babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » current events   » international news and politics   » Pope: Orthodox churches "defective"; other Xtian denominations not true churches

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Pope: Orthodox churches "defective"; other Xtian denominations not true churches
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 10 July 2007 09:33 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This guy's making friends all over.

quote:
Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

Oh yeah? You should hear what fundamentalist Baptists have to say about you, you idol-worshiper!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 10 July 2007 09:42 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm with Brother Ratzinger on this one.

You wouldn't expect the CEO of Coke to say that Pepsi tastes just as good, would ya?

I believe that every religion is better than every other religion.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 10 July 2007 09:46 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I know. I don't have a problem with it either. They all say they're the "real" church.

Although actually, most protestant denominations do not deny the validity of other denominations' relationship with God or "saved" status. So, for instance, my Baptist church did not consider the United Church down the street to be a false church, or unsaved or anything like that.

Some of them considered Catholics to be, though! (I didn't. I thought that was dumb too.) Strangely enough, it was some of the members of our South American congregations that felt the strongest against the Catholic church, probably because most of them either converted from the Catholicism they grew up with in South America, or because it was seen as a not-so-benevolent force or whatever.

Anyhow, yeah. I don't care if he says other religions aren't "true" religions. I wouldn't expect him to say otherwise. I prefer that they say it outright and blatantly than to just believe it privately but "make nice" publicly.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 10 July 2007 09:48 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That is an interesting perspective Unionist. Except, all the Christian churches believe in the same guy. And as an atheist, this is just so delightful. Here is the Catholic Church telling every other Christian church that their faith isn't worth the paper their canons are printed on. But ... but ... but, why is the Catholic faith superior? Because "we believe" it is. Hehehehe. Perfect.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 10 July 2007 09:50 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey, I'm not finished with my soft drink analogy.

They used to sell RC Cola when I was a kid. And Coke used to say "It's the real thing." The Vatican's marketing folks just combined them:

quote:
"RC - it's the real thing!"

From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130

posted 10 July 2007 10:14 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yabbut, res melius evinissent cum Coca
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 10 July 2007 10:44 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He's a Pope in a china shop.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 10 July 2007 11:04 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 10 July 2007 07:48 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There really isn't anything new here. This has been Rome's position since 1054 or thereabouts.

That said, Benedict XVI seems to be modeling himself less after the conciliatory Benedict XV than after the hardline Pius IX - better known in English by the Italian version of his name - Pio Nono.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 10 July 2007 08:02 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
There really isn't anything new here. This has been Rome's position since 1054 or thereabouts.

Funny that these 401 news items didn't pick up on the fact that this was millennium-old stale news.

Ah well, I guess we needn't be concerned. So long as he doesn't revive other 1000-year-old positions, like burning heretics, raising Crusader armies, and selling indulgences... But that wouldn't be old news too I guess...


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 11 July 2007 09:06 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Ah well, I guess we needn't be concerned. So long as he doesn't revive other 1000-year-old positions, like burning heretics, raising Crusader armies, and selling indulgences... But that wouldn't be old news too I guess...

Ah, but these would be issues where the Roman Church has rejected its past practice as wrong. They have never backed away on the idea that only they are fully the Church.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
mayakovsky
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5171

posted 11 July 2007 09:41 PM      Profile for mayakovsky     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not Istanbul but Constantinople and everyone gets the works.

Damn, I thought I had the solution to the divide!

Shed a tear 'cause I'm missing you
I'm still alright to smile
Girl, I think about you every day now
Was a time when I wasn't sure
But you set my mind at ease
There is no doubt you're in my heart now
Said woman take it slow
It'll work itself out fine
All we need is just a little patience
Said sugar make it slow
And we'll come together fine
All we need is just a little patience
(inhale) Patience...
Ooh, oh, yeah

Sit here on the stairs
'Cause I'd rather be alone
If I can't have you right now, I'll wait dear
Sometimes, I get so tense
But I can't speed up the time
But you know, love, there's one more thing to consider
Said woman take it slow
Things will be just fine
You and I'll just use a little patience
Said sugar take the time
'Cause the lights are shining bright
You and I've got what it takes to make it
We won't fake it, Oh never break it
'Cause I can't take it

...little patience, mm yeah, ooh yeah,
Need a little patience, yeah
Just a little patience, yeah
Some more pati... (ence, yeah)
I've been walking these streets at night
Just trying to get it right (Need some patience, yeah)
It's hard to see with so many around
You know I don't like being stuck in a crowd (Could use some patience, yeah)
And the streets don't change but maybe the name
I ain't got time for the game
'Cause I need you (Patience, yeah)
Yeah, yeah well I need you
Oh, I need you (Take some patience)
Whoa, I need you (Just a little patience is all we need)
Ooh, this ti- me....


From: New Bedford | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Seeker of Wisdom
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14275

posted 11 July 2007 09:59 PM      Profile for Seeker of Wisdom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No wonder so many Roman Catholics are hiding undercover in Anglican (and other) churches. I would be embarrassed to belong to the RCs too.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 12 July 2007 06:21 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Oh yeah? You should hear what fundamentalist Baptists have to say about you, you idol-worshiper! [/QB]



I attended the baptism of my sister in law's boys years ago, in a Catholic church. My ex's fundamentalist step father attended too, but at one point, under his breath, he whispered to me that it would be the last time he walked into a church devoted to "idol worshiping".

And really, as an athiest and removed from these arguments, after I stop chuckling, I have to concur with his view that it is idolatry, and really forbidden by the ten suggestions.

If, you know, one were to believe that stuff. Applying logic to religion though is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130

posted 12 July 2007 06:54 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Personally, I'm fine with Benny taking such a public stance. It really puts it out there what he and the church are all about, and will further drive a wedge between the Vatican itself and most main stream Catholics, who aren't already PIUS X Society sympathisers.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 12 July 2007 07:02 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, well. If I was an evil athiest, and president dictator for life and last King of Scotland, I wouldn't declare a secular state.

I'd just hint that I was going to pick an official state religion, the "true one."

And stand back and watch the fur fly.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 12 July 2007 08:57 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vatican City, Rome

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Vatican Recall Hotline: (800) ASK-RATZ
July 10, 2007

VATICAN CITY-Pope Benedict XVI today announced a voluntary recall of the following consumer products. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed.

Name of Products: African Methodist Episcopal (A.M.E.), Amish, Anabaptist, Anglican, Baptist, Calvinist, Christian Science, Congregationalist, Episcopalian, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Huguenot, Jehovah's Witness, Lutheran, Mennonite, Methodist, Moravian, Mormon, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Puritan, Quaker, Seventh-Day Adventist, Shaker, and Zwinglian Christian sects (frequently labeled "Protestant").

Name of Products: Albanian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Czech Orthodox, Cypriot Orthodox, Estonian Orthodox, Finnish Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Latvian Orthodox, Macedonian Orthodox, Montenegrin Orthodox, Polish Orthodox, Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Slovak Orthodox, and Ukranian Orthodox sects (frequently labeled "Eastern" or "Oriental" Orthodox).

Manufacturer: The devil (listed on the New York Stock Exchange as "Angel of the Bottomless Pit," "Beelzebub," "Belial," "Dark Prince," "Evil One," "Fallen Angel," "Foul Fiend," "His Infernal Majesty," "Lucifer," "Mephistopheles," "Mr. Applegate," "Mr. Scratch," "Prince of Darkness," "Satan," and "Tempter").

Hazard: Can fail to achieve salvation on contact.

Incidents/Injuries: Widespread reports of salvific malfunction and consequent exclusion from the Kingdom of Heaven. Users complain of being rerouted to Purgatory and in a few instances to the Fiery Pit.

Cause: Because Jesus Christ subsists only in the Catholic Church of RomeT, adherents to other faiths that self-advertise as Christian must rely on infrequent guest appearances. Although He is omnipresent, He can't be everywhere at once.

Sold at: A complete list of retail outlets has been unavailable to the Church for the past five centuries. We continue our efforts to compile one and will post it online when we can.
Manufactured in: Wittenberg, Germany; Istanbul, Turkey; Alexandria, Egypt; Boston, Mass.; Palmyra, New York.

Remedy: Consumers should desist adherence to the abovementioned sects, now proven unreliable, and transmit their souls to the Catholic Church of RomeT. United States residents may use this Catholic Church locator. For those who are already deceased, and therefore ineligible for salvation, the Church has commenced discussions about reopening Limbo, which the Vatican decommissioned in April.

(currently making the rounds)

Source

[ 12 July 2007: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
marzo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12096

posted 12 July 2007 10:27 AM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
BoomBoom,
You forgot to mention the 'Jews for Jesus'. You don't want them to feel neglected and unloved, do you?
When Ratzinger calls other Christian churches 'defective', he is probably comparing the flamboyant costumes of the Catholic leadership to the inferior fashion sense of heretical sects.

From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 July 2007 10:32 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He mentioned them. They're otherwise known as "Pentecostals".
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
marzo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12096

posted 12 July 2007 12:49 PM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry about thread drift but...

If these folks want to call themselves 'Jews for Jesus', then that's who they are.
The people in 'Jews for Jesus' must really be the most despised of minority sects when progressive, inclusive, anti-racist people won't even acknowledge their name. They have the free choice of religion just like everybody else.


From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 July 2007 01:03 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suppose. I mean, I guess one could call oneself an "anti-racist for white supremacy" too, but somehow I doubt the majority of people would accept that person's self-description as an anti-racist. More likely they'd say, "No, you're just a white supremacist."
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 12 July 2007 08:32 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker of Wisdom:
No wonder so many Roman Catholics are hiding undercover in Anglican (and other) churches. I would be embarrassed to belong to the RCs too.

I've made the jest elsewhere that the typical North American Roman Catholic is an anonymous Anglican. S/he wants catholic liturgy, catholic sacraments, catholic church order; thinks priests should be allowed to marry; sees nothing wrong with the ordination of women; and doesn't want to listen to the Pope. That pretty much describes mainstream Anglicanism.

Seriously though, I'm surprised that this is getting as much ink as it is. The fact that (as unionist points out) 401 news articles thought this was news doesn't make it news. This is consistent with every public statement from Rome on this question for several centuries.

It's like announcing that the Conservatives support free enterprise, the Opimium Society likes wine, the Lyric Light Opera Society are fond of Gilbert and Sullivan and most of Saskatchewan likes the Riders.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 12 July 2007 10:15 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One of the better atheistic arguments is that all religions are atheistic in regard to other religions. Looking more closely, however, it really is only the monotheistic religions that seem to have this sort of vulnerability or weakness. They've either got the "one true God" thing correct or they don't; it's hard to find a middle ground, theologically speaking, here.

As some others on this thread have already suggested or implied, if the Bishop of Rome addressed this question in some other way, I would expect that Catholic theology would be entangled in some even more unpleasant contradictions (for Catholics, that is) than the assertion that other churches are "defective".


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
marzo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12096

posted 13 July 2007 03:49 AM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I suppose. I mean, I guess one could call oneself an "anti-racist for white supremacy" too, but somehow I doubt the majority of people would accept that person's self-description as an anti-racist. More likely they'd say, "No, you're just a white supremacist."

I understand that you think they're wrong because you are atheist, but that is a slanderous attack.

From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 July 2007 03:59 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not saying Jews for Jesus are white supremacists. I was making an analogy about claiming to be a member of two mutually exclusive belief groups. Saying you're one thing when you're actually the opposite is dumb. Claiming to be a Jew when you're actually a Christian makes other Jews say, "No, you're not a Jew, you're a Christian. Your belief in Jesus as the Son of God makes you a Christian, not a Jew."

Just like if someone claimed to be an anti-racist but actually held white supremacist views, and claimed they were an anti-racist for white supremacy, other anti-racists would tell that person to give her head a shake, and that she isn't an anti-racist because her belief in the supremacy of white people makes her a white supremacist, not an anti-racist.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12752

posted 13 July 2007 04:27 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Except this is where Jews for Jesus would take exception as to whether Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive. The major theological difference ( and I'm aware of most of the others) between Judaism and christianity is that Judaism is over the nature and identity of the Messiah.
From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130

posted 13 July 2007 06:47 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd describe Jews for Jesus as a particularly insidious and predatory christian sect. They use Jewish forms and idiom to specifically target Jews to leave their faith and to become Christian, and I don't believe they're honest about it. They cause harm within Jewish families and culture in general.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 13 July 2007 11:49 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The funny thing is, the Jews for Jesus are the most legitimate of Christian sects (and they are christian, don't fool yourself).

Jesus, should you believe in his holiness never said that the laws of the Torah were outdated and could be ignored as we felt necessary.

By believing in Jesus and following the Talmudic laws, they're actually following his word closer than anyone else.

As for il Papa, good on him, These wars of Resource (oil) and distraction (Terror!!) are getting old and tired, and I could use a good religious war to throw my fervour behind.

I ain't seen a good heretical burnin' in some time now.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 July 2007 03:48 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Most Christians would say that the law was fulfilled in Christ, and that therefore there is no need for us to follow the law.

Jesus said that it is not what goes into the body that defiles it, but what comes out (e.g. words and deeds). This is generally interpreted to be a setting aside of the necessity to follow religious laws on food and clothing and the like.

Jesus has a lot to say about the ultra-religious people who he felt spent all their time guarding against breaking one of the laws, while neglecting the more important spiritual principles of love, kindness, and forgiveness. (We all know legalistic Christians like that too - it's amazing to me that they can't see themselves in that scripture!)

If you read the new testament, you can see the reasons why Christians believe that the old testament law no longer applies.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 13 July 2007 04:47 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had to laugh at this cartoon about it:


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 16 July 2007 09:15 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Most Christians would say that the law was fulfilled in Christ, and that therefore there is no need for us to follow the law. ....If you read the new testament, you can see the reasons why Christians believe that the old testament law no longer applies.

Definitely agree with you on that point, Jebus' message really was that the tolerance love, respect, etc were more important than making sure you walked around an olive tree before sunset on the 3rd sabbath of june, or whatever wild laws there were in there. All I'm saying is that he never said those laws were to be ignored.

I've been through this a few times with Xians about the 'old' laws, especially when it comes to the old 'leviticus says gays are evil' and me bringing up the 'yeah but it also says shell fish are an abomination just like gays, I saw you at red lobster last week'. It inveriably leads to the 'Jebus corrected the stupid laws.'

In fact, this sort of comes right back to your point that the people reading the scripture are too worried about specific laws and not enough about the message of tolerance and peace.

Sounds like we need another Jesus refresher!


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ceti
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7851

posted 16 July 2007 05:46 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, Ratzinger putting this out there is big news, because it is another sign that he is actively undermining Vatican II. He already led the charge against liberation theology, but now is going further.

A different pope could have actually leveraged the church's power in a very different and much more progressive way. Ratzinger really blows the historical moment.

Hope for the church died with John Paul I and his mysterious eery death....


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
mayakovsky
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5171

posted 16 July 2007 06:47 PM      Profile for mayakovsky     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I still want to hear 'Patience' done in Gregorian or Orthodox chant!
From: New Bedford | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca