An interesting thing I did hear, and I do agree with, is that in order to become a true feminist you must accept that women will oppress other women just as men do. And this I agree with strongly.

Seriously, I wasn't sure what you were getting at in that OP, but it really sounded grim and depressing.

I believe in liberation - women's liberation, Uzbeki liberation, everybody's liberation. Yay, humans, and I also work on the animals.

It is undeniable that, in liberating groups of people who have been systematically silenced, we have to think about the dynamics of power and oppression. We do. I'm not denying that.

But it is learning to think systematically that matters most. If you just keep slinging words like oppression around, claiming that people are all oppressing one another, then you're not grasping anything that matters.

In fact, some people who want to promote a backlash against feminism do this on purpose. Can you believe that? Strange, but true. They do.

Feminism for Beginners

However, claiming "X" as your motive doesn't necessarily make your actions an example of "X" in action; it's as likely to make you a hypocrtite.

More directly, girl-on-girl bullying is girl-on-girl bullying, not feminism. As is girl-on-boy bullying, incidentally.

Bullying isn't feminism. WHen you see a bully in action, curse them for being a bully and a hypocrite, not for being a feminist.

[ 02 January 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]

Well, of course girls bully girls, girls bully boys, boys bully girls, boys bully boys, the most important word in all that is "bully". Bullies bully.

It has nothing to do with feminism.

I suspect life is uncomfortable for those who dwell in the dark and damp under the bridges and in culverts, sustained only by a diet of raw rodent. It is possible to alter the diet, however. Here's a recipe: come out from the damp dank place, and search for and find some dry sticks. Rub two of them together until you have a fire. Now encase the corpse of the rodent in a thick coating of clay and mud, place it in the coals and bake for a couple of hours, being sure to keep the fire going. Remove the clay "oven" from the heat, crack it open with a conveniently handy rock and be careful! It's hot!! but a nice change from raw rodent.

Of course if you can swipe a couple of onions, maybe a clove or two or garlic and some salt... even better.

quote:

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I suspect life is uncomfortable for those who dwell in the dark and damp under the bridges and in culverts, sustained only by a diet of raw rodent. It is possible to alter the diet, however. Here's a recipe: come out from the damp dank place, and search for and find some dry sticks. Rub two of them together until you have a fire. Now encase the corpse of the rodent in a thick coating of clay and mud, place it in the coals and bake for a couple of hours, being sure to keep the fire going. Remove the clay "oven" from the heat, crack it open with a conveniently handy rock and be careful! It's hot!! but a nice change from raw rodent.

Of course if you can swipe a couple of onions, maybe a clove or two or garlic and some salt... even better.

Anyone else got any good recipes??

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There's a LOT of bullying in the name of feminism, here and everywhere.
I'm not sure that Leechi isn't seeing some now.

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Originally posted by S1m0n:
There's a LOT of bullying in the name of feminism, here and everywhere.

I'm not sure that Leechi isn't seeing some now.

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I don't think Leechi is experiencing bullying here, but there is some skittishness, and I'm sure you'll agree, with good reason. I for one, when I saw this thread title on the main page, bet myself ten dollars it was started by a recent rabble rouser. I just made ten bucks.

I don't think she was talking about simple bullying (which isn't simple at all, and might deserve to be studied more deeply, elsewhere). She was talking about "feminism" used as a club. I've seen that done.
It just means that feminism has become an institution... has arrived, as it were, in the center ring of civilization.

I have also seen people (right around here, even!) condemn Christianity as whole, because some people who called themselves Christians burned some other people (most of whom also called themselves Christian) at the stake.

Certainly, one problem is power; the structure and maintenance of power; the need for it, the getting of it, the means of getting it. Anything - absolutely anything can be abused in the quest for power. No matter how pure and clean and wonderful the original idea was, it can be abused. Every abuse diminishes the credibility and effectiveness of the institution and all its agencies.
And so, if one is dedicated to the good idea at the center of an institution, one ought, from time to time, to examine the structure for cracks.
Silencing someone (friend, bystander or foe) who reports a perceived flaw doesn't protect the structure; it only protects the illusion of perfection. We can't afford illusions.

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Originally posted by leechi:
I would love to discuss this but too busy now!

tomorrow maybe

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I think you should take some time when you're less busy, and let us know exactly what you want us to be talking about. I think people are curious, and a bit skeptical. It would help a lot if you would elaborate, and tell us where you're coming from.

I do think that a question such as "what is feminism?" has validity as a discussion topic, on a more complex level. For example, it could lead into a discussion of where feminism is going; trans- politics and feminism; feminism on a global scale; feminism through the generations (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th? waves...); feminism as a deconstructive framework. What are feminist issues today, in Canada?

quote:

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Originally posted by nonesuch:
Even if she is a troll - and i'm not eager to leap to that conclusion - there is a legitimate question in there. We've been patient with inarticulate people before: let's try to do it again. Let's begin by assuming that she's sincere, until proved otherwise.

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My mother allowed my brother to beat me after suspecting I was promiscuous. I had some real issues- actually before the beating I had been through a rough date incident and really wasn't doing so well.

To make a long story short I have seen my mother say how she cares for the issues of rape victims and abuse survivors when she herself had allowed abuse to happen, and had been abusive herself. I would see her say one thing like how rape is such a terrible issue, then turn to me and no joke tell me this once,

"you know my friend's husband (a rape survivor) he is still depressed. Some people need to just get over their shit- he's so weak."

or something she always liked to say to me,

"Men can do whatever they want."

I've witnessed people giving acknowledgement to issues of rape, and abuse, and seeming to adopt a feminist way of thinking, all the while desparately clinging to the patriarchial model in an almost greedy kind of way because it simply gives them power, and because they are afraid. I have witnessed this on so many levels I'm afraid- I don't have time to write though.

I grew up with a girl whose mother taught emotionally-damaged children, many of whom had survived the most horrific abuse. This woman was well-respected in the community for her work. But at home, she dominated her daughter with emotional abuse to such a degree that this girl has never been able to break free. She has never lived on her own (and we're over, um, thirty-five) and she brought her mother as her date to my wedding when we were twenty-eight.

I also have much contempt for use of oppressive language that is gender biased (like the word slut or whore.) Again that's a part of my experiences I want to talk about, and often words my mother used to justify her attitude towards me, and also my experience of bullying by other girls, and classmates (male, and female). But again a story for another day, and how it relates to feminism I am not sure.

I think I had felt like I am not a feminist because I felt some of my experiences were my fault, and reactions were anti-feminist in a way. I also think I have many questions that need to be explored even if they don't make sense initially; because why were some people so quick to oppress me after my experiences- I think that is an issue I need clarity over in a non-judgemental way. And I sometimes I just have questions I don't know how to ask.

[edited for spelling! :-S]

[ 04 January 2006: Message edited by: Accidental Altruist ]

======================================

age 5- some abuse began with a neighbour. He was a teen- some of it got worse than just touching me in the wrong place. Oral rape. He says he wants to put it inside me but i cry saying it will hurt. He puts it in my mouth again. I have a strange earlier memory of him pulling me onto his lap. He is naked- he has taken my underwear off. He plays games where he takes off my pants.

age 10-13- my step father starts coming in my room naked- demanding I kiss him. He beats me up bad one night. I still don't remember everything that happened. I run away when he tries to push me into more sexual activity. I think he abused my brother too. Physical and emotional abuse are common elements of family life for me. When my mother left our step dad, she ended up in a very physically abusive relationship for few years and things get really bad. I start getting trying sex and getting into trouble.

I feel really ashamed and confused for the next following things.

age 15- I end up in a strange relationship with a 30 year old man. I don't call it a relationship-it's not a relationship. It's more like this guy follows me saying he wants to help me from my abusive family. He threatens to rape me, and hunt me down if I don't want sex. He has me in a corner when this happens. I try to leave but he yells for me to sit down, and says he'll make it worse for me. I feel it's consent because I give in but only after being threatened. i feel his threats have left a scar. My mother calls me a whore and refers to the guy as my boyfriend.

Age 15- I have another bad date experience. I feel it's my fault I feel like I could've stopped it, or should've tried harder to stop it but didn't. I made some bad decisions but I still think something abusive happened. These guys find out I have lost my virginity a while ago. I feel very embarrassed and like this is my fault. They heard I have two partners. I admit it happened when a female friend asks me and they see it as an open invitation for sex for them. The one guy asks me if I want to fuck, and I say no. He says "really?"

His friend notices while I am walking my bra strap is broken. I go behind a fence, and I try to fix it but of course the guy chases me, and starts grabbing my breasts. I am screaming, and trying to get away but he is strong. He keeps grabbing. We walk a little further and he grabs me again kissing me, I try to break away but I can't break away. He lets me go, and one of his friends suggests we go to his house - his mom is home. I feel safe at this offer- I am homeless at the time and I go- stupid but I didn't know where else to go. And some guy grabbing me wasn't enough of a threat.

We "fool around" when we get there, but I question how much consent went into it. It happened when all his friends started making me nervous by staring at me and saying how "hot" I am. When I backed away from them the same guy ran at me again, and pushed me into a room. He pushed me onto a bed and began kissing me. At first I was just compliant I think out of confusion. I touched the front of his pants (he pulled my hands towards him) but I pulled away because he quickly undid my pants and shoved his fingers inside me. It was rough and I wanted to say no but he was biting my lip- he was a big guy. Seconds later a parent yelled out she could hear us fooling around in there. Maybe I shouldn't ever believe anything bad happened. His friends pile into the room and he shoves my head in his lap trying to get me to "suck it." When I don't he kicks me in the face. He didn't bruise me, he didn't wind back and wail on me, he just kneed me and started laughing at me, along with his friends. I was freaked by this point. I saw it as threatening behavior for sure.

Afterwards, when a friend and I left, I said nothing, pretended like nothing happened, said he was cute, and tried to crack a few jokes but couldn't because I felt what he did was abusive. I felt like a stupid whore. I felt to blame. I began self harming after this- I think I actually began to go insane. Maybe I am too sensitive- my family beat me up though insisting I was a whore. I tried to hospitalise myself but got beat for it. The neglect and violent abuse I experienced when I got home screwed me up bad. It made me feel like my mother got a twisted thrill out of abusing me, and that she gained much power from getting my brother to beat me.

I sometimes feel confused by what hurt me. When the last thing happened at age 15 (with the guy kicking me) I think i was suffering from PTSD. I feel like I went completely insane. I couldn't stop thinking about hurting myself or suicide. I guess you can say it's teen angst, but I remember feeling just so out of control. I would have trouble defining the last thing that happened as abusive, and that created much conflict. I felt so guilty too. I felt I couldn't talk to anyone one about it; i felt I brought it on. When I went to talk about it the first things that were always asked was "did you say anything that might of encouraged it." I felt I did- so it was not seen as abusive- just something I caused. When I mentioned my family and the way they would hit me, it was often too much for the person to hear, or they just assumed I was lying. I began to make up stories woven out of my experiences just so I'll be seen. I started having psychotic episodes after the guy hit me, and then my family beat me.

I feel alone very much of the time in this- maybe this has happened to others, just like me, and they feel just as confused about what has happened as I do. Maybe others have felt badly hurt by sexual abuse, and physical abuse just as I have. I still feel too fucked up, and alone. I sometimes want people to define things for me too, so I know it's not just something I am alone in. Maybe if I just thought of some of my experiences were nothing maybe they wouldn't hurt, but then I find myself stuck in re-expereincing feelings I thought I had when I was sexually abused.

After this my behavior gets more fucked up- I should've got psychiatric treament- but didn't. I think because my family beat me, and would always accuse me of being crazy I feared being stigmized and my treatment worsening at home. My brother threatened to kill me on a daily basis after the first initial beatings, and I began to fear it really happening. I feel they beat me because they think I'm a whore and they hate my behavior, but i think sometimes they terrorize me to get me to not talk about abuse throughout my adolescence. I don't know.

I still suffer with depression, panic, bipolar disorder, and sometimes disassociation, I want it to stop, but I feel I will always be nuts. I think I grew into this fuck up who began to fear facing anything in her life. I would try to shut down emotionally all the time, it's still a habit because I find I am crippled at experiencing emotions like grief. I never cry- maybe that is a good thing. I think when confronted with my past I experience doubt, anger, but I have never cried. I have so many questions. I feel like when I ask one I have a hundred more.

[ 06 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]

[ 06 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]

[ 06 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]

The most neutral and non-threatening definition of feminism I can think of, which does nothing to limit the choices of free individuals, is that feminism is about ensuring equality of opportunity (economic and education), equality of protection (law), equality of 'say' in making/proposing laws...

quote:

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Originally posted by LiberalPrisoner:
Hmm... the topic reads 'what is feminism really?' and the thread has degraded into descriptions of domestic abuse...

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I guess I started the thread because I have seen the word bantered about- and the brief version that you described- seemed to take a back seat.

In my original post I was pretty confused about feminism because it seemed like some people (in my experience) adopted feminist beliefs, and then would attack in a way that seemed to deny feminism (you may have read some examples).

And yes I also put my past here. I guess being that if feminism were allowed to exist more freely in it's true form, and in the way you described maybe those things would be dealt with more swiftly. I guess that's why I am here, and saying what is feminism anyways? And if it is what I think it is- why didn't I see it then?

Also another question that comes to mind is why was patriarchy such a powerful structure in my world (at least the screwed up version of it)? Any sort of feminist power disappeared in my world, in myself, or on my behalf. And I think that's the bigger part of my question- and probably what has got me confused.

I am trying to not bastardise the word or blame feminism in it's true form. It's the grey areas that have confused me the most I believe.

I think I have many questions- i could put it under another post but I think I should place all the influences that lead me to question what feminism is here.

And more importantly why in some domestic violence situations, the response is to not to protect a woman, but to silence and deny her. I am speaking on an institutional level as well. maybe that should be for another post.

[ 06 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]

[ 06 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]

[ 06 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]

I don't think it helps clear up your thinking to entangle the description of your experiences with feminist-sounding words like 'patriarchy' and 'feminist power'.

Unwanted sexual advances and rape are CRIMES, they have nothing to do with feminism. Using feminist terms only muddies the water.

As for the 'institutional' aspect of why police and prosecuters are slow to take these cases is, too often, the victim chickens out and refuses to testify, which causes their case to fall apart. It isn't that our society allows men 'to do what they want', its that there aren't enough women doing their bit to put a stop to these types of criminals.

quote:

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Originally posted by LiberalPrisoner:
I don't think it helps clear up your thinking to entangle the description of your experiences with feminist-sounding words like 'patriarchy' and 'feminist power'.

Unwanted sexual advances and rape are CRIMES, they have nothing to do with feminism. Using feminist terms only muddies the water.

As for the 'institutional' aspect of why police and prosecuters are slow to take these cases is, too often, the victim chickens out and refuses to testify, which causes their case to fall apart. It isn't that our society allows men 'to do what they want', its that there aren't enough women doing their bit to put a stop to these types of criminals.

As a victim of crime, you deserve and should seek help. You have my sincere wish that you find someone qualified enough to help you.

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I did once go to the police over my family. They wouldn't allow me to file charges. They basically asked to take pictures of bruises but they never did. I was dumped at an emergency shelter for the night then sent home the next day. I begged the police allow me to talk to children's aid. The police didn't file any assault charges, and didn't contact children's aid so i had to do it myself. I sat in a children's aid office where they treated me like a nuisance. they tried to get me to stay at a friend's house. The friend had argued with me recently but had no clue about my family history, so they said no to having me stay there. The counsellor then called the police back and had them dump me at home.

You're right my experiences are nothing to do with feminism but a perversion of power. I did chicken out on filing charges in the sexual assault cases- some I think I felt would easily be turned against me. In one instance I was being deliberately bullied at home over.

211 Toronto also has links to resources and can provide referrals by phone.

In terms of feminist ideals breaking down/not being there, well, I wish they had been. I think you'll find that most feminists work hard on these issues and fight for things like proper funding for women's shelters/crisis lines, support for abused women, and an overall societal change of attitude towards the patriarchy and women's oppression.

I truly hope you find the support you need. Good for you for speaking out.

quote:

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Unwanted sexual advances and rape are CRIMES, they have nothing to do with feminism. Using feminist terms only muddies the water.

As for the 'institutional' aspect of why police and prosecuters are slow to take these cases is, too often, the victim chickens out and refuses to testify, which causes their case to fall apart. It isn't that our society allows men 'to do what they want', its that there aren't enough women doing their bit to put a stop to these types of criminals.

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LiberalPrisoner, bigcitygal is right -- and I think she's being restrained. While I see that you may be defending feminism from some rather large generalisations, it would be better if you didn't tell an obviously hurt woman what is and is not feminism.

I would definitely say that sexual assault is a feminist issue; it took a little while for leechi to talk about this and I imagine it was very hard for her. Silencing women who've been assaulted is easy enough to do, and being dismissive is certainly one of the ways to do it.

quote:

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As for the 'institutional' aspect of why police and prosecuters are slow to take these cases is, too often, the victim chickens out and refuses to testify, which causes their case to fall apart. It isn't that our society allows men 'to do what they want', its that there aren't enough women doing their bit to put a stop to these types of criminals.

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If you read the rest of my story you'd realise when it came to the physical violence - my mother encouraged my brother to be physically violent, and got physically involved in the abuse herself- i tried to report but it was like telling a brick wall. As for one case of sexual abuse involving a step parent I reported it to the police, and he got one night in jail, and treatment. As a young child -unfortunately it's easy to shame, and threaten a 5 year old into not telling.

As for some of the other things (when I was 15, and a 30 year old man was involved), again if you read, my mother would bully me over it calling me a whore, and encouraged brother to do the same.

As for the final act of sexual bullying by a teen acquaintance which probably qualifies as sexual battery, I was in the process of telling. I was obviously very confused after it happened, and felt all my behavior was to blame, but I was also obviously traumatised. I remember starting to tell a guidance counsellor, and actually trying to get myself to a hospital- then if I told- I imagine treatment would ensue. However I still believed I had a family so i went home- and was beaten.

So was I really chickening out or getting the shit intimidated, and beaten out of me before i could tell? As for my experiences as a teen, which I never named rape, and felt punished for whatever I did wrong, (which was rather small in comparison for what those men did wrong) do you think that stopped me from telling? I've been told I've been taken advantage of and it was never rape often, I've also been told that "whatever you say will be held against you."

The worst I feared after all this was silence because i had already received so much, even when I did tell.

And so why is it "degrading" to ask about feminism, describe incidences of violence (that I felt hurt so deeply over), and wonder about what social structures failed here? It's obvious some did. To say feminism didn't evolve over issues of domestic violence and rape is silly- it obviously did- again if you read you might've got why I am asking about feminism (or why the lack of in my situation). You yourself said it was to created to have fairness for women under law to make them just as free (just as men are chained).

There are systemic failures that cause domestic violence- again if I am muddying the waters with my story go tell that to the rest of the board whenever they bring up the topic under feminism.

I felt I said something wrong but now I am incensed. Again there seems to be this blatant attempt at silencing for whatever reason- and trying to shame me for not doing "my bit", or whatever you think you can blame me for.

As for healing I am doing that already- read the rest of the post and figure out how much it can cost me to "just get help", and what cutting healthcare has done to programs that would've initially helped me. I am on a waiting list right now for a therapist, and I may have to cut my hours at work for another program. I have healed in many other ways in the meantime.

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: leechi ]