quote:

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The Israeli Defence Ministry has ordered all of the border crossings with Gaza to be closed, preventing the delivery of a UN aid shipment.

Only humanitarian cases which receive Defence Minister Ehud Barak's personal approval would be allowed through, it said.

"If milk is low in Gaza, the minister will be asked to approve a milk shipment, and it will enter," a spokesman said.

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quote:

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Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is considering resigning from his post if Israel continues its military operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, a top PA official said Thursday.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Ah yes we went too long here without Godwin's law coming into effect.

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[ 18 January 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Ah yes we went too long here without Godwin's law coming into effect.

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While you would be quite right to point out that the original meaning of the word "ghetto" was the part of a city to which Jews were restricted, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary that usage dates back to the early 17th century which is certainly well before Hitler was born. In fact by 1892, when Hitler was only 3 years old, the usage of ghetto had already been extended to mean the parts of the city in which other minorities lived.

quote:

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A 47-year-old woman died when an Israeli warplane fired into a building that used to house a Hamas "interior ministry" in Gaza City, destroying the structure, they said.

The building was abandoned, but the powerful blast damaged 15 adjacent houses, killing the woman and wounding 46 others, including several children.

Many of the injured were on their way to a wedding in the neighbourhood, witnesses said.

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quote:

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Israel's targeting of a Hamas government office which caused serious casualties at a nearby wedding party was a "war crime" and those responsible should be punished, a UN official said yesterday.

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Daily life, and death, a lot of death, in Palestine.

[ 21 January 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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The strategy worked. On Thursday, 40 rockets were lobbed at Israel from Gaza. By Monday, only one rocket was fired. But the improved security comes at a price. Not only the EU but officials from the United Nations and other organizations have condemned the blockade. They accused Israel of risking the safety of Gazans as a result of mounting fuel and food shortages and power outages at hospitals. They demanded that fuel be flown to the one power plant in the Gaza Strip. In fact, the power Israel provides to Gaza through the electrical grid was never cut; the interruption was to the flow of fuel used to power that plant. As Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni aptly put it, "Israel is the only country in the world that supplies electricity to terror groups which in turn fire rockets at it."

Globe and Mail; Jan 22, 2008

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Globe and Mail

quote:

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Gaza Strip residents Monday moved from worrying about the electricity cuts of the previous 40 hours to worrying about a water shortage. The municipality needs electricity to bring water to homes and the houses need it to pump water to the roof tanks. Hence 40 percent of Gaza Strip homes - 600,000 people - had no running water Monday, the Palestinian water authority said.

Oxfam International said Monday that unless diesel and fuel supplies were resumed immediately, all the Strip's water pumps could stop working Tuesday. The non-governmental organization also warned of the sewage system's collapse in the absence of diesel.

"Without electric power we can manage somehow, without bread too," says a resident of the Nasser neighborhood in northern Gaza. "It's cold enough to prevent the food from going bad and we try to open the refrigerator as little as possible. The kids grumble but they can learn to live without the computer. But without water?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
It is a shame, and one has to wonder why such a person is posting on a progressive board when said person has shown absolutely no ability for empathy beyond the CJC and what moves them.

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I suppose what depresses me is that someone can spend so much time around the people who make up this board, the compassion and insight brought to bear by so many, and be unmoved. It is not as if the effects of the Occupation on an occupied people have not been well documented on babble. And yes, I think the ill effects of the Occupation on Israel and Israelis has been well documented as well, including the horrific shelling of Sderot.

quote:

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Originally posted by remind:

Well for me, his posts illuminate the evil ugliness and mal-intent that is driving him and those like him.

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Read Coyote's post a couple above and you'll get what I mean.

quote:

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Originally posted by Petsy:
I know some here lump me and ohara together but I do not always agree with him. However this post breaks all Babble rules. We don't refer to Babblers (no matter what your beef) as "evil" with "mal-intent". It's just plain wrong.

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I think it suits his words just fine. Please note the first and last description of evil below.

quote:

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Main Entry: 1evil
Pronunciation: \ˈē-vəl, British often & US also ˈē-(ˌ vil\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): evil·er or evil·ler; evil·est or evil·lest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil
Date: before 12th century
1 a: morally reprehensible : sinful wicked b: arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct
2 aarchaic : inferior b: causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive c: disagreeable
3 a: causing harm : pernicious

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http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/evil

[ 22 January 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

[ 22 January 2008: Message edited by: Noise ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
Too bad for ohara Petsy. He is a despicable person. Sorry but he has proven himself to be completely lacking any progressive values and compassion. That was his own doing. If we happen to abhor that, then good for us. The issue is, how much of his crap is he allowed to spew on this progressive board simply because 1) he rarely answers direct questions and 2) he continues, constantly, to post only to slyly attack those who do not like the CJC's mandate, and those who speak of progressive Jewish groups. Of course, he does both 1 and 2 without stepping too far over any lines.

Read Coyote's post a couple above and you'll get what I mean.

I feel no pity for ohara. I think remind was correct about him.

---

Secondly so there is no misunderstanding, I do know ohara and while he is sometimes excessive on both israel and cjc, I also know him to be more than progressive on social policy issues from AIDS to child poverty.

It could be that ohara is a wonderful person IRL. I'm prepared to believe that. I'm prepared to believe we could share a small carafe of wine (I don't drink much, but I do like wine) and be quite content with each other's company. But that's not the contention here.

We have a thread, here, that deals with the absolute horror of what is happening, daily, to the people of Gaza. Ohara's interjections have been designed to derail the discussion from the start. He has not even had the grace, obviously, to read or comment on what Hell is being visited on the occupied by the occupier. And this is the vast majority of his contribution to babble.

quote:

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Originally posted by Coyote:
I agree that judging anyone by one issue is problematic. And if ohara concentrated himself on the issues where he actually has a progressive perspective, and only occasionally interjected to defend Israel's attacks on the basic human rights of Palestinians, I could have a higher opinion of his contribution here.

It could be that ohara is a wonderful person IRL. I'm prepared to believe that. I'm prepared to believe we could share a small carafe of wine (I don't drink much, but I do like wine) and be quite content with each other's company. But that's not the contention here.

We have a thread, here, that deals with the absolute horror of what is happening, daily, to the people of Gaza. Ohara's interjections have been designed to derail the discussion from the start. He has not even had the grace, obviously, to read or comment on what Hell is being visited on the occupied by the occupier. And this is the vast majority of his contribution to babble.

So, sorry if there is some harshness here. And I don't agree with calling anyone "evil". But the anger directed his way is justified. Completely.

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And your contention that "He has not even had the grace, obviously, to read or comment on what Hell is being visited on the occupied by the occupier",is simply false. See ohara's comment from this thread below

quote:

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The mess in the Middle East is enough to make you cry. Israel wisely chose not to use the IDF to stop the rocket barrage against Sderot. It has the right to defend itself against terrorism. As sad and deplorable as are these events let's hope that the terrorist Hamas leadership ends the bombing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Coyote:
So, sorry if there is some harshness here. And I don't agree with calling anyone "evil". But the anger directed his way is justified. Completely.

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Coyote, are you instilling a religious viewpoint onto the word "evil"? As I gave a clear definition of what I meant by the word above which is morally reprehensible as that is how I view said actions in this regard.

However, I am unwilling to go further with this line of meta discussion, as I see it as the usual deflection away from the topic started by the same people in all the Palestinian threads.

In any of the threads about Palestine and the CJC, dialogue supporting Palestinians, illuminating their plight, and opposing the CJC's stance, is occuring.

Then All of a sudden ohara jumps in, making over the top comments, amongst other things, and of course, someone then states disagreement with his less than empathetic stances on the plight of Palestinians, or they contend his remark supporting the CJC's. All of a sudden petsy jumps in, to call it an attack against ohara's person. And by doing so, frames the future discussion towards; how, why, where, when, it was an attack upon the person, and thus the topic at hand, either the plight of Palestinians, or the CJC, or Israel's actions are deflected away from.

But guess what that can be said about a lot of people here.

He is a defender of the state of Israel. You know what many here are.

That does not make him a good or bad person and does not make him evil.

One can agree with him, disagree or stay neutral or ignore him

quote:

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But let us focus on the real racists and bigots out there. Ohara is not one of them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by remind:

All of a sudden petsy jumps in, to call it an attack against ohara's person. And by doing so, frames the future discussion towards; how, why, where, when, it was an attack upon the person, and thus the topic at hand, either the plight of Palestinians, or the CJC, or Israel's actions are deflected away from.

This happens time after time, after time in ALL of the Palestinian and CJC threads. So much so, that one has to realize that it is done with intent. If it happened just a few times, or sporadically, then one could shrug it off as just meta debate circumstance, or a natural thread drift into other areas. But it isn't just a few times, or sporadic, it is EVERY thread, just look, and think back, over them. And that is what I call mal-intent.

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quote:

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You are despicable ohara.

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quote:

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Now shall I look up the etymology of the word "asshole" or would you like to take care of that yourself?

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quote:

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The mess in the Middle East is enough to make you cry.

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quote:

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It is a shame, and one has to wonder why such a person is posting on a progressive board when said person has shown absolutely no ability for empathy beyond the CJC and what moves them.

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quote:

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Well for me, his posts illuminate the evil ugliness and mal-intent that is driving him and those like him.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Petsy:
That was quickly followed by pogge ...

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quote:

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-The United Nations Security Council will not approve a resolution condemning Israel over the closure of the Gaza Strip, due to pressure applied by the United States.

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quote:

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Mansour Rahal lay unconscious in the intensive care unit of Gaza City's Shifa hospital, linked to an electrically powered ventilator, the coloured monitor above his head showing his heart, respiration and oxygen saturation rate.

On Thursday last week, the teenager was driving his donkey cart through Beit Lahiya when it was destroyed by a missile which targeted militants in a nearby car. The rocket killed his mother and older brother, and Mansour contracted meningitis after suffering severe head wounds.

His hopes of survival yesterday depended on there being enough diesel to keep in operation the four generators which were Shifa's only source of power. His doctor, Kamal al-Geathny, said: "If we lose power, he and six other patients in this unit will die."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Coyote:
And remind, I think we fundamentally agree. I just think using a term like "evil" is loaded with all kinds of connotations that are not necessarily helpful in this discussion.

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quote:

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But Petsy would do better to pay attention to the substance of what has been said, rather than playing word games.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ohara:
Created diversion by both people? I was in Huntsville all day today without internet access. Hard to be part of a conspiracy as a result.

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But you know what. If you walk outside of the babble bubble and talk to real people you may find out the following. Some are in favour of a 1 state Israel, some are in favour of 1 secular joint state and some are in favour of 2 states.

Each are right to have their opinion. Each should be allowed to have their opinion.

While I may disagree with some of what Ohara writes. Who gave me the power to say that his opinion is 100% false?

Who is right? I don't know. But my daddy used to say that in a divorce their are 3 sides to the story -- his, hers and the truth and the truth usually has bits of his and bits of hers combined.

well in this case i am sure their is misinformation be spread by all sides. In fact I know that their has to be.

If you, or ohara, or petsy, or anyone wants to defend that, go ahead.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
This isn't about ohara. It is about an indefensible assault on humans by a combination of imprisonment, an overwhelming mechanical militaristic force, and slow strangulation.

If you, or ohara, or petsy, or anyone wants to defend that, go ahead.

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FM in reading this thread it is more about ohara than about what you posted just now.

Israel is killing innocent Gazans. It is the occupying power. There are no justifications for what it is doing. Quit trying to make them.

[ 22 January 2008: Message edited by: Coyote ]

quote:

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Britain condemns Israeli blockade of Gaza LONDON: Britain has condemned the escalation of suffering, as Israel blockades Gaza in response to a series of rocket attacks.

A call for an end to the aggression came in a joint statement by Foreign Secretary, David Miliband and Secretary of State for International Development Douglas Alexander.

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quote:

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Reports: Thousands Cross Gaza Wall

By IBRAHIM BARZAK – 48 minutes ago

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Thousands of Palestinians poured out of the Gaza Strip and into Egypt early Wednesday after masked gunmen blew dozens of holes in the border wall, witnesses and Hamas security officials said.

Egyptian guards took no action as the Gazans rushed to buy food, fuel and other supplies that have become scarce in Gaza because of an Israeli blockade, the witnesses and officials said. Police from Hamas, which rules Gaza, also stood by.

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Poor miles, never really an ohara fan, not by any definition, just points out some obvious truths and BAM he is pilloried. Talk about ostrich-like.

What will Egypt do with the thousands who are running across the border to flee Gaza.

The issue of Egypt's assistance is an important discussion to have. It does not negate the discussion of Israel and Gaza. But rather it brings another player into an already messy issue.

quote:

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Tens of thousands of Palestinians have surged into Egypt from the Gaza Strip after masked militants destroyed parts of the border wall.
Gazans rushed to buy food, fuel and other supplies that have become scarce because of an Israeli blockade - aimed at stopping rocket attacks from Gaza.

Egyptian police have so far taken no action to stop people crossing.

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bbc

[ 23 January 2008: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

quote:

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I wish there was never a blockade as strongly as I wish that Hamas would not lob hundreds of rockets into Sdeorth on a regular basis.

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Really ohara? Well, I for one, do not believe you. Remember, you were the one so powerfully against the ACJC. Your comment above speaks volumes about you. If they lob rockets then all is fine and dandy? You do realize Israel has the backing of the almighty US, and now Canada, and far far more money and military might right? You realize that in NO WAY is this an even handed conflict? You realize starving people, keeping them boarded up and locked away from the basic necessities is an abhorrent position right ohara?

Of course you do, but I suspect that doesn't matter to you. As long as Hama is "lobbing rockets" then everything Israel does is justified.

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/296628

"RAFAH, Gaza Strip–Tens of thousands of Palestinians poured from the Gaza Strip into Egypt today after masked gunmen with explosives destroyed most of the seven-mile wall dividing the border town of Rafah.

quote:

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The rockets, Mashaal said, were not the reason for the blockade.

"We stopped the missiles before, as well as all types of resistance in a tactical manner, but this did not bring the siege to an end. Therefore, the missiles are not the reason, and the siege did not begin with the fuel and electricity crisis."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
Was just checking the Star's website and things appear to have jsut gotten crazier:

"

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So the blockade was an attempt to avoid more violent measures and diminish the need for armed intervention, which would bring about a great loss of life to both sides. As a result of the blockade, rocket fire was significantly decreased. And here is the catch following the easing of restrictions yesaterday guess what, .
the rocket barrage has re-intensified.

First, as FM notes above, the shellings are not the main reason for this blockade. There have been shellings before, especially in Sderot. They have halted before through diplomatic and other measures. This blockade, then, is not a direct result of the shellings.

The blockade continues Israel's strategy of isolating Gaza so long as it remains under Hamas rule. That is the real issue here. Gaza, the world's largest open air prison, is being punished to drive out Hamas.

It is interesting to note that in the lead up to this brutal tactic, Olmert put aside (for now) a full scale invasion of Gaza, saying that it was not necessary in order to fulfill Israel's strategic objectives. Now, I'm not arguing for a full scale invasion - I think you know that - but I do find it interesting that what is used instead is a "safe" tactic which only a power with complete domination over the other can afford itself.

Even if one accepts, and I do not, that Israel has the right act in the manner it has done, it is hard to avoid the underlying conclusions one must draw. As follows:

Israel is crushing the Gazan economy, and starving Palestinian people.

Hamas is an entity which, amongst other things, attempts to thwart Israeli objectives. Were they able to stop them, they would.

Therefore, were Hamas in any position to end this enforced blockade, they would.

Therefore, Israel is in complete control of the situation.

Therefore, Israel's decimation of Gaza is cruel, and the people it is crushing have no means to defend themselves.

There is also a context to the shelling of Sderot, which, fyi, should stop, both because it is wrong in and of itself to bomb a civilian community, and because it is strategic nonsense which gives Israel cover for its actions. Israel has dominated life in Gaza for 60 years, and the Withdrawl has not led to a lessing of Israel's stranglehold over the Strip.

What should Israel do to stop the shelling? Open the borders. Help Gaza re-open its airport and sea ports. Allow the PA to open a corridor between Gaza and the West Bank. Show some kind of good faith, negotiated with Palestinian representatives.

This is not a fair fight. There is no equivalence. What should Israel do? Recognize that the shelling of Sderot, while wrong, does not warrant the crushing of a people; it is also in part a reaction to exactly the kind of thing that Israel is doing now. They should recognize that they are laying the seeds for the next round of shelling.

[ 23 January 2008: Message edited by: Coyote ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Petsy:
Israel made the difficult decision of imposing a blockade on Gaza knowing it would produce hardship for the Palestinians. However clearly,the blockade was in response to a relentless and intense barrage of bombs on Sderot and the Western Negev. Its easy for Stargazer and others to just poo poo this but I wonder how they would feel if their town was faced with daily rocket attacks?

So the blockade was an attempt to avoid more violent measures and diminish the need for armed intervention, which would bring about a great loss of life to both sides. As a result of the blockade, rocket fire was significantly decreased. And here is the catch following the easing of restrictions yesaterday guess what, .
the rocket barrage has re-intensified.

What should Israel do? Sit back and let it happen? Yes I know its the occupation stupid but in the immediacy whats to be done?

---

The blockade is collective punishment of Gaza's civilians. That means it is terrorism. Full stop.

What should Israel do? Start fixing the refugee crisis. Start fixing the broken economy which it suffocated. Start asserting the rights of Palestinians as equal human beings in every part of public life. Stop controlling and micromanaging the Palestinians' destiny. Stop stealing land, water and labour from the Palestinians by law and by force. Stop propping up corrupt puppet regimes in Palestine.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
The siege was imposed on Gaza with the election of Hamas. It is not for rockets that Gazans are being relentlessly and mercilessly punished, it is for exercising franchise and not electing the puppets put forward by Israel and the US.

The rocket fire is barely an annoyance to Israel and if it stopped tomorrow, Israel would invent another excuse to continue their barbaric, genocidal policies.

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quote:

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"We wouldn't want to see the people suffer. All these stories about collective punishment is nonsense. For us children are children whether they are Palestinians or others. We would like to see them living in peace," Peres told reporters at the World Economic Forum in Davos.

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quote:

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Israel said Wednesday it expects Egypt to "solve the problem" after at least 50,000 people crossed the downed Gaza-Egyptian border to buy supplies.

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Vilnai said Israel's effort to disengage from Gaza "continues in that we want to stop supplying electricity to them, stop supplying them with water and medicine, so that it would come from another place."

"We are responsible for it as long as there is no alternative," Vilnai said. Israel says it has tightened its cordon around the Gaza Strip to prevent cross-border rocket attacks that have sown panic in southern Israel ... The Jewish state still controls Gaza's northern and eastern borders as well as its airspace and coastal waters.

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A SENIOR Hamas official warned yesterday that the next breakout from the Gaza Strip could be into Israel, with 500,000 Palestinians attempting to march towards the towns and villages from which they or their parents fled or were expelled 60 years ago.

"This is not an imaginary scenario and many Palestinians would be prepared to sacrifice their lives," said Ahmed Youssef, political adviser to Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya.

Israeli minister Ze'ev Boim said the threat must be taken seriously in light of the successful Hamas breakout into Egyptian territory on Wednesday, adding: "We must learn from what has just happened there."

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Toronto Sun

However more to my liking and certainly more provocative is the actual Ha'aretz piece quoted in part in the Sun editorial. It speaks much more to my way of thinking and I believe to some here who at any other time would be loathe to agree with me on the fact that the sun rises every day.

Ha'aretz

[ 26 January 2008: Message edited by: ohara ]

By the way, I thought that Palestine was a land without people that was made available to a people without a land to occupy.

quote:

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Collective punishment is abhorrent. It is morally reprehensible. It is functionally self-defeating. It destroys the moral fiber of those who order it, practice it, countenance it, turn a blind eye to it. And those who are subjected to it.

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Imagine that. Equating the firing of poorly aimed, ineffective rockets into mostly empty desert and with casualties in the tens, to a barbaric siege 1.5 million people complete with starvation, deaths in the thousands, constant brutality, and terror.

quote:

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Collective punishment is abhorrent. It is morally reprehensible. It is functionally self-defeating. It destroys the moral fiber of those who order it, practice it, countenance it, turn a blind eye to it. And those who are subjected to it.

This may explain why the victims of collective punishment may find themselves resorting to its use. We are guilty of it.

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In other word's Israel's use of collective punishment is both morally wrong and achieves nothing strategically.

There is even a dotted line back to this:

quote:

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The world is unsympathetic. The world does not think highly enough of Hamas to hold it accountable for the actions of the gunners who use the launchers produced by Hamas and the rockets produced by Hamas.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
From ohara's link:

Imagine that. Equating the firing of poorly aimed, ineffective rockets into mostly empty desert and with casualties in the tens, to a barbaric siege 1.5 million people complete with starvation, deaths in the thousands, constant brutality, and terror.

The Zionists used to have a term for that. Moral equivalence, I think it was.

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quote:

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Gaza remains a prison: surrounded, strangled, guards on the walls, selectively cutting food and power. We've seen this movie: Dog Day Afternoon. The Kill Pit. The guys inside use hostages, but here, the guys inside are the hostages: 350,000 streamed through the breach, said the UN. When they get out, what do they want to do: Make holy war? No: go shopping! For bombs? No, cement, so they can build a house and marry. Antacid!

Don't worry, the border will soon close again, due to U.S. and Israeli pressure. Will people out here have learned anything from the brief gusher of ordinary life — talk about reality TV? Probably not. It all gets muddled again, so easily.

But it's a reminder not to rely on the normal versions, from official sources, relayed through the media. Take last week's spat over a Canadian government training course that named Israel and the U.S. as potential torturers. The minister ordered the names omitted.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
Why does Egypt have a wall between them and Gaza, couldn't they use the business?

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There may be an incorrect assumption in your question.

quote:

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Residents of Rafah, a divided town straddling the Egypt-Gaza border, said militants set off explosions that demolished a 200-metre (200-yard) length of the rusting, six-meter-high (20-foot-high) metal border wall put up by Israel in 2004, a year before it pulled troops and settlers from the territory.

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[ 26 January 2008: Message edited by: pogge ]

For one thing it's Palestinians on both sides, and there is a dotted line to the many Palestinians in Cairo.

Mix in Islamic Brotherhood, as well as the close tabs the gegime keeps on secular critics: they want the wall.

quote:

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If the wall was built on the Gaza side, would it matter what the Egyptians thought?

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You can bet the Israelis built the wall with some degree of coordination with Egypt.

It doesn't matter whose side the wall is on. What matters is who controls the choke point, 'gaps' in the wall. That is Egypt.

quote:

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Saying they were waging "economic warfare" against the Gaza Strip's Hamas leaders, Israeli officials told the Supreme Court on Sunday that the military intends to start cutting electricity to the Palestinian territory and continue restricting fuel.

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quote:

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Hamas leaves few options as noted

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quote:

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Please help me find a reliable source for your claim that as a result of the siege "deats in the thousands" have occured.

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quote:

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Between September 2000 and November 2007, about 1,804 Palestinian civilians in Gaza were killed by the Israeli army and 11,300 were wounded; 2,931 homes were completely destroyed, and 2,848 homes were partially destroyed. Because 71% of the population is refugees, the probability is high that those made homeless by Israel's periodic rampages were losing their homes for the second or third time. Gazan households typically consist of 6-7 people, and so the number of people affected by a single death, an injury, or a house demolition is huge.(7)

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That is killed and wounded directly and does not include those killed indirectly from lack of medical care, preventable disease, and other illnesses and effects of the barbaric Israeli policy. For example,

quote:

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The impact of the siege on health care is disastrous. The World Health Organization has reported that chronic malnutrition and dietary-related diseases are slowly increasing: low birth weights, anemia in 68% of children age 1 year and younger, and stunted growth in 13.2% of children under age 5. Other health problems include preventable diseases caused by unclean water and inadequate sewage processing, and lack of chemotherapy for cancer patients and medicines used to control chronic cardiac and other conditions. Permission to leave the area for medical treatment is typically denied.

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It is like the argument over deaths in Iraq.

"One million Iraqis have died as a result of the invasion."

"I'm sorry, but it was only 250,000."

quote:

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London - Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger has been quoted as calling for Gazans to be transferred to the Sinai Peninsula, to a Palestinian state which he said could be constructed for them in the desert.

In an interview in English with the British weekly The Jewish News, the chief rabbi also said that while peaceable Muslims should be allowed to pray in Jerusalem mosques, they should recognize that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews. Muslims have Mecca and Medina, he was quoted as saying, adding that "you don't need a third place."

Metzger called for Britain, the European Union and the United States to assist in the construction of a Palestinian state in Egypt's Sinai Desert.

According to Metzger, the plan would be to "take all the poor people from Gaza to move them to a wonderful new modern country with trains buses cars, like in Arizona - we are now in a generation where you can take a desert and build a city. This will be a solution for the poor people - they will have a nice county, and we shall have our country and we shall live in peace."

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quote:

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The child was identified as Sa’id Al Ayidy, 2, from Rafah in the southern part of the Gaza Strip. He suffered from a kidney infection. His death raised the number of Palestinian patient who died due to the siege to 98, including 17 children.

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quote:

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According to Metzger, the plan would be to "take all the poor people from Gaza to move them to a wonderful new modern country with trains buses cars, like in Arizona - we are now in a generation where you can take a desert and build a city.

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Sound like a good deal. However, some detail has to be ironed out. Since, according to Ariel Sharon "(we) the Jewish people control America"..
http://tinyurl.com/yvlptq
..would they order the USA to provide "aid" for Palestinians to enable them to make a wonderful city out of a piece of desert ?

quote:

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U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

Summary
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

http://tinyurl.com/4v6oh

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quote:

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Originally posted by adam stratton:
Since, according to Ariel Sharon "(we) the Jewish people control America"..

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I have seen this quoted before. It is basicly hearsay. Not saying he did not say it, nor saying he did. Just saying that it is a suspect quote.

Note, if you look at your source, no one is identified as actually hearing him say it: "IAP News reported that according to Israel Radio (in Hebrew) Kol Yisrael..."

IAP said that Radio Israel said... No one is identified as hearing him say it, and it is already now 3 steps down the broken telephone chain.

quote:

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According to Metzger, the plan would be to "take all the poor people from Gaza to move them to a wonderful new modern country with trains buses cars, like in Arizona - we are now in a generation where you can take a desert and build a city.

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Sounds like a good deal. Except that the Palestinians do not have US taxpyers funding transformation of deserts into wonderful cities.

quote:

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U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

Summary
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)
Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

http://tinyurl.com/4v6oh

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[ 20 February 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]