I don't have a problem with Bono addressing the Libs. They are, after all, the government, and will be for awhile yet. Might as well try to get some support for his goals (apart from being a self involved pop god).

quote:

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Well I for one find Bono's saintly toadying a shade or two disgusting. If you've gotta waste your time speaking truth to power, for God's sake don't do it over ice wine and canapes!

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speaking truth to power is a waste of time?

look, 35 million people may be infected with HIV in china and india alone by 2010, never mind what state africa is going to be in. if bono can shift development aid by 1-2% among key countries in the north, more strength to his arm.

[ 06 November 2003: Message edited by: Willowdale Wizard ]

quote:

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I've never heard of "Bono"

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You too?

[ 06 November 2003: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

quote:

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Originally posted by minimal:
Anyway, where is it written that we must all be fans of some half-baked rock star just because he/she is trying to gain publicity by supporting good causes?

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He's expended a lot of effort trying to draw attention to real world problems. It may well be because he thinks the sun shines out of his arse, but who cares. If he gets anything done, go to it.

He definitely doesn't need the publicity, I doubt he's 'jumping on the Liberal bandwagon.' More like he sees an opportunity to express his views to a group of government leaders. I might take the same opportunity myself.

I remember hin warming up to Jean Chretien before the "behind the fence and away from the people" confab of the G8 in Alberta. They were to make Africa the discussion and get more money for AIDS.

Bush made terrorism teh discussion and got more money for war. Africa got barely a drop in the bucket.

quote:

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Originally posted by Willowdale Wizard:
well, whatever we think of paul martin, i think bono's committment to AIDS activism and debt relief is genuine.

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Yes, but beyond that he's a grit. Therefore, he's evil.

quote:

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Hold on people. This fellows talkin' about waste management, something that affects the whole world!

Cor, here we go again.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Newbie:

...But not having heard of him is, um, unusual.

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I don't think it is unusual at all.

My old man was born in '45 and I'm pretty sure - to the best of his recollection - he has never heard of Bono or U2.

[ 06 November 2003: Message edited by: Kanada Dry ]

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Bono rarely attends partisan events, but DATA carefully considered the invitation, which offered an opportunity to speak directly to influential Canadians. And Bono will be looking for Canada to respond.

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Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:

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wow.

Alberta really is another dimension entirely.

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Originally posted by minimal:

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Anyway, where is it written that we must all be fans of some half-baked rock star just because he/she is trying to gain publicity by supporting good causes? Do I have to be a rock music fan to be left wing? Besides, this Bono character is going to the LIBERAL convention. Sounds to me like he just wants to jump on the Martin bandwagon.

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Originally posted by Wingnut:

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Is there evidence that Bono has gained tangible results?

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[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

quote:

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Ever hear of that song all the pop stars did to raise funds for famine in Ethiopia? (We are the World),

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Ooh, I remember it well. And I'm sure at the time people were saying, "Sure the whole enterprise is musically vomitous and disgustingly self-congratulatory, but hey, if they achieve results...!" (sorry)

Oddly enough, hunger in Africa is still with us; hunger would still be with us if Lionel Richie sang it at the Democratic convention; and I also rather doubt Bono buttering up the hordes about Paul Martin's 'vision' is going to help a single PWA.

Hey Albertans, I remember an interview where Preston Manning tried to prove how young and hip he was by expressing his admiration for Bono's band, which is called U2. I find it emblematic that FIFTEEN YEARS later, the political class still hasn't hit reload on their pop culture browser...

Anyway, to put this train of thought into the station one would have to demonstrate that Bono is in fact coming by to set the party policy on HIV, as opposed to allowing himself (or perhaps fulfilling some deep inner impulse) to be paraded in front of the cameras as a soul mate to that old goat crotch Martin.

Anyway: Dave Bleakney agrees with me!

Bono Bloody Bono

Can't resist pulling this quote (from the URL below) which suggests that his mission bears some, er, baggage:

"These politicians keep taking the lead on issues that really concern us, people who are what you might call the movement for change in the developing world."

Friends, he's talking about JEAN CHRETIEN...

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

quote:

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Ooh, I remember it well. And I'm sure at the time people were saying, "Sure the whole enterprise is musically vomitous and disgustingly self-congratulatory, but hey, if they achieve results...!" (sorry)

Oddly enough, hunger in Africa is still with us; hunger would still be with us if Lionel Richie sang it at the Democratic convention; and I also rather doubt Bono buttering up the hordes about Paul Martin's 'vision' is going to help a single PWA.
...
Bono Bloody Bono

Can't resist pulling this quote (from the URL below) which suggests that his mission bears some, er, baggage:

"These politicians keep taking the lead on issues that really concern us, people who are what you might call the movement for change in the developing world."

Friends, he's talking about JEAN CHRETIEN...

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What? With this cynical attitude we might as well all pack it in, dig our bunkers and forget about the rest of society. Of course celebrities aren't going to change the world with their promoting important causes, but a lot of them bring in big $'s, and awareness which is equally important, toward some really worthy issues. I don't really care if they're a##holes or just stupid as it looks like Bono might be. So many artists in the past and present were/are jerks; Beethovan, Wagner, sure even Bono, that doesn't mean that their work is irrelevant.

[ 07 November 2003: Message edited by: windymustang ]

And then there's the issue of context, as in what are we NOT focusing on at this here Liberal convention, as we listen to these good moral admonitions about somewhere else.

The advantage in the exchange is all Martin's. It seems so transparent to me.

If ye naysayers got a chance to give a good talking to Paul Martin or George W. about AIDS and debt relief in Africa, wouldn't you take it? Bono's in a position to do so, even if it is on their terms. Even if Paul Martin smiles politely at the cute little rockstar who's 'interested' in 'world affairs' while the anointed-one signs the latest WTO agreement, don't you think a few people tuning in at home will at least let the words 'African AIDS epidemic' and 'Crushing Third-World Debt' enter their vocabulary? Don't you think that this is a good thing?

quote:

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don't you think a few people tuning in at home will at least let the words 'African AIDS epidemic' and 'Crushing Third-World Debt' enter their vocabulary?

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If Paul Martin used those words at the Liberal convention, I would expect that usage to be suspect and opportunist unless it came with a concrete plan of action that would fly in the face of most existing Liberal policies. As it is, the words aren't even in the leader's mouth.

If, I dunno, Sass Jordan or someone decided to come to the Christian Heritage party convention to talk about gay rights, we wouldn't say, 'at least she's getting the message out.' We'd say, 'something is afoot.' Something more cynical than me, even!

Let's not bring Jagger into this, oh please! I'm not advocating that rock stars become investment bankers rather than take up causes. But remember James Brown singing "Say it Loud - I'm Black and I'm Proud?" "Get Up Get Into It and Get Involved?" Well, were those messages effectively propagated when he held a photo-op with Nixon? No they were brutally undermined. Same deal!

The spirit of rock and roll is in the streets, even if its body is held for ransom on the other side of the fence.

Here is what I am talking about. From Lester Bangs via Greil Marcus, now a CERTIFIED asshole (did you? Hear him go off on Chomsky?) But this really does capture the issue nicely, to me:

quote:

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The late Lester Bangs on the 1976 Second Annual Rock Music Awards telecast, hosted by Alice Cooper and Diana Ross:

The highlight of the evening was the Public Service Award. Alice Cooper complained that "rock music personalities are foremost and basically people -- contrary to rumor. People with the same dreams, desires and feelings as everyone else. They're ambitious but they're not selfish or self involved -- but caring!...and I can't read this card. Their careers are time-consuming, but they still invest whatever time they have in- --" Diana: " -- what we in the industry are most proud of -- the Public Service Award." They have Public Service Awards to Harry Chapin for contributing to World Hunger Year, and to Dylan for helping get Rubin "Hurricane" Carter out of jail....Then Diana administered the coup de grace: "But seriously, folks, there's an incredible movement growing in the United States; concerned citizens who believe that whales have the right to life. And through words and through music the team of David Crosby and Graham Nash express their own concern, by giving a special concert so that the whales are still alive. I think that is absolutely incredible and we honor them with our fifth Public Service Award...."

Alice made a crack about Flo and Eddie being there, speaking of whales, and Diana continued: "No, seriously, I do know that a lot of my friends are concerned about this area and it's something that I personally would like very much to be interested in."

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The whole article - it's about "We are the World" and is the second item down - is at:

An international moratorium on whaling and increased famine aid to Ethiopia. Saved some whales, saved some humans.

Of course the celebrities who endorsed those causes lended publicity to well-established campaigns. Campaigns led by people who may have, in fact, had lunch with an inappropriate politician or two while they were negotiating the moratorium or convincing the powers-that-be to extend their existing famine relief.

Personally, I think that before we allow anyone to do any good, anywhere, we need to run a background check on them to see if they've ever publically associated with anyone who is not on the approved list. If indeed they have ever associated with the politically incorrect, or have attempted to force change through contact with legitimate government (whose members of course cannot possibly be on the 'approved' list, due to the fact that they are in power and therefore are the enemy), we cannot allow them to do any good whatsoever. God forbid we ever lobby those in a position to change policies and fund those changes. Their partisan politics might pollute our cause and make it ... achievable.

[ 07 November 2003: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

quote:

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Now now.

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quote:

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While the world's peace movement was trying to stop the US invasion of Iraq:

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[ 07 November 2003: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

The US flag jacket was part of the infamous Superbowl half-time which was a sickening tribute to US jingoism, that Bono embraced and participated in with gusto.

[ 07 November 2003: Message edited by: JimmyBrogan ]

I agree with Jimmy, that was pretty gross of Bono.

[ 07 November 2003: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]

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Bono's sucking up to the Bush administration had exactly zero effect on policy.

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Rebecca, were you playing a subjugating imperatrix?

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I agree with Jimmy, that was pretty gross of Bono.

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Really, it isn't that I think Bono is great or that U2 is my favourite band (neither interest me much), but it really irks me, this whole idea of "one shouldn't be perceived to be fraternizing with the enemy when one is a dedicated activist" bullshit. Lobbyists for all kinds of horrendous crap suck government cock quite successfully. If it works, go for it. If it doesn't, and a handful of people who don't know who you are or what you're about think you're giving a partisan endorsement instead of lobbying for change, big deal. If they don't know squat about the celeb, then they don't have much effect, do they?

quote:

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quote: Rebecca, were you playing a subjugating imperatrix?

How'd you guess? And that's MS. Subjugating Imperiatrix to you.

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Rebecca, can you come with me to my dysfunctional family gathering next week? I could really use your brains and your MS. Subjugating Imperiatrix attitude to dis my sibs. You'll get a free ride of only 3800km across the prairies incl a slight detour, all the food you can eat, including my cookies and squares mmm, a number of nights in overcrowed guest rooms and plenty of FRIENDLY banter just like this. What do you say? Please, please

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

Yeah, Rebecca, I'm bowing out of this thread because I do not appreciate being told I have my head up my ass, no brain, etc. Sorry, but I'm not into playing games. I just have these opinions. I'll keep em to myself from now on, promise. Bye.
_______________________________________

Heard in the distance, "...stomp, stomp, stomp, mutter, mutter)

[ 07 November 2003: Message edited by: windymustang ]

quote:

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Originally posted by natas:
Yeah, Rebecca, I'm bowing out of this thread because I do not appreciate being told I have my head up my ass, no brain, etc. Sorry, but I'm not into playing games. I just have these opinions. I'll keep em to myself from now on, promise. Bye.

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And yeah, the thing about making your opinions public, is that you're going to get people who disagree with you. Don't like that? By all means, keep 'em to yourself.

[ 11 November 2003: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

Really, who gives a shit about what some movie/rock star thinks anyway?

Plus, the Liberals here must seem like socialists compared to our southern neighbours.

Right? Is that the point of all these anti Bono hissy fits?

Cranial-anal inversion is the kindliest assessment. Ideological self-interest abstracted into inhumanity comes closer.

I don't like who he gives political aid and comfort to, whether its Bush, Paul O'Neil, or Paul Martin. If your going to get in bed with these slime balls the least you could do is get some tangible results.

quote:

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Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:
The only people having a hissy fit are you and the other Bono apologists.

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No I'm not...it just ain't my style. And I don't have any profound thoughts, as you can see. But I do resent being called an apologist for Bono. I mean, we don't really know if his efforts will see any reward. A whole shitload of artists have been working on the AIDS Africa issue, including the late great Joe Strummer. It's gaining a bit of momentum, but it's going to be quite a while before tangible results are seen.

And if nothing tangible comes of all this pop star public awareness stuff, call me an apologist then. But I'm already seeing a bit of a groundswell - more coverage of the issue on TV for one. And if that results in some bucks being put towards even a few of the nearly 1 million children (or is it more now?) orphaned by AIDS, good. If it raises enough money to provide medications to a few thousand people who, if they were in Europe or North America, would probably survive for years and raise their children, good.

Ah, I see...it's an instant gratification thing.

You don't see tangible results. And what with you bein' on the ground in Africa and all of course you're in a position to know. Why don't you ask Stephen Lewis what he thinks about what Bono's doing? Or is Stephen Lewis tainted too since he's just as willing to meet with all those "unacceptable" types?

What I get from what you're saying is that basically, as far as you're concerned, current African AIDS related death rates are more acceptable than awareness raising and fund raising by pop stars who use their celebrity to meet with powerful people of whom you don't approve in their quest for action and money for the cause of AIDS relief in Africa.

That's some trade off.

That's just as ideologically blinkered as the religious far right wing nuts.

Enjoy your bed fellows.

[ 11 November 2003: Message edited by: banquosghost ]

I thought you a well meaning fellow banquethost, so I let slip your ealrlier diatribe:
"An AIDS in Africa activist who had no access to powerful people or organizations, no name recognition in the public arena, no media coverage but whose politics were explicitly and appropriately aligned would be more acceptable."

Such a person I would expect would be too busy saving lives to be bothered wasting their time kissing Paul Martin's ass.

Personally, I think Bono, if he wants, can attend every well guarded event that no African, not related to a favoured dictator, could get within a dozen miles off.

Bono, I think, is well meaning. But, as we know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

In my view, Bono couold accomplish far more educating and mobilizing his legions of fans who never have graced a polling booth and for whom AIDS is something you risk not using a condom and African is what precedes -American.

AIDS has been killing Africans for many years and the West has provided plenty of lip service while funding internicine wars in the interests of gaining control of valuable mineral rights.

There are many diseases killing Africans and all are ignored equally.

Just like Paul Martin, Homer Simpson got the Bono seal of approval by appearing on the same stage as Bono. Homer went on to win the election for sanitation commissioner with disastrous results.

Coincidentally, Jack Layton described in a February Globe and Mail article how Layton used the same Simpsons episode at a critical city council meeting. (The Adams mine proposal was eventually defeated, in large part due to the NDPers on Toronto Council.):

quote:

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I might be the only federal leader who has every Simpsons episode on tape, although I don't want to claim the credit for this -- this was done by my son. One time we were debating whether or not Toronto should send its garbage to the north, to the Kirkland Lake abandoned mine, I think it was called the Adams mine. It was a huge story, a national story: "Mel Lastman wants to send his garbage to an abandoned mine and dump it in there for 20 years."

I said to my son, "Wasn't there some Simpsons episode about that?" And he said, "Yeah, Homer was put in charge of garbage and put it in some mine."

He said "I have a copy," he went down and got it, ran it to the section and we played it. It was absolutely stunning, it was so accurate to what was going on.

So we showed it at a strategic moment of the debate -- because I was doing most of the speaking, we showed it during my wife [fellow Toronto city councillor] Olivia Chow's turn. We cued the guys upstairs who run the video, and there was nothing the deputy mayor could do about it at that point. It was running, and we had tipped off the media about it and they were there with their cameras all lined up, so there's Olivia speaking and you could see on the screen up above Homer shoving garbage with a bulldozer down a mine. And they make lots of money, but suddenly the garbage starts popping up everywhere, and it just makes the point you can't just put the stuff out of sight, out of mind. We used that little bit of satire because it's a very efficient technique to deliver social commentary.

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[ 12 November 2003: Message edited by: Paul Gross ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Gross:

Just like Paul Martin, Homer Simpson got the Bono seal of approval by appearing on the same stage as Bono. Homer went on to win the election for sanitation commissioner with disastrous results.

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quote:

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Originally posted by banquosghost:
wingnut, you're absolutely right. It's all a waste of time.

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quote:

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But schmoozing with politicians who will use your image to advance their own political careers while not giving a shit about what matters to you is, indeed, a waste of time.

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There are a whole bunch of ways to approach activism, to conduct public awareness campaigns. When it comes to a campaign to save lives, how significant to the results have to be before we say, "okay, sidling up to that sleezeball politician was a good idea after all."

Even dilettantes accomplish.

Martin will be facing election in about six months and it doesn't hurt his optics among the Much fans to be seen with Bono. No, it won't get him elected but it won't hurt his chances either. Wouldn't Bono do better to be seen with a leadership hopeful who might actually do something aboout AIDS?

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You may only campaign in approved ways...you may only approach approved people...you have too much money and too much fame to make a valid contribution...you aren't "left enough" for us.

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Edited to add: as far as the rest of it goes ... how is it that Bono has the power to influence people's perceptions of dirtbag political leaders, but is powerless to effect change in desirable ways? Or is it just that the guy's got all this influence when he does something you don't like, like glad-handing right wing politicians, but in all other respects is powerless to influence public opinion in good ways?

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No, it won't get him elected but it won't hurt his chances either

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[ 12 November 2003: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

...:because after being one of the coolest, promising and distinctive rock bands of the '80's, U2 ended that phase of their career with "Rattle and Hum" and became, yawn, whatever it is that they are now.

Edited to add: ...and I blame Bono.

If his hob-nobbing with biwigs is helping, great! If not, didn't he sing (most realistically IMO): "I don't believe that rock and roll is gonna change the world" --or something to that effect (my Rattle and Hum CD was stolen)?

[ 12 November 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]

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and became, yawn, whatever it is that they are now.

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[ 12 November 2003: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

I was on the phone with his people just 30 mins. ago and I said, "what gives? I'm a nobody. I can't help get Paul elected. Why won't he see me. I have a very important message about AIDS in Africa." And do you know what his press secretary said? Do you? He said "Mr. Martin is too busy to meet with everyone. Perhaps Mr. Chretien can accomodate you."

Can ya beleive it?

quote:

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Originally posted by WingNut:
Do you remember Bono here for the G-8 in Alberta? He added a credibility where there wasn't one.

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Actually, I don't remember Bono here for the G-8. I do remember Bruce Cockburn playing in Riley Park at a gathering the City tried to use every trick available to ensure it couldn't go ahead. Are you sure you aren't getting something mixed-up?

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

But you argue he has no influence and yet here we are dedicating an entire thread to him indicating he does have influence.

And the point of my sarcasm (and no I don't get tired of using it) is to show without influence he wouldn't even be welcome.

There is a question, yes, of the degree of influence. But certainly there is influence.

And if you didn't twist my words, re: degree of influence, to suit your argument I would have no need to resort to sarcasm.

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Actually, I don't remember Bono here for the G-8.

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quote:

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But you argue he has no influence and yet here we are dedicating an entire thread to him indicating he does have influence.

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I actually don't think his photo-ops make much of a difference as far as public opinion goes, because he's schmoozing with people who're already in power...they don't really need much from him, nor he from them. It's just a bit of gratuitious PR on both sides. But I do think he can provide some visibility for issues that need it. That's where he does have some political currency in the arena of public opinion.

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And if you didn't twist my words, re: degree of influence, to suit your argument I would have no need to resort to sarcasm

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Was he actually there? I don't know. There was a lot of talk that both he and Geldof would be there and, in fact, Geldof siad they would be theer. But were they? I don't know I stopped paying attention.

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C'mon Rebecca, sure it does. Do you remember Bono here for the G-8 in Alberta? He added a credibility where there wasn't one. Middle-class Canadians could go to bed knowing the plight of AIDS wracked Africa would finally get a fair hearing because Chretien and Bono told them so.

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My advice: if you think Bono should cancel his appearance for political reasons (why would an activist want to be associated with a crony like Martin?), contact his agency and tell them what you think. Why not link them up to articles about how Martin scammed Canadians with his shipping line? DATA can be reached at:

General [email protected]

To contact DATA Europe, email [email protected]

For press enquiries please email [email protected]

US press may call 202-639-8010

European press may contact DATA Europe at: [email protected]

Post any messages you send here - I'd love to see 'em! Have fun!

[ 13 November 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

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Maybe Bono should pay you a visit, and loan you a bit of his *cough* credibility.

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Is this Mr. Bono worth all the aggro?

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Wingnut is anti-power and anti-celebrity. So whatever power or celebrity attempt is self-serving and corrupt by definition. Doesn't matter who they are or what they attempt.

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Having never met you know so much about me. Or maybe like some other babblers you prefer sanctimonious value judgements to fact.

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He really is a wingnut.

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quote:

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Originally posted by banquosghost:
Wingnut is anti-power and anti-celebrity.

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But but but ... WingNut is a celebrity.

quote:

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Originally posted by audra estrones:
I'm more disapponted in Sloan and Ron Sexsmith and Daniel Lanois.

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quote:

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Wingy, Rebecca.

Is this Mr. Bono worth all the aggro?

After all, even Cher dumped him for the Allman Bros.

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I'm more disapponted in Sloan and Ron Sexsmith and Daniel Lanois.

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We can assume that by now Daniel Lanois has become used to his own power and privilege. When wearing his production hat his rates are one hundred thousand dollars per hour.

Short of becoming a Jehovah's Witness Ron Sexsmith can do no wrong. Okay, if he starts shilling for the Alliance Party I'll look into getting some electricity.

To zap his beautiful songs from my head.

The guy is one of the best songwriters of all time and he's about as known as fIREHOSE* in this country.

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Celebrity is a disease based on admiration for anyone who has amasses great wealth.

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(Hi, Michael Ondaatje! Nothing personal here. Love your books -- Billy and Skin of a Lion will live for all time, and I like that thought.)

To me, the problem with North American celebrity culture is North American celebrity culture. We can all see what it does to each new generation. The vast majority of people who go through North American high schools, watch NA TV, and listen to NA music learn to live self-conscious, insecure, and yearning for fantasies. They just plain do.

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I for one can't stand those stupid fucking blue shooting glasses he wears.

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Oi! How do you know they aren't Optative Glasses???

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The vast majority of people who go through North American high schools, watch NA TV, and listen to NA music learn to live self-conscious, insecure, and yearning for fantasies. They just plain do.

That is a political problem.

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I sometimes really wish I lived in the Federation utopia of Star Trek, even though Babylon 5 was a better show.

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http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15798&highlight=star+trek

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Naturally, any sane person wishes to live in the Star Trek world, but Babylon 5 simply had a better plot.

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Enterprise's plot sucks. I'm sorry, it does very little that Babylon 5 did well. Babylon 5 only brought in real time travel in season 4...after justifying it very early on. Planned. The 'temporal cold war' of Enterprise is just an ST gadget thing.

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What Enterprise had the potential to do was to highlight intercultural contact, since it's supposed to be about Earth's first forays into limited-FTL-reachable space. It occasionally did this, but not as much as I would have liked.

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I'm more disapponted in Sloan and Ron Sexsmith and Daniel Lanois

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