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Argentina - Argentine prosecutors asked a federal judge on Wednesday to order the arrest of former Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani and seven others for the 1994 bombing of a Jewish cultural center that killed scores of people.

The decision to attack the center "was undertaken in 1993 by the highest authorities of the then-government of Iran," prosecutor Alberto Nisman said at a news conference.

He said the actual attack was entrusted to the Lebanon-based group Hezbollah.

This attack was of the sort usually done by neo-Nazi groups, just mindless slaughter of civilians because they were Jews.

85 people died, and dozens were seriously injured.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061025/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/argentina_iran

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For one thing making a stink in Argentina (a more or less neutral country) simply for the sake of making a stink seems completely counter intuitive. Is there some formulated motive proposed.

I note that the original judge to try the local participants in the case let them off, and now there is this...

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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One really has to wonder why the Iranians would take it into their heads to attack a Jewish institution in Argentina. Whatever might be said about the regieme, and Rafsanjani, they are at the very least pragmatic.

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The idea that the Iranian regime is "pragmatic" strikes me as laughable.

In other words antisemites they might be, but even racism follows a logical path based on its base assumptions.

This case has always seemed more than a little weird, and dubious in all its aspects. It is frought with highly speculative "speculation," such as:

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Some speculated the bombing was inspired by Argentina's support for the U.S.-led coalition that expelled Iraq from Kuwait during the Gulf War in the early 1990s. Others said Argentina's Jewish community, one of the largest in Latin America, represented an obvious target for Israel's opponents.

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Why not Canada, or England all of which sent troops, but no... the Iranians pick a relative minor player in the coalition for this act, which relates to a war which Iran gleefully watched from the sidelines. They were hardly big Saddam supporters.

This accusation exists on the periphery of possibility, much like the Dick Chenney remote control airplane 9/11 plot.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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A government is not able to exist for 30 years which is not to some extent pragmatic

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So your point is that every government is pragmatic "to some extent".

It couldn't be Iran, children, because all governments are "pragmatic to some extent".

Those foolish Argentine prosecutors! No stable government could ever commit a crime, because
they're all kinda pragmatic!

Apologists for Iran should be able to muster a better defence than that. How about: "Argentina is trying to deflect blame from itself!"

Deflect blame? Not at all. Argentina is one of the most antisimitic countries in the world. There support for Nazi Gernmany in the war, and there harbouring of numerous Nazi war criminals is legendary. I would say, on the whole Latin Americans are far more antisemitic as a people, than Arabs and Persians.

To wit: the number of possible culprits is indeed huge. Hezbollah and the nasty Iranians is just way to convenient given the present international climate.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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To wit: the number of possible culprits is indeed huge. Hezbollah and the nasty Iranians is just way to convenient given the present international climate.

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Wow, that's really pathetic.

And circular.

Iran has been a pariah state for the past twenty years. By your reasoning, anything they do can be wished away because of "the present international climate."

But maybe they are a pariah state for a reason.

You chose to assert that they are antsemites and that spite is sole motive. It is not good enough.

Case in point, Hitler, and avowed and spiteful antisemite, operated from an unpragmatic position, and look what happened to his government. Invading Russia was plain stupid.

On the other hand, Iran has managed to survive largely because they have avoided making really stupid mistakes. For instance, Iran, agreed to a cease-fire with Iraq in 1989, even though they were clearly kicking Iraqi ass.

They won the war. But wait! They did not seek exceptional demands or take the war to Baghdad, even though that was their fondest wish. No. They knew also that Iran was under immense internal stress, and running out of resources to fight the war, but winning they were. They also knew that any occupation of Iraqi territory or regieme change would invite an extreme international sanction and possibly even intervention.

The Iraqis were using huge amounts of gas.

So they stopped. Why? Pragamtism.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Where I work, we have had as a guest for the past few weeks a professor of public law from the University of Buenos Aires.

We obviously talked about the indictment of Hezbollah and Iranian government officials today.

The Argentian professor explained to us that a special investigative panel indicted the original judge because he was found to have bribed a key witness, obstructed justice, invented evidence, illegally arrested suspects (proven innocent), had mistreated prisoners (they were "beaten" i.e. he had innocent people tortured) and led an investigation that was for all intents and purposes a total sham from beginning to end.

In other words, the original magistrate who was thrown out and indicted was corrupt.

It appears he was acting on behalf of ex-President Carlos Menem's secret police and the corrupt Menem regime. Various high level intelligence officials, justice officials and others were also accused of complicity in the deliberately botched initial investigation.

The investigation was then restarted from scratch.

Today's indictments of Hezbollah and Iranian officials are the result of this new, genuine, investigation.

Motives for the Iranian secret service and Hezbollah? Well, we don't know if they are guilty or innocent yet. But they are hardline fundamentalists whose ideology condones violence or maybe the more extreme elements of both groups (the hardline secret services) just don't like Jews. Who knows what could motivate people to blow up buildings full of civilians from another ethnic or religious group halfway around thw world? Or maybe they thought they could just get away with it.

Who knows?

But at least today's indictments are the result of the true, professional investigation as opposed to the original corruption-ridden one.

The prof from Buenos Aires went into some detail for us about the vast improvements in the Argentinian criminal justice system in the past 3-4 years. Many bad apples have been removed and there is a lot of younger new blood in the offices of public investigations and prosecutions committed to modern and impartial norms of justice.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Minus Habens ]

The reason is that it is enough to prove that someone did something. Proving why they did it is unnecessary.

So, in this case, the Argentine prosecutors present evidence of who committed the crime.
they don't have to prove why the crime was committed.

It is also a very basic idea that MANY crimes are done for motives which appear insane to outsiders.

This is why there were so many apologists for Stalin: why would he kill off all those communists? It seemed so monstrous, no one believed it could be true.

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The Argentian professor explained to us that a special investigative panel indicted the original judge because he was found to have bribed a key witness, obstructed justice, invented evidence, illegally arrested suspects (proven innocent), had mistreated prisoners and led an investigation that was for all intents and purposes a total sham from beginning to end.

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I know you are unable to accept, "in the present international climate" that Iran could have done something wrong.

So, let me know when the politics have changed sufficiently that you will be open to evidence of Iranian wrongdoing.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

It is also a very basic idea that MANY crimes are done for motives which appear insane to outsiders.

This is why there were so many apologists for Stalin: why would he kill off all those communists? It seemed so monstrous, no one believed it could be true.

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This doesn't have to do with "many people." This has to do with me.

I thought it was pretty fucking obvious why he killed Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kmanev, Rykhov, Kristensky, Bhukharin and possibly Kirov, and many more between. They were his immediate collegues and his competitors for the control of the CPSU.

As for thiscase, this case smack much more of the type of fantastic claims made by Yeghov, Vyshinsky et al, that international forces of anti-communists were aligned with "sabateurs" and "wreckers" led by Nikolai Bhukarin, just because they were evil evil men opposed to socialism because, because.

Stalin certianly did not believe that Bhukarin was an agent of British intelligence.

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So, let me know when the politics have changed sufficiently that you will be open to evidence of Iranian wrongdoing.

Till, then, you are not worth talking to on this topic.

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Frankly your vague assetions that my questioning the purposes of Iranian involvement in the crime here, is something to do with being an appologist in bed with the Iranian Mullahs, (just because I suppose) are far more in line with Stalin's politics, than they are opposed. Simply to be labelled an "enemy of the people," and that is just about it.

No need to explain why I am an "enemy of the people" because motive is irrelevant, as you tried to make out. So which is it Jeff, I am a unreconstructed Marxist because I suggested a slightly differing narrative of events in Yugolzlavia during the 90's, or a fellow traveller of Islamic fundamentalist Iran, because I question the reasoning behind these allegations?

So make up your mind Jeff, don't forget the Tudehists (CPI) were wiped out by the Mullahs.

I guess the communists, and the Mullahs are aligned, now, just in the manner that Stalin suggested form communists like Bhukarhin were aligned with British intelligence.

It's amazing how closely the essence of your thinking track Stalanist ideas such as that my enemies must all be friends.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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So the justice was an Hezbollah agent working for Iran? Is that the issue?

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No, the evidence that led to his dismissal and the charges show he was working on behalf of the secret intelligence services of Argentinian President Menem.

They tried to pin the terror attacks on innocent police officers. All have been released, all have been 100% exonerated.

The new evidence (I have tried to find Argentine papers online - my Spanish is relatively OK) points to alleged complicity between certain Arab-Argentinian business interests (I guess that is what to call Argentines who are emigrants from Arab countries?), Hezbollah, Iranian elements, and a few local religious converts who adopted radical Islamist political views. Phone calls right before the bombings were traced between some of the converts and immigrant businessmen and phone lines that have been tied to Hezbollah officialdom.

Theories as for why are pure speculation but supposedly, again SUPPOSEDLY, the so-called geographic triangle where Brasil, Argentina and Paraguay meet is an area for major Hezbollah fundraising activities thru illegal activities (I am not sure if logging or illegal diamonds - papers say contradcitory things).

The bombings could have been a warning to Argentine authorities to back off. There has also always been speculation about Menem's relations to Syria and corrupt circles in Lebanon so maybe - again this has been newspaper speculation over the years - maybe circles around Menem like the corrupt judge and the secret service executives who were fired decided to doctor evidence and falsly accuse innocent people to protect Menem, a very unsavoury and corrupt president.

Or who knows?

But the story about the corrupt judge is not that he worked for Hezbollah. The facts show he worked to protect Menem. Where that leads, who can tell?

Life is weirder than art in Argentina, or "politics in my country is a Borges fiction", the law prof from Buenos Aires told us.

Makes me very glad to be Canadian - we Canadians only have to deal with Question Period and Harpercrats and the occasional Gomery mini-scandal.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Minus Habens ]

It also sounds locally inspired.

As for the Menem connections, the fact that Menem needs to be "protected" due to some aspect of the case, seems to indicate that this is indeed a very muddy situation.

Why would Menem (or any Agenetine elements) need to be protected if this was a clear cut case of international terrorism and murder?

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The bombings could have been a warning to Argentine authorities to back off. There has also always been speculation about Menem's relations to Syria and corrupt circles in Lebanon so maybe - again this has been newspaper speculation over the years - maybe circles around Menem like the corrupt judge and the secret service executives who were fired decided to doctor evidence and falsly accuse innocent people to protect Menem, a very unsavoury and corrupt president.

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So Menem is the agent of Hezbollah in the Argentine government?

Do you see what I am getting at?

If we accept this view that Menem has a hand in this at some level, we are asserting the existance of criminal and possibly deeply antisemitic elements in the Argentine government and ruling elite, itself.

I could definitely see some local Hexbollah organization getting tangled up in some business in Argentina, either as mercernaries or for political reasons, but I don't see Rafsanjani taking anything more than a cursory interest in stuff happening in Argentina.

The kind of stuff you are bringing up makes a lot more sense than the idea that the Wizard of Oz ordered the job done because, because.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

So there is an international element. I don't think anyone has yet ventured to say Menem was involved in any way.

Menem and his group come in more during the coverup and deliberate botching of the investigation. Who knows? It would have probably looked very bad to have an investigation during his reign pointing to Hezbollah (and therefore Syria) and Iran when Menem had lucrative financial ties to Syria and to Syro-Lebanese businesspeople in the "lawless" Argentina/Brasil/Paraguay borderlands now suspected of supporting Hezbollah

I think you have to be somewhat of an aficionado of magical realist novels to follow all the threads of the story.

I know it reads like a bad version of Le Carré or of a Vargas Llosa or Marquez nightmare. But, that is what is being reported.

Our Buenos Aires prof just shrugged in disgust. I gather Argentines have been thru so much in the past 20 years this is experienced as just another instalment in their tragic history

The positive thing for Argentines, of course, is that this batch of investigators and prosecutors, is seen as squeaky clean and honest.

So maybe the Argentines will finally get the truth about the bombing attack.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Minus Habens ]

Although I dislike any government with a strong theocratic flavor, the demonizing of Iran and Ahmadinejad is part of the buildup to Washington's next phase of Middle East "regime change" plans.

Maurice Motamed, the Iranian Government's Jewish member of parliament had this to say about antisemitism in Iran which holds the largest Jewish population (25,000) in the ME outside of Israel:

"He acknowledged there were problems with being a Jew in Iran, as there were for the country's other minorities. But he said that Iran was relatively tolerant. "There is no pressure on the synagogues, no problems of desecration. I think the problem in Europe is worse than here. There is a lot of anti-semitism in other countries."
Maurice Motamed

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Deflect blame? Not at all. Argentina is one of the most antisimitic countries in the world. There support for Nazi Gernmany in the war, and there harbouring of numerous Nazi war criminals is legendary. I would say, on the whole Latin Americans are far more antisemitic as a people, than Arabs and Persians.

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And thank goodness Argentine and Uruguayan militaries are finally cutting ties with the U.S.-based School of the Americas, the infamous military training school which churned out so many right-wing death squad leaders and wannabe Nazis in Central and South America. The CIA used former Nazis as intelligence agents for many years. Their torture methods are evidenced in declassified training manuals from the School. The CIA knew about Eichmann's whereabouts in Argentina for years but refused to give him away to Israel. Canada could even be considered anti-semitic for the RCMP's do-nothing attitude about our harboring Nazi war criminals in this country for over 40 years. Communists and union leaders were discomforted more by our own police and secret intel agencies here, and the same was true in the U.S. as well as Argentina for many years. Anti-communism was the game and still is in much of the western world.

In fact, "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a propaganda text first published in Tsarist Russia that allegedly describes a plan to achieve world domination by Jews. I think the Nazis re-printed it and translated into Middle Eastern-Persian languages. It popped up in Iran at some point before the 1978 "revolution." So yes, I think Iranian's are capable of being anti-Jewish as well as al Qaeda and Taliban, in addition to former secret police and military/death squads in Argentina who received instruction/training at the School of the Americas.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Minus Habens:
The criminal allegations are that there may have been local complicity but that the attack was carried out by Hezbollah elements and ordered/financed from Iran.

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The fact that the new prosecution is ignoring the local connection and focussing solely on Iranian involvement seems very strange, when there is already evidence of an Argentine government cover-up. It is very convenient.

It seems the cover up has worked. One still has to ask what Menem was covering up? Why is this not being answered judicially as part of the process of investigation and trial.

How for instance is it established that Iran financed and new about the operation, assuming that Hexbollah did it? Is it just because all Hexbollah offices recieve funding for their operations, or was money directly earmarked for this particular operation?

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The blaming of Iran for the bombing has very much the sound of a US-sanctioned propaganda operation.

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The blaming of the US sounds very much like an Iranian-sanctioned propaganda campaign.

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Of course, if all we do is choose sides and then deny anything which doesn't fit our preconceptions, then no one will ever learn anything.

We can only suppose the prosecutors have enough evidence to lay accusations at this moment against the individuals from Hezbollah and the previous Iranian government

I understand there is no deadline for further charges. This is an open-ended investigation. One can assume that charges will be laid if there is enough hard evidence of local complicity in financing or organizing the attacks.

The cover-up did not work. That is a surprising statement to make - the people behind the earlier cover-up have all been fired, or indicted on criminal charges. And this goes all the way up to some of the highest officials in the national intelligence agencies who have lost their jobs and been disgraced.

The cover-up was a total failure - authorities uncovered the evidence of complicity between judicial and intelligence officials to bribe witnesses, arrest and beat innocent police officers, doctor and fabricate evidence, and more.

The cover-up very definitely did NOT work.

This is credit to the work of the newer generation of more democratically-minded and professional prosecutors and investigators who now occupy positions of influence in the Argentinian justice system.

This is a triumph for the independence of Argentinian justice after decades of corruption and dictatorship.

To call any of this part of a US-propaganda effort to justify some future war against Iran is quite outrageous. I am going to run that one by our good law professor from the University of Buenos Aires tomorrow morning. I can only imagine the expression on his face when I mention that one to him.

Of course, what were they thinking, of course all those legal activists, human rights activists, all those Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo in Argentina have been fighting for decades for fair and independent justice intitutions just so they can support George Bush to go to war in Iran.

Some theories can be quite farfetched. We need to come back down to earth. There was an independent investigation by top professionals started all over again from scratch after the initial corrupt investigation was exposed and thrown out.

These are the results. We can put the conspiracy theories aside for one little moment, can't we?

So, Iran's theocratic government and the Hezbollah's militia wing have some very nasty ruthless and dangerous elements? How does that justify an invasion? It doesn't. But the legal file certainly does justify an indictment against the 7 named individuals against whom there is sufficient evidence to back up charges they planned and carried out an attack to kill some 80 or so Jews in Buenos Aires by blowing up a cultural institute full of civilians.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Minus Habens ]

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Originally posted by Minus Habens:
The cover-up did not work. That is a surprising statement to make - the people behind the earlier cover-up have all been fired, or indicted on criminal charges. And this goes all the way up to some of the highest officials in the national intelligence agencies who have lost their jobs and been disgraced.

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We are talking about two incident in which 120 people were killed, and a group of judicial officials covered it up for reasons which can not be properly discerned, and you are saying the adminstrative measures and disgrace are some how an appropriate measure of punishment.

To me it sounds a lot like the Oliver North case, with certain heads rolling for the sake of others.

The fact that the punishment for the judge in question is adminstrative, as opposed to judicial follows the familiar patern of the cover up.

In fact what you have established is that certain personages in the Argentian state bueracracies had an interest in covering up the events that transpired. Yet we are being asked to believe that they had no material relationship to the original crime.

What is clear now, is that these recent "indpendent investigation" mostly avoid exposing those "relationaships" to a criminal judicial process, while taking aim at the relatively safe targets of foreign organizations, and a foreign government which is in direpute.

So, it seems very much to me, that the cover up worked to the extent that no Argentines, particularly no powerful ones, are going to experience serious consequences, such as jail time, while the present prosecutor is going to get brownie points for going after immigrant Arabs and their Persian benefactors.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Of course, if all we do is choose sides and then deny anything which doesn't fit our preconceptions, then no one will ever learn anything.

That's how some people closed their eyes to Stalin's crimes.

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Absolutely true. However, as opposed to Minus Habens commentary, you have contributed nothing at all to elucidating the pertinent evidence and events that have transpired. Instead you resort to this type of insubstantive Khruezov-like rhetoric.

Here for instance Minus Habens suggests a number or reasons why Hexbollah or Iran would be involved in this mess, not that this is entirely convincing mind you, but at least they are "reasons" why they would do these things as opposed to your thesis that being antisemitic is cause enough.

How easily we could take your use of the term "antisemties" as a catch all accusation and replace it with "enemies of the people," and believe ourselves to be reading Vyshinsky. You have even tried to assert that motive is irrelevant to a judicial investigation. They did it because they were bad, more or less. Merely to denouce is enough.

Likewise your paint brush accusation that anyone who questions the accusation is an "appologist for Iran" could have been penned by Lavrentiy Beria, himself.

Inside here is a lesson you have not learned while enmeshed in your own prejudiced preconceptions. Here it is in black and white: "Stalanism" is not a political position, like left or right, it is a modus operandi, the blanket smear accusation of being an "apologist" or as you put it once, and "objective reactionary" is one of its primary tools.

It is highly ironic that while accusing people on the one hand of being Stalanist you often repeatedly assert the principles of his modus operandi. Ignoring the fact that his mode is the primary essence of Stalanism.

[ 26 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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I don't think the majority of people closed their eyes to Stalin's crimes

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Every single person in the Communist Party of Canada closed their eyes to Stalin's crimes, until Khrushchev gave a speech admitting that they had occurred.

Then, every single person in the Communist Party of Canada admitted it.

Of course, it's me "leading us off topic again." We're supposed to be discussing accusations made by that failed S. American experiment in neo-Liberalism. There were very ex-Soviets or Russian war criminals ferreted by the Church, the west or Franco'S Spain to Argentina or proximate countries.

[ 28 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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As for the Menem connections, the fact that Menem needs to be "protected" due to some aspect of the case, seems to indicate that this is indeed a very muddy situation.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Every single person in the Communist Party of Canada closed their eyes to Stalin's crimes, until Khrushchev gave a speech admitting that they had occurred.

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Even that is bullshit. Actually, a large number of people in the CPC supported Stalin, even though they had a goog idea of what was going on.

What was important about the Krushchev speech was that it allowed for there to be internal discussion of his crimes, on an official level within the party. Prior to that Stalin's criminality was not an agenda item,

This kind of brash and apparently non-sensical violence is completely out of the norm of Hexbollah, and Iran. It is the case that not only does Hexbollah usually take clear responsibility for its acts by issuing press releases taking credit for them, but they also are usually associated with a direct political aim or propoganda aim.

In the past they claimed the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beriut, and it served the explicit military purpose of trying to force the US army out of the country. Likewise, when they recently captured Israeli soldiers there was an explicit and clear political purpose of seeking to have collateral for a prisoner exchange.

This is the only example I can think of where Hexbollah would have attacked a civilian target simply for the sake of attacking a civilian target.

The fact that this steps outside of the norm for the organization, and the various complexities that have arrisen with the original investigation regarding the Argentine government, makes the idea that this was an operation sanctioned by Hexbollah, and ordered and funded by Iran, hightly suspect.

I do think it is more likely that local Hexbollah people in Argentian were involved in some rogue activties, possibly mob related, and possibly at the behest of some people in the Argentine government but highly doubt that orders came from Iran.

It just does not fit the patern of Hexbollah violence as we know it.

There is also the possibility that this was an Israeli or Aregentinian Intelligence smear operation, (I mean lets not forget that Argentine intelligence is traditionally tied to the US, not to Syria) or straighforward fascist elements in Argentina, something which always can be considered.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Even that is bullshit. Actually, a large number of people in the CPC supported Stalin, even though they had a goog idea of what was going on.

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Time Magazine's man of the year in 1939, again in 1942, and the biggest winner of the last century after beating the industrialists, banking elite and western warfiteers at their national sport.

You guys should start a new thread on A.D.D. and The Six Degrees of Joseph Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili. Or more simply, ADD and the root of all evil in the world today.

[ 28 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

[ 28 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Even Stalin agreed according to all accounts that Roosevelt was an honest man, and believed accroding to Khruscheov, and a few others that it was largely because of Roosevelt and Eisenhower, that Churchill was reigned in, even though he was actively and vocally campaigning to abrogate the Yalta agreements and occupy Berlin.

[ 28 October 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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When the Red Orchestra prediction that Germany would invade in May, 1941, did not take place, Stalin became even more convinced that Germany had invaded Yugoslavia in April. Adolf Hitler had expected the Yugoslavs to surrender immediately but because of stubborn resistance, Hitler had to postpone Operation Barbarossa for a few weeks.

On 21st June, 1941, a German sergeant deserted to the Soviet forces. He informed them that the German Army would attack at dawn the following morning. Stalin was reluctant to believe the soldier's story and it was not until the German attack took place that he finally accepted that his attempts to avoid war with Germany until 1942 had failed.

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The Slavs sabotaged the oil supply route to Turkey and what was hoped to be a Middle East supply line for the Nazis. The Nazis turned on the Slav people in a killing frenzy. Paulus ran out of fuel for the Panzers twice on the way to Stalingrad. As Napoleon's luck would have it over a hundred years later, many German soldiers were reduced to advancing on horseback. Hitler fancied himself a Roman battle line tactician and ignored the advice of his field generals every step of the way to defeat. In the end, he was ordering military pieces be moved on a strategy map of Europe and Asia with no one challenging the decisions. But his miniatures weren't representative of losses on the Eastern front.

[ 28 October 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]