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Author Topic: Is misogyny politically correct if done for the Cause?
martin dufresne
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posted 28 December 2007 08:39 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Hillary Hatred Finds Its Misogynistic Voice
By JONATHAN TILOVE
Seattle Times, December 27, 2007
Anti-Clinton language is taking American politics into new territory.

WASHINGTON -- In the coming months, America will decide whether to elect its first female president. And amid a techno-media landscape
where the wall between private vitriol and public debate has been reduced to rubble, Sen. Hillary Clinton is facing an onslaught of
open misogynistic expression.

Step lightly through that thickly settled province of the Web you could call anti-Hillaryland and you are soon knee-deep in "bitch," "slut," "skank," "whore" and, ultimately, what may be the most toxic
four-letter word in the English language.

We have never been here before.

No woman has run quite the same gantlet. And of course, no man.

Thanks to several thousand years of phallocentric history, there is no comparable vocabulary of degradation for men, no equivalently rich trove of synonyms for a sexually sullied male. (...)



Hillary Hatred Finds Its Misogynistic Voice

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 28 December 2007 08:57 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No. There are enough policy reasons to oppose Clinton. A resort to misogyny merely cheapens and undermines the opposition and helps to solidify her base. If the best the anti-Hillary crowd can do is attack her gender, then they are bankrupt both morally and intellectually.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 28 December 2007 09:15 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
No. There are enough policy reasons to oppose Clinton. A resort to misogyny merely cheapens and undermines the opposition and helps to solidify her base. If the best the anti-Hillary crowd can do is attack her gender, then they are bankrupt both morally and intellectually.

Agreed.

On that note, the campus republicans here have a design for their tshirt. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. With pictures of an elephant, a donkey, and hillary.


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 28 December 2007 09:24 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Frustrated Mess:
quote:
There are enough policy reasons to oppose Clinton. A resort to misogyny merely cheapens and undermines the opposition and helps to solidify her base.

Ah yes, the further twist of the knife - "misogynist attacks give woman candidates au unfair advantage"... (can't find the puke emoticon)
Actually, female politicians have been destroyed by outright, accepted, glorified-as-humour misogyny.
N.B.: Tilove's article ends with a similarly reassuring prediction of a possible backlash to the backlash... how convenient!

[ 28 December 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 28 December 2007 09:35 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Actually, female politicians have been destroyed by this kind of misogyny, while your own argument is tantamount to blaming the victim for an unfair advantage allegedly afforded to her by these attacks. N.B.: Tilove's article ends with a similarly reassuring prediction of a possible backlash to the backlash...

Uhm ... first, I answered the question put by the thread: Is misogyny politically correct if done for the Cause?

And the short answer was 'No'. Second,to read into my answer a "blaming the victim" would take a hell of a number of logical leaps. Lastly, I don't see Hillary Clinton as some sort of fair maiden requiring a prince, no matter how liberal or politically correct, for a rescue.

Hillary Clinton is a seasoned, experienced politician who has endured immature, juvenile attacks on her gender for decades. She is a serious contender for president of the USA because she has learnt to manage the neandrathals in her own way.

In a political streetfight the little republican nose pickers are no match and she knows it.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 28 December 2007 09:46 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You have it the wrong way around.
Protesting sexism is no more chivalrous than protesting racism is patronizing. It's chivalry that is sexist.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 28 December 2007 10:06 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't say it was. But it is not up to Hillary Clinton to battle it. She has a bigger fight (and AI hope she loses). It is up to the rest of us to make Republican-style politics as repugnant and anti-social as smoking in a restaurant. That shouldn't be so hard.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 28 December 2007 10:10 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It is up to the rest of us to make Republican-style politics as repugnant and anti-social as smoking in a restaurant.

Agreed... even if we find them in the Left, as exemplified by Segolène Royal's misogynist treatment by many of her fellow Socialists early this year.

[ 28 December 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 28 December 2007 11:30 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course the answer to martin's question is no.

And of course attacks on Hilary by the right were going to be misogynistic. Why should we expect otherwise?

quote:

We never have been here before.

No woman has run quite the same gantlet. And, of course, no man.



If by "we" the author means "The U.S." of course he's right. The closest was Geraldine Ferraro who ran, and lost, for VP on the Mondale ticket.

Plus Hilary's running for the Big seat, not the second banana, AND she has a very very good chance of winning. This makes her more threatening of course, even though politically she's as hawkish as most Democrats are.

But let's be clear that many many other countries around the world have elected, repeatedly, women as presidents, prime ministers, and other such governing roles and the world hasn't fallen apart. In fact, it's mostly gone along in pretty much the same ways.

The U.S. is so not a trend-setter in many areas, and politics is one. The fact that the mostly male mostly white web and blogging communities are freaking out and dumping misogyny about HC on the web, well, they would do that anyways, they just have a convenient target.

And misogyny is never a good arguing tactic, as FM has stated. If I want to describe how loathsome I find Ann Coulter or Rachel Marsden, I certainly don't need sexism and misogyny to do so.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 28 December 2007 12:31 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agreed. But the point of misogyny seems to be that you don't even have to consider the issues and argue. It's her being a woman that is the biggest lynch crowd-pleaser. Back in the nineties, a leftist ally had devised a way of raising funds at rallies. For a dollar, he would run through a shredder your choice of much-hated right-wing political leaders photographs. Despite running agaisnt the likes of Ariel Sharon, Hitler, Reagan and Pinochet, Thatcher would always be picked hands-down by most love-to-haters. (To his credit, that bothered him.)

[ 28 December 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ibelongtonoone
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posted 28 December 2007 12:50 PM      Profile for Ibelongtonoone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think you'll see too many attacks based solely on her being a woman, half the voters are women for one and two - attacks on something the candidate can do nothing about are shallow and pointless.

It would be like democrats attacking McCain for being old. It would backfire.


From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 28 December 2007 01:24 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sexism can be internalized. In the story quoted, it is a woman who is presented as the spark of the current misogynist attacks on Clinton.

Also, your analogy doesn't work: we all get old but male attackers don't turn into women (and for men, aging can be a sign of statesmanship).

Also, the fact that the attacked can do nothing about the condition on which attacks are based has never stopped racists in the past...

Finally, the shallower and the more pointless the attacks, the better, when all you want is to cut someone down, to "beat the bitch".

I don't want to sound discouraging but it seems to me that to really oppose misogynyny, we have to lose the illusion that it is a counterproductive tactic for those using it, and we can just wait for them to meet their demise.

"All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing" (Burke)


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
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posted 28 December 2007 10:43 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
I don't think you'll see too many attacks based solely on her being a woman, half the voters are women for one and two - attacks on something the candidate can do nothing about are shallow and pointless.

It would be like democrats attacking McCain for being old. It would backfire.


puke EMO


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 29 December 2007 06:29 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
These kinds of attacks are about energizing certain elements of the Republican base.

The Republicans will have a bigger chore this time out, with many traditional supporters either not voting, and certainly not volunteering.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ibelongtonoone
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posted 29 December 2007 11:49 AM      Profile for Ibelongtonoone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
martin dufresne

I understand and agree with several of yr points, and as Tommy pointed out certain elements of the repub party may use misogynistic attacks against Mrs Clinton.

I guess I just have more faith in the ordinary masses of people to not only not be persuaded by this type of attack but to be put off by it.

Propaganda is the use of magic by those who no longer believe against those who still do

W.H Auden


From: Canada | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 29 December 2007 05:29 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The rightwingers hate her because she's a woman seeking executive power. And because she's a Democrat. Leftwingers dislike her (hate is too strong a word) because she now supports pretty much the same agenda under a slightly more diluted Democratic banner.

So, if the question is whether leftists should support her, the answer has to be no, nomore than the Canadian left should support a corporate "centrist" like Belinda Stronach or EMay. OTOH the scarcely concealed misogyny being invoked on the right should be exposed for what it is, same as when valid criticism of Stronach's lack of principles devolved into gender based trash talk.

[ 29 December 2007: Message edited by: Erik Redburn ]


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