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Author Topic: How can the children of the Holocaust do such things?
unionist
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posted 15 September 2007 06:33 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A Jewish Plea

quote:
We consume the land and the water behind walls and steel gates forcing out all others. What kind of place are we creating? Are we fated to be an intruder in the dust to borrow from Faulkner, whose presence shall evaporate with the shifting sands? Are these the boundaries of our rebirth after the Holocaust?

I have come to accept that Jewish power and sovereignty and Jewish ethics and spiritual integrity are, in the absence of reform, incompatible, unable to coexist or be reconciled. For if speaking out against the wanton murder of children is considered an act of disloyalty and betrayal rather than a legitimate act of dissent, and where dissent is so ineffective and reviled, a choice is ultimately forced upon us between Zionism and Judaism.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 15 September 2007 08:14 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An incredibly powerful article by Sara Roy, thank you forposting it unionist.

quote:
For my mother and father Judaism meant bearing witness, raging against injustice and refusing silence. It meant compassion, tolerance, and rescue. In the absence of these imperatives, they taught me, we cease to be Jews.

Many of the people, both Jewish and others, who write about Palestinians and Arabs fail to accept the fundamental humanity of the people they are writing about, a failing born of ignorance, fear and racism. Within the organized Jewish community especially, it has always been unacceptable to claim that Arabs, Palestinians especially, are like us, that they, too, possess an essential humanity and must be included within our moral boundaries,

...We speak without mercy, numb to the pain of others, incapable of being reached-unconscious. Our words are these:


The words she quotes are equivalent to those, supposedly expressed by the leader of Iran, yet they did not make the news like his did, why?


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 17 September 2007 09:42 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Two things that interested me were her opposition of Power and Strength, and her discussion of how the creation of a self-imposed Ghetto would eventually force Jews even out of Israel.

On the first, she reminded me of Arendt's attempts to clarify the confusion of power/strength/force/authority/violence. Their confusion/conflation was not only a problem of linguistic (im)precision but of great political importance. (http://www.fsmitha.com/review/arendt.html)

On the second point, she actually reminded me of thoughts I've had about the Separation Wall and its spiritual (for lack of a better term) and political consequences. To me, The Wall demonstrates not just a desire of Israelis to keep an Other out, but to keep themselves in. As with gated communities, a palpable fear, anxiety and xenophobia dresses itself up as brave-hearted "control" - designating an imaginary line between order and chaos.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
HUAC
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posted 17 September 2007 10:22 AM      Profile for HUAC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They trot this tear-jerk bullshit out periodically, simply to pacify the hand-wringers for a day or two, while they re-arm and re-fuel. The slaughter of innocents will resume forthwith.

The media, through simple oversight, have failed to bring this item to our attention. I'm certain they will cover it like white on rice, upon conclusion of their "Britney Spears melts down in Vegas" frenzy.

By the way, Britney looked great from my seat. At my age, a well formed pile of rocks has some eye-candy potential.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 17 September 2007 11:48 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sounds like they have imprisoned themselves ..much like how we are heading. So I guess if we want an example of what could be in store for us ..just look there.

Right now it's OJ that's more important in the media...britney has left building.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
HUAC
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posted 17 September 2007 12:36 PM      Profile for HUAC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Buddy Kat:
Sounds like they have imprisoned themselves ..much like how we are heading. So I guess if we want an example of what could be in store for us ..just look there.

Right now it's OJ that's more important in the media...britney has left building.


I know. I'm expecting a knock on the door any minute now.
The OJ thing is manna from heaven to the pisslicks in the media. Expect 24/7 wall to wall coverage on this one, for at least six months, or until "the Juice" gets tagged with a 25 to life rap for unpaid parking tickets. They like to keep Vegas clean, after all.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 September 2007 02:16 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If anyone understands the last three posts, please provide me with an explanation. I'm way too old to appreciate such subtleties.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
HUAC
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posted 17 September 2007 04:37 PM      Profile for HUAC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
If anyone understands the last three posts, please provide me with an explanation. I'm way too old to appreciate such subtleties.

Let me see. Hmmmm----- Got it!!! Voted Mulcair and went out and got loaded! About right? You wanna talk old? I'm way past codger; rapidly approaching curmudgeon and I can't wait. They get away with damn near anything. Gotta go; Britney's here.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 22 September 2007 07:38 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Eloquent post, unionist.

And HUAC if you disagree with unionist here,at least try to be coherent about it. I'm not sure why you seem to feel that what unionist is saying is undeserving of any respect on your part.

[ 22 September 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 23 September 2007 07:55 AM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
A Jewish Plea


If ancient mythology can provide some context, it seems that this is completely justified, according to the script supposedly handed down from the ancient ones. If one is promised something that someone else possesses, the tried and true methods of obtaining it worked before and are working again.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 23 September 2007 08:03 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
For if speaking out against the wanton murder of children is considered an act of disloyalty and betrayal rather than a legitimate act of dissent,

Speaking out against crimes such as this should never be considered a betrayal. Many causes instrumentalize the truth, so that only politically useful truths get articulated, while politically damaging truths get suppressed.

This writer is taking the high road of speaking against those within her own community who want to cut corners when it comes to human rights.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
HUAC
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posted 23 September 2007 08:57 AM      Profile for HUAC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[ 23 September 2007: Message edited by: HUAC ]

[ 23 September 2007: Message edited by: HUAC ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
HUAC
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posted 23 September 2007 10:36 AM      Profile for HUAC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Eloquent post, unionist.

And HUAC if you disagree with unionist here,at least try to be coherent about it. I'm not sure why you seem to feel that what unionist is saying is undeserving of any respect on your part.

[ 22 September 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


Unionists post consists entirely of a link to a left-wing gatekeeper site and a six month old essay, which I consider to be eloquently written. The essay, that is, not the link and most certainly not the post by unionist to the link, in which unionist didn't "say" anything at all.
How in hell can anyone be accused of disagreeing with something that wasn't said, and, by extension, also be accused of disrespect for the particular individual who did't say it?
The concept of "doublethink" could be applicable here, but only to a limited extent, as one facet of the requisite contradictory duality doesn't exist. I'm not sure of which one, however; it's a "chicken or egg" thing.
I will admit and apologize for my response to unionist for my "went out and got loaded" remark, which could be seen as being in poor taste, although it was simply an attempt at humour. Given Mr. Mulcairs' well-deserved victory, a pint or two lifted in celebration (or anticipation) would certainly be understandable, IMO. That is why I made the remark and I am very sorry if it was misconstrued.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 23 September 2007 10:44 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HUAC:
That is why I made the remark and I am very sorry if it was misconstrued.

Apology accepted.

What I found less comprehensible was this remark:

quote:
They trot this tear-jerk bullshit out periodically, simply to pacify the hand-wringers for a day or two, while they re-arm and re-fuel. The slaughter of innocents will resume forthwith.

From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 23 September 2007 04:44 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you weren't disrespecting unionist, HUAC, then I apologize. However, the, well, shall we say inscrutable nature of your posts made it difficult to figure out precisely what you meant.
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 03 October 2007 03:55 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Why the Silence? by Rabbi Arthur Waskow

quote:
At the Great March for Jobs and Freedom in 1963, I heard Rabbi Joachim Prinz proclaim that silence is a crime. What is breeding silence now? The same old demons: Fear of the wealthy, deference to the powerful and a desire not to alienate "friends," merely to prevent thousands of deaths and maimings--so long as the dead are in someone else's family. Why should this decade be different from any other decade?

When that Jewish antiwar ad appeared in the Times back in 2003, I called my daughter in Chicago to tell her it was there. She and my son, who had been children in the 1970s, had bravely walked in antiwar demonstrations then, and they had signed the new ad. In the midst of our conversation, I burst into unexpected tears. I told my daughter that I felt like apologizing to them for my generation's failure. I had thought that what we did in the late sixties and seventies had made another war like that one, like this coming one, impossible. Yet--here we were.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 03 October 2007 06:04 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I generally like the concept behind "silence is a crime", as the Rabbi believes.

At the very least, silence shows moral weakness and dishonesty.

But it is important not to claim that "silence is a crime" about Israel, and not extend the same concept to other places where things fall far below decent standards of behaviour.

If "silence is a crime" when it concerns Israel, but not when it concerns Hezbollah, for example, one is simply using a different, more severe standard of judgment for Israel.

That's what discrimination is; to judge one group differently than another, without any articulable basis.

So, yes, the "children of the Holocaust" should be forced to treat Palestinians fairly, as they do not now do. And....


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 03 October 2007 06:09 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No Jeff. Silence is not a crime. In fact, when one has nothing relevant to add, except meaningless circumlocution, I would point out that remaining silent is a constitutional right in the USA.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 03 October 2007 07:21 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Presumably, you saw that I said that I like the CONCEPT that "silence is a crime" when there are clear ongoing vast violations of human rights.

And presumably, you saw that the idea "silence is a crime" was recommended for use against "the children of the Holocaust", in other words, Jews.

So, I certainly don't think people should be punished by the state just because they deny the holocaust or the crimes of Stalin.

But I do think it speaks volumes about their ethics.

Selective silence about the crimes of your side, whether it be Bush, the Communist Party, or the Burmese Junta, is always a moral crime.

The US Constitution, and the Canadian Constitution too, refer to the right to silence when there is testimonial compulsion. That means that when you are placed under oath and questions are asked which have LEGAL consequences, one may invoke the right to silence.

The right to silence has never been a moral principle which excuses lapses in intellectual honesty by those who apply a double standard to their friends and to their enemies. It's a legal principle which applies in legal proceedings.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 03 October 2007 09:41 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that some Jewish people want to penetrate the overwhellming silence (especially from those in psotions of authority) among Jewish people about the criminal aspects of the Israeli regieme. They, unlike you, seem aware that you can tune into almost any mainstream media outlet in NA, and find Jewish people condemning Hezbollah.

You seem to think that you are addressing an issue of balance. It is this very imbalance that they are addressing.

When was the last time you caught Benjamin Netanyahu, carefully articulating a "balanced" perspective on the Lebanese crisis last year? When was the last time you raised this complaint by demanding that someone balance their condemnation of Hezbollah, by also critiquing Israel's treatment of Palestinians?

Interestingly, it is only people who oppose Israeli Apartheid who you seem to think should speak with cotton in their mouths, issuing disclaimers, in each and every sentence.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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