I guess its a matter of "Who" these people are in your work place. Admins, Sales, VP's. You would also need to find out how long they have been there.

If your office is as toxic as you say chances are that it because of inaction on the part of senior management. Nothing is fair in the office and personal ties can weight heavily on re-org decisions. Toxic workplaces can turn into hell depending on how management handles the corp culture.

"Is there a suggestion box?"
"Maybe writting an anonymous letter"
"Requesting a no-politics policy has worked at some places I have worked."

quote:

---

Originally posted by GT Snowracer:
I guess its a matter of "Who" these people are in your work place. Admins, Sales, VP's. You would also need to find out how long they have been there.

---

And what gave you the impression that I'd think these two bigots are feminists? They ain't. They're not power hungry either, or managers. Just sexist bigots.

I'm just looking for a couple pieces of advice:

1. How best to approach the issue with management.
2. How to turn my workplace into a progressive place.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StockwellDay:
... And these two women, in addition to being conservative reactionaries, are quite sexist as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jas:

LOL...why did it take you three posts to get to that point?

---

.. And two posts do not equal 'trolling'

[ 02 May 2006: Message edited by: jas ]

I see where they are coming from, I just thought it was more important to be constructive than to be right regarding thread locations and what not.... Maybe the Racism thread would be good OR like StarG said ... in the Labour area.

What were we talking about?

O yeah. No, there's no 'suggestion box'. I've always hated those things.

I hear a lot of bigotry here at work as well. Mostly lately about 'indians ruining things' and so forth. I am also loathe to take it anywhere in case people think I'm overreacting.

One supervisor overheard a conversation this past December in the lunchroom where one of the women was angrily attacking my sadness that a Muslim family's home had burned down. I tried to reason with her. Then I was shocked into silence by her vitriol. The supervisor said 'I think {insert my name}'s right.' And then there was silence, and they started to talk about shopping, and I did my dishes and left.

[ 02 May 2006: Message edited by: StockwellDay ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
Wow, i don't envy you this position Stockwell. I can only imagine what kind of personwould take offense to what you said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by StockwellDay:
I work with a couple of young women who have said some pretty lousy things about immigrants and homosexuals. I would love to get them fired.

---

Hearing one side, I would beware knee jerk support of draconian solutions that leave workers unemployed.

An excellent title. One might also ask what part bigotry may play on this message board.

Given response to this thread and nil response to a question of bigotry yesterday, one might well believe that it was not so much the message but who posted what. Eastern chauvinism, perhaps?

A reminder: It was in The rest of the World and referred to an exciting engineering project that may link Africa and Europe but that may be scuttled by bigotry - much, perhaps, under the guise of concerns about immigration. (How many dreams are killed by bigotry?)

quote:

---

Originally posted by skeptikool:
In the post that opened this thread the writer says that he/she wanted to get workers fired, not have them change their attitudes or work toward that end.

Hearing one side, I would beware knee jerk support of draconian solutions that leave workers unemployed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sineed:
It sounds like you've all got way too much time on your hands to stand around and talk politics. The bigot needs to be in a faster-paced work environment, where she doesn't have the time or opportunity to spread her unpleasant point of view.

---

It's been my experience that while going to HR seems like a good idea, it usually ends with you being the isolated one (yeah this happened to me too).

quote:

---

Hey now... we're all very busy. I rarely even take a lunch (in part to avoid them). These comments seem to be an ingrained part of their personality.

---

I finally said that I couldn't listen to that and we wouldn't be going out with them ever again.

quote:

---

I'll probably stay on and remain frustratingly aloof. I need this job. I think my tact will have to be to continue to talk in a progressive and political manner around all the other staff, and enjoy watching those two fume. I can outlast them.

---

quote:

---

I would never listen silently to shit - ever - because it makes them think people agree with them.

---

It's pretty hard to change people's attitudes. However, it's a lot easier to change their inappropriate behaviour. Telling them that you don't appreciate their comments might help. Sounds like you're past that stage.

Once management is aware, it becomes their resonsibility to deal with it if disciminatory behaviour or harassment is taking place. Sounds like you're dealing with a "poisoned work environment".

Maybe you could propose that management sponsor a 3 hour anti-harassment training seminar for starters so that people are aware of what's "OK" and what's not. You could try to pitch it as a "win - win" proposal.

I think that getting people fired should be a last resort - saved for the worst offenders and meant as a strong message to others. Even with a union, these can be tricky waters to traverse.

You might want to begin documenting everything (privately) in order to cover your own butt. Try to sound "reasonable" but make it clear that the behaviour crosses the line and is unacceptable in this day and age.

[ 03 May 2006: Message edited by: Polunatic2 ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polunatic2:

You might want to begin documenting everything (privately) in order to cover your own butt.]

---

The best thing you can do is document in writing - with the names of both participants and reliable witnesses - as many instances of this behaviour that you can. The more the better. It would require a few weeks or perhaps months of such documentation to accurately identify such behaviour as chronic and ongoing.

Then a case can be made to your local citizen's advocacy group or your local government that can be directed at either the participants or even the business regarding such petty, mean-spiritedness.

Unfortunately there are an awful lot of people whose lives are circumscribed by their workplace and the sitcoms they watch at home. Consequently they are prone to both consciously and unconsciously repeating - and even emulating - towards those they work with, whatever tripe they encounter on the tv and in various other forms of media.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jas:

That's actually the best advice yet in this rather hard-to-follow thread. Anyone in any position where creepy shit is going down should be doing this. But StD will need to record specific statements or actions, and not just make vague and generalized complaints about "racism" or "sexism" or "men vs. women" as he has done in this thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by otter:
Most provinces have legislation covering discrimination and prejudice, within both the workplace and the community itself that might well address this very issue. Local citizen advocacy groups should be able to point you in the right direction.

---

quote:

---

Most provinces have legislation covering discrimination and prejudice,...

---

Just as is handled by our LRB, otter. (Labor Relations Board)

I just wish your post had been the second in the thread.

quote:

---

Originally posted by skeptikool:
The workplace may also have that person with the permanent chip on the shoulder, eager to pounce,
nursing the wrath etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by otter:
Most provinces have legislation covering discrimination and prejudice, within both the workplace and the community itself that might well address this very issue. Local citizen advocacy groups should be able to point you in the right direction.

The best thing you can do is document in writing - with the names of both participants and reliable witnesses - as many instances of this behaviour that you can. The more the better. It would require a few weeks or perhaps months of such documentation to accurately identify such behaviour as chronic and ongoing.

Then a case can be made to your local citizen's advocacy group or your local government that can be directed at either the participants or even the business regarding such petty, mean-spiritedness.

---

It is my personal believe that all of us have a duty to speak out against hate speech. And I mean duty. It is like refusing to do unsafe work or allowing a newbie at the workplace to put thmeselves in danger by doing unsafe work. A poisoned workplace hurts everyone and often times the people most affected do not have the emotional strength to take on the advocacy role themselves.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
It is my personal believe that all of us have a duty to speak out against hate speech. And I mean duty. It is like refusing to do unsafe work or allowing a newbie at the workplace to put thmeselves in danger by doing unsafe work.

---

quote:

---

A poisoned workplace hurts everyone and often times the people most affected do not have the emotional strength to take on the advocacy role themselves.

---

Quite the catch 22 you set up for anyone trying to make a difference. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. And never good enough from your perspective.

[ 03 May 2006: Message edited by: kropotkin1951 ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
So what wasn't plain about that Makawa. I'm sorry if I didn't state it too your satisfaction. At least this time you haven't called me a racist YET for having the audacity to advocate that all people should fight racism.

---

[ 03 May 2006: Message edited by: Makwa ]

[ 03 May 2006: Message edited by: Makwa ]

Things are not so black and white and it is not easy to fight what you are against. It's not like everyone is going to pat you on the back for sometimes radically altering the workplace. There is a real fallout when people come forward with instances and cases of racism, sexism and sexual harassment. It would be naive to assume that coming forward makes you safe when most often it puts your job and your ability to take care of yourself and your family in jeopardy.

quote:

---

Sorry, but putting food before my family members sometimes takes precedance over my dignity or peace of mind.

---

And there are tactful ways of letting someone know they're out of line. I've used the example before of the woman who pointed to a poster commemorating Black History Month and whispered, "What about white history month?" I said, people of colour might say every month is white history month, and knowledge of black history has been suppressed so Black History Month helps to even things out. Not exactly a fire and brimstone reply, I know, but I think to say nothing would imply a tacit agreement.

quote:

---

It is my personal believe that all of us have a duty to speak out against hate speech.

---

What needs to be explicit is that it's not just people from affected groups that have to make noise. The bile is vile whether or not members of the targetted group are present at the time or even "represented" in the workplace.

The workplace is poisoned as long as people feel they can say "those f***ing this" or "these f***cking that". The impact may be different and experienced in different ways by different people but the poison is still there.

There was nothing in Kropotkin's analysis that said that someone needs to isolate themselves to the point of losing their job. I think his point is that someone's got to take a stand.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
So what wasn't plain about that Makawa. I'm sorry if I didn't state it too your satisfaction. At least this time you haven't called me a racist YET for having the audacity to advocate that all people should fight racism.

Quite the catch 22 you set up for anyone trying to make a difference. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. And never good enough from your perspective.

---