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Author Topic: Yet another Israel-Lebanon thread (VI)
Michelle
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posted 07 August 2006 03:40 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Please continue here.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 07 August 2006 08:42 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So -- the long awaited UN (France and the US) proposal for peace in our time has been inked. As near as I can tell, it asks nothing of Israel. Here is Fisk's take:

quote:
Robert Fisk:

This draft shows who is running America's policy... Israel

Published: 07 August 2006

So the great and the good on the East River laboured at the United Nations Security Council -and brought forth a lemon. You could almost hear the Lebanese groan at this draft resolution, a document of such bias and mendacity that a close Lebanese friend read carefully through it yesterday, cursed and uttered the immortal question: "Don't these bastards learn anything from history?"

And there it all was again, the warmed-up peace proposals of Israel's 1982 invasion, full of buffer zones and disarmament and "strict respect by all parties" - a rousing chortle here, no doubt, from Hizbollah members - and the need for Lebanese sovereignty. It didn't even demand the withdrawal of Israeli forces, a point that Walid Moallem, Syria's Foreign Minister - and the man the Americans will eventually have to negotiate with - seized upon with more than alacrity. It was a dead UN resolution without a total Israeli retreat, he said on a strategic trip to Beirut.

A close analysis of the American-French draft - the fingerprints of John Bolton, the US ambassador to the UN, were almost smudging the paragraphs - showed just who is running Washington's Middle East policy: Israel. And one wondered how even Tony Blair would want to associate himself with this nonsense. It made no reference to the obscenely disproportionate violence employed by Israel - just a sleek reference to "hundreds of deaths and injuries on both sides" - and it made only passing reference to Hizbollah's demand that it would only release the two Israeli soldiers it captured on 12 July in return for Lebanese and other Arab prisoners in Israeli jails.



From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stanley10
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posted 07 August 2006 09:08 PM      Profile for Stanley10     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe it was called a “surrender document”.
Some might come to the conclusion that it is not meant to be acceptable to both countries.

From: the desk of.... | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Chairm
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posted 08 August 2006 01:43 AM      Profile for Chairm   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
the previous discussion was not being dragged off topic.

Judging by the title of the thread, the topic appeared to be focused on Israel-Lebanon today rather than the war of 1967.

quote:
you assert [...] that Israel gets "right of possession" of the Golan Heights, because they were attacked in 1967.

I have said that Israel occupies Syrian territories. The "right of possession" and the "because" are your additions to my actual words.

quote:
you are actually avoding dealing with uncomfortable facts of how Israel came into possession of this piece of property

I have not avoided the facts relevant to Lebanon-Israel today:

Golan heights is Syrian territory.

The Hezbollah is not a sovereign state sharing a border with Syria.

If Lebanon and Syria seek a change in their mutual border, they can negotiate that change.

The Lebanon government has not devolved its authority to initiate/settle border disputes.

Israel did withdraw behind the certified Lebanon-Israel border.

Syria can produce mutual borders with Israel, through negotiation of peace terms. Egypt and Jordan have shown this can be done.

The Syrian has not produced new borders with Lebanon.

quote:
you insist on making this point a corner stone of your arguement on the subject of Sheba farms, which is integral to the discussion at hand.

Granted, some people have used the Hezbollah claims on Syrian territory as an excuse for the Hezbollah attacks over the certified border between Lebanon and Israel. Indeed, the Hezbollah have used this fig leaf as the corner stone of its own existence.

How the origins of the war of 1967 are directly relevant this discussion, apart from Hezbollah's excuse-making, is up to others to explain more clearly.

Maybe it boilsdown to the yawning taunt: Israel is a big meannie.

No sleight of hand, and no amount of bluffing, can improve the poor hand you (Clueball and company) have been dealt.

And a point of order: Please do not try to put words into my comments that I did not use.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Chairm ]


From: n/a | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 August 2006 02:06 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wrong on fact again. Egypt accepted its borders prior to the 1967 war. It was unconditional.

Jordanian annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by the United Kingdom, and certainly not by the UN. Jordan's occupation was illegal as well. It is not as if when Jordan reliquished its claim in 1987 it was giving it to Israel. There was no such deal.

All Jordan did was give up its illegal and unrecognized claim in favour of the Palestinian claim over the West Bank, and recognized the Palestine Liberation Organization, as "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people."

There is no reason that Syria should not expect a return of all of its territory, as by these two examples.

Syria has offered these terms: An official peace agreement and recognition of Israel within the borders it held prior to 1967: Israel will not relent.

quote:
There are several convincing reasons why Israel should reject the peaceful Syrian hand. First of all, Syria should come to the negotiation table without any preconditions. When Assad proved evil enough to accept this, Israel demanded that Syria stop it alleged support for "terrorism" (and accept the Israeli-American definition of terrorism, to include resistance to occupation). Fair enough: both sides, except the Israeli side, should come to the negotiation table without any preconditions. Imagine Syria demanding that Israel end its occupation, or just dismantle its death squads, as a precondition to resume peace talks.

Then we are told that president Assad is young and inexperienced. A problem indeed. A good solution would be to reject his offer for a few more decades of hostility, when all our "experts for Arab issues" will be able to claim safely that he is too old to change, and/or that his days are counted. Then we can wait for his successor, hopefully a young and inexperienced one.


The Syrian Threat

As for the general thread of your preverication:

If Hezbollah believes that Sheba farms belongs to Lebanon it makes sense that they would attack the people who are occupying it not the people who also claim it but do not occupy it.

How stupid do you want your Arabs? They are to carry on the dispute with the a country that is not occupying their land.

Is that it?

quote:
The dispute over the sovereignty of the Shebaa Farms resulted in part from the failure of the French Mandate administrations, and subsequently the Lebanese and Syrian governments, to properly demarcate the border between Lebanon and Syria.

In the 1923 Anglo-French Demarcation Agreement, which set the borders between the British and French mandates in Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon, the area was included in Syria.[4]

Documents from the 1920s and 1930s indicate that some local inhabitants regarded themselves as part of Lebanon, for example paying taxes to the Lebanese government, but that French officials often expressed confusion on the actual location of the border.[3] One French official in 1939 expressed the belief that the uncertainty was sure to cause trouble in the future.


Shebaa Farms

Syria also has a claim against a little bit of Turkey. Does that also belong to Israel because Nasser said belicose things?

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 08 August 2006 09:43 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Siren, I find that thread title quite humourous as it's completely backwards.

quote:
This draft shows who is running America's policy... Israel

Lil backwards in the form that Israel is America's proxy state.... The draft shows that America is running Israeli policy (not the other way around).

Funny enough, the Russians will ultimately come to the aid of Lebanon stating 'It will not agree to anything the Lebanese gov't does not accept'. Geez, I'm agreeing with Russian foriegn policy


quote:
The Lebanon government has not devolved its authority to initiate/settle border disputes.

The Hizbollah, as an elected part of the Lebanese Gov't, took initiative to end the dispute apparently. After the previous occupation and fallout, the Lebanese Gov't was rendered incapable of any authority in this region (Israel did a tremendous job of ensuring such... The same way right now they are ensuring Lebanon is a crippled state for years to come, mind you I don't think you consider Lebanese citizens people, so I guess thats moot). Hizbollah was providing the gov't infrastructure for the entire Southern Shi'a dominated region (CNN has actively stated that Hizbollah is a Gov't/support agency first and a military second... Oh wait, these are terrorists aren't they?). Bombing and eliminating Hizbollah includes destroying every last school/hospital/library/Food agency in the area as well as the military wing. In Beirut, bombing Hizbollah 'strongholds' includes bombing food distribution agencies that are..er.. were.. distributing food to the refugees from the south. It's also included bombing factories of all kinds, ranging from sugar processesing plants to fruit pickers. Israel isn't eliminating Hizbollah, they are currently involved in an all-out war with the people of southern lebanon.


quote:
Maybe it boilsdown to the yawning taunt: Israel is a big meannie.

I think it boils down to Israel having created this problem and has learned absolutely nothing from the past and is ensuring the cycle repeats yet again. Chairm, are you sure you're not a CNN media corespondant? You're doing an excellent job of regurgitating what American media constantly broadcasts (word for word to Lou Dobbs at one point... The guy who argued with Arabic embassadors wondering where the 'Arabic nations sense of decency' was as the US blocked all Lebanese attempts at an immidiate ceasefire).

Just war related yap:

Israel has dropped a bunch of leaflets in Tyre:

quote:
BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- The Israeli military dropped leaflets Tuesday over the southern Lebanese city of Tyre, warning of stepped-up operations and urging people to stay off the roads or risk being a target.

(from here
You all must evacuate, but not in your cars because we'll bomb them you dirty terrorists!!! I love how Israel is able to get away with tactics like this.

Israel is still mulling about the full out invasion it seems... Olmert is on record as calling a 15k soldier invasion of Lebanon 'interesting'. When that occours, I think it'd be time to upgrade 'invasion' to 'occupation' and we should see the real insurgency style tactics step in. I'm curious how many casualties it'll take before the Israeli people realize this is a repeat of 2000? The Hizbollah drove out Israeli occupiers once with no more weapons than bombs... I doubt the Israeli occupation of Lebanon in 2006 will be any more successful.

Maybe Israel will be successful in eliminating the Hizbollah and it's ~ 400k supporters? Refresh my memory... How many Lebanese Shi'a need to die before it's considered genocide again?

Added:
Theres been a lil bit of a media shift recently and I've seen much more open reporting of what the Hizbollah actually are (and not the assosication that Hizbollah and Al Qaeda are the same thing). Mind you, they keep insisting Al Qaeda was operative in Iraq prior to the invasion... But they can't correct all of their misinfo's in one day now can they?

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 08 August 2006 11:13 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Have to do some more digging... But doctors without borders were doing a CNN interview out of Tyre recently. Aside from the obvious 'this appears to be a city under seige' analogies they made, there was one interesting side comment he made.

Apparently Israel was assaulting a town to the south east of Tyre... The assault was thwarted and turned back by Hizbollah militia. There are varying reports coming from this and IDF admits atleast 3 IDF soldiers were slain in a 'conflict in Southern lebanon'. This would now make a few sources reporting that the Hizbollah have claimed victories over certain portions of the IDF invasion. This goes in pretty stark contradiction with most of us saying that Israel would win several smaller battles early on, but take heavier losses as the invasion becomes an occupation... Hizbollah seems capable of standing up to the IDF even moreso than estimations originally suggested.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 08 August 2006 01:47 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Noise:
]Siren, I find that thread title quite humourous as it's completely backwards.

I'm sure you know this but just for the record: I didn't write the thread title. Israel and the US are inseparable in foreign policy, but hard to say which one is top dog -- b4 Bush America was always on top....

quote:
Harper praises proposed UN Mideast resolution
Updated Sun. Aug. 6 2006 11:19 PM ET


Canadian Press

SURREY, B.C. -- Prime Minister Stephen Harper is praising a UN agreement aimed at achieving a ceasefire in the Lebanon conflict.

Harper says the UN proposal, drafted by the U.S. and France, requires both Hezbollah and the Israelis to halt their attacks but gives Israel the right to retaliate if Hezbollah renews its rocket assaults.

"We're pleased to see that the United Nations appears to be moving towards a resolution calling for a ceasefire,'' Harper said during a visit Sunday to an Indo-Canadian cultural festival in suburban Vancouver.

He said the draft resolution is unlike the unilateral ceasefire advocated by the Liberal and NDP opposition parties.

"This is a ceasefire that reflects the position of the government of Canada as expressed in the G8 declaration that there are conditions necessary for a ceasefire on both sides to have a lasting peace,'' said Harper.

During an appearance at the Gadri Babiyan Da Mela Punjabi festival in suburban Vancouver...




I wonder if Sparky has actually read the document. Guess Peter MacKay is still in the dog house and not allowed to speak on anything related to his cabinet position.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 08 August 2006 02:01 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chairm:
Syria can produce mutual borders with Israel, through negotiation of peace terms. Egypt and Jordan have shown this can be done.

Egypt and Jordan didn't posess valid legal claim to one third of the state of Israel fresh water supply, which is what's under the Golan.

Frankly, the water is worth more to Israel than the peace.

Your argument, above, that Syria has had equal possibility of a peace deal with Israel and has somehow failed to take advantage of it is absurd.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 08 August 2006 02:07 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know Siren, was getting a laugh out of how backwards it was though


quote:
"This is a ceasefire that reflects the position of the government of Canada as expressed in the G8 declaration that there are conditions necessary for a ceasefire on both sides to have a lasting peace,'' said Harper.

Fortunately Canada has absolutely no sway or power within this event (so very thankfully). Harper obviously hasn't read the treaty he's commenting on ^^. So far the only power that seems to have some straight headedness is Russia, who will wait for Lebanon to say yes or no. Is Lebanon demanding repriations from Israel (hehe, the money'll come from the US) to repair vital infrastructure seem like it's too far out of the picture?

I think Harper also see the Canadian lack of influence here and is just happily smiling and nodding, supporting whatever his southern pupeteers tell him he should.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 08 August 2006 05:39 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rabble article by Nader Hashemi

Good article and dares to look upon a bigger picture.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 August 2006 09:11 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hizbollah Unprovoked?
quote:
Since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of the "blue line" between the two countries. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns.

In October 2000, the Israel Defence Forces shot at unarmed Palestinian demonstrators on the border, killing three and wounding 20. In response, Hizbullah crossed the line and kidnapped three Israeli soldiers. On several occasions, Hizbullah fired missiles and mortar rounds at IDF positions, and the IDF responded with heavy artillery and sometimes aerial bombardment. Incidents like this killed three Israelis and three Lebanese in 2003; one Israeli soldier and two Hizbullah fighters in 2005; and two Lebanese people and three Israeli soldiers in February 2006. Rockets were fired from Lebanon into Israel several times in 2004, 2005 and 2006, on some occasions by Hizbullah. But, the UN records, "none of the incidents resulted in a military escalation".

On May 26 this year, two officials of Islamic Jihad - Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub - were killed by a car bomb in the Lebanese city of Sidon. This was widely assumed in Lebanon and Israel to be the work of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency. In June, a man named Mahmoud Rafeh confessed to the killings and admitted that he had been working for Mossad since 1994. Militants in southern Lebanon responded, on the day of the bombing, by launching eight rockets into Israel. One soldier was lightly wounded. There was a major bust-up on the border, during which one member of Hizbullah was killed and several wounded, and one Israeli soldier wounded. But while the border region "remained tense and volatile", Unifil says it was "generally quiet" until July 12.



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 August 2006 09:26 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Answers to these questions and more are to be found in political scientist Stephen R. Shalom's Q & A:

Doesn't Israel have the right to defend itself?

But can any country accept having rockets raining down on its citizens?

Are you comparing Hezbollah's indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets, where the intention is to kill civilians, with Israel's attacks on military targets where sometimes civilians are unintentionally and regrettably killed?

Doesn't Hezbollah place its fighters and its weapons amid civilians, making Hezbollah -- and not Israel -- responsible for any civilian deaths?

Didn't Israel provide warning to Lebanese civilians?

Hasn't the UN Security Council ruled that the Shebaa Farms area does not belong to Lebanon and that Israel has fully withdrawn from Lebanese territory? Hasn't the issue of the Shebaa farms just been concocted by Hezbollah to justify its continued attacks on Israel?

Aren't the Lebanese prisoners still in Israel guilty of horrible atrocities? Why should these people be released?

How can there ever be peace as long as Hezbollah retains its arms? Hasn't the Security Council demanded that all militia groups in Lebanon be disarmed?

Didn't Israel withdraw from Gaza as the first step in giving the Palestinians a state?

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 08 August 2006 09:27 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know if this is the place to post this or not.... it was plastered onto an article about Harper's accepting the help of a Liberal mid east expert, Kahn.

But following M. Spector's post on the blue line, I think we need to make a bit of a stink as to what/who Hezbolla are.

quote:
Hezbollah flags focus of dispute

The MPs' trips come as Canadians are becoming more involved in the Lebanese situation. On Tuesday, Yair Goldwasser, the brother of an Israeli soldier captured by Hezbollah was in Toronto as part of the launch of a Jewish group's fundraising campaign to help Israelis threatened by Hezbollah rockets.

Hezbollah has been officially classed as a terrorist group in Canada since 2002, and is banned, making it a crime to join or give it material support.

Yet many Lebanese- and Arab-Canadians are openly declaring their support for the group, which they see as protecting their homeland.

Now B'Nai Brith wants police to crack down on Hezbollah supporters by arresting people who fly the group's flags at protests, which has occurred across Canada in recent weeks.

"I've got a message to them. They are making an open statement, I'd suggest to them they are being watched," said B'Nai Brith lawyer Anita Bromberg.

Wrzesnewkyj said that the MPs should meet backers and members of the political wing of Hezbollah because they are players in any peace deal in Lebanon.


Surely if Canadians can fund raise for Israel & the IDF, other Canadians can fund raise for Lebanon & Hezbollah? But not if they're officially designated a terrorist group....

Gawd Harper, this is why we ask immigrants to leave their politics at home and try not to get involved.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 August 2006 09:43 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And so the proto-fascist thought police, with the help of their sycophants in B'Nai Brith, will seek to forbid expressions of support for Hizbollah or any other organization that they decide to proscribe.
quote:
Originally posted by siren:
Gawd Harper, this is why we ask immigrants to leave their politics at home and try not to get involved.
What the hell does that mean? Who's "we"?

If this was ironic, I don't get it.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 08 August 2006 09:54 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, it wasn't ironic but in retrospect I wish I hadn't posted it.

What I mean is that I really don't like the politics of hatred and division -- one group of Canadians monitoring another, threatening them with legal action (the B'nai Brith lawyer), ancient animosities and new affronts played out on Canadian streets, the inevitable (but I hope I'm wrong) shooting of one another as per the Seattle incident...

Harper should have been a good canadian PM and offered support where needed and objective level handed criticism also where appropriate -- not take sides in the conflict.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 08 August 2006 10:06 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I reject any suggestion that "we" should be demanding of immigrants from, say, Lebanon, that they should "leave their politics at home" and refrain from protesting against Israel here in Canada.

I hope that's not what you were saying.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stanley10
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posted 08 August 2006 10:37 PM      Profile for Stanley10     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Quote:
"I've got a message to them. They are making an open statement, I'd suggest to them they are being watched," said B'Nai Brith lawyer Anita Bromberg."

Ah shucks! I guess I'll have to throw out my old "Che" t-shirt. These are truly unusual times- everything is being zip-locked. I do miss the 60-70's.

[ 08 August 2006: Message edited by: Stanley10 ]

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: Stanley10 ]


From: the desk of.... | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 August 2006 08:39 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some useful data on Israeli ethnic cleansing.

quote:
This fundamental fact has been acknowledged by a long line of Israeli officials and intellectual defenders of Israel, who have admitted, sometimes regretfully, that to "redeem the land" occupied by Palestinians in favor of the "chosen people" would require systematic expropriation and associated killing and forced transfer.

Back in 1948, David Ben-Gurion was clear that "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Fifty years later, in 1998, Ariel Sharon made the same point about the centrality of ethnic cleansing in Israeli policy: "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." On May 24, 2006, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a joint session of congress that "I believed and to this day still believe, in our people's eternal and historic right to this entire land." Despite these and numerous other statements along the same line, [15] the Western elites pretend that Israel's expropriations and ethnic cleansing are not the basic (and profoundly immoral) causal force in the struggle over Palestine, and in a Kafkaesque mode it is the Palestinian resistance to their ethnic cleansing that is to be condemned.


The title of the article by Edward S. Herman is Ethnic Cleansing: Constructive, Benign, and Nefarious (Kafka Era Studies, No. 1).


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 09 August 2006 08:53 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by siren:
...threatening them with legal action (the B'nai Brith lawyer)...

I've read his op-ed pieces in the Globe, and if his abilities in the courtroom are on par with his ability to construct a supported argument, b'nai brith is a paper tiger.

I've rarely been less impressed with the coherence of a putative law-school grad.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 09 August 2006 09:02 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well, I reject any suggestion that "we" should be demanding of immigrants from, say, Lebanon, that they should "leave their politics at home" and refrain from protesting against Israel here in Canada.

I realize we can never pass a law forbidding immigrants from importing their conflicts with them, but i personally find all of the following phenomena NAUSEATING:

Croatian and Serbian Canadians fighting in Mississauga over who did what to whom in Yugoslavia.
Turkish and Greek Canadians fighting in Canada over who did what to whom in Cyprus
Tamils in Scarborough raising $$ for the Tamil Tiger terrorists
Irish catholics funneling money to the IRA
Arab and Jewish Canadians carrying the Arab-Israel conflict to Canada.

etc...etc...etc...

IMHO, the whole point of moving to Canada OUGHT to be to leave these these silly internecine ethnic conflicts behind and instead become citizens of a pluralistic multicultural society.

I have my views on the situation in the Middle East, but i would never be caught dead at a pro-Israel demonstration and if anyone ever asked me to donate any money to any pro-Israel cause my answer would be "DROP DEAD!"


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 09 August 2006 09:07 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Last night CNN surprised me with one of it's debates. I wish I could recall the names, but we had a Jewish Harvard graduate (who's been through the previous 'war' with Lebanon) and a Lebanon born diplomat (I think perhaps emmisary)... And the debate that those 2 had were great. I was quite surprised not only by the guest selection, but by Larry King actually interjecting and allowing both sides to talk (I've watched someone like Lou Dobbs pull off a similar interview and he spends the whole time bashing the Arabic representative).

The one point that really caught me was the accusation that Lebanon now backs Hizbollah around 90% (I think they quoted 87%) and from it, it's now Lebanons war vs Israel (Lebanon was actively supporting 'terrorists'). He made accusations (which are very true, it's nice to see an ex-Israeli IDF come to these conclusions) that the support for hizbollah comes from the citizens entirely and without this support Hizbollah would be disabled. How do you destroy Hizbollahs arms, when the arms themselves are sitting in the basements of half the citizens of Lebanon? This goes back to Israel not being at war with a terror organization, they are at war with th Southern half of a nation.

Theres been a big policy shift with above in mind. Israel is seeing the ceasefire drawing, and as such they are running out of time to achieve their success (elimination of Hizbollah, from what I've seen, there is no victory to be claimed, just varying degrees of success). As such, theres a new general and a new plan rolling in. Maj-Gen Moshe Kaplinsky is now at the helm... And he'll lead a full charge to the Latani river.

The Arabic nations of recent have shifted exceedingly as well. The first statements from them were widely condemning Hizbollah for it's role... But Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt have drastically shifted their stance. My read... 3 reasons:

1. Israels tactics have so far only succeeded in strengthening Hizbollah. Hizbollah is a thorn in the side for these nations and they don't want Hizbollah around any longer... But they obviously can't align themselves with tactics that are strengthening the thorn.

2. General destruction of Lebanon... The Lebanese infrastructure has been blown to peices and the rebuild effort will not be easy. The Israeli, despite attempts, have targetted many things that is viewed they should have (like hitting a marked ambulance right in the middle of the red cross with a percision bomb). The Arabic nations are feeling pressure from their citizens due to events like these.

3. Testing the water (mebbe a lil bit of a conspiracy/escalation story here). This is most evident in ceasefire negotiations now... They are much more adamant that Israel withdraw all troops on Lebanese soil (shift from original stance). I think theres somewhat of an Arabic sense (which you get when looking at whats coming out of their media) that Hizbollah is standing it's ground very well vs the Israeli invaders... And given a full Israeli assault, Hizbollah may end up winning more battles and driving off an occupational force with the Guerilla tactics Nasrallah is well known for. Along with this, Hizbollah has claimed a few scattered victories that no general in his right mind could forsee (I think they caught the IDF off guard, especially in Bint Jbiel). Pushing and testing the IDF percieved invincibility in the region could very well be on the these Arabic nations agenda.


Interesting read on the media war... Specifically what Hizbollah has had to resort to to keep it's lines of media going.

And the BBC's take on what the Arab world reports.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 09 August 2006 09:16 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
On May 24, 2006, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a joint session of congress that "I believed and to this day still believe, in our people's eternal and historic right to this entire land."

Ripped from its context, the above quote leaves an impression completely the opposite of what Olmert actually told US lawmakers. He goes on to say:

quote:
Painfully, we the people of Israel have learned to change our perspective. We have to compromise in the name of peace, to give up parts of our promised land in which every hill and every valley is saturated with Jewish history and in which our heroes are buried. We have to relinquish part of our dream to leave room for the dream of others, so that all of us can enjoy a better future. For this painful but necessary task my government was elected. And to this I am fully committed.

http://tinyurl.com/zo7do

Don't we as babblers have an obligation to accurately present facts, especially on such an emotionally charged issue?


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 August 2006 09:29 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
from the same speech ... Olmert: Israel must still meet the momentous challenge of guaranteeing the future of Israel as a democratic state with a Jewish majority, within permanent and defensible borders and a united Jerusalem as its capital. ..

...in violation of international law. What the hell do you think "a Jewish majority" means? It means a territory ethnically cleansed of Palestinians enough to ensure a permanent Jewish majority and suitable for occupation.

Olmert is a war criminal. Sharon is a war criminal. And Israel is, even according to Israeli Human Rights organizations, in establishing "two tiered" laws in regard to human rights, mimicking the despicable apartheid state:

quote:
As the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem states, "Israel has established in the occupied Territories a separation cum discrimination regime, in which it maintains two systems of laws, and a person's rights are based on his or her national origin. This regime is the only of its kind in the world, and brings to mind dark regimes of the past, such as the Apartheid regime in South Africa."

From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 09 August 2006 10:44 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
...in violation of international law. What the hell do you think "a Jewish majority" means? It means a territory ethnically cleansed of Palestinians enough to ensure a permanent Jewish majority and suitable for occupation.

A Jewish majority means 50% plus one. Most countries have ethnic majorities and this is not in and of itself a violation of international law. Holland is majority ethnically Dutch, Poland is majority ethnically Pole, etc.

International law does require ethnic minorities to be treated equally under the law. Israel has not fully lived up to this obligation even within its own borders, but it's hardly unique among nation states in this failure.

B'Tselem is correct in describing the human rights situation IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES as apartheid-like. That's why a political settlement of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is so imperative.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 09 August 2006 10:49 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by John K:
A Jewish majority means 50% plus one.

Given the diverging birthrates, this status will not long attain, even in Israel.

Arab-Israelis have way more children that Jewish Israelis, and even Jewish immigration can't compensate.

So something discriminatory will have to be done in order to maintain the Jewish majority.

That's partly already underway, in the Israel decision a year or so ago to deny non-jewish israeli's the right to obtain residence permits for a non-citizen spouse, of their children.

This is designed to harass arab Israeli citizens into giving up their citizenship if they marry 'citizens' of the OT, for instance.

However, that won't be enough to alter things much: harsher measure are inevitible, unless Israel becomes a secular state.

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 09 August 2006 11:03 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1 million israeli arabs and 5 million jewish arabs, with much more jewish immigration, and you say the arab population will eventually supersede the jewish population?

You need to assume the birthrates will remain the same forever to do that.


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 09 August 2006 11:15 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:

You need to assume the birthrates will remain the same forever to do that.

Poverty is the driver of birthrate. WHat are the odds that arab Israelis will attain economic parity with Jewish Israelis inside Israel?

Not high, I'd wager--that's another game that's fixed.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 09 August 2006 11:19 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In common with Lebanon, Israel is certainly more democratic and secular than most of the Islamic Republics surrounding it.

Moreover, Jews are likely to remain a majority in Israel proper for the forseeable future.

Here are a few basic facts on Israel's demography:

quote:
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, as of May 2006, of Israel's 7 million people, 77% were Jews, 18.5% Arabs, and 4.3% "others"

Of the Jewish population:

quote:
Roughly 12% of Israeli Jews defined as haredim (ultra-orthodox religious); an additional 9% are "religious"; 35% consider themselves "traditionalists" (not strictly adhering to Jewish Halakha); and 43% are "secular" (termed "hiloni").

Of Arab Israelis:

quote:
Among Arab Israelis, 82.6% were Muslim, 8.8% were Christian and 8.4% were Druze.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis

Using erroneous information often leads to the drawing of faulty conclusions.

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: John K ]


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 August 2006 04:56 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I made the claim on another thread that Hezbollah had support in the range of 90% and was challenged on the claim by Stockholm. I found the link.

quote:
As Robin Wright of the Washington Post put it on Larry King: "A staggering poll last week -- in a country with 17 different recognized religious groups, 87 percent said they backed Hezbollah, which is unprecedented in the history of Lebanon." Even more ominous for Israeli -- and American -- interests, Israel's all-out approach is bringing together the traditionally divided religious factions in the country, with 89 percent of Sunnis, 80 percent of Christians, and 80 percent of Druze siding with the Shia terrorists of Hezbollah.

Interesting, and repulsive, that the commentator would consider it "ominous" that the Lebanese would stick together in the face of an invasion. If some greater military power than Canada invaded and bombed this country, wouldn't it be patriotic for Canadians to stick together in the face of a such an interloper? Not in the world of the true believer and Israeli apologist, apparently; the Lebanese should get on with the business of killing each other, for the benefit of Israel, so that Israel can get on with the business of killing those who dare to resist Israeli bombing and atrocities. Even the "critics" of Israel in the USA look like fundamentalist zealots. Buchanan is just a little to the right.

Nevertheless, the numbers are there: 87% support for Hezbollah. I think I wrote "around 90%" in the other thread. mea culpa.

Huffington Post

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 09 August 2006 05:28 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all I'm sceptical of how a poll could be conducted at all in a war zone where lines of communication have broken down.

Secondly, Hezbollah probably has has spies everywhere who will kill you on the spot if you don't say "yes, we LOVE Hizbollah"

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 August 2006 05:48 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Saturday, July 29, 2006
Editor's note: In an attempt to gauge the mood of the country after nearly two weeks of Israel's latest assault on Lebanon, the Beirut Center for Research and Information queried 800 citizens regarding Hizbullah's July 12 capture of two Israeli soldiers, the resistance's military operations against Israel and the American position on the crisis. Respondents were also asked to assess the Lebanese government's performance on the diplomatic front and its handling of relief efforts. This survey was conducted by Lebanese statistician Abdo Saad between July 24 and July 26 according to confessional and regional distribution, including the opinion of the displaced in the regions of emigration.

The survey consisted of direct questions concerning respondents' position regarding Hizbullah's role in the conflict.

The answers to the first question showed a relatively high level of support for Hizbullah's capture of two Israeli soldiers, contrasting the positions of some local political forces' condemnation of the operation. Such support was based on a belief that Israel and the US intended to implement UN Security Council Resolution 1559 by force, regardless of whether Hizbullah carried out the July 12 raid.

Moreover, the results show the majority of Lebanese believe the only way to liberate Lebanese detainees in Israeli prisons is through the capture of Israeli soldiers and a prisoner swap, as was the case in 2000.

The survey showed near-identical numbers as an earlier survey, published by As-Safir on March 2. That survey showed 70.9 percent support for Hizbullah operations to capture Israeli soldiers.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb

However, while 59 percent of the Druze community in March supported such operations, only 40 percent now express such support.

Christian support for capture operations rose from 48 percent to 55 percent, due likely to the Free Patriotic Movement's memorandum of understanding signed with Hizbullah.

The survey showed 87 percent support for Hizbullah's retaliatory attacks on northern Israel . Such a high level of support must be attributed to Hizbullah's political and military performance, in addition to a national consensus identifying Israel as Lebanon 's main enemy.

The survey suggests that Hizbullah's military performance has bolstered confidence in the resistance's abilities as 63 percent of respondents expected a Hizbullah victory over Israel .

The survey showed that a large majority of Lebanese do not consider the US to be an honest mediator (89.5 percent). A similar survey conducted by the Beirut Center for Research and Information published in As-Safir on January 31 showed 38.2 percent support for the US role in Lebanon. This drop is due to the close political cooperation between the US and Israel .

Meanwhile, the majority of respondents were unsatisfied with their government's performance on the diplomatic level (64.3 percent) and relief efforts (54 percent).


Clearly, contrary to the ravings of Stockholm, it would be impossible for Hezbollah to threaten Druze and Christian respondents to a survey. On the one hand, says the implacable opponents of Hezbollah, that organization only has a tiny support in Lebanon, a minority; on the other hand, this tiny minority is apparently able to threaten the entire population that responds to a survey.

It's only a little way from such remarks as those by Stockholm to barefaced racism.

Disdain for the democratic will, or opinion of the people, whether it is the Palestinian people electing Hamas to represent them, or the opinion of ordinary Lebanese in support of the patriotic efforts of Hezbollah to defend their country, there is a common thread of antagonism by Israel and its supporters to the democratic will of any population that dares oppose it. What better proof of tyranny?

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
zizou
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Babbler # 12901

posted 09 August 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for zizou     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Secondly, Hezbollah probably has has spies everywhere who will kill you on the spot if you don't say "yes, we LOVE Hizbollah"

no, that wouldn't be hezbullah you're talking about... that would be the israeli military who are killing (and maiming, terrorizing and displacing) the lebanese. and in the current context, growing support for hezbullah among the populations of not only lebanon, but syria, palestine and beyond comes as a surprise?

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: zizou ]


From: amandla al-intifadah - amandla al-awdah | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 09 August 2006 06:36 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Disdain for the democratic will, or opinion of the people, whether it is the Palestinian people electing Hamas to represent them, or the opinion of ordinary Lebanese in support of the patriotic efforts of Hezbollah to defend their country, there is a common thread of antagonism by Israel and its supporters to the democratic will of any population that dares oppose it. What better proof of tyranny?

Part of the reason that US credibility around the world is at an all time low is exactly for the reason cited above.

And prior to this conflict, Hezbollah was not even the largest political force in Lebanese politics representing the Shia Muslim community. Amal under Nabih Berri actually won one more seat in the 2005 general election.

In this respect, Israel's collective punishment campaign is certainly strengthening Hezbollah politically even if it weakens it militarily.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Chairm
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posted 09 August 2006 06:54 PM      Profile for Chairm   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Your argument, above, that Syria has had equal possibility of a peace deal with Israel and has somehow failed to take advantage of it is absurd.

The two states did negotiate. The negotations failed. Both Israel and Syria failed to take advantage of the opportunities. The disagreement did involve the shore of the Gailea and that disagreement was mutual; but the failure of coming to terms was not based on a dispute about Shebaa Farms.

* * * *

quote:
The Hizbollah, as an elected part of the Lebanese Gov't, took initiative to end the dispute apparently.

The Lebanon government expressly agreed to the UN certified border. Israel then proceeded to fulfill its obligation to withdraw behind its northern border with Lebanon.

Later, an armed political faction, by virtue of its strength of arms alone, and, taking what was not devolved to it, ursurped the unitary government's authority on that border.

* * * *

quote:
Syria also has a claim against a little bit of Turkey.

Would that authorize the Hezbollah, or another non-sovereign proxy, to attack Turkey?

It looks like your argument is that the Hezbollah is fighting Syria's battles for it. If that is the case, then, you are overplaying the hand dealt to you.

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: Chairm ]


From: n/a | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Chairm
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posted 09 August 2006 07:07 PM      Profile for Chairm   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I said:

quote:
Syria can produce mutual borders with Israel, through negotiation of peace terms. Egypt and Jordan have shown this can be done.

In apparent disagreement, someone else said:

quote:
Egypt accepted its borders prior to the 1967 war. It was unconditional.

[...] It is not as if when Jordan reliquished its claim in 1987 it was giving it to Israel. There was no such deal.

There is no reason that Syria should not expect a return of all of its territory, as by these two examples.


The peace treaties that Eygpt and Syria made with Israel both expressly produced mutual borders of sovereign neighbors, as I said earlier.

quote:
If Hezbollah believes that Sheba farms belongs belongs to Lebanon it makes sense that they would attack the people who are occupying it not the people who also claim it but do not occupy it.

How stupid do you want your Arabs? They are to carry on the dispute with the a country that is not occupying their land.


I do not think they are stupid.

But apparently you offer the view that there is no other alternative to explain the approach which would have a political faction within one sovereign state -- an armed faction with no authority to initiate/settle a border dispute -- to attack another sovereign state for the alleged goal of exacting a change in the border with a third sovereign state.

I think the approach you defend is stupid because it is a self-defeating excuse. But I do not think that "Arabs" are stupid. In Syria, the regime is acting out of self-interest. The Hezbollah are acting out of self-interest that is in tandem with Syria's support -- which ties the Hezbollah to Syria's self-interest.

You seem to be inching toward admitting as much.

quote:
Syria has offered these terms: An official peace agreement and recognition of Israel within the borders it held prior to 1967: Israel will not relent.

Syria offered peace, for now, but not a comprehensive peace. It lost ground in a war. Neither Israel nor Syria have yet found it necessary to change the status quo. The regime in Syria has domestic reasons to not pursue comprehensive peace with its sovereign neighbor. In Israel, public opinion makes it very difficult to give up the Golan Heights even though its military value has diminished, and would diminish greatly with a comprehnsive peace. The perception of mutual deterrence is a factor for both countries in the longheld and rather quiet stand-off along their shared border.

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: Chairm ]


From: n/a | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 09 August 2006 07:38 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just out of curiosity, why do you do you suppose it is that when Syria controlled the Golan Heights prior to 1967 and Israel did not occupy one single solitary square inch of Syrian territory - all Syria saw fit to do was to lob endless missiles and shells at Israeli farmers?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 09 August 2006 07:49 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that's a rhetorical question.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 09 August 2006 08:28 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Just out of curiosity, why do you do you suppose it is that when Syria controlled the Golan Heights prior to 1967 and Israel did not occupy one single solitary square inch of Syrian territory - all Syria saw fit to do was to lob endless missiles and shells at Israeli farmers?

Rhetorical question, my forked tail.

Moshe Dayan admitted that the capture of the Golan was largely for it's value as a bargaining chip and to satisfy pressure from kibbutzim along the border for the high quality agricultural land therein. This is Dayan's description of the military conflict along the Golan during his tenure as Israeli Minister of Defense:

quote:
I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plough someplace where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was.

This was Dayan's impression of the "beleaguered" kibbutzim dwellers:

quote:
They suffered a lot because of the Syrians. Look, as I said before, they lived in the kibbutzim, they farmed, raised children, lived and wanted to live there. The Syrians opposite them were soldiers who shot at them and they certainly did not like this. But I can tell you in absolute certainly: the delegation that came to convince Eshkol to attack the Heights did not think about these things. It thought about the land on the Heights. Listen, I am also a farmer. I'm from Nahalal, not from Tel Aviv, and I recognize this. I saw them, and I talked to them. They did not even try to hide their greed for that soil. That's what guided them.

Amos Eran was quoted in the Washington Post on May 12, 1997 on the subject of Dayan's reported "regret" over the seizure of the Golan. Eran said, "Dayan didn't want the government to allow the kibbutzim to build there afterward -- he hoped to trade it back for peace."

Don't you know anything?!?

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 10 August 2006 06:56 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In order to preserve the image of Israel's "moral purity," Israel's top officials and leading sycophants have devised a complex -- and highly revealing -- set of rationalizations for the mounting number of Arab corpses.

1. Phase one of Operation Israeli Innocence could well be summed up in three words: "Hezbollah did it."

quote:
Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz. After the Qana massacre. Dershowitz argued, "By launching rockets at Israeli civilians within yards of a building filled with refugees, Hezbollah had induced Israel to make a terrible mistake. Its defensive rocket had missed the Hezbollah launchers and hit the civilian building." He then intoned, "As Israelis wept in grief over the deaths of the Lebanese children, Hezbollah leaders celebrated. . . ."

or, in a similar tone, ...

quote:
Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman, who let loose his theories on the Security Council just a day earlier: "I would not be surprised if Hezbollah made [the victims] stay. We are dealing with a ruthless, cynical, cruel enemy, one of the most monstrous terror organizations that this world has ever known."

and then we have ...

quote:
Israel's outsourcing of blame for its own bombings flowed onto the pages of its most "cosmopolitan" daily, Ha'aretz. Commentator Nadav Shragai opined, "In the tragic events of Qana, Hezbollah intentionally set itself up in the heart of civilians, thereby deliberately creating the conditions that led to the disaster." The self-righteous conclusion followed predictably: "Hezbollah, like Palestinian terror, harms women and children with malice in a systematic fashion. We do it rarely and by mistake."

Get it? Hezbollah did it. Problem is, Hezbollah didn't do it. And the Israeli whitewash admitted as much.

quote:
There is, however, one slight problem with the "Hezbollah did it" line: Hezbollah didn't. Israel's military investigation into Qana revealed that -- lo and behold -- "the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence there of Hezbollah men at the time." The bombed site was "included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site," but "there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike." In one swift blow, then, Dershowitz's assertions about Qana collapsed like a Lebanese apartment bloc: the Israelis didn't "miss" Hezbollah launchers, they targeted the building; Hezbollah didn't "induce" the Israelis to fire, it was not even present.

Haaretz on Qana attack

quote:
In the formal Human Rights Watch report just released, observers found no evidence of Hezbollah activity in the 24 examples of Israeli killing documented by the organization: "[T]he location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the [civilian] deaths because there was no Hezbollah around." These findings would not surprise Lebanese Red Cross drivers, the top of whose trucks, emblazoned with the cross symbol, have literally been used as targeting reticules by the world's "most moral army."

Phase 2. "What civilians?" Kill 'em all!

quote:
Operation Israeli Innocence continues into its more sinister stage, Phase Two. If the first phase was an argument that Hezbollah use civilians as human shields, the second phase posits that civilians use Hezbollah as human shields. In Phase Two, the Arab civilians no longer appear as mere pitiful creatures abused by evil terrorists; they are an active and complicit component of the terror, hiding behind a false civilian label. This phase can be whittled down to two words: "what civilians?"

So that, for example,

quote:
Israel's "justice" minister Haim Ramon, who said on July 28, "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah."

Read the entire article at MRZine.

Save the Arabs! Exterminate the Arabs!


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 10 August 2006 07:42 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yesterday marked the heaviest Israeli military casualties in one day (15) and I beleive at the rate the fighting is going at, we'll see that record shattered quickly.

With all the rhetoric flying around, theres a good portion who still beleive that the Hizbollah are simply a few terrorists running around out there... When a more accurate representation put Hizbollah (without the aid of the Lebanon military) around the 4th or 5th strongest in the region.

Interesting possiblity... But if 12-15k Israeli reserves enter southern Lebanon, and the 15k Lebanese army deploys in the region (as per the ceasefire agreement), and the 3-5k Hizbollah soldiers, and the 5k-20k 'Hizbollah village reserves'... Thats alot of troops in a small area.

With the recent general change for Israel along with sudden progress in the ceasefire talks... Israel has a very small window to launch a full scale invasion. CNN had reporters saying hundreds of Israeli troops were crossing into southern Lebanon, so I get the feeling the invasion has already long begun (despite IDF insistance it still hasn't).

How many Israeli soldiers will die before:
A) The population of Israel realize their fighting what could easily be a losing battle
B) The international community rejudges Hizbollah/Lebanese capabilities
C) The Arab community realizes that the invincible Israeli army can be defeated by the Hizbollah... The 4th or 5th strongest military in the region.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 10 August 2006 10:01 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Israeli authorities are reporting that 3333 Hizbollah rockets have now rained down upon Israel (interesting number?)... Along with this number comes estimates of Total rockets to start, total fired upon Israel, and total destroyed/seized by Israel. Pending who you ask, the number destoryed/seized is far less than the number that has hit Israel... We'll use one half as a decent estimate.

Total - used - destroyed = reminaing... Total estimates are around 18k as an accepted figure, although there has been arguements that it's lowballing totals. Mind you, there are also estimates thats a high number.

18k - 3333 - 1700 ~ 13k rockets remaining. In 1 month, they've expended ~ 5k out of 18k. That'd put them at 25-30% of munitions expended during a 1 month period. Assuming the ratio remains steady, that gives us and additional 3 or so months that the Hizbollah can continue the rocket assault that they currently are.

That is excluding possible resupply from Syria/Iran, and a recent report suggests the Israeli's have captured an Iranian revolutionary guard operating within Hizbollah forces. Gets into brittle ground for Israel mind you... They want to present the world with the view that Iran is immidiately supporting Hizbollah (which would mean they'd show the world this prisoner), but they'd also want to garner as much info as possible from said agent (which would include torture/interigation... That they wouldn't want to show the world). Curius which route Israel will take with this... If this is the last we here, they either never captured a Iranian Guard, or he was slain in the interogation process and is best left under the radar.

Still trying to find word on the 15k force that Lebanon proposed putting in to enforce a ceasefire... It looks like they may send the force regardless (CNN reporters make that reference).

The UN ceasfire is going to stand still no anyway... The US knows that US soldiers won't be welcome and France knows that they'll likely be the largest contributors and likely head the force. So the US insists it's huge and sent in now during hositilites, and France suggests a smaller force sent in after the ceasefire has taken effect (with full Israeli withdrawl). Thats going no where anytime soon. Moot anyway, today/tomorrow this will be a full scale invasion and a full scale war.

[ 10 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

Just adding since it's not worth another post:

quote:
"I have a special message to the Arabs of Haifa, to your martyrs and to your wounded: I call on you to leave this city. I hope you do this. ... Please leave so we don't shed your blood, which is our blood," Nasrallah said.

This is a sticky point when it comes to military analysis... This war is very one way in the form that its fought solely on Lebanese soil. Other than rockets, Israeli soil has been battle free during this and most past conflicts.

Does Nasrallah really have the capability of invading Israel in response?

[ 10 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 August 2006 01:12 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When a calm thinker like Chomsky says "maybe" or "soon" then we all shoud pay close attention.

Apocalpyse near? Apocalypse soon?

Chomsky notes the two events, a day apart, of the kidnapping of two Gaza civilians, Osama and Mustafa Muamar, by Israel and the capture of an Israeli soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit by Palestinian fighters.

quote:
"The paired events, a day apart, demonstrate with harsh clarity that the show of outrage over the Shalit kidnapping was cynical fraud. They reveal that by Western moral standards, kidnapping of civilians is just fine if it is done by "our side," but capture of a soldier on "our side" a day later is a despicable crime that requires severe punishment of the population.

quote:
What is the next chapter in this middle-eastern conflict as you see it?

"I do not know of anyone foolhardy enough to predict. The US and Israel are stirring up popular forces that are very ominous, and which will only gain in power and become more extremist if the US and Israel persist in demolishing any hope of realization of Palestinian national rights, and destroying Lebanon. It should also be recognized that Washington's primary concern, as in the past, is not Israel and Lebanon, but the vast energy resources of the Middle East, recognized 60 years ago to be a "stupendous source of strategic power" and "one of the greatest material prizes in world history."


further, ...

quote:
"The results could be truly apocalyptic. And even in tiny Lebanon, the leading Lebanese academic scholar of Hizbullah, and a harsh critic of the organization, describes the current conflict in "apocalyptic terms," warning that possibly "All hell would be let loose" if the outcome of the US-Israel campaign leaves a situation in which "the Shiite community is seething with resentment at Israel, the United States and the government that it perceives as its betrayer.

"It is no secret that in past years, Israel has helped to destroy secular Arab nationalism and to create Hizbullah and Hamas, just as US violence has expedited the rise of extremist Islamic fundamentalism and jihad terror. The reasons are understood. There are constant warnings about it by Western intelligence agencies, and by the leading specialists on these topics.

"One can bury one's head in the sand and take comfort in a "wall-to-wall consensus" that what we do is "just and moral" (Maoz), ignoring the lessons of recent history, or simple rationality. Or one can face the facts, and approach dilemmas which are very serious by peaceful means. They are available. Their success can never be guaranteed. But we can be reasonably confident that viewing the world through a bombsight will bring further misery and suffering, perhaps even 'apocalypse soon.'"


Terrible horrors. That's what 21st century imperialism or capitalism offers the world as spiritual wisdom. The leading figures of the leading countries offer this. I will take door number 2, which is socialism, or door number 3, which is something else yet again, rather than the death spiral of US imperialism. Any public figure, even and especially a Prime Minister, deserves to be made unemployed by too close an association with the USA and its terrible policies.

[ 10 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic2
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posted 10 August 2006 02:08 PM      Profile for Polunatic2   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the previous thread:
quote:
Second, that's a PALESTINIAN militant, not Hizbollah. But I guess it's easier just to lob all arabs with guns into one undifferentiated mass and say "look, look at the craven, cowardly savages!".
Stockholm seems to be doing it.

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Noise
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posted 10 August 2006 02:44 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mebbe we should be paying more attention to Palestinians anyway:

BBC backs up some of the statements in N.Beltovs link to Chomsky's interview.
(eddited a few times to get this dang link to work. Apparently I can't spell URL)

quote:
The war in Lebanon and northern Israel should not distract attention from events in Gaza, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has warned.
The killing of civilians, including children, in Gaza was "utterly unjustifiable", his spokesman said.

Three people died in an Israeli strike on Wednesday, including a little girl.

Israel began operations in Gaza on 28 June after the capture of its soldier, Cpl Gilad Shalit. Palestinians say more than 170 people have been killed.

'Two-state solution'


On Wednesday Mr Annan expressed fears that the war in Lebanon and northern Israel could overshadow events in Gaza and "the urgent need to work towards a solution to the current crisis in the occupied Palestinian territory".

"The continued killing and injuring of hundreds of civilians, including children, in Gaza, by Israeli forces is utterly unjustifiable," spokesman Stephane Dujarric added.

He voiced particular concern about the "arbitrary arrests" of senior Palestinians including Aziz Dweik, the Palestinian parliamentary speaker detained by Israel on Sunday.

This "further undermines the Palestinian institutions which must be preserved if a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to be achieved", he said.

Mr Annan also reiterated his call for an end to rocket attacks by Palestinian militants firing from Gaza into Israel, and urged renewed dialogue.


[ 10 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


While I'm at it, BBC does a bit of an analysis on the recent Hizbollah statement:

quote:

The televised address was clearly designed to send a message to the Israelis and the wider world - namely that Hezbollah remained a coherent, strong and unbroken organisation.

He urged the Lebanese to remain steadfast and united in the battle against Israel, and warned the Lebanese government against making any concessions to Israel and America.

Snip

He said the aim behind the UN resolution was to enable Israel to achieve by diplomatic means what it had failed to achieve on the battlefield.


A major concern is Nasrallah will be able to follow through on his most recent threat and turn southern Lebanon into a massive zionist graveyard when the full scale attack comes. The statement and conviction shows Hizbollah hasn't been weakened much as of yet...

Though he still hasn't carried through with the Tel Aviv threat as of yet.

[ 10 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

And once last BBC article to end the spam ^^ I won't quote from it, but it's comments on the 'Americanization' of the Israeli military are quite insightful (though repeating Haartz previous articles)... Israeli troops aren't trained on a full ground invasion anymore and rely on simply pushing a button to blow their opponents into peices. How well can they possibly fare vs well trained guerillas exceedingly versed in their home terrain?

[ 10 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 10 August 2006 05:18 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm having a "you've GOT to be kidding me!" reaction. I decided to look up the total number of Hezbollah rocket attacks on Isreal, and found a useful site which helpfully catalogue all hezbollah attacks from a pro-israel POV.

I was astonished at what I found. Here's the total number of ROCKET attacks, culled from this list, between June 30 2006 and May 2000:

Hezbollah Terrorist [Rocket] Attacks Since May 2000

quote:
27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

21 Nov 2005 - An attempt to kidnap an IDF soldier was foiled when paratroopers patrolling near Rajar village discerned a Hezbollah unit approaching. Private David Markovitz opened fire, killing all four. In a heavy attack of mortars and Katyusha rockets that ensued, nine soldiers and and two civilians were injured.

7 May 2003 - Hezbollah attacked IDF positions in the Sheba' farms with heavy rocket, mortar, and small arms fire. One Israeli soldier was killed and five others were wounded in the attack. Lebanese authorities asserted that the Hezbollah firing had been preceded by an Israeli army foot patrol crossing the Blue Line.

22 Mar 2003 - Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli army positions in the Sheba' farms and adjacent areas. This attack followed eight incursions into Lebanese airspace by Israeli aircraft.


Got that? The constant hail of rockets we've been hearing about consisted of FOUR incidents, which left a total of ten Isreal soldiers dead & six wounded, as well as two civilians killed. All attacks were against military targets.

The pro-Israel folks have some 'splainin' to do, cuz that's NOT what they've been telling us has been going on.

[ 10 August 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 10 August 2006 09:41 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Russia dramatically intervened in the struggle to reach a UN deal on Lebanon last night, tabling a proposal for a 72-hour humanitarian ceasefire on the grounds the crisis was too desperate to wait on more wrangling between the US and France.
"This diplomatic activity is not being conducted in a quiet academic environment," Russia's UN ambassador Vitaly Churkin said in New York. "War is raging in Lebanon, and the humanitarian situation is getting catastrophic."

He said that his draft resolution had the support of Kofi Annan, the UN secretary general, and he hoped it would "focus minds" and "energise politicians and diplomats". Mr Churkin said he wanted a vote on it today.

The unexpected move broke an emerging consensus on the security council, and came amid signs that a compromise hammered out by the US and France during the day yesterday had been rejected by the Lebanese government, which includes representatives of Hizbullah.

The latest draft resolution calls for a phased Israeli withdrawal, to be replaced by a 15,000-strong Lebanese army force, supported by the existing 2,000-strong UN force, Unifil, and possibly advance elements of a new international force; it might include troops from Spain, Germany, Italy and Austria, according to an Israeli TV report.

But diplomats said Lebanon objected to the idea the foreign forces would be granted the right to use force, under chapter 7 of the UN charter, rather than simply act as peacekeepers. Israel had refused to withdraw troops unless they were replaced by a strong international force.

Russia's plan and Lebanon's objection threatened to create an awkward situation for Margaret Beckett, the foreign secretary, who broke off her holiday in France and was due to arrive in New York late last night for what she had hoped would be the final round of negotiations. Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, was also prepared to come, her spokesman said.


The Guardian: Russian attempts at urgent ceasefire


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 11 August 2006 08:39 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A very interesting claim came across today... Hezbollah TV reported Friday that Hezbollah forces destroyed an Israeli gunboat off the coast of Tyre, killing or wounding the crew of 12 (AP, quote is at a few news outlets)

And of course, the IDF is denying this claim. This is an interesting one as it's highlighting the Hizbollah's potential abilities. Katushya rockets against a naval target is... well, dumb. I think we've got to make the assumption (if this Hizbollah report is true) that the Hizbollah are firing more Iranian rockets at Israeli ships. Once again, before this war... This wasn't something the Hizbollah were thought capable of.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2006 09:15 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Israel to USA: "Hurry up with those cluster bombs! We PROMISE not to kill TOO MANY civilians with them. Honest."

Mind you, Israel has already been found to have used these bombs against civilians in the LAST invasion of Lebanon.

quote:
WASHINGTON, Aug. 10 - Israel has asked the Bush administration to speed delivery of short-range antipersonnel rockets armed with cluster munitions, which it could use to strike Hezbollah missile sites in Lebanon, two American officials said Thursday.

The request for M-26 artillery rockets, which are fired in barrages and carry hundreds of grenade-like bomblets that scatter and explode over a broad area, is likely to be approved shortly, along with other arms, a senior official said. ...

The rockets, while they would be very effective against hidden missile launchers, officials say, are fired by the dozen and could be expected to cause civilian casualties if used against targets in populated areas ...

During much of the 1980's, the United States maintained a moratorium on selling cluster munitions to Israel, following disclosures that
civilians in Lebanon had been killed with the weapons during the 1982 Israeli invasion.
But the moratorium was lifted late in the Reagan
administration ...

Last month, the advocacy group Human Rights Watch said its researchers had uncovered evidence that Israel had fired cluster munitions on July 19 at the Lebanese village of Bilda, which the group said had killed one civilian and wounded at least 12 others, including 7 children. The group said it had interviewed survivors of the attack, who described incoming artillery shells dispensing hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village.

Human Rights Watch also released photographs, taken recently by its researchers in northern Israel, of what it said were American-supplied
artillery shells that had markings showing they carried cluster munitions. ...


[ 11 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 11 August 2006 02:57 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
First of all I'm sceptical of how a poll could be conducted at all in a war zone where lines of communication have broken down.

Secondly, Hezbollah probably has has spies everywhere who will kill you on the spot if you don't say "yes, we LOVE Hizbollah"

[ 09 August 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


Amazing these Hezbollah guys. Not only can they hold off the most well-equipped military in the region, they have the time and power to conduct a full-on ideological cleansing of Stalinist proportions without - as you allege - the aid of communications. I think you may be right - these guys really are some kind of supernatural evil...

BTW, Stockholm, are you in possession of anything resembling corraboration for this outrageous claim? Lemme guess, anyone who might speak out is already dead....


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
eau
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posted 11 August 2006 03:29 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Simon, appreciate your research. What has me nauseated is the use of LAND MINES by Israel. I wonder who manufactured those little gems, but then in this David and Goliath battle, whats another weapon to add to the F16s, Tanks, Drones etc..how could we possibly forget LANDMINES.

I have no time for extremists of either side, but if the children of Lebanon didn't have enough to deal with now they can add landmines to their struggle.


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N.Beltov
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posted 11 August 2006 03:35 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A key sticking point for Lebanon in any ceasefire is the demand that Israel provide the maps and locations of the (around) 30-35 thousand land mines in Lebanon. Furthermore, Israel hasn't given the full list from the last invasion of 1982-2000!
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 11 August 2006 03:53 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
whats another weapon to add to the F16s, Tanks, Drones etc..how could we possibly forget LANDMINES

Please don't forget cluster bombs either


Added:

CNN


quote:
War in 31st day
At least four people were killed and 40 others wounded when at least eight Israeli missiles hit a convoy of Lebanese Army and civilian vehicles, Lebanese security sources said. Of the 40 injured, 24 were Lebanese soldiers, security sources said. (Watch CNN's Michael Ware describe "a scene of appalling carnage" -- 2:24)

The convoy initially consisted of 80 Lebanese security force vehicles carrying more than 350 people, as well as about 100 civilian vehicles. Other civilian vehicles joined it later, officials said.


Video is a bit graphic... At least the one they showed on TV. I'm not sure what Israel is trying to do here... Provoke?

[ 11 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
venus_man
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posted 12 August 2006 07:42 AM      Profile for venus_man        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Finally some good news for Israel and Lebanon and the rest of the world:

quote:
The U.N. plan approved Friday night would create a peacekeeping force by combining a beefed-up version of the ineffective U.N. units already in the war zone and 15,000 soldiers from the Lebanese army. The force, which could number around 30,000, would stand between Israel and Hezbollah's militia.
...Cease-fire resolution calls for Hezbollah to disarm

[ 12 August 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]


From: outer space | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 12 August 2006 08:40 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The bad news is Israel is ignoring it and continueing it's drive to the litani river.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2006 08:53 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It would be a shame for there to be so much death and destruction all for nothing. If at least Israel can do the world a favour and rid the world of these murderous Hezbollah freak, people won't have died in vain.

Most of the Arab world is secretely rooting for Israel because te last thing they want is for Iran to get its tentacles into Lebanon.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
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posted 12 August 2006 08:59 AM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
It would be a shame for there to be so much death and destruction all for nothing. If at least Israel can do the world a favour and rid the world of these murderous Hezbollah freak, people won't have died in vain.

Most of the Arab world is secretely rooting for Israel because te last thing they want is for Iran to get its tentacles into Lebanon.


you have sources to back up these extraordinary claims of course...

I am reluctant to consent to Isreal's military and current Administration determining who is or is not Hezbollah.


From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 12 August 2006 09:07 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
and of course the concept of "collateral damage" means nothing to Hezbollah, because they beleiev that if you are Muslim and get accidentally killed by their acts of terrorism, you'll go to paradise.
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Stanley10
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posted 12 August 2006 09:32 AM      Profile for Stanley10     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hezbollah has been a form of government in southern Lebanon. With 15000 UN troops going in there it will be interesting to see if they can make a “one-state” solution work.
This may become a model for dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian problem if the UN Security counsel attains some kind of enlightenment.

From: the desk of.... | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 August 2006 02:22 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Most of the Arab world is secretely rooting for Israel because te last thing they want is for Iran to get its tentacles into Lebanon.

It's "Imagination Time" at Rabble.ca....


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 August 2006 02:25 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
and of course the concept of "collateral damage" means nothing to Hezbollah, because they beleiev that if you are Muslim and get accidentally killed by their acts of terrorism, you'll go to paradise.

More of Stockholm's penetrating insight into The Arab Mind....


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 12 August 2006 02:28 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
It would be a shame for there to be so much death and destruction all for nothing. If at least Israel can do the world a favour and rid the world of these murderous Hezbollah freak, people won't have died in vain.

Absolultely, Israel should move as quickly as possible to completely instrumentalise the deaths of hundreds of innocents to The Big Cause...


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2006 09:16 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
One month and a day after the start of the American-Israeli aggression against Lebanon, after the failure of that aggression and its inability to achieve its aims, after America's repeated use of stalling tactics, delaying expected sessions of the Security Council, and after numerous American drafts that were proposed and then retouched by France, it was the battlefield in the south of Lebanon and the noble resistance that have imposed a new reality hitherto unknown to Israel in all its long history of battle in the region and its many well-known wars. After attacks and retreats in every village in the south, after which the enemy claimed to have won some sort of victory or achieved some goal, the dust has cleared and it is obvious that the field is truly in the hands of the Islamic resistance that is defending, resisting, and inflicting losses and military casualties on the occupying enemy. This reality has exhausted America's excuses, its store of delaying tactics and its time.

The heroism of Hezbollah has stopped the child butchers of Tel Aviv. Who would have thought it? Yet, did not the Vietnamese people teach that lesson to the US and its client states already? Perhaps they never learn because they have no real faith in the people's indomitable will to resist such a despicable interloper as Israel.

quote:
The resolution, therefore, was the result of the steadfastness of the resistance forces and the people together. The question now is: how seriously will it be implemented? Will it be regarded as a first step or a temporary truce? Many questions could be raised if we look deeply into each paragraph of the resolution that was finally issued. But it is demonstrable that an agreement on this resolution would not have been achieved if all the means available to Israel to change the reality on the battlefield had not been exhausted ...

Resistance to further Israeli atrocities has led to a possible ceasefire. Hezbollah has made war-making too expensive for Israel. The noble Lebanese resistance will be remembered for years to come - and not just in Lebanon.

quote:

1. The agreement excluded the demand for Israel to be brought to trial under international law for the savagery of its aggression against the territory and people of Lebanon. Instead, the agreement condemned Hizballah as the instigator of the fighting, ignoring all of Israel's crimes and acts of aggression against Lebanon.

2. The agreement did not include a call for an immediate cease-fire but for a cessation of military operations. This means that the door is left open for Israel and its army to adjust themselves to the resolution and take whatever required military steps they believe to be appropriate according to joint Israeli-American needs.

3. In the agreement America makes a temporary tactical retreat following the failure of the aggression and its inability to achieve its aims, in an attempt to create a situation where it can take hold of what is going on and bring into play some of its well-known cards, such as the Lebanese internal situation.

4. The resolution ignores the matter of the prisoners; it leaves the subject of the Shabaa Farms area outside the discussion with the aim of possibly using that later in deals with regional players.

5. It is noteworthy that every point in the resolution that is in the interests of Lebanon is a preparatory point, a statement about something for which matters are to be prepared; while every point that is in the interests of Israel is a point for actual implementation.


What is to come?

quote:
The people and resistance of Lebanon have displayed their mighty steel will and we must now frustrate all attempts to gut and empty this patriotic victory of its contents on the military, political, economic, and social levels. Our central task must be to fortify and bolster Lebanese national unity, preventing any infiltration, reinforcing the legitimate confrontation with the on-going American-Israeli scheme against our homeland.

The remarks were from a statement by the Lebanese CP. It can be read over here at MRZine.

[ 14 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
venus_man
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posted 14 August 2006 10:25 AM      Profile for venus_man        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that Israel achieved what they’ve set to achieve. They cleaned southern Lebanon from the Hiz-h parasites, disrupted their military supplies, destroyed their infrastructure and made them much weaker. It is impossible to completely annihilate Hiz-h for they are hiding and that can cause even more civilian deaths. I therefore salute Israeli soldiers, and all the fallen ones, as well as Lebanese civilians who were covering the Hiz-h cowards.
From: outer space | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
eau
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posted 14 August 2006 11:01 AM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to your use of the word parasite?
From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
venus_man
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posted 14 August 2006 11:20 AM      Profile for venus_man        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here I used it in a sense that Hiz-h feeds of the Lebanese population while setting them up for war and destruction. It is something that is useless for the purposes of common good. It is when the parasite obtains benefits from a host which it usually injures. It is clear that Lebanese do not need Hiz-h on their soil anymore, and the UN resolution alongside Lebanese government’s decision to send troops proclaims just that. Hiz-h needs to be disarmed thus sending Iran a clear message-when hate someone, you are first of all hating yourself and you are the one who will suffer from it first and foremost.
From: outer space | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 August 2006 12:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gee, you have a lot of advice and inside knowledge about the needs of the Lebanese people.

Have you ever heard of something called "privilege."


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 14 August 2006 02:55 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It is clear that Lebanese do not need Hiz-h on their soil anymore, and the UN resolution alongside Lebanese government’s decision to send troops proclaims just that.

This is illogical. The UN Resolution proclaims nothing of the sort - it only manifests that the UN, and Israel, and the Lebonese government see some profit in trying to control Hezbollah. Whether or not the Shiite population of Lebanon want or need Hezbollah is up to them. Moreover, your position - besides being argued from a position of privilege - completely ignores Hezbollah's chief function in Lebanon. And that is a political and social organisation providing considerable infrastructure to the Shiite population. So it's complete bullshit for you to suggest that a Lebonese person doesn't "need" the hospitals that Hezbollah operates, or the schools, etc.

Treating Hezbollah as nothing more than an armed militia is to completely miss the reasons for their existence and the support they have in Lebonese society. We shouldn't buy into the Manichean picture of them as nothing but violent evil. In order to properly understand Hezbollah, and to influence them into doing what we might like them to do, they need to be treated as a complex social phenomenon with it's roots in the tattered state of Lebanon after Israel destroyed it in the 1980's. At that time, Hezbollah provided all the services the state of Lebanon could or would not. A UN Resolution won't change that and cannot uproot them from their position in Lebonese society. Frankly, Hezbollah isn't going anywhere, in spite of your over-confident appraisals of Israel's successes against them.

[ 14 August 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Noise
rabble-rouser
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posted 14 August 2006 03:08 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Venus, you're still basing your arguement on somethig compeltely different than the reality of what it's like out there. Hiz-h as you so nicely refer to it is still a political party drawing vast support from Lebanese citizens.

quote:
They cleaned southern Lebanon from the Hiz-h parasites, disrupted their military supplies, destroyed their infrastructure and made them much weaker.

You still don't seem to grasp basic concepts with that statement. Even the premise 'cleaning them out from southern lebanon' is competly untrue... More Hizbollah rockets fell on Israel than were captured/destroyed/stoped, and in the last day of fighting over 250 hit. Israel did very little to reduce Hizbollahs military capabilities with the exception of killing civilians that supported Hizbollah (unless you consider getting hit Hizbollah rockets a reduction in Hizbollah's arms)

quote:
It is clear that Lebanese do not need Hiz-h on their soil anymore

Perhaps you need to go over there and inform the Lebanese people that they need to stop voting for them then? Better be prepared for a long journey too, thats about 400k people that you need to explain 'You are a virus' to. Once again, plz do some research here, then mebbe your comments will reflect reality for a change. Admittadely your reality is much more happy.

-----

More realistically, it's looking like a best case scenario may occour. Nasrallah won't dare break the ceasefire (as his primary media weapon is 'Israel is doing this'), and Israel cannot go against the will of the international community without harsh reprecussions. So I beleive the Ceasefire will stand. Assuming that holds, the best case will be the Lebanese army moving in and the Hizbollah fully integrate into the Lebanese army and becomes a legit party (pretty much exactly what it is now, without the military capability).

The western world really needs to get to rebuilding Lebanon however. 2 reasons... A great sign of good faith to the Lebanese people. If the Hizbollah are the first to repair, they'll gain much more support within Lebanon. The second reason is to restrengthen the central Lebanese gov't. As was pointed out right from the begining, the only people capable of disarming Hizbollah is a strong Lebanese central gov't... If Hizbollah is allowed to cleanup more than the lebanese central govt, we'll be in the same situation within a matter of years.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2006 03:26 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
New and unknown deadly weapons have been used by Israel in the recent criminal invasion of Lebanon. Strange symptoms reflecting, perhaps, macabre experiments of future warfare have been reported.

quote:
Bodies with dead tissues and no apparent wounds; 'shrunken' corpses; civilians with heavy damage to lower limbs that require amputation, which is nevertheless followed by unstoppable necrosis and death; descriptions of extensive internal wounds with no trace of shrapnel, corpses blackened but not burnt, and others heavily wounded that did not bleed.

Evidence is being collected and the expertise of specialists in their field is being called upon: "We invite scientists to contribute to this effort by offering their specific competences. In particular we seek collaboration of toxicology experts, pharmacologists, anatomy pathologists, doctors with an expertise in trauma and burns, chemists." Professor of Genetics Paola Manduca of the University of Genova, Italy, is working on this.

quote:
Many of these descriptions suggest the possibility that the new weapons used include 'direct energy' weapons, and chemical and/or biological agents, in a sort of macabre experiment of future warfare, where there is no respect for anything:International rules (from the Geneva Convention to the treaties on biological and chemical weapons), refugees, hospitals and the Red Cross, not to mention the people, their future, their children, the environment, which is poisoned through dissemination of Depleted Uranium and toxic substances released after oil and chemical depots are bombed.

Extra SPECIAL Israeli atrocities. Is this the "new" Middle East?

[ 14 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 14 August 2006 03:43 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting Beltov, thnx for the link.

I should correct myself... Though the Hizbollah military is pretty much untouched (minus a month or so rations and munitions/5000 Katushya rockets), their civilian infrastructure (Hospital, Schools, social services, and food/aid distrubution) has been massively impacted. That, and with the majority of roads within Southern Lebanon destroyed, they have had a pretty significant infrasturcture hit. Though it'll still remain to be seen... Who builds the replacement roads/schools.

*Editted out unsure of source. Was talking about the cost of the war*... And from the estmiations, the biggest cost (not including life) goes to the US (hehe, I get a laugh from that) in the form of munitions/military aid spent bombarding Lebanese soil. Them artillery shells ain't cheap, let alone missiles and laser guided bombs.


-Source wasn't cnn. I'll try to find it

[ 14 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 August 2006 04:12 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At 3 billion in "assistance" a year, or more, I'm not surprised by a large financial cost to the US. Long term, however, the destroyed Lebanese infrastructure is going to take years and billions to repair/replace.

But most important of all are the lives lost and destroyed. The 1000 Lebanese dead will be a lot higher when the rubble is cleared and people are able to travel without being shot at from F-16's, Apache gunships, and so on, in the sky.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michael Nenonen
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posted 14 August 2006 06:23 PM      Profile for Michael Nenonen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venus_man:

"...when (you) hate someone, you are first of all hating yourself and you are the one who will suffer from it first and foremost.[/QB]


[ 14 August 2006: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
venus_man
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posted 14 August 2006 07:33 PM      Profile for venus_man        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What, you finding this statement untrue? You are implying that I hate Hiz-h? You are having doubts! Well perhaps learn to distinguish between hate and criticism. Hiz-h for me are nothing more then bunch of Nazis and as such are dangerous for society, any society. They are simply miserable and I do not have any hate for them. I wouldn’t mind if they would cease to exist, just because they are parasites, and to be one is not good for society, or any body. Learn to distinguish, my advice if I may.

Lebanese army, 15000 strong, is moving in to the south according to the UN resolution. I guess it is to keep the buffer zone clean of Hiz-h terrorists. Wise realization and move on part of the Lebanese government and here too Israel achieved its goal. UN resolution also calls for the Hiz-h to disarm. I do not think that this organization should have god’s name (or something that sounds like one) as part of its name, it is a blasphemy and just for that the Muslim world should perhaps put anathema onto them.
In regards to graphic death description…my gosh, it is sounds like a fetish, and it seems many Hiz-h admirers have that fetish. Images, detail descriptions… for what? It doesn’t sound companionate at all, not to my ear anyway. It is more like dead, cold stats, like- here is the meat. May be you should connect to Hiz-h leadership and ask them why they are promoting war and holding Lebanese as hostages while hiding behind their backs. And Iranian president is of the same bunch-ah, poor civilians, I care for them so much…while torturing his own people and restricting freedoms. Theatre, play, selfish interests with the price of human lives, the living shields. Senseless and shameful on my view.


From: outer space | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 14 August 2006 09:39 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Lebanese army, 15000 strong, is moving in to the south according to the UN resolution.

And what a force they are. But they'll have to politely ask Israel to give them their weapons back first.

I really don't know how to respond to a post so full of delusional fantasy. Frankly, it's kinda disturbing that you have so little grasp of reality. Hizb'allah is the army of Lebanon. It is the defense force against the terrorist Israeli state. They defeated the most powerful army in the M.E., and are now politically stronger than ever before. The Lebanese people, including Maronite Christians, consider Hizb'allah heros. So much for Israel.

I really wonder about the mental state of anyone who believes that Hizb'allah started this war, and that Israel is helpless to stop killing civilians, the only target their worthless, murderous, cowardly military could hit.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 August 2006 12:22 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venus_man:

Lebanese army, 15000 strong, is moving in to the south according to the UN resolution. I guess it is to keep the buffer zone clean of Hiz-h terrorists. Wise realization and move on part of the Lebanese government and here too Israel achieved its goal. UN resolution also calls for the Hiz-h to disarm. I do not think that this organization should have god’s name (or something that sounds like one) as part of its name, it is a blasphemy and just for that the Muslim world should perhaps put anathema onto them.



Blasphemers!

All well and fine, but Hexbollah is part of the government coalition that agreed to send the Lebanese army. I doubt there will be much disarming or anything going on.

They hold two or three ministers seats.

As if the government has seen the Israeli light now that they have been bombed a little bit and are going to rein in Hexbollah, Hah! Hexbollah is part of the government.

You seem to forget these little details when holding forth sagaciousously on what is good for the Lebanese people. You'd almost think you had no idea what you are talking about.

[ 15 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 15 August 2006 04:04 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The war against terror is now the main cause of new acts of terror, such as yesterday's airlines plot, whatever reality it turns out to have. What do we know about the sources of this kind of terror?

Take these words by an Islamic fundamentalist: “I still remember those distressing scenes: blood, torn limbs, women and children massacred. All over the place, houses were being destroyed and tower blocks were collapsing, crushing their residents, while bombs rained down mercilessly on our homes. . . . As I looked at those destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me to punish the oppressor in kind . . . so that it would have a taste of its own medicine and would be prevented from killing our women and children.”

This is Osama bin Laden, speaking of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, backed by the U.S. and its naval bombardments. It is his account of how he turned to the kind of terror that led to 9/11. There were, of course, other factors, including training of Islamic fighters by the U.S. in Afghanistan. You can make what you want of his report, but it would be foolish to ignore it.


Rick Salutin


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michael Nenonen
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posted 15 August 2006 07:16 AM      Profile for Michael Nenonen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venus_man:

"Well perhaps learn to distinguish between hate and criticism. Hiz-h for me are nothing more then bunch of Nazis and as such are dangerous for society, any society. They are simply miserable and I do not have any hate for them. I wouldn’t mind if they would cease to exist, just because they are parasites, and to be one is not good for society, or any body."


And, gosh, consider their sense of fashion!

Once again...

[ 15 August 2006: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Richard MacKinnon
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posted 15 August 2006 07:30 AM      Profile for Richard MacKinnon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Siddharth Varadarajan

When ISRAEL attacked Lebanon a month ago, it had two stated and two unstated military objectives. The stated objectives were the unconditional release of two of its soldiers captured by Hizbollah, and the physical destruction of the Lebanese resistance force, its leadership and command structure.

As for the unstated objectives, the first was to so totally degrade the civilian infrastructure of the country that the non-Shia population of Lebanon would turn against Hizbollah and the Shias for inviting the wrath of Israel upon them in this manner. And the second, to deny Iran and its supporters the chance of opening a second front against Israel from close quarters — in the event of American airstrikes on Iranian nuclear installations."

There are a number of things that lead me to agree that this conflict was about Israel degrading Hizbollah's military capabilities.
- America's history of softening up Iraq before formally declaring war.
- Finding out America was shipping bunker-busters to the region because Ireland refused to allow American transport planes to land there en route.
- Bush's repetitive comdemnation of Hizbollah.
- The White House's insistance that Britain reveal the plane bombing plot before the ceasefire even though it compromised the investigation.
- When's the last time we were told the truth about why a country goes to war?


From: Home of the Red Hill Concrete Expressway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 15 August 2006 09:25 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
- Bush's repetitive comdemnation of Hizbollah.

Bushes reality is as warped as Venus_man's anyway. The condemning he did was based on promoting democracy and freedom for his view of what the middle east should be... Which is funny if you consider Hizbollah is a pretty strong political party within Lebanon in the first place ^^. From Bushes standpoint, this is an attempt to redraw the geo-political map within the Middle East (The Arabic medias have been repeating this from day 1).


On Israel's goals... The 'unconditional' release of the 2 Israeli prisoners... Apparently there are negotiations going on which wuld include giving back Hizbollah captured soldiers and the bodies of fallen soldiers in exchange. Heh, completely obtained that goal hey?


I think the realities we'll see moving forward here:

Hizbollah will legitimize and integrate much more fully with the Lebanese gov't. I get the feeling their popular support is going to greatly rise as well, especially if Hizbollah is allowed to lead the reconstruction efforts. I really doubt the international support that will need to be there to rebuild on behalf of a central Lebanese gov't will occour... And ultimately it'll be 'The Party of God Contruction Company' that goes house to house repairing the damage the Israeli's caused.

Israel will have lost a couple things here... First, they've lost the status of as invincible army within the region. A much smaller and lesser equipped group took them on, and the only real damage Israel inflicted was to civilian targets, not military. May have a distant future impact. The second is some international reputation. There was alot of assumed support for Israel, and this conflict has made people do more research and question blindly supporting.

Syria/Iran can claim a minor victory themselves... Sryia in the manner they handled the refugees and avoided getting dragged into the conflict and Iran in the manner that Hizbollah's influnce has grown, therefore so will Irans. Iran will likely funnel cash to the Hizbollah rebuilding efforts to continue fueling their growth.

Only 2 major winners on this will be France and Russia... France is now seen in the most favorable light within the international community as the fair intermidiate capable of dealing with the Americans. Russia also made several steps towards supporting Lebanese and opposing American ambitions, which in todays climate opposing American imperialism will gain international support.

The USians managed to have their one sided foriegn policy exposed again and again, although most people are already awake to this. Their lack of power to do much in the region and the stretch they've put themselves into from the Iraqi war was exposed alot as well... Condi look really tired out there. I also noticed a bit of a media shift in a few outlets as well, at the start of this conflict there were a few things I thought they'd never say. Might as well comment on the UK here... Blair looked lost, repeated what Bush said a few times, then let a massive slip go (knowing about the invasion plans prior to the kidnappings)

Harper may have let his majority slip... Canadians have rising opinions on how we should appear on the central stage, and Harpers stance could easily be called pro-american as pro-Israel... Which is in harsh contrast to the more popular opinion that we should be a neutral morale voice that most Canadians seem to suggest. Whether or not that will translate into anything come a vote remains to be seen... It's possible we'll see a shift of support form the Jewish community that would balance any loss out.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
venus_man
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posted 15 August 2006 10:30 AM      Profile for venus_man        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Nenonen:

And, gosh, consider their sense of fashion!


Yes, and not just that- also their salutation! Hence, and not merely based of that, i am saying that Nazis and Hiz-h are all the same.


From: outer space | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Noise
rabble-rouser
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posted 15 August 2006 11:09 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
i am saying that Nazis and Hiz-h are all the same.

Heh wow you're amusing It pains me to no end to know that your vote means as much as someone not completely dillusional.


Added in

BBC shows Iran and Syria claiming victory, along with the US blaming Iran and Iran blaming the US. It seems everyside is claiming victory with the exception of the devastated nation (with the exception of the Bush admin that seem to think Lebanon is better off bombed to peices).

An excerpt from here echos what the Israeli's (and ultimately the US) has lost within the region:

quote:
(Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad ) He added that peace in the Middle East was not possible with the Bush administration in power in Washington.

"This is an administration that adopts the principle of pre-emptive war that is absolutely contradictory to the principle of peace," he said.

"Consequently, we don't expect peace soon or in the foreseeable future."

The defiant speech is the clearest sign of how US opponents in the Middle East have been emboldened by the outcome of the conflict, says the BBC's Jon Leyne in Damascus.

Mr Assad said there was no more need for defeatism among Arabs - a feeling echoed across the Arab world, our correspondent adds.


Israel and the US have lost their perceived invulneralbility in the region (the US from the mess in Iraq, and the Israeli's from this conflict here)... And from this, their opponents will be much more convicted and vocal, now that they know that ultimately, they can stand up to the US vision of the Middle East.

Not only in the show of power either... The world was very vocal regarding this conflict, and with the exception of US and it's chained followers (see Canada and UK), Israel really took a reputation beating.

[ 15 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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Babbler # 11427

posted 15 August 2006 01:35 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venus_man:

...i am saying that Nazis and Hiz-h are all the same.

DO you ever find it ironic that the Israelis left Europe to get away from the nazis, and within a few short years, found themselves surrounded by Nazis again? Every where you turn, there's Nazis!

Have you ever pondered why that might be?

Or do you figure it's nothing but a run of bad luck?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 15 August 2006 03:01 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
More from Al Assad:
quote:
Al-Assad warned Israeli leaders to give up on their "follies and arrogance" and work for peace.

"They should know that they are before a historic crossroads. Either they move toward peace and the return of (Arab) rights or they move in the direction of continued instability until one generation decides the matter," he said.

The fighting in Lebanon had been planned by Israel for some time, Al-Assad said, but the endeavor failed.

"The result was more failure for Israel, its allies and masters," he said.

Al-Assad defended Hezbollah and said Syria was proud to support it. He criticized a U.N. cease-fire resolution for holding the Syrian-backed militant group responsible for the violence.

"Israel is the one who is responsible," he said. He added that Israel's supporters in Lebanon -- an allusion to the anti-Syrian parliamentary majority in Beirut -- also bear responsibility.

"The resistance is necessary as much as it is natural and legitimate," he said.

Assad said this war revealed the limitations of Israel's military power.
snip

In a 1982 invasion of Lebanon, Israeli forces surrounded Beirut within seven days of invading, he said. "After five weeks it (Israel) was still struggling to occupy a few hundred meters."

"From a military perspective, it (the battle) was decided in favor of the resistance (Hezbollah). Israel has been defeated from the beginning," Al-Assad said. "They (Israelis) have become a subject of ridicule."

snip
The audience then broke into applause and shouts in praise of Al-Assad and Nasrallah. "With our blood, with our soul, we redeem you, Oh Bashar!"


I beleive CNN (srry, it was an emailed article or I would link)


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
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posted 15 August 2006 03:09 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Assad in Haretz.

You can google a sentence (in quotes) to find sources for stuff like this.

[ 15 August 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michael Nenonen
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posted 15 August 2006 05:10 PM      Profile for Michael Nenonen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by venus_man:
[qb]

Yes, and not just that- also their salutation! Hence, and not merely based of that, i am saying that Nazis and Hiz-h are all the same.

QUOTE][/URL]

Well, we have something in common: we're both concerned about fascism in the Middle East. In fact, I recently wrote an article on that very subject. You might enjoy reading it:

http://www.republic-news.org/archive/144-repub/144_michael_nenonen_middle_east.htm

Regarding Israel's "success" in its attempt to uproot Hezbollah and to alienate the movement among the Lebanese, this is what Robert Fisk--a man who's on the scene in Lebanon--has to say about the matter:

http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk08152006.html

"And does anyone believe that the Hizbollah will submit to their own disarmament by a new international force of UN and Lebanese troops once--if--it arrives? There was a symbolic moment yesterday when Lebanese soldiers already based in southern Lebanon joined Hizbollah men in Srifa to clear the rubble of a house in which the bodies of an entire family were believed buried. Lebanese Red Cross and civil defense personnel--representatives of the civil power which is supposed to claw back its sovereignty from the Hizbollah--joined in the search. The mukhtar, who so blatantly regarded the Hizbollah as heroes, is also a government representative. And at the entrance to this shattered village still stands a poster of Nasrallah and the Iranian President Ali Khamenei.

Far from driving the Hizbollah north across the Litani river, Israel has entrenched them in their Lebanese villages as never before."


By the way: I hope that no one minds the links to my pieces that I've posted here on Babble...it's just a whole lot easier than re-writing my arguments. If this is a problem, please let me know and I'll stop immediately.

[ 15 August 2006: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 15 August 2006 10:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:

DO you ever find it ironic that the Israelis left Europe to get away from the nazis, and within a few short years, found themselves surrounded by Nazis again? Every where you turn, there's Nazis!

Have you ever pondered why that might be?

Or do you figure it's nothing but a run of bad luck?


A) That is a really callow description of the events of the Holocaust. The "Israelis" didn't just leave of their own accord.

B) What precisely are you pondering here? Are you pondering something about Jews being somehow responsible for the Nazis? Perhaps you could explain what we are supposed to discern here from this thesis of yours?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 15 August 2006 11:27 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
B) What precisely are you pondering here? Are you pondering something about Jews being somehow responsible for the Nazis? Perhaps you could explain what we are supposed to discern here from this thesis of yours?

When conditions change dramatically yet obtains the same result, there are three possibilities:

1. That this is coincidence or a strange run of bad luck.
2. That the common element (the former European population of Israel) brought the problem with them.
3. That the two cases aren't fact the same, at all, and what's happening is a matter of distorted perception or deliberate hype.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 16 August 2006 05:57 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:

When conditions change dramatically yet obtains the same result, there are three possibilities:

1. That this is coincidence or a strange run of bad luck.
2. That the common element (the former European population of Israel) brought the problem with them.
3. That the two cases aren't fact the same, at all, and what's happening is a matter of distorted perception or deliberate hype.


I am confused at what you are trying to get at. I have read your original post, Cueball's question and your reply but am still not sure.

What is it the hypothesis that you are pondering?


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 16 August 2006 06:56 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nenonen... Got any other writings? I'm curious if you see a solution for the region.


JPJ and Cueball... I think what S1mon is getting at is it's either coincidence/badluck, a problem following arund the Jewish people, Or people (such as Venus_Man) are consisntantly using the comparisson in hyperbole (as he pointed out by quoting "...i am saying that Nazis and Hiz-h are all the same."). Atleast how I understood the post.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michael Nenonen
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posted 16 August 2006 07:22 AM      Profile for Michael Nenonen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Noise:
[QB]Nenonen... Got any other writings? I'm curious if you see a solution for the region.

QUOTE]


Yeah, I've been scribbling for The Republic for around three years now. Just go to The Republic's archive section (you can find it by going to my previous article, and then hopping to the Republic's front page, and then going to the archives). I have an article in just about every issue.

As for a solution...I'm not so sure. For starters, I believe that Israel needs to withdraw to its 1967 borders, and that the US needs to stop funding and encouraging Israel's war machine. I think an international boycott of Israel comparable to the boycott of South Africa's Apartheid regime would certainly help. I tend to agree with philosophy professor Michael Neumann's argument that Israel needs to be subject to the same kind of military pressure that other states that have repeatedly violated UN resolutions are subjected to. This requires a massive social movement in favor of Palestinian rights and in opposition to Israel's military ambitions, as well as a recognition by the US government that its unquestioning support for Israel is no longer in America's best interests.

Unfortunately, the whole situation is complicated by religious fundamentalism...certainly the fundamentalism among Jews and Christians, but also among Muslims. I have no idea how to untangle this knot. Messianism and apocalypticism have achieved such an international cultural and political momentum that I'm not sure at all of what could stop them, or even slow them down. As our planet's ecological and economic situation worsens, these forces will almost certainly become more powerful, thwarting any attempts at dealing with the Middle East situation in a rational fashion.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 16 August 2006 07:46 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Messianism and apocalypticism have achieved such an international cultural and political momentum that I'm not sure at all of what could stop them, or even slow them down.

These are just vehicles to recruit people for a final push to consume the last of the earth's resources. Religion is political and is used to fuel the machine of destruction with human blood.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 16 August 2006 07:47 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As our planet's ecological and economic situation worsens

Heh, thats one way of resolving this conflict... Just destroy the Earth so noone can have it ^^ I can see the article already "Oil Sands : The road to peace in the middle east"

__________________________

Bad humour aside, my take on it is the central Lebanese gov't is the primary stabilizing force that needs to be invested in. Lebanon as a whole does not share the 'Destroy Israel!' mindset (Although Israels indiscriminant bombing has changed that a bit)... A strong central gov't should be capable of reigning in and controlling Hizbollah. This war has done quite the reverse mindyou, strengthening Hizbollah and weakening the central gov't... We'll see if that trend reverses any.

That however is ignoring the need/reason behind Hizbollah... Which in many ways link to the Palestinian state. When/if hamas is pacified (pacified doesn't mean destroyed), we'll see the need/reason behind Hizbollah weakened as well... If Hizbollah didn't have the need (and the history) of kidnapping Israeli soldiers to trade for arbitrary arests made by the Israeli's in Gaza, would we see the same support for Hizbollah? Something like 88% of Lebanon supports kidnapping of Israeli soldiers to trade like this. Mind you, thats ignoring the larger conflict of Iran - Israel.

FYI, I like your rather blunt acknowledgement of the level of racism '2 legged cockroaches'... As I have been saying, Israeli civilian killed and it's an act of terrorism, a Lebanese citizen killed and it's regretable (or even their fault). The complete disregard of civilian life in the region from the 'Western World' is horrid.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 16 August 2006 08:20 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Heh, thats one way of resolving this conflict... Just destroy the Earth so noone can have it

That is not a joke. That is the mindset of a physcopath and abuser. See below:

quote:
I want to quote to you now from one of my Panorama interviews with Golda Meir. (It can be found, this quote, on the second page Volume One of my book, in the Prologue which is titled Waiting for the Apocalypse).

At a point I interrupted her to say: “Prime Minister I want to be sure I understand what you’re saying… You are saying that if ever Israel was in danger of being defeated on the battlefield, it would be prepared to take the region and the whole world down with it?” Without the shortest of pauses for reflection, Golda replied: “Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.”

http://www.williambowles.info/isrl-pal/2006/0806/end_of_israel.html



From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 16 August 2006 08:26 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thats a bueatiful article FM... Echoing what it's saying... I hope peeps take the time to read that:

As it so elegantly ends:

quote:
No justice for the Palestinians = no peace for any of us.

Added:

Hizbollah is now promising to rebuild... To provide doctors, engineers, and workers to rebuild the destroyed homes to better than what they were. "To rebuild Lebanon by the people of Lebanon for the people of Lebanon"... Interesting ring to that line. The Lebanese force of 15k will be beside Hizbollah loyalists rebuilding the nation... And from the sounds of it, there'll be an international UN force of 15k there in a month, to help the Lebanese army help the Hizbollah rebuild.

Then again, this should be expected... Afterall it was the Hizbollah that provided the mainstay of relief supplies for refugees from Southern Lebanon, the Hizbollah who repaired previous damage to Lebanese infrastructure caused by Israelis, and the Hizbollah that will clean up this time.

If Hizbollah is primary in the rebuild efforts, which will continue to create support for them, will quite likely will ensure that they'll be an integral peice of Lebanese citizens lives and well being for time to come.

[ 16 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Noise
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posted 17 August 2006 07:31 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CBC has Harper putting forward one of the larger per capita donations into rebuilding Lebanon... Tis a good start.

Israel and France were butting heads a bit... I'm unsure what the current status is today, but yesterday France requested that the blockades be lifted against Lebanon. Israel refused stating that lifting it would allow Hizbollah to rearm. Once again, the heads of the Israeli state are firmly planted in their asses ^^. Hizbollah has the resources, food, water, and aid at their disposal within Lebanon already... The aid that Israel is blocking is what the Lebanese central gov't needs to start rebuilding instead of Hizbollah.

I'm really beginning to think Israel has vested interests in ensuring Hizbollah emerges stronger from this conflict as their policy is consistantly aimed that way.

[ 17 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
sgm
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posted 17 August 2006 11:50 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jimmy Carter on recent events:

quote:
Jimmy Carter says he's concerned that Arab hatred of the United States will only continue to grow given the Bush administration's support for what he calls Israel's "unjustified attack" on Lebanese civilians.

Carter tells Germany's Der Spiegel: "I don't think Israel has any legal or moral justification for their massive bombing of the entire nation of Lebanon."

He adds: "What happened is that Israel is holding almost 10,000 prisoners, so when the militants in Lebanon or in Gaza take one or two soldiers, Israel looks upon this as a justification for an attack on the civilian population of Lebanon and Gaza."


Apologies for linking to Fox News.

[ 17 August 2006: Message edited by: sgm ]


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 August 2006 06:10 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Helicopter-borne Israeli commandos raided a Bekaa Valley stronghold of the Hezbollah militia early Saturday in the first major violation of a six-day-old cease-fire.

Hezbollah, which battled the Israeli military for 33 days until a truce took hold Aug. 14, said its fighters encountered the Israeli commandos near the town of Boudai and engaged them in a fierce gun battle, inflicting casualties and driving them off.

The Israeli military, confirming the raid, said its commandos carried out the operation as part of an effort to prevent resupply of Hezbollah with weapons and munitions from Iran and Syria. It said one Israeli officer was killed and two soldiers were wounded, one seriously.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/19/AR2006081900217.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 August 2006 07:00 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 19 August 2006 10:46 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess hoping for a week was too much.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged

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