babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » walking the talk   » labour and consumption   » What % of servers' tips should go to kitchen staff?? HELP!!

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: What % of servers' tips should go to kitchen staff?? HELP!!
Anchoress
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4650

posted 17 April 2004 04:24 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd like to get an idea of what is normal as far as the percentage of tips that should go to the kitchen staff.

The restaurant where I work pools tips, and when I started there was no formal policy in place - there were just a couple of servers who would 'buy cigarettes' for the kitchen staff.

But since I started, business has dropped off, and because (an added complication) the kitchen staff are also all owners, they are pressuring the wait staff to remit larger and larger percentages of our tips to them.

Some of the waiters feel sorry for / have family connections to / the owners, so they are all for giving up to 20% of our pooled tips to the kitchen (even though the restaurant is so slow that we often have only two or three tables (or less) per shift, *total* (not per section)), but that seems a little excessive to me. But... I don't really know, since the only other places I worked either didn't require waiters to share tips with the kitchen, or it was a negligible amount (2% IIRC).

I think I'm a little biased because the reason we're so slow is entirely because of the owners: one of them constantly picks fights with waiters and customers, and the place is very shabby (I know, why am I there? I'm working on a way out lol), so I can't help but think that when I go home with $8 six shifts a week, why should I give them $20 on the one night I make good money? They're the *owners*, they're supposed to make their money on the *profits of the restaurant*, and if the restaurant isn't profitable, it's not fair to expect the wait staff to make up the difference.

But, OtoH, they *are* good chefs, and they work hard during banquets etc and that deserves something, because we look good out front due in part to their hard work in the back.

But again, OtoH, isn't it a bit of a conflict of interest when it's the owners themselves trying to squeeze tip money out of the servers? Isn't that kind of like extortion?

So, any information would be great.

[ 17 April 2004: Message edited by: Anchoress ]


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
patrokles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3068

posted 17 April 2004 06:54 AM      Profile for patrokles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
non serving staff generally get 1% of sales... though any owner that demands a cut of his servers tips is a heartless bastard. plus if the place is so slow that there's only three tables a night, why the hell are there multiple servers on the floor? there are good serving jobs in vancouver -- and now is when they'd be hiring -- do yourself a favor and get the hell outta there.
From: schmlocation! | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195

posted 17 April 2004 12:05 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know about Canada but in some U.S. states it's illegal for an employer to require servers to pool tips with non-serving staff.

IMO, most customers expect their tips to go to the server. The obligation is on the owner of the restaurant to pay non-serving staff adequately. They certainly should be paying them better than the servers, assuming the servers get to keep the tips.

If the owners also work at the restaurant, and are hurting because their ownership share isn't as large as it used to be to due to a downturn in business, it's up to them to try and figure out how to get more business.

[ 17 April 2004: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 17 April 2004 12:09 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I used to work in a summer resort. The prices included tips, and all the staff - maintenance, kitchen, etc - had a share. Of course, many guests gave an extra tip to the waiter that had served them all week, but no-one minded. After all, waiters had the worst hours.

But owners shaking down wait staff for a share of the tips is off-the-chart sleazy. You're quite right: they should be making money from their profits and from the salaries they pay to themselves.

[ 17 April 2004: Message edited by: Oliver Cromwell ]


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
windymustang
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4509

posted 17 April 2004 12:23 PM      Profile for windymustang     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My daughter here in Manitoba is required by her employer to giver 20% of her tips to the cook. She also feels obligated to give 5% to the bus/dish person on a particularly busy day as that person helps with her duties.
From: from the locker of Mad Mary Flint | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 17 April 2004 01:08 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't this subject partly covered by the tax laws? I was under the impression that people who work in a line of work where they get tips are assumed to have a certain percentage of tips in their income...or something like that. Am I mistaken?

Mind you, there's inconsistency here. I know of friends who work in a bar, and one bartender shares the tips with the bar back...and another bartender keeps them for himself.

My own first job was in a hotel where the tips weren't shared. Come to think of it, that's probably why I'm on babble instead of the Free Dominion. Ain't life funny...


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Meowful
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4177

posted 17 April 2004 01:17 PM      Profile for Meowful   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was a waitress for years. Usually gave the busboy 10%. But I completely refused to share my tips with other servers. Why? Because Little Miss Lousy Waitress didn't make any money because she sucks at her job. As an excellent waitress - why should I share my booty?

And with regard to taxes. I always used to say I was a hostess/waitress and never in 10 years did I declare any tip money.

"waitress", "busboy" -- sorry 'bout being politically incorrect, I was a server back in the 80's!


From: British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4650

posted 17 April 2004 04:40 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the replies. So far, the answers range from zero to 20 percent; anyone else with specific experience in this arena?

As to the other issues raised, personally I don't mind pooling tips. It's really logical in this restaurant, actually, for three reasons:

1. The restaurant is never busy enough to ensure an equitable division of customers between sections.

2. One of the other servers is *already* so pushy in trying to be the one to take a customer's order that it's more annoying than good service; if he thought he'd be getting more tips by doing so I predict it would be so bad it would actually turn customers off the restaurant.

3. The kitchen (read: the owners) expects the staff to serve people quickly, and that includes 'helping' each other with our tables. Also, the tables aren't numbered, and we don't usually divide the restaurant into sections, so it's confusing enough already without trying to divide things for the purposes of tips.

The reason why pooling tips is a problem is that the shifts where we make the most money are almost always the most highly-staffed shifts, which means that when we're in the back counting tips, it's not up to me how much to give the kitchen - the other two servers (who have worked there longer and are very close with the owners) decide on a lump sum off the top, before the tips are divided.

If it were up to each server (which would be my preference but I'm out-voted), then it wouldn't be a problem. I could give five or 10 percent (which I'm perfectly comfortable with), and the others could give 20 or 25% or whatever.

My main reason for posting this question online is v/v the nights when I am working alone and make good money.

A few weeks ago, I had an unusually good shift; only five tables (which was about 3 more than usual for a weekday night), but they tipped really well. Not because they spent a lot, they just liked me.

I made $60, which believe me had me jumping for joy, because I often leave on a weekday night with less than $5 in my pocket.

The next day, one of the other servers came to me and said the kitchen was 'concerned' because they felt they deserved a share of my money. Now these are the same people who get to decide if/when I get a raise, and what/how many hours I get!

If any of my tables had been big, where the kitchen had to really work to get the food out at the same time etc, I would have felt it fair to give them a cut. But even though I was *running* for the whole three hours of my shift, the kitchen spent almost the whole night sitting down watching TV. I felt I'd earned the difference between a usual night for five tables ($20-25) and the actual from that night with my own hard work and personality.

So, the long and the short of it is I didn't give them anything, but I resolved to myself to give the kitchen some portion of my tips on nights when I make, say, over $50. But I want to figure out ahead of time how much, and I *don't* want it to be 20%.


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 17 April 2004 07:10 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pooling tips with other workers seems to me to be fine practice.

However, bosses and owners demanding tip money from serving staff is outright extortion and thievery. It's just shaking down people who can least afford to fight back and assert their rights in this situation (if not legally, certainly they have moral rights to that money).


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 17 April 2004 07:29 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If this shit isn't prima facie evidence for the need of a union in the workplace, then nothing is. Bosses do this stuff all the time in so many, many workplaces. Every worker, without exception, deserves an organizational means of self-defence, whoever his/her employer is. Even friendly bosses can become unfriendly.

Of course the loud-mouthed trolls and others that populate babble with their stentorian pronounciations about "freedom" are nowhere to be found. Typical.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
windymustang
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4509

posted 17 April 2004 09:29 PM      Profile for windymustang     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When I talked about my daughter's experiences regarding tip sharing, I should have stated that I didn't think it was fair that she had to share her tips with the cook. She was told that she had to give the cook 20% of her tips. She was making minimum wage and the cook made $3.00/hr more than her. The wage difference alone should have made up the difference and given the cook incentive to supply the food on time and well prepared. I agreed with her tipping the bus person.
From: from the locker of Mad Mary Flint | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4650

posted 18 April 2004 02:53 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
N.BELTOV, I don't think it's as simple as saying 'unionisation is the answer to this problem', for several reasons.

1. These owners break the letter and/or spirit of so many employment standards that if we were unionised the place would be out of business, which frankly isn't what I would want.

2. There are only three servers at this restaurant, so I doubt we *could* unionise.

3. [most importantly] The genesis of this problem is with my co-workers. *They* are responsible for the owners expecting 20% of our tips, because the two servers who have been there longer than I feel sorry for the owners, and take it upon themselves to reward the owners beyond reason, and well beyond my comfort level.

The problem is that now there is a precedent, and the owners have an expectation which extends past the 'usual' circumstances under which we give portions of tips (large parties where the chefs do a lot of prep work and really hustle to serve large groups all at once) to *any* circumstances where we servers earn substantial tips.

As regards my co-workers and our pooled tips, I have resigned myself to going along with what they want - voicing my own opinion of course - and if that means a few dollars less each banquet so be it. Regarding my solo shifts, I am perfectly comfortable saying to the owners 'this is what I think is fair to give you, get used to it', but I just want feedback from others as to what *is* a fair percentage.

Also, I would like to be able to say something concrete to my co-workers, because I will definitely hear from them if I take a different line from theirs (they feel bad for the owners and so they try to guilt me into following their lead). If I can say 'the norm is 5% - give more if you like' then it will have a lot more legitimacy than just 'I don't think 20% is fair' which they judge to be just greedy.

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: Anchoress ]


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 19 April 2004 11:15 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agreed about the unionization thing. Too many people today are too polarized on the issue. Ask most people, and they'll still tell you unions are 'too powerful', despite all evidence to the contrary.

Interestingly, in my experience, those same people will tell you that people should be protected by strong labour laws - which would be much more effective for the growing sector employed by small business.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 19 April 2004 11:27 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The problem with "strong labour laws" is that they can be changed by governments that decide to make war on working people.

Having a collective agreement is like having a contract; contracts have remedies if problems come up, a means to resolve disputes during the life of a contract, and so on. A good example is Human Rights legislation. By having a clause in a collective agreement that asserts that Human Rights legislation must be complied with, it makes Human Rights matters a grievance matter. And grievances have timelines, steps in the process for resolving the dispute, and so on. The Human Rights process, by itself, takes years and years and years...which bosses know very well.

Another example would be holidays. If the current law makes Remembrance Day a paid holiday for all workers, who is to say that another hostile government won't change it to make it a day off without pay? Such actions have been done already in Canada. So having Remembrance Day as a paid holiday in a collective agreement makes sure that such crap cannot take place. But a collective agreement requires a union as one of the parties.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca