Seriously, I think smoking in the cars with kids in it (or anyone with asthma or lung diseases) is a nasty habit and that common courtesy says not to smoke around your kids in such a confined space. Where do the smoker's rights end and their's begin?

I don't know about this park stuff. That is a little overboard I think. But the smoking in cars should be a no brainer.

[ 02 February 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

I smoke when I have a drink which isn't too often anymore. The fact that you have to step outside for a smoke at a bar has done wonders for me, both from cutting my own intake down and because i no longer sit in a room where the air is blue. But... I think secondhand smoke is also a smokescreen to distract us from what really gives kids asthma, keeping parents attention away from their cars and their employers.

[ 02 February 2007: Message edited by: minkepants ]

The health concerns are beyond question, and even if tobacco smoke wasn't harmfull, I don't think people who don't want to be exposed to it should have to put up with it.

But with many anti smoking crusaders, I don't think health concerns are thier motivation. I think many are prissy little assholes who just get thier kicks being able to jerk people around.

Like the person who manouvers themselves to get near a smoker or smokers who have segregated themselves already, so they can whine about it.

I have seen that, and not just a few times.

Has anyone seen the latest commercial regarding second hand smoke? The one with the woman exhaling out the window, and the evil hand of second hand smoke coming in to infect the teddy bear with the ghastly results of her failings as a human being?

I usually take those commercials to heart, but this is a bit much. I bet the off gasses from couches and carpets and Zues knows what else are more worrysome.

Ah, but you can't have as much fun messing with people's private lives by bringing attention to that.

Some of these anti smokers are similar to "true believers", that is, it is now a religion or a religious cause and they will not sleep until they have made all smokers suffer(or stop).

Every notice how a convert to a religion can be worse (more obnoxious) than someone born into it?

and also a form of slow-motion suicide.

as far as banning it, i know too many people who are good people and smoke to want to tell them what to do.

and the terrible thing is, when i did smoke, i found i prefered Camels to the more pure tobacco of Gaulois (sp ?)

It's futile to try to ban the evil shit. It shouldn't be sold in pharmacies and I think future society will not look kindly at our willingness to slowly poison ourselves. But no, bans don't work.

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Originally posted by Abdul_Maria:
i would say it's an effective painkiller, and an anti-anxiety drug.

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Tobacco use creates tobacco use. If you believe you need it to alleviate pain or stress or boredom or anxiety or overeating or sexual dysfunction (yes, I have heard each of those blamed on cigs) then you will need to smoke. If you can get past the "i need" part, it's easy peasy to quit.

I am sorry. I am being one of those insufferable ex smokers I complained about when I smoked. After twenty five stinking years (yes, I meant the stinking part) and smoking in my house and car and around my kids and my non smoker husband and asserting that my rights trumped all theirs....I did finally quit. And yes, it was pretty easy. And I love waking up in the morning not choking on my own phlegm. (That has to be the ikkiest word in the language.)

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Originally posted by Fartful Codger:
It's futile to try to ban the evil shit. It shouldn't be sold in pharmacies and I think future society will not look kindly at our willingness to slowly poison ourselves. But no, bans don't work.

I fail to understand how it is that peddlers of an addictive substance that kills millions stay out of prison.

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On the one hand, you are saying banning cigs is not the answer while at the same time you seem to avocate prison for those who manufacture cigs, which is merely a back-door way of trying to ban cigs (if you imprison company personnel that make cigs, then you will, as Fidel says, simply drive the production of cigs to black markets, like the moonshine days of prohibition).

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I think many are prissy little assholes who just get thier kicks being able to jerk people around.

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Originally posted by Fidel:
ah good points Abdul_Maria. But doesn't prohibiting something leads to underground markets and bootlegging

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That's acceptable to me, provided it's not resulting in drive-by shootings in my neighborhood. It's hard to imagine stabbings or carjackings over Nicotene.

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Originally posted by Adam T:

Probably true. But, prior to the anti smoking laws I think there were a lot of prissy little asshole smokers who would light up just to kget their kicks being able to jerk people around.

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Originally posted by Dana Larsen:
A mainstream cigarette doesn't have tobacco leaf, it has shredded paper which has been soaked in a tobacco/nicotine solution.

Grow your own tobacco! Then you can smoke clean, organic tobacco and not commercial, contaminated tobacco.

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Originally posted by Fartful Codger:
Well, I guess I'm one of those prissy types y'all are railing about. Cigarette smoke is disgusting. I hate walking through a cloud of smokers going in or out of a building. Silly me for not appreciating recycled smoke.

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i agree. in a lot of the yoga classes i've taken, there's parts where you hold your breath.

when i'm walking downtown especially, i'm often thinking, "can you find the cigarette in this picture ?" hopefully i see it before i smell it.

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Nicotine and its related compounds are toxic to horses. The stems and leaves of many types of potato plants contain high concentrations of this alkaloid, as do the wild varieties of tobacco which grow in the western United States and Hawaii. Horses have also been known to be poisoned by domestic tobacco which has been harvested and within their reach, typically when stored in barns where they are stabled.

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Well, I guess I'm one of those prissy types y'all are railing about. Cigarette smoke is disgusting. I hate walking through a cloud of smokers going in or out of a building. Silly me for not appreciating recycled smoke.

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Well, if you weren't so prissy, you might have noticed that I had pre-aquiesed on that point, thus negating your knee jerk reaction, and deftly side stepping any Karate chops faster than your favorite Anime character.

Yes, it's stinky stuff. Harmfull? obviously, in prolonged exposure. Periodic exposure, such as when you pass smokers gathered at a door way? I'm not so sure. I'm convinced there are other contaminants more worrisome.

But yes, as I said before, if it invades your space, regardless of health concerns or the level of health concerns compared to other things, then you shouldn't have to put up with it.

But then, we are on a slippery slope, aren't we? What about us old guys who-- and I take it from the Fartful Codgers moniker, we share this trait-- need a certain increase of fibre in our diet, and contribute to greenhouse gasses from time to time, not to mention committing the horrible social sin of being stinky?

And what of those assholes who order sandwiches in the Tim Horton's drive through?

I ask, let he whose shit does not stink cast the first stone.

Should tobacco products be banned? I think, yes, eventually, when a ban doesn't create a black market.

Creating a social stigma, making addicts evil, failed dirty people is obviously having some effect. Kudos. A greater effect has been to better control the access of tobacco to minors, although this is not perfect. But it is tons better than when I was a kid.

The next step would be to take tobbaco out of the corner stores, and treat it like alcohol in Ontario, with controlled stores.

I've known addicts at work who have kicked cocaine, crystal meth, heroin...and perco...wait, I don't know anyone who has kicked oxycotin and percs (way to go, pharmacuetical companies! success where organized crime failed-- you have to love capitalism) but who cannot quit smoking.

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Does it really matter that cigarette use has declined dramatically in North America but cancer has steadily been on the rise?

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Just ban cigarettes and make them illegal and be done with it!!

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Tobacco is considered a sacred plant by many First Nations. Banning tobacco would be banning their religious and spiritual tobacco ceremonies.

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Oh. I guess that was already tried with alcohol in the 1920s and I hear there didn't work so well

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Originally posted by Dana Larsen:
Tobacco is considered a sacred plant by many First Nations. Banning tobacco would be banning their religious and spiritual tobacco ceremonies.

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Originally posted by laine lowe:

A very good point Head.

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Originally posted by Dana Larsen:
Tobacco is considered a sacred plant by many First Nations. Banning tobacco would be banning their religious and spiritual tobacco ceremonies.

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Originally posted by Makwa:
Oh, like that has never been done before.

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What an absurd idea!!! Whats the most logical result of that going to be ... parents smoking indoors around their children, or tenants filling the halls and ventilation of apartment buildings with their secondhand smoke, of course. It doesn't matter if the ban is only on certain places like parks etc ... they'll use it as a perfect excuse not to go stand out in the cold.

Some of the antismoking stuff is getting a bit out of hand. New workplace rules which have been enacted have "bureaucratic idiocy" written all over them. Get this: can you smoke under an umbrella or sunshade outdoors at a workplace? Legally: Yes, as long as you jump out from under it as soon as it begins raining. If it is raining, it is being used as a roof, and you are not allowed to smoke under it. If it is only being used as shade, it is not being used as a roof, and you are therefore permitted to smoke under it.

An uncle of mine (rather, great uncle) recently passed away - in a state of unnecessary misery. He was 92 years old and staying at a nursing home, to which he had transferred 2-3 years previous. He smoked. Well, this nurse at his new home constantly gave him a hard time about smoking - confiscated his cigarrettes, prevented him from going outside to smoke, badgered him constantly, etc. He said it was the one thing he enjoyed, and I have to say, at his age - it wasn't going to make an iota's difference to his health if he didn't smoke, but it surely did depress him to have to sneak around like a teenager to do it. This nurse's attitude is all too common these days.

[ 04 February 2007: Message edited by: edgewaters72 ]

[ 04 February 2007: Message edited by: edgewaters72 ]

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parents smoking indoors around their children, or tenants filling the halls and ventilation of apartment buildings with their secondhand smoke

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

This already happens on a regular basis, regardless. The guy downstairs from me smokes and the smoke comes right up through two floors in this house to mine. On the main floor the mom has to cover the vents because of the smoke (she has a 4 month old baby).

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To answer Sven's question (which I suspect is a disingenuous attempt to complain about the "nanny state"): no. But perhaps the practice of lacing commercial tobacco with scores of harmful and questionable additives could be outlawed.

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Well, if you weren't so prissy, you might have noticed that I had pre-aquiesed on that point, thus negating your knee jerk reaction, and deftly side stepping any Karate chops faster than your favorite Anime character.

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Originally posted by 2 ponies:
Everyone has the right to do something that harms themselves (e.g. smoking, drugs, alcohol) as long as they don’t harm others in the process.

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Technically incorrect (in that the absence of a restriction does not equal a 'right'). But I'm not going to argue the point.

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We’re not allowed to consume alcohol when we’re just walking down the street, or even in a park. You can only consume it in designated areas that are approved through the appropriate channels. Why should smoking be any different?

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Interesting point.

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Smoking on a lawn chair in my backyard, however, may be the solution to not hurting my kids and still having the ability to partake in my nasty pastime.

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Except that it might then bother the neighbours

[ 06 February 2007: Message edited by: head ]

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Originally posted by 2 ponies:
Perhaps part of the solution is to ban smoking in public places (including outdoors) and then that leaves private places only. So I can smoke in my home except that would make me an idiot since I have kids I would be killing every time I light up. So that leaves my backyard. It seems reasonably to me at first superficial glance; I’m allowed to drink alcohol in my house and my backyard, but unless I get drunk and act like an ass, or spend the grocery money on beer, alcohol doesn’t create an externality that affects my kids. Whereas smoking in the house is an obvious externality that is hurting them. Smoking on a lawn chair in my backyard, however, may be the solution to not hurting my kids and still having the ability to partake in my nasty pastime.

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Well this would be fine as a personal choice, since you obviously possess a backyard. Most renters don't, and many don't even have a balcony. The most obvious result of fining people for smoking in public outdoor areas would be that every smoker that currently steps outside to smoke, and does not possess a private bit of outdoor space, will cease, and begin smoking indoors exclusively. Yes, they *could* quit smoking altogether, and some might. But most simply won't and that's where reality intrudes on the idealism of the matter. It would be a giant backward slide for many people who live with or in the same building as smokers, a great number of them being children.

[ 06 February 2007: Message edited by: edgewaters72 ]