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Author Topic: Anti-gay reggae performer charged in hate attack
Hephaestion
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posted 27 September 2005 06:39 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
(Kingston, Jamaica) Buju Banton, one of Jamaica's most famous singers, has been charged with assault in connection with a vicious attack on six gay men.

Police allege that Banton was one of about a dozen armed men who forced their way into a house in Kingston last year and beat up the occupants while shouting homophobic insults. Several people were taken to the hospital following the attack.

Banton, whose song Boom Boom Bye Bye threatens gay men with a "gunshot in ah head", was identified by several witnesses.

He will appear in court on Friday to answer the charges. In the meantime Baton is out on bail.

"This trial is test case on whether gay people can get justice in Jamaica," said Brett Lock of the UK-based gay human rights group OutRage, which has spearheaded an international campaign against homophobia by reggae singers.

"Some Jamaicans fear that Mr Banton¹s celebrity and the strongly homophobic attitudes that exist in Jamaica will deny justice to the victims of what was a horrific homophobic assault," said Lock.

Gay sex is illegal in Jamaica, punishable by jail, with the possibility of hard labor.

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Hephaestion
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posted 01 October 2005 05:33 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Reggae singer accused of gay bashing serenaded by equally bigoted fans

quote:
Jamaican reggae star Buju Banton, one of two men charged with assault in connection with a vicious attack on six gay men, made a brief court appearance Friday.

Banton had his $50,000 bail extended and was ordered to appear back in court later this month.

When he emerged from the courthouse he was mobbed by hundreds of fans in a show of support. The crowd carried signs denouncing gays and played and sang along to Banton's hit song Boom Boom Bye Bye which threatens gay men with a "gunshot in ah head".

"The earth belongs to man and woman not man and man, so they should free Buju," a Rastafarian man told the Kingston Observer.

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America is Behind
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posted 02 October 2005 12:02 PM      Profile for America is Behind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
People as stupid as that "rastafarian" are the only way Ed Broadbent can justify his opposition to marijuana legalisation.
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Hinterland
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posted 02 October 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rastas are funny. When I lived in Jamaica, you could almost always count on a real rasta (as opposed to the wolves in sheep's clothing) to be civil, polite, helpful, enaging and completely non-threatening (and this is a big deal in a country as violent as Jamaica). I quite enjoyed them (except for all the stoner stuff - we all know what it's like when non-stoned people have to talk to the stoned). But on the gay-thing; hoo doggies! Like a lot of Jamaicans, at that point, their eyes take on a distant, vacant look and the whole pre-recorded condemnations against homos start up.

[ 02 October 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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blake 3:17
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posted 02 October 2005 12:45 PM      Profile for blake 3:17     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Reggae Star Gay Attack Trial Will Test Jamaica’s Gay Rights Stance
28-Sep-2005
Benjamin Cohen, PinkNews.co.uk Editor
Jamaican reggae star Buju Banton will stand trial for assault on a group of gay men. The arrest follows long standing criticism of his attitudes to gay men in his songs.
Jamaican police claim that Banton was one of a group of men who forced their way into a house in Kingston in June last year and beat six men who they accused of being gay.
Mr Banton was bailed for $J50,000 after he pleaded not guilty to the charges at the preliminary hearing at the local magistrates court.
Banton’s trial will take place this Friday (30th September). OutRage! the gay rights group led by human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell has long campaigned against artists such as Banton who they argue incite violence against gay men and women in their song lyrics.
Speaking on behalf of the organisation, Brett Lock said that the trial will be a test case for the rights of gays in Jamaica. “Some Jamaicans fear that Mr Banton’s celebrity and the strongly homophobic attitudes that exist in Jamaica will deny justice to the victims of what was a horrific homophobic assault. We pay tribute to the police officers who eventually pressed ahead with these charges, despite huge pressure not to do so. It our hope that the court will show similar resolve.

Full story.


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America is Behind
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posted 02 October 2005 07:30 PM      Profile for America is Behind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's see of the centre-left government has the stones (and enough ganja) to risk their political near future and stand up for what is right and just.
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Hephaestion
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posted 02 October 2005 07:55 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I predict not. The Jamaican government is filled with bigoted homophobes, just like the general population. Sure, there *are* exceptions, but that's exactly what they are -- exceptions to the general rule. And it's shitheads like those bigots who murdered my friend, Brian Williamson.
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Michelle
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posted 02 October 2005 08:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't understand this title to the article blake 3:16 posted:

quote:
Reggae Star Gay Attack Trial Will Test Jamaica’s Gay Rights Stance

How can Jamaica be credited with having a "gay rights stance" if gay/lesbian sex is illegal there?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 02 October 2005 08:55 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In Jamaica, homosexual intercourse is illegal. Lesbian sex isn't mentionned.

It is rarely enforced, and gays and lesbians have less to fear from the courts in Jamaica (when crimes actually make it to the courts, Jamaican courts are, for the most part, pretty fair) than extrajudicial "justice" meeted out by gay-bashers, which very often include the police.


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Hephaestion
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posted 02 October 2005 09:12 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

How can Jamaica be credited with having a "gay rights stance" if gay/lesbian sex is illegal there?



Simple. Jamaica's "gay rights stance" is that gays don't *have* bugger-all rights.

quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

In Jamaica, homosexual intercourse is illegal. Lesbian sex isn't mentioned.



Ummm... wouldn't lesbian sex be considered covered by the term "homosexual intercourse"? (Not meaning to be 'funny' -- I'm seriously asking.)

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Hinterland
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posted 02 October 2005 09:23 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to the Ilga World Legal Survey

quote:
Sections 76-79 Penal Code criminalize homosexual intercourse between men with a penalty of up to 10 years imprisonment and hard labour. A penalty of up to 7 years imprisonment, with or without hard labour, is provided for anyone attempting to commit homosexual acts or an "indecent assault" on another male person.

Sexual acts between women are not mentionned in the penal code. In the entire time I was there (5 years), the police attempted lay charges in one case (where two guys were caught in a state of semi-dress...for God's sakes, it's the tropics...everyone's semi-dressed...lying together in a car), but the case never came before a judge and was dismissed for lack of evidence (no witnessing of penile-anal insertion, I believe).

[ 02 October 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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Michelle
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posted 02 October 2005 09:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Ummm... wouldn't lesbian sex be considered covered by the term "homosexual intercourse"? (Not meaning to be 'funny' -- I'm seriously asking.)

Doubtful. To most people I've known who are conservative about sex, "intercourse" means penetration (and not with an object, either). I know sodomy laws often include anal and oral sex, but I don't think they call oral sex "intercourse".

Which fits kind of nicely into that whole, "oral sex isn't REAL sex and intercourse is the real event" manner of thinking of sex.

[ 02 October 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


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Hephaestion
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posted 03 October 2005 03:35 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, this is just ugly as hell. I gleaned this from the 365gay.com forum...

quote:
Just when you think homophobes can't possibly get any stupider -- they do. Here's one from Bob Marley's son:

-- DAMIAN MARLEY has defended reggae songs which advocate "burning" gays, because the lyrics are metaphorical and spiritual. --

You can read the article here: http://tinyurl.com/7a8j2

----------

Here are some of the actual lyrics from these shitty Jamaican songs. You be the judge and decide if they are metaphorical and spiritual -- or whether Marley is a bald-faced liar:

From Beenie Man:

"Hang chi chi gal wid a long piece of rope." "I'm dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays." "Tek a Bazooka and kill batty-fucker." "All faggots must be killed." "We burn chi-chi man and then we burn sodomite and everybody bawl out, say, 'Dat right!'"

And from Elephant Man:

"Dance wi (we) a dance and a bun (burn) out a freaky man. ...crush out a bingi (queer) man." "Battyman fi (must be) dead! Gimme tha tec-nine (pistol), Shoot dem like bird." "Battyman fi (must be) dead! Get a shot inna yu head, inna mi big gun collide" (when meet my big gun).

From Vybz Kartel:

"Bow (blow-job) cat, sodomite, batty man fi (must) gat assassination," "Faggot fi (must) get copper (bullet) to di heart, A wet yuh up wid di Maggy" (I shoot you with the Magnum). Or T.O.K.: "From dem a drink inna chi chi man bar, Blaze di fire mek we dun (kill) dem!" And Sizzla: "Shot battyboy, my big gun-boom" and "Boom! Boom! Batty boy them fi (must be) dead."


http://www.indegayforum.org/authors/varnell/varnell137.html


[ 03 October 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


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Southlander
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posted 03 October 2005 07:18 AM      Profile for Southlander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does anyone from Jamica, or who's lived there, read this? What are they brought up to believe? I have taught my children that people are born homosexual, I also have unfortunitly hinted that it's not great if you are; but if you are you may as well get on and live it. I'm still working on the "It's not good to pretend to be heterosexeual if your gay, but people do" side of things.
It's so cool here in NZ,(and most places) we have male students that are obviously Gay at school, and they hang out with the girls, and nobody seems to mind. What a change from when I was at school.
A couple of top lines for anybody that's goes on and on about being homophobic..."You seem very interested in the subject? " or " You do realise it's NOT contageous don't you?"

[ 03 October 2005: Message edited by: Southlander ]


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Hephaestion
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posted 03 October 2005 07:57 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Southlander:

Does anyone from Jamica, or who's lived there, read this? What are they brought up to believe?


Well, here's a couple of stories that might give you an indication, Southlander:

Jamaica Observer- Dunoon Park Technical High School

Jamaica Observer- Brian Williamson

And here's a babble thread from awhile back about both cases.

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Michelle
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posted 03 October 2005 07:58 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only person I know who is from Jamaica is a close friend of mine from my old church who left when I did over the homophobia there. So it was kind of a surprise to me when I first heard (here on babble) how homophobic Jamaica was. No, not because I think my friend is representative of all Jamaica in all ways, but just because I hadn't heard that before.
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Hinterland
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posted 03 October 2005 08:51 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As much as I love Jamaica and Jamaicans, it is a profoundly dysfunctional society on so many levels. A lot of the problems of the country are systemic, rooted in poverty and class, with guns, drugs, fundamentalist religion and widespread corruption being almost insurmountable barriers to real change.

The homophobia of Jamaica is rooted in the psyche of the male culture that exists there. The vast majority of Jamaican men grow up in single-family, female-dominated households, where the father is rarely seen and rarely a great role model. Young men assert themselves with regard to the dominance of their mothers in many ways, but the easiest way is for them adopt a hyper-macho persona and singling out gay men is a way of validating this machismo.


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chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 11:39 AM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
As much as I love Jamaica and Jamaicans, it is a profoundly dysfunctional society on so many levels. A lot of the problems of the country are systemic, rooted in poverty and class, with guns, drugs, fundamentalist religion and widespread corruption being almost insurmountable barriers to real change.

The homophobia of Jamaica is rooted in the psyche of the male culture that exists there. The vast majority of Jamaican men grow up in single-family, female-dominated households, where the father is rarely seen and rarely a great role model. Young men assert themselves with regard to the dominance of their mothers in many ways, but the easiest way is for them adopt a hyper-macho persona and singling out gay men is a way of validating this machismo.


I am a bit agog here. Where do you get this information? This is one of the crassest stereotypical views I have seen in a long time. For example, the "vast majority" of families are not female single-led households, although the female led single household is a large group, measured at 46% in 1993. And why do you assume that it is a male backlash against their single mothers which is responsible for their attitudes of male dominance?

I agree many problems exist in Jamaica: my wife is Jamaican, and her brother was murdered last month in Kingston last month. There is a significant amount of crime, drugs, police corruption and poverty, which is rooted in the history of slavery and colonial exploitation. It is true that homosexuality has long been oppressed, and remains so, but to assert the tired stereotype of the dysfunctional single mother family is a means of removing the blame from the real source, the history of human enslavement and exploitation.


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Hephaestion
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posted 03 October 2005 01:56 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It is true that homosexuality has long been oppressed, and remains so, but to assert the tired stereotype of the dysfunctional single mother family is a means of removing the blame from the real source, the history of human enslavement and exploitation.


Hey now, CB... let's not be letting their hate-filled "spiritual leaders" totally off the hook here, eh?

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Hinterland
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posted 03 October 2005 02:43 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I am a bit agog here. Where do you get this information? This is one of the crassest stereotypical views I have seen in a long time.

I lived there for five years. Don't be so quick to accuse me of crass, stereotypical views.

quote:
For example, the "vast majority" of families are not female single-led households, although the female led single household is a large group, measured at 46% in 1993.

The last statistic I heard was that 70% of Jamaican households were single-parent, female headed. If you know Jamaica, you know that one of its biggest problems is getting comprehensive statistics. Maybe "vast majority" is exaggerated, but not by much.

quote:
And why do you assume that it is a male backlash against their single mothers which is responsible for their attitudes of male dominance?

It's not a backlash, per se. It's a natural part of growing up when you distance yourself from your parents. The lack of good male role models exacerbates that problem. There is no dearth of information, anecdotal or research-based, regarding the marginalised role of men in Caribbean society. The men quite often argue that they are being marginalised, but that strikes me as typical male whining.

quote:
I agree many problems exist in Jamaica: my wife is Jamaican, and her brother was murdered last month in Kingston last month. There is a significant amount of crime, drugs, police corruption and poverty, which is rooted in the history of slavery and colonial exploitation. It is true that homosexuality has long been oppressed, and remains so, but to assert the tired stereotype of the dysfunctional single mother family is a means of removing the blame from the real source, the history of human enslavement and exploitation.

You're overstating what I meant. I'm not blaming single mothers; in fact, Jamaican women do a heroic job of compensating for the many, many problems in that country. And I didn't address the issue of colonialism and slavery, because, although true, knowing this does not provide solutions to the problems of the here and now. Well, colonialism does, but it's American/Western emperialism/colonialism that is part of the problem now, not the old British one.

If you want to accuse me of blaming someone, I'll tell you who I do blame; the pampered, unjustifiably wealthy upper-class (who laughingly think they're middle class because they assess themselves with respect to North Americans, not Jamaicans) who don't see any real, pressing need to change things. Life is good for them (believe me, I know). For them, every adult in the household has a car, so, no need to take public transit. Every house is secure with walls and razor wire, so no fear of threats to personal security. All their jobs have perqs a-plenty (6 weeks holidays, private health insurance, subsidised car loans, etc.) And when it all gets too much for them, why a quick jaunt to Miami or Toronto cures what ails you (which they can do easily, since obtaining a visa isn't as hard for them as for everyone else.)

If I were to pick one thing in Jamaica to concentrate on, it would be corruption. It's everywhere.

[ 03 October 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 03:57 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

If you want to accuse me of blaming someone, I'll tell you who I do blame; the pampered, unjustifiably wealthy upper-class (who laughingly think they're middle class because they assess themselves with respect to North Americans, not Jamaicans) who don't see any real, pressing need to change things. Life is good for them (believe me, I know). For them, every adult in the household has a car, so, no need to take public transit. Every house is secure with walls and razor wire, so no fear of threats to personal security. All their jobs have perqs a-plenty (6 weeks holidays, private health insurance, susbsidised car loans, etc.) And when it all gets too much for them, why a quick jaunt to Miami or Toronto cures what ails you (which they can do easily, since obtaining a visa isn't as hard for them as for everyone else.)

Ok doke. When I retire wit' me spouse to she yad' fair nuff. She got a likkle bit o lan inna country y'unnastan? An dey don like da nastiness wa appen inna kingston. Swa shame dey do dat stuf but inna country people care for each oddur. Knawamean broddurman?

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chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 04:03 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Hey now, CB... let's not be letting their hate-filled "spiritual leaders" totally off the hook here, eh?
Sorry H., but I have been to the churches in the Yad' and I have been given more friendship than I have ever had in Canada as an Indian whose country this is. Sure they are patriarchial, but in the country, they are more loving and frienly and more open to difference then you might imagine. People know of those who are gay and lesbian, and they are part of the church. Yes, they are not free to be completely open in that society, but the small churches protect them. This is a society in massive struggle, and you should not imagine all churches are as cruel as some of those in the developed world.

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Hinterland
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posted 03 October 2005 04:03 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ok doke. When I retire wit' me spouse to she yad' fair nuff. She got a likkle bit o lan inna country y'unnastan? An dey don like da nastiness wa appen inna kingston. Swa shame dey do dat stuf but inna country people care for each oddur. Knawamean broddurman?

Eh-heh. Me unnastan. Unu lucky. If me hava chance fi live ina country, me probably still be in Jah.

[ 03 October 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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Hinterland
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posted 03 October 2005 04:08 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
People know of those who are gay and lesbian, and they are part of the church. Yes, they are not free to be completely open in that society, but the small churches protect them.

Not always and just don't count on it. Most of the religious views I heard there were really of the usual, "lost souls" or "repent sinner" variety. Just because Jamaicans have all kinds of other struggles to face, CB, doesn't mean that can't be criticised.


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chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 04:08 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
And why do you assume that it is a male backlash against their single mothers which is responsible for their attitudes of male dominance?

It's not a backlash, per se. It's a natural part of growing up when you distance yourself from your parents. The lack of good male role models exacerbates that problem. There is no dearth of information, anecdotal or research-based, regarding the marginalised role of men in Caribbean society. The men quite often argue that they are being marginalised, but that strikes me as typical male whining.


This is the same argument that the entire white supremecist Canadian culture used to seperate Aboriginal children from their culture. Another argument for white supremacy against the colonized aboriginal race. Damn it. Damn it.

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Hinterland
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posted 03 October 2005 04:10 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Look, if you're just going to read everything I write about this as a reflection of my white privilege, don't bother. You can't guilt me into that; it doesn't work on me.

[ 03 October 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 04:10 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Eh-heh. Me unnastan. Unu lucky. If me hava chance fi live ina country, me probably still be in Jah.
Say, comma visit us one day brudda man, ya?

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chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 04:12 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Look, if you're just going to read everything I write about this as a reflection of my white privilege, don't bother. You can't guilt me into that; it doesn't work on me.
Why don't you try to figure out what part of your analysis comes from your white privilege.

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Hinterland
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posted 03 October 2005 04:13 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Call me by my preferred preferred Jamaican name: "Likkle white fat battybwah!"

[ 03 October 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 04:16 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dag, las' tim' me inna yad, dey call out "ya, dat what man he stout cha" an me embarras yes
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Hinterland
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posted 03 October 2005 04:22 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why don't you try to figure out what part of your analysis comes from your white privilege.

I'm not talking about cultural differences that I don't understand, CB, although there are those that I clearly don't. I'm addressing dysfunction, in terms of marginalised males, violence and homophobia.

I don't offer solutions, I'm not making value judgements (aside from calling it dysfunction), I'm not absolving myself of any blame (although I'm not taking on any, either, because, in this case, my family left Europe before the English slave-trade had even begun) and...I'm not Jamaican. You should try and have this discussion with the power brokers of Jamaican society and see what kind of analysis you'll get, if you manage to get an honest analysis at all.


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Hephaestion
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posted 03 October 2005 04:37 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CB--

For beginners, I didn't write this:

quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

And why do you assume that it is a male backlash against their single mothers which is responsible for their attitudes of male dominance? etc. etc.


And secondly, like anything else, I'm sure there are some "spiritual leaders" in Jamaica who are exceptions to the rule. But I also know what Brian told me about Jamaica, including the number of times he was denounced and villified by "men of Gawd", not only for being gay himself, but for daring to be the founder of JFLAG. Brian thought the fact that he held dual citizenship (Jamaican-Canadian) would help protect him. It didn't. I will always wonder if the work he was doing on trying to help that poor kid who was attacked at the instigation of his own father was what led to his horrific murder. And sure, it's not *just* the churches, but I apportion a BIG chunk of the blame on them, as they so enthusiastically fan the flames of hatred toward LGBT people.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 04:48 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
I'm not talking about cultural differences that I don't understand, CB, although there are those that I clearly don't. I'm addressing dysfunction, in terms of marginalised males, violence and homophobia...I don't offer solutions, I'm not making value judgements (aside from calling it dysfunction), I'm not absolving myself of any blame (although I'm not taking on any, either, because, in this case, my family left Europe before the English slave-trade had even begun) and...I'm not Jamaican. You should try and have this discussion with the power brokers of Jamaican society and see what kind of analysis you'll get, if you manage to get an honest analysis at all.
Ok, pal, look I'm not giving you the hard time, except every time that one who has a little knowledge of a colonized group, whether it be indians, west indians, east indians, whatever - it always comes down to a reductionist analysis of the dysfunctional family or such and a complete lack of analysis of the historic culture of colonialism. Same old. Tough. Sorry, older White people than you made the shit and they are not around to fix it. Same here in Canada, and nobody wants to fix it. So feel guilty. If it will get a drink for me I'll go for it.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
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posted 03 October 2005 04:50 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
But I also know what Brian told me about Jamaica, including the number of times he was denounced and villified by "men of Gawd", not only for being gay himself, but for daring to be the founder of JFLAG. Brian thought the fact that he held dual citizenship (Jamaican-Canadian) would help protect him. It didn't. I will always wonder if the work he was doing on trying to help that poor kid who was attacked at the instigation of his own father was what led to his horrific murder. And sure, it's not *just* the churches, but I apportion a BIG chunk of the blame on them, as they so enthusiastically fan the flames of hatred toward LGBT people.
Heph, I weep for your friend. Dam. I will smudge for him, I promise.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 03 October 2005 05:13 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Ok, pal, look I'm not giving you the hard time, except every time that one who has a little knowledge of a colonized group, whether it be indians, west indians, east indians, whatever - it always comes down to a reductionist analysis of the dysfunctional family or such and a complete lack of analysis of the historic culture of colonialism. Same old.

First of all, are we in a competition to see who has the most/the least empathy or insight into the realities of an oppressed group that neither one of us is part of? I can certainly understand you having a much better understanding of white colonisation with regards to aboriginal culture in Canada, but I'm not convinced that that, in itself, gives you greater authority to speak on the oppresssion of an entirely different people altogether (whose legacy is forced deportation, then slavery, then racist colonisation, not mostly settler colonisation like in Canada.)

To be quite honest, as a French-Canadian, I also have my own insight into some aspects of being a colonised people (although, clearly, within the Canadian context, that doesn't compare to the gravity this issue holds for aboriginal people)

quote:
Tough. Sorry, older White people than you made the shit and they are not around to fix it. Same here in Canada, and nobody wants to fix it. So feel guilty. If it will get a drink for me I'll go for it.

My guilt will not do anyone any bit of good (and it won't get you a drink, either). My actions, or better, my staying the hell out of people's way when they come up with their own ideas on how they will be self-determining will likely be a lot more helpful.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 03 October 2005 05:19 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CB, Brian would be the *first* to say, "Don't weep for me; change the damn system!" Brian lived a relatively comfortable life-- the people that broke his heart and that he worked so hard for were the many, many LGBT kids who lived in terror of being found out by their families, and the adult LGBTs who blundered around in an alcohol/drug stupor because they couldn't handle how fucked up their lives were.

But it's not just the homophobia, like Hint said, it's the corruption, the inequality, the grinding poverty, the crime... it's just such a huge, daunting task to try to set things right. Gawd, it's so depressing. Jamaica could be such a paradise, and we've turned it into such a hateful, disgusting shithole.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
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Babbler # 10025

posted 03 October 2005 05:45 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
First of all, are we in a competition to see who has the most/the least empathy or insight into the realities of an oppressed group that neither one of us is part of? I can certainly understand you having a much better understanding of white colonisation with regards to aboriginal culture in Canada, but I'm not convinced that that, in itself, gives you greater authority to speak on the oppresssion of an entirely different people altogether (whose legacy is forced deportation, then slavery, then racist colonisation, not mostly settler colonisation like in Canada.)
Sorry, I am not pretending to have any understanding of Jamaican culture. I am merely relying on my spouse's knowledge as a Jamaican midwife and cultural worker of many years. I have had the opportunity to visit relatives in Jamaica a few times, and I have many Jamaican relatives in Canada, US and England. Otherwise, I only speak from what she has taught me.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 03 October 2005 05:47 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
But it's not just the homophobia, like Hint said, it's the corruption, the inequality, the grinding poverty, the crime... it's just such a huge, daunting task to try to set things right. Gawd, it's so depressing. Jamaica could be such a paradise, and we've turned it into such a hateful, disgusting shithole.
Heph, my family has been in turmoil for the past month after the murder of my brother in law, so I can surely understand your grief for your friend. I shall smudge for him.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 03 October 2005 06:09 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Sorry, I am not pretending to have any understanding of Jamaican culture. I am merely relying on my spouse's knowledge as a Jamaican midwife and cultural worker of many years. I have had the opportunity to visit relatives in Jamaica a few times, and I have many Jamaican relatives in Canada, US and England. Otherwise, I only speak from what she has taught me.

I understand. I don't pretend to know everything about Jamaica (I really only entered this discussion to talk about homophobia, which I observed quite closely while I lived there), but I did more than just be a compounded expat. I tried to get out of the Kingston as much as I could. I liked hanging out in small bars chattin' away with people for hours; I avoided the tourist areas like the plague (I just loved it when people thought they could confide in me on how disappointing Jamaica was outside the all-inclusives; boo and hoo), I loved, loved, loved the pace of life (you always have more time to do something) and the sublime weather, and, for all its problems, Jamaica is an uncomparably beautiful country.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 03 October 2005 06:17 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
for all its problems, Jamaica is an uncomparably beautiful country.
Peace out, bro.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
blake 3:17
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10360

posted 03 October 2005 06:28 PM      Profile for blake 3:17     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Jamaica's "gay rights stance" is that gays don't *have* bugger-all rights.

Isn't it the right to bugger?

I was appaled by seeing that JFLAG has it's address asecret due to the threat of homophobic attacks.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged

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