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Author Topic: Dwulit - Voting Liberal is a wasted vote
LDW
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11844

posted 24 January 2006 05:44 PM      Profile for LDW        Edit/Delete Post
'Voting Liberal is a wasted vote
The Liberals have been doing everything they can to mislead voters about strategic voting.
Greg Dwulit writes, "The heavily indebted Liberal Party will be preoccupied with fighting RCMP investigations. Paul Martin would probably have to resign..." '
Please have a little realistic perspective: whatever the Liberals may or may not have done, their conduct cannot possibly be considered as the most corrupt Canada has ever seen. Even progressive parties like the NDP have faced scandal when they've been in power provincially. And the financial skulduggery of the Conservatives under Mulroney make the Liberals look like rank amateurs. The new Reform/Alliance/Conservative wingnuts sure swept the $800,000 of government money, used to pay off Stockwell Day's personal legal liability, under the rug pretty damn quickly. In pure Rove/Dubya fashion, the Harper Gang disown any statement or action from their past that becomes inconvenient in the present : they've "dealt with that" and won't suffer any questions or rebuke. Out of the other side of their mouths, they will harass their opponents with any misstep in recorded history.

Yes, vote for the best candidate in your riding in the next election (this mandate won't likely last four years) but don't get hysterical about petty crimes and omissions. Do remember that Mulroney campaigned against the patronage of the Liberals, but once in office, he instituted more patronage appointments than Canada had ever known. Dubya campaigned against the immorality of the Clinton administration and was elected by the wingnuts on his 'values' message : what did America get? A warmongering clique dishing out tax breaks and no-bid contracts to their wealthy friends.

Save your bile for those who deserve it.


From: Quebec | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
momo
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12012

posted 05 February 2006 11:14 PM      Profile for momo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree. For sure some people in Gomery scandal belong in jail - but not Paul Martin. For sure the Liberals need to clean up their act and the hierarchy that raises funds and seeks power behind the scenes - and I hope they do.

I'd still like to find out why Jack was so quiet in the last month of the campaign. I mean calling Harper "bizarre" or saying "that's odd" and nice ways of saying things. Just not what you expect in a campaign. So what was the deal with that?

Let's remember that it is neocon strategy to divide the left and create in-fighting. And let's learn to work together again. Cause chances are - if Harper is left with 5 year majority - the country will not resemble anything we know.

I hope the NDP does not fall into the trap of helping the neocons "kill the liberals". That seems to have been the mantra. I know Buzz Hargrove strategically voting with Liberals hurts. But the NDP have known for a generation that the membership of the unions who they work so closely with - vote Liberal more often than not.

I just hope we can heal and get together to kick somebody's ass if Harper turns out to be as neocon as we are afraid he is.


From: Eastern Canada | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 06 February 2006 10:50 AM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by momo:

Let's remember that it is neocon strategy to divide the left and create in-fighting.

snip

I hope the NDP does not fall into the trap of helping the neocons "kill the liberals". That seems to have been the mantra.

snip

I just hope we can heal and get together to kick somebody's ass if Harper turns out to be as neocon as we are afraid he is.


I have exactly zero interest in "getting together" with Liberals. And I am sick to death of this constant lie that the Liberals are a progressive Party.

Who slashed health care funding in Canada? Paul Martin and the Liberals.

Who introduced draconian legislation with outrageous police powers, both in the anti-terrorism legislation and in the gun registry legislation? Jean Chretien and the Liberals.

Who sent troops into the streets of Canadian cities - troops - in our cities - with guns - I'm not making this up? Pierre Trudeau and the Liberals.

Sure, the Liberals have managed to gull any number of progressives into voting for them by pretending to be New Democrats from the day the writ is dropped until the day the writ is returned. But it is simply another Liberal lie.

The New Democratic Party has no obligation to prop up the decaying and putrid corpse of Liberal corruption, thanks.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 06 February 2006 11:04 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Vote Liberal ! They'll at least give you cab fare home after they mug you !


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
tommie
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Babbler # 8455

posted 09 February 2006 09:20 PM      Profile for tommie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Who sent troops into the streets of Canadian cities - troops - in our cities - with guns - I'm not making this up? Pierre Trudeau and the Liberals.

And in the process prevented a civil war from breaking out and helped keep our country together.

But I can play this game to.

Who introduced bilingualism to Canada?
Pierre Trudeau and the Liberals.

Who brought our constitution home?
Pierre Trudeau and the Liberals.

Who legalized homosexuality and liberalized divorce laws for women?
Pierre Trudeau and the Liberals.

Who fought for economic nationalism and nationalized our energy sector?
Pierre Trudeau and the Liberals.

Who was best friends and an “intellectual soul mate” to Fidel Castro, was the first Western leader to recognize the PRC and stood out on an international stage as a compassionate leader?
Pierre Trudeau.


From: Canada? | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
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Babbler # 4090

posted 09 February 2006 09:25 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Greg Dwulit's article
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 09 February 2006 09:25 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tommie:
Who introduced bilingualism to Canada?
Pierre Trudeau and the Liberals.

No, that was Lester B. Pearson.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
tommie
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posted 09 February 2006 09:29 PM      Profile for tommie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...and the Liberals.


From: Canada? | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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Babbler # 3322

posted 09 February 2006 09:32 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh...I hate to be the one to tell you but.. Pierre is dead, man. His Liberal party is long dead as well. Cretien and Martin succeeded in turning the party far to the right. The stole so much frim the right-wing policies that the only thing Harper had left was the "values" thing.

Who promised to scrap the GST? Cretien and Martin and the liberals.
Who promised to re-negotiate the FTA, but instead signed onto NAFTA? Cretien and Martin and the liberals.

The liberals are conservatives are liberals are conservatives. They both suckle from the same teat of corporate payoffs.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 February 2006 09:41 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Jingles:The liberals are conservatives are liberals are conservatives. They both suckle from the same teat of corporate payoffs.

...and defecate, similarly, upon us all, just as their corporate masters defecate on our environment, our air, our land and our great bodies of water. These guys are a steaming pile, as my dad's always said.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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Babbler # 11256

posted 09 February 2006 11:22 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
Uh...I hate to be the one to tell you but.. Pierre is dead, man.

What?????? When did this happen????!!!


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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Babbler # 8238

posted 10 February 2006 02:30 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And in the process prevented a civil war from breaking out and helped keep our country together.

Care to explain how he did this? Or how this squares with the fact that within six years, a separatist party went from being a fringe movement to being the government of Quebec?


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
tommie
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Babbler # 8455

posted 11 February 2006 03:37 AM      Profile for tommie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When Trudeau enacted the War Measures Act, terrorists had taken innocent individuals hostage and murdered one of them. It was a time when Canada was thrown onto the world stage. Trudeau did not know the scope of the terrorist’s power. What if Quebec was on the verge of a full-armed revolt? Canada needed to project to the world that it was united and would not tolerate armed revolt. Yes, perhaps in retrospect it was excessive. But was a complete necessity at the time.


From: Canada? | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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Babbler # 1064

posted 11 February 2006 12:09 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When Trudeau enacted the War Measures Act, terrorists had taken innocent individuals hostage and murdered one of them.

No, at the time War Measures was declared Pierre Laporte had not yet been murdered.

[ 11 February 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
E.Kootenayt
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Babbler # 12032

posted 11 February 2006 03:00 PM      Profile for E.Kootenayt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by LDW:
'Voting Liberal is a wasted vote
The Liberals have been doing everything they can to mislead voters about strategic voting.
Greg Dwulit writes, "The heavily indebted Liberal Party will be preoccupied with fighting RCMP investigations. Paul Martin would probably have to resign..." '
Please have a little realistic perspective: whatever the Liberals may or may not have done, their conduct cannot possibly be considered as the most corrupt Canada has ever seen. Even progressive parties like the NDP have faced scandal when they've been in power provincially. And the financial skulduggery of the Conservatives under Mulroney make the Liberals look like rank amateurs. The new Reform/Alliance/Conservative wingnuts sure swept the $800,000 of government money, used to pay off Stockwell Day's personal legal liability, under the rug pretty damn quickly. In pure Rove/Dubya fashion, the Harper Gang disown any statement or action from their past that becomes inconvenient in the present : they've "dealt with that" and won't suffer any questions or rebuke. Out of the other side of their mouths, they will harass their opponents with any misstep in recorded history.

Yes, vote for the best candidate in your riding in the next election (this mandate won't likely last four years) but don't get hysterical about petty crimes and omissions. Do remember that Mulroney campaigned against the patronage of the Liberals, but once in office, he instituted more patronage appointments than Canada had ever known. Dubya campaigned against the immorality of the Clinton administration and was elected by the wingnuts on his 'values' message : what did America get? A warmongering clique dishing out tax breaks and no-bid contracts to their wealthy friends.

Save your bile for those who deserve it.


It is too bad the media did not get in on the action of what the Conservatives are really doing, hope you vote Green in Quebec, the Liberals need to steal back their centrist platform from the Conservatives who borrowed it until they know they have a chance a a majority, then watch the proverbial shit .


From: Canada | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8104

posted 11 February 2006 06:08 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
Trudeau was basically a fascist.

The multicultural(which is decentralized nationalism codified by statist rule) thing was a political thing which served the liberals for over a generation. Women didn't need Piere that paternalist(who told women that they should pay for abortions btw) to help them, and women should be fighting for complete liberation not silly civilized reforms. The constitution is just another piece of paper, Castro was a fascist to, bla bla bla bla. Oh and nationalization sucks as much as the corporatization.

His death was nothing to weep about.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 11 February 2006 06:24 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was about as incoherent a rant as I've seen here.
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 11 February 2006 06:34 PM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not a fan of Trudeau either. The West and Quebec were angry after his era and Canada is less united as a result of his heavy-handed style of leadership. Also, I understand Chretien was more of an advocate for gender equality than Trudeau ever was and indeed had to lobby hard against Trudeau's objections to get gender into the Charter.
From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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Babbler # 5168

posted 11 February 2006 06:51 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tommie:

And in the process prevented a civil war from breaking out and helped keep our country together.



Ah yes. That dependable Liberal lie about the "apprehended insurrection."

I seem to recall another democratically elected leader sending troops into the streets after a phony "insurrection." About 70 years ago.

Trudeau was a fascist, and the best thing said about him is that he's dead.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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Babbler # 1275

posted 17 February 2006 09:44 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The FLQ crisis was neither phony nor (as was the Reichstag, likely) staged, and I can't even begin to fathom the depths of ignorance required to make such a comparison.
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 17 February 2006 09:58 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The crisis as in the kidnappings (and subsequent killing of Laporte) was not staged; its use as an antidemocratic tool against political enemies who had absolutely nothing to do with the kidnapping - as Trudeau well knew - was. The culprits were found through ordinary police work - they weren't the most competent of terrorists; it wasn't even particularly difficult to root them out.

I know people who were picked up and held without charge in that rafle. A lasting shame.

Edited to add: as is anyone defending the use of the War Measures Act against people for their political beliefs. And smiling about it. Hope you get the knock on the door some day, tommie...

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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Babbler # 7851

posted 18 February 2006 01:43 AM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Trudeau was a fascist, and the best thing said about him is that he's dead.

So at least we know where you stand. Can't really top that with a comment that would be suitable to public viewing on this forum.

As for 1970, far worse acts were applied in countries around the world during this period. To think one hot month was the worst the Canadian state can do, is pretty glib. Every country was in crisis during these years. At least Trudeau stood firm for all minorities whether in English Canada or Quebec.

[ 18 February 2006: Message edited by: ceti ]


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 18 February 2006 09:40 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hate the guy, but it is ludicrous to call him a fascist. I get sick of people throwing the term "fascist" around to describe any form of repression, without a historical understanding of the term.

Of course there are infinitely worse things that were going on at the time in the world, and have before or since, but that is no excuse for rounding up scores of innocent people who had absolutely nothing to do with the kidnappings. Tommy Douglas, who certainly was no indépendantiste took a memorable, principled stand against the War Measures Act.

[ 18 February 2006: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Thrasymachus
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Babbler # 5747

posted 18 February 2006 10:25 AM      Profile for Thrasymachus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Even progressive parties like the NDP have faced scandal when they've been in power provincially.
Accepting a new deck from your neighbour hardly compares with awarding government contracts to ad firms who in turn didn't even to produce any work.

On the thread drift at hand, I agree with Lagatta, and would suggest that the term fascist is being used way to loosely in this case. It's funny, the only person I know who was locked up in the October crisis didn't even speak a word of French (he was a commie living in Montreal at the time). Just to continue my disjointed thoughts. It's also interesting that at the time John Turner was quite opposed to the manufactured crisis.


From: South of Hull | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged

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