the boycott cannot target these practices alone. It must target their ideological source.

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Originally posted by ohara:
You may not like the answers you finally come up with.

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That evil done by our allies and peers--by us in a way--is 'our problem' in a way that evil done by others isn't.

What's risible about that?

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Originally posted by ohara:
What is incredibly dumb is the concept of sanctions against Israel. I await a call for sanctions where ten of thousands ae being murdered, starved to death, imprisoned or brutalized. Where are calls for sanctions against Sudan, China, Ivory Coast, ??? No lets start with israel always Israel

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Originally posted by Ward:
Lets start with these guys!

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Here is a link to another Babble thread. George Galloway debunking the myths that the biased media -and yourself- are peddling.

http://tinyurl.com/fh8h4

For a direct link to the video, here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKv-b7HS08k

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
The moment people start quoting a lunatic fringe crackpot like George galloway, you know its time to quiestly tip toe away.

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See ya.

If he's such a crackpot, I'm sure you'll have no trouble demonstrating the lunacy of his arguments.

However, I'm not holding my breath.

All the nasty names he gets called are a function (i) of his willingness to slaughter sacred cows, and (2) of the inability of his opponants to address the substance of his arguments, because they tackle issues that the mainstream is determinedly ignoring.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Yes yes and of course if George Gallaway says it then it must be true.

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You can't refute it either, I guess.

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It's truth or falsity is a quality independent of his name.

Cuz that's the thing about Galloway--he rarely argues from authority, and if he did the world would ignore him.

He argues from facts, which he then cites. There's no other way he could get away with saying the things he does.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Yes yes and of course if George Gallaway says it then it must be true.

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"Its Hezbollah stupid"..that's just the point..Israel leaves Lebanon 6 years ago..terrorists invade kill Israelis and kidnap others and hey guess what Israel is at fault...the only Jewish state in the world and the only state treated with such contempt... There is a moral vacuum here and it has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with people like some here who would support Hezbollah and other terrorists whose only aim is to wipe Israel off the map. And Israel the only Jewish state is not permitted to protect its citizens. Citizens who are Muslim, Christian Jewish ...

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So many lies, all packed together so nice and tight (although barely coherent)....

Kurt Nimmo finds some truth about Israel's complete and utter innocence on the Lebanese border.

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In order to understand the magnitude of the above mentioned brazen (and studiously ignored) crimes against Lebanese sovereignty, simply visit the United Nations Bibliographic Information System database. The following links point to PDF documents of the letters filed with the United Nations: January 4, 2006, February 3, 2006, February 6, 2006, March 3, 2006, April 4, 2006, May 4, 2006, May 30, 2006, and June 5, 2006. In the six month period documented by the letters, Israel violated Lebanese sovereignty 529 times.

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My bold.

1) Israel's international projection of it's terrorist/assassination policies (how many people outside of the middle east has Israel assassinated?). Israel seeks revenge, extraterritorially, and violates other sovereign nation's territory to do it's will, which is an ACT OF WAR under International Law.

2) Israel's chief benefactor, AMERICA, does EVERYTHING IN ITS POWER to PREVENT Israel being held to account in the same way Iraq was FOR INVADING ITS' NEIGHBORS.

3) 69 odd pending U.N. Resolutions against Israel against one Resolution requiring Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah (Israel claims that it is taking action to enforce this U.N. Resolution because Lebanon won't... what a CROCK OF MERDE).

4) Israel's intentional ignoring of 4th Geneva Convention prohibitions against PURPOSELY attacking CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE and CIVILIAN HABITATED AREAS.

5) Israel is the ONLY nation ON EARTH that CLAIMS LAND BASED ON THE SUPPOSED DEEDING OF SAID LAND BY SOME FREAKING SKY FAIRY.

6) Israel STILL hasn't been held to account for the MANY massacres it (or its' allies like the Christian Phalange) has committed since its invasion of Lebanon in 1982 (and since it's creation for that matter).

7) ALL Charitably raised donations, earmarked for the "support of Israel's current invasion" should be SEIZED (as Israel is, arguably committing WAR CRIMES), in the same vein as "terrorist organization's" assets have been. This money is earmarked to support an ILLEGAL INVASION of Lebanon, clearly ILLEGAL under INTERNATIONAL LAW.

8) Waging "AGGRESSIVE WAR" is ILLEGAL under international law. Attacking a neighbor FIRST, using disproportionate force, is a WAR CRIME. Civilian casualties are TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS. Israel TARGETS RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS on PURPOSE, claiming terrorists operate there as a justification for SLAUGHTERING INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

9) ALL international money transfers to and from Israel, MUST BE STOPPED. Israeli goods should be SEIZED as "war reparations" for Lebanon and SOLD for Lebanon's rebuilding. Israeli financial assets should undergo a similar fate. Iraq is suffering this fate, after the fall of Sadam. Iraqi assets are being controlled by America and being "raped" in the name of "rebuilding" and "reparations" (mostly to Kuwait, by all reports).

10) ALL export of heavy equipment and manufacturing machinery MUST be STOPPED. Much imported heavy machinery, especially earth movers and such, are used ILLEGALLY to destroy CIVILIAN HOMES in the ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED TERRITORIES. This too, is ILLEGAL under the 4th Geneva Convention.

11) Until foreign aid is distributed, within Israel, EQUALLY to ALL Israelis (jew and NON JEW), foreign aid (financial and otherwise) MUST CEASE. Non-Jewish services, as compared to services provided to Jews within Israel, are WHOEFULLY underfunded, even though non-Jewish Israeli citizens are TAXED equally for those services. This is reminiscient of the Pre-Civil Rights era American South or Apartheid South Africa.

Yes, Israel is the "perfect" country and is always being UNJUSTLY picked on, right? WRONG!

Russia (for Chechnya)
China (for Tibet)
India (for Kashmir)
Iran (for being Iran)
Mexico (for the election fraud)
Cuba (for being a dictatorship)
Turkey (for oppressing the Kurds)
every country in Africa (for being non-democratic)
The US (for Iraq)

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Let's have sanctions against:

Russia (for Chechnya)
China (for Tibet)
India (for Kashmir)
Iran (for being Iran)
Mexico (for the election fraud)
Cuba (for being a dictatorship) ALREADY IN PLACE
Turkey (for oppressing the Kurds)
every country in Africa (for being non-democratic)
The US (for Iraq)

and many, many more...

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The moment people start quoting a lunatic fringe crackpot like George galloway, you know its time to quiestly tip toe away -Stockholm

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Stockholm,

So allergic to facts you have tip toed away ?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Let's also not forget that almost all Arab countries expelled their entire Jewish populations in the late 40s and early 50s and stole all their possessions. i figure that with interest, countries like Syria and Iran and Iraq and Morrocco etc... each owe the expelled Jews about a billion dollars and since Israel was forced to resettle all those people, the money shoudl all go to Israel.

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And the compensation owed to Arabs for the land Israel has illegally stolen too. The example you cite, arguably, could be said to be in direct response to Israel's actions in expelling and massacring Arabs.

Defending the indefensible is never good, from any side.

Why is it that Jews are always the FIRST in line for compensation and the FIRST supported by most?

Why is it that our own First Nations people, who seek compensation for land/assets illegally stolen from them over the PAST 300 YEARS OR SO NEVER get the support of folks like you?

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Originally posted by ohara:

Nice try at turning around the argument but it wont wash. You and others have to ask yourself why this preoccupation with the Jewish state. You may not like the answers you finally come up with.

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Why is it that Jews are always the FIRST in line for compensation and the FIRST supported by most?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I dunno. I guess it must be because they are too obsessed with money and have too much power and all have hooked noses and nasal voices and use lots of Yiddish expressions....(sic.)

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Now THAT is uncalled for. I asked a simple question with respect to compensation and all I get is rubbish in response.

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Now THAT is uncalled for. I asked a simple question with respect to compensation and all I get is rubbish in response.

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Yes, viking. The problem is that you referred to Jews in general, not specific Jewish organizations. If you had said

Why is B'nai B'rith always the first in line for compensation, or evaen asked the question, why are Canadian holocaust survivers and their decendents more likely to get sympathy from the Canadian government then other genocide survivors,
you might have been able to avoid accusations of anti-Semitism but as it is I think they stand.
Not that I'm supporting the Ziofachist assholes who are trying to excuse Israel's atrocities in this thread, but I don't think I can let that pass.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: CMOT
Dibbler ]

edited to add a thought I just had.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

US investment is keeping the Israel stock exchange looking surprisingly bright through the war as well.

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Iran (for being Iran)

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
...and since Israel was forced to resettle all those people, the money shoudl all go to Israel.

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Ok. So nazi-era reparations should go to the governments who resettled jewish (and other) displaced persons after the war, and not to the heirs of the original jewish property-holders.

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Originally posted by cdnviking:

Why is it that Jews are always the FIRST in line for compensation and the FIRST supported by most?

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Letting your anti-semitism finaly break though?

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

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Originally posted by sidra:
Ohara,

Here is a link to another Babble thread. George Galloway debunking the myths that the biased media -and yourself- are peddling.

http://tinyurl.com/fh8h4

For a direct link to the video, here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKv-b7HS08k

First, the history of the conflict does not start from six weeks ago and second, Israel did not fully puul out of Lebanon in the year 2000.

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Terrible interview. But I suppose it's impossible to get decent debates on network new shows. Sound bytes suck. Galloway approached the issue the same way a Ziofachist family friend once approached the Israeli Palestinian conflict the first time we had a major discussion (argument) about the Palestinians. This friend of ours yelled at me, he wagged his finger in my face, he almost made me cry. Gallaway uses similar tactics in the interview, As though he beleived that by shouting at the news caster it would automatically make him right. He is correct of course, Isreal needs to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinian prisoners need to be returned etc. I just wish he'd made his points with more decorum.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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ALL international money transfers to and from Israel, MUST BE STOPPED. Israeli goods should be SEIZED as "war reparations" for Lebanon and SOLD for Lebanon's rebuilding. Israeli financial assets should undergo a similar fate. Iraq is suffering this fate, after the fall of Sadam. Iraqi assets are being controlled by America and being "raped" in the name of "rebuilding" and "reparations" (mostly to Kuwait, by all reports).

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Dude! That really would cause the Isreali state to collapse ala Iraq I want sanctions placed on Isreal, it has done some terrible things in its 58 year history, but it is also important to remember that Isreal is not and never has been economically viable. Removing ALL international support from the place would cause the Isreali welfare state to disolve like candy floss on a hot day and seriously harm every Isreali citizen, icluding the elderly and those with physical and mental challenges.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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Originally posted by Briguy:

Preserved for posterity. I thought this particular smear was against Babble policy?

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Why is it that Jews are always the FIRST in line for compensation and the FIRST supported by most?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Actually, I don't even know if the CJC has ever even asked that Arab countries pay compensation to all the Jews they stole from and expelled in the late 40s and early 50s. I do know that the CJC was very much in favour of compensating the Japanese who were interned during WW2 and I believe they were very much in favour of compasating the Chinese over the head tax. They also supported equal marriage (much to the chagrin of a few orthodox religious freaks)

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Originally posted by Bobolink:

Letting your anti-semitism finaly break though?

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Bobolink ]

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What would you say if I said that very good JEWISH friends of mine were the ONES THAT POINTED OUT THIS OBSERVATION TO ME and JUSTIFIED THEIR ARGUMENT WITH EXAMPLES? Anti-zionist jewish friends I might add.

Anti-semite? Me? Not likely! Anti-christian... oh ya!

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: cdnviking ]

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Originally posted by cdnviking:
Why is it that Jews are always the FIRST in line for compensation and the FIRST supported by most?

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What the hell? Did you take a wrong turn on your way to the white supremacy site?

The Toronto District of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation has rejected a motion calling on the union to condemn Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

Two Ontario high school teachers introduced the motion.

The Toronto teachers were calling on the union to develop classroom materials on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and to support an international boycott of Israel.

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Dude! That really would cause the Isreali state to collapse ala Iraq I want sanctions placed on Isreal, it has done some terrible things in its 58 year history, but it is also important to remember that Isreal is not and never has been economically viable. Removing ALL international support from the place would cause the Isreali welfare state to disolve like candy floss on a hot day and seriously harm every Isreali citizen, icluding the elderly and those with physical and mental challenges.

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Sorry.

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It's real easy to do with other people's land and resources. Just ask the Canadians, Americans, Australians, or, hey, the South Africans.

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Tautological argument.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Union Rejects 'Anti Israel' Motion

The Toronto District of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation has rejected a motion calling on the union to condemn Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

Two Ontario high school teachers introduced the motion.

The Toronto teachers were calling on the union to develop classroom materials on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and to support an international boycott of Israel.

The motion was similar to one passed by the Ontario branch of the Canadian Union of Public Employees last spring.

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Originally posted by Petsy:

This speaks to what I have always held as true, the eminent good sense of the rank and file. Clearly such motions as presented by the 2 individuals are seen as counter-productive and were rejected.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Like CUPE's sensible rank and file, you mean?

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Well the CUPE resolution went from being unanimous, to having overwhelming support. To being a couple of people in an empty room putting their hands up.

It is interesting to note that CUPE local 79 the largest local rejected resolution 50 and that the union local president wrote a letter to Paul Moist and Sid Ryan explaining her disgust with the entire resolution and process.

The following is a letter posted on the CUPE 79 Website.

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June 20, 2006

Mr. Paul Moist
National President
Canadian Union of Public Employees
21 Florence Street
Ottawa, Ontario
K2P 0W6

Mr. Sid Ryan, President
CUPE Ontario
305 Milner Avenue, Suite 801
Scarborough, Ontario
M1B 3V4

Dear Brother Moist and Brother Ryan:

This letter is about Resolution 50, adopted at the last month’s CUPE Ontario convention.

I am writing in the name of Local 79 which is CUPE Ontario’s largest affiliated local (and CUPE National’s largest chartered local), and represents approximately 18,000 members.

Local 79 believes that provincial divisions of CUPE have a right to express themselves about international issues.

In doing so, however, divisions need to be careful to ensure that the views they express on international issues:

• Do not overshadow CUPE activities which are more immediately relevant to the members in the workplace, such as collective bargaining, and in the community, such as protecting public-sector services and jobs. Those activities reflect the union’s legal mandate and are the principal source of the union’s credibility in the eyes of the members and the public.

• Do not enflame tensions, or cause avoidable division among the members of CUPE’s chartered organizations.

• Do not discredit CUPE’s reputation in the eyes of the members or the public.

• Are not at variance with CUPE National policy.

• Do not fail the test of even-handedness and fairness – a proud tradition within CUPE and within Canada itself, which expresses our deep desire as Canadians to assist peoples in conflict to find peaceful solutions.

All of the problems which divisions need to be careful to avoid have arisen in relation to Resolution 50. As a result, much damage has been done to CUPE’s reputation in the eyes of the members and the public, and CUPE Ontario finds itself in an unprecedented crisis.

Local 79 is deeply concerned about this and believes that the crisis urgently needs to be dealt with and resolved.

To that end, Local 79 believes that:

• CUPE Ontario needs to take responsibility for dealing with and resolving
the crisis.

• As part of this, CUPE Ontario needs, at the very least, to seriously reconsider
the appropriateness of carrying out the actions contemplated by Resolution 50.

Local 79 also calls upon CUPE National to provide all necessary assistance and support.

Yours in solidarity,

Ann Dembinski
President

cope343/la

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CUPE 79

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Originally posted by johnpauljones:

Well the CUPE resolution went from being unanimous, to having overwhelming support. To being a couple of people in an empty room putting their hands up.

It is interesting to note that CUPE local 79 the largest local rejected resolution 50 and that the union local president wrote a letter to Paul Moist and Sid Ryan explaining her disgust with the entire resolution and process.

The following is a letter posted on the CUPE 79 Website.

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Just a blip on the radar, one way or the other Aprtheid in Israel is finished. Even if a new moition is passed recinding or ammending the original resolution, the real struggle it bringing the issue to the forefront of the debate within labour. Soon enough the truth will out.

That said the real problem is not within the labour movement but in the ranks of Zionist Jews who have put their utopian vision ahead of the pragmatic interests of the lives of Jews in the middle east, sacrificing all principles at the altar of a cherished idealism was precisely the failing that brought the people of the USSR so much grief, and in the end Israel is sure to amend it atrocious and divisive policies, simply because they do not work to safe guard or imporve the lives of Israeli Jews.

Eventually even the most die ard Zionist will be forced to rethink their stand.

[ 19 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

[ 19 January 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

#1 - Isreal does NOT equal Jews. They are not mutually inclusive or exclusive. Jews live outside of Isreal, and non-jews live in Israel. This isn't about religion or race, this is about a COUNTRY with some poor international relationship skills.

#2 - Evil things have been done on all sides, we have to accept that the past has happened, and that looking at most recent events is the only way of solving the immediate crisis, or we're going to be arguing about who's fault it is that that Romans oppressed both Jew and Arab back in the day (You EVIL Italians!)

#3 - Despite the cries of Israel that it's neighbours ignore UN resolutions, Israel has FAR more ignored resolutions under it's belt.

#4 - Dsepite the cries of Israel that it's looking for peace, their actions speak VERY differently.

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Originally posted by johnpauljones:
You are correct Local 79 sent the letter because of the strength of the "lobby"

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I'm sure that the gradual drop in support by CUPE members had nothing to do with the heavy smear campaign against them, right?

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Originally posted by Cueball:
What's this you are saying about a "lobby." What is that about?

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Ah Cueball i have missed the fun with you

ETA you know perfectly well what my sarcasm meant.

But I appreciate you wanting to discuss it more

[ 19 January 2007: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

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Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Something needs to be done about the occupation. It brutalizes the people who live in the West Bank and gaza, gives ammunition to religious fanatics(both Jewish and Muslim) in the territories and causes anti-Semitism to flourish in the Arab world in general. Many have suggested that Israel should have sanctions placed upon it, my question is have sanctions ever been placed on a democracy (or rather quuasi democracy) such as Israel? By imposing sanctions on Israel are we not interfering with the will of Israel's Jewish majority and trampling on the principles which many leftists claim to champion? As far as I am concerned the Israeli government deserves to have sanctions imposed on it, but how do we do that without interfering in Israel's Democratic process.

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Originally posted by Petsy:

This speaks to what I have always held as true, the eminent good sense of the rank and file.

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The rank and file also used to think that hating Jews and that blacks were inferior and that woman aren't intellegent was just "eminent good sense". Then people came along that thought differently. Truth is often inconvenient, and anything but popular.

[ 20 January 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by ohara:
Michelle , JPJ did not have to put the words in your mouth. They were already there. He merely acted as translator if you will.

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Originally posted by Coyote:
For those who oppose the notion of sanctions against Israel - and I will not say I think it is entirely appropriate, I'm just not sure in the current environment - do you suggest the international community do nothing in the face of the ongoing occupation? Or do you have any better suggestions?

Do you think Israel's 40-year occupation of Palestinian land is no big deal?

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Blah, blah, blah....two-state settlement recognising the rights of both peoples to live in peace and security...blah, blah, blah......

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Originally posted by Coyote:
I think Peech and Ohara should be banned from using smilies.

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Blah, blah, blah....two-state settlement recognising the rights of both peoples to live in peace and security...blah, blah, blah......

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[ 20 January 2007: Message edited by: Peech ]

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Originally posted by Peech:

I don't get it?

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Originally posted by Peech:

Yes. (edited to remove smiley...)

[ 20 January 2007: Message edited by: Peech ]

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Originally posted by Peech:
then "it" should be filled.

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Be my guest; it's your platitude, afterall...

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You've repeated that platitude over and over (shall I dredge up the history) and yet never provide any substantive details as to how it should be achieved.

Yet more evidence that you cannot think past your own talking points. Or can you?

[ 22 January 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]