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Topic: What if your kids want to join something you don't approve of?
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 06 September 2008 02:38 PM
quote: Originally posted by M. Spector: Are you really asking babblers for advice on how to raise your own kid?
No. I made the thread title more general in case anyone else was interested in discussing their own experiences or opinions on where they or other parents should draw the line when it comes to stuff their kids want to join. It's this weird thing, M. Spector, called discussion and interaction and relating to each other's experiences and talking about our lives. Seems a few other people have caught onto my intent. [ 06 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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ElizaQ
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9355
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posted 06 September 2008 04:54 PM
Michelle I don't have kids but I was always an 'I always wanted to join everything' type kid coupled with being the type that if I'm told I can't do something I want to do it even more type kid. Drove my parents crazy. What's funny is that around your sons age I did really want to join air cadets and until you brought this up I had totally forgotten about it. It was solely being enamored with the whole flying aspect. At that age for me at least it had very little to do with anything military. I don't even think I realized that it was really connected with the military. My parents more then likely dealt with it like they did everything else and asked questions and went through exactly what joining would entail in terms of time and effort etc and to make sure it's something I really wanted to. They never said I couldn't do things, unless they were completely ridiculous but I also realized as I got older that they were quite good at the more subtle guiding type tactics for things that they really didn't think were that great or they would just stall a little to see if it's something I really wanted to do and hope I would get over it. I guess this could be considered kind of sneaky way of going about it but generally the point was to get me to think. Actually there was one thing that I was told blatantly I couldn't join. The day I announced that I really wanted to play hockey and my Mom's reaction was "No! There's no way I'm getting up at 5am to take you to practices. Just forget it." Meanies. In general they were quite supportive and allowed me to make my own mistakes if I really was positive that 'this is what I want to do' I think that part must be really hard. Actually I know it was hard because we've had conversations about it in my late 20's. My Mom said that her goal was to raise independent women and thinkers and I think she did a great job but it's a balancing act. In my younger days and more naive days I actually came within a hairs breath of actually joining the military. I wanted to be a paramedic and for some crazy reason thought that was the route to take. My parents didn't say no or do really type of real disuading but I had an inkling that the didn't really like the idea. I was too old for them to tell me what to do but on the evening before I was to go in an get the final medical I was visiting and while sitting knitting her afghan she just quietly asked, "So have you really thought about the whole thing that you can die and what that means to everyone?" And that was it. A perfect example of her 'guiding' type questions. She knows me so well. No judgment just a question. She was right I really hadn't thought much about it and I couldn't get it out of my mind. I was sure I was okay with dying (at that time) but hadn't thought about anyone else. I didn't go to the appointment. It was a complete wakeup call. I think because they had always helped me think about things in a reflective sort of way that even though I was clueless about what a lot of being in the military actually meant I was capable of working through different consequences of different choices. My Mom cried when I told her I changed my mind. Thank goodness for my Mom. That would have been a huge mistake and with the views I have now on things I can't even comprehend the thought process that got me to thinking it was a good idea in the first place.
From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005
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Polly Brandybuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7732
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posted 06 September 2008 05:30 PM
quote: Originally posted by Boom Boom: WScouting can be fun, when you have leaders who aren't tripping on authority.
That's been my experience. If you can get past the obvious I lead you follow and we all bow down to god and the queen.....scouting can be a pile of fun. Winter camps, snowshoeing, hiking, swimming, taking meals to seniors, bottle drives, sleeping on gym floors...my kids (boys and girl) loved it. I am lucky I guess, in that it's a small town and I know the leaders pretty well. And I know that they don't take the ritual stuff seriously at all, it's just what you need to do to be a cub. I would let my boys join air cadets if they wanted. It can't hurt them and it beats sitting in front of the tv twiddling the xbox.
From: To Infinity...and beyond! | Registered: Dec 2004
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bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938
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posted 06 September 2008 06:12 PM
Here's a secret about my childhood. I was a Brownie, and later, I "flew up" to Girl Guides. Yes, I earned the frikkin wings, okay? And yes, I was brainwashed into the paramilitary BS that is the guiding community. What did I learn, that I can remember 30 years later? Well, I met the baddest girls at Brownies and Guides. We ran around the church, checking out the cool towers and other places we weren't supposed to go to. I also learned CPR for the first time, and how to build a properly ventilated and fueled campfire. No, it didn't warp me for life (although if pressed, I believe The Guide's Promise and the ten guide laws are engrained in my brain somewhere. "A guide's honour is to be trusted, a guide is loyal....." ) but it taught me stuff about authority that I had to relearn years later. But come to think of it, not anything different than the public school system taught me about authority. I did earn some cool badges, though. The multicoloured guide ones were pretty. And while I was a Brownie, I was a "fairy, glad and gay". Heehee!
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005
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ElizaQ
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9355
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posted 06 September 2008 07:04 PM
quote: Originally posted by bigcitygal: Here's a secret about my childhood. I was a Brownie, and later, I "flew up" to Girl Guides. Yes, I earned the frikkin wings, okay? And yes, I was brainwashed into the paramilitary BS that is the guiding community. What did I learn, that I can remember 30 years later? Well, I met the baddest girls at Brownies and Guides. We ran around the church, checking out the cool towers and other places we weren't supposed to go to. I also learned CPR for the first time, and how to build a properly ventilated and fueled campfire. No, it didn't warp me for life (although if pressed, I believe The Guide's Promise and the ten guide laws are engrained in my brain somewhere. "A guide's honour is to be trusted, a guide is loyal....." ) but it taught me stuff about authority that I had to relearn years later. But come to think of it, not anything different than the public school system taught me about authority. I did earn some cool badges, though. The multicoloured guide ones were pretty. And while I was a Brownie, I was a "fairy, glad and gay". Heehee!
Well since you said it. I'll say it to I went through everything Brownies all the way up to being a leader for a couple of years. I've never thought of it in terms of paramilitary but maybe that's more because of the nature of the leaders and the groups that I was in or yes I was brainwashed! The reason I loved it was because of all the outdoor stuff and all of the camping. It's doubtful that I would have had any of that otherwise. At eight years old I could light a fire and cook my own food and making gadgets out of sticks and string was cool. Plus I'll admit it I really liked singing though are favorites were all the naughty ones. "One by one lets have some fun in the bedroom, ba dum.." "And Granny swinging on the outhouse door" At 14 in order to get all around cord I planned a 5 day camp for 6 other younger guides which included doing everything, including all of the shopping. I can't discount though that all of the leadership and organizational skills I learned haven't made a difference in where I am today. With all that said I wasn't a goodie two shoes in the slightest and me a couple of other girls got ourselves into some pretty funny messes and drove some of the leaders nuts. Somewhere around fifteen we decided screw all this all girls stuff and joined a Venturer group that went co-ed. They had mass camps 4 times a year with dozens of other groups from the area. So lets see..first real kiss? Um..Scout Camp. First time smoking pot?..Scout Camp consisting of hot boxing in a one of those small dome tents and whole bag of oreo cookies in -20 degree weather. Oh and first time I was on a snowboard as well, this before snowboarding was even legal on mountains. First time getting drunk? Yep..Scout camp..I still have a scar on my hand from a run in with a campfire. But hey we really were good we got all of the awards and badges. And just to add to your recollection... "loyal is she, helpful to others, a friend to all and sister to each other. A Guide is courteous, kind to animals, lord disobey (I don't think that is right but thats how I always sung it which is kinda funny now) anyways..'helpful and thrifty too in thought word and deed'. LOL scary that I can remember that. [ 06 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]
From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 06 September 2008 07:33 PM
Shall we sing?"On my honour, I will try There's a duty to be done and I say 'Aye' There's a reason here, and a reason above My honour is to try and my duty is to love." I belonged to the Brownies briefly and quit. Then I moved to another place when I was older and joined the Girl Guides. I didn't like it either so I quit. Just so not my style, I guess, even then. I was a pudgy kid and looked like a freakin blueberry in that dumb uniform. And the particular Guide troupe I was in was kind of bitchy and gossipy and backbitey. I know, that sounds like a sexist stereotype, but unfortunately, that troupe was the embodiment of a sexist stereotype, which is probably why I hated it!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938
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posted 06 September 2008 07:47 PM
quote: ElizaQ: making gadgets out of sticks and string was cool
. I think I learned cat's cradle in guides. Was never able to parlay that into a career.Also, these things called "God's Eyes" which I thought was "godzides" because I never saw the name written down. So there's the religious part. They were made of yarn and sticks, and I never knew what to do with them when I was done. Kinda like lanyards in summer camp. I remember in guides there'd be this solemn ceremony at the beginning to raise the flag, and another solemn one to take it down. Even the silliest of us weren't allowed to giggle or poke at each other at these times. I remember "don't let the flag touch the ground, if you do then it has to be burned because then it's no good". I never understood that. We sang "taps" at the end, while the flag was lowered and folded. Holy fuck this is scary, all this remembering. The silly and raunchy songs were fun though. I didn't smoke anything, pot or otherwise, until years later. Also years later I read The Boy Scout's handbook, and realized they had just changed all the pronouns for guides. It was word for word. I was surprised and disappointed. [ 06 September 2008: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005
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ElizaQ
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9355
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posted 06 September 2008 08:13 PM
quote: Originally posted by Michelle: Shall we sing?"On my honour, I will try There's a duty to be done and I say 'Aye' There's a reason here, and a reason above My honour is to try and my duty is to love." I belonged to the Brownies briefly and quit. Then I moved to another place when I was older and joined the Girl Guides. I didn't like it either so I quit. Just so not my style, I guess, even then. I was a pudgy kid and looked like a freakin blueberry in that dumb uniform. And the particular Guide troupe I was in was kind of bitchy and gossipy and backbitey. I know, that sounds like a sexist stereotype, but unfortunately, that troupe was the embodiment of a sexist stereotype, which is probably why I hated it!
Oh wow, I'm hitting a bit a nostalgia overload here. I loved that song, though to be honest I didn't really understand what fully meant until years later. It was the tune. I find it really pretty. Still do. The message in the verses ain't half bad though. People don't need to know my name If I've done any harm then I'm to blame If I've helped another then I've helped me And I've opened up my eyes to see. I've tucked away a song or two If you're feeling low, there's one for you If you need a friend, then I will come And there's many more where I come from. Come with me where the fire burns bright We can see even better by a candle's light We'll find more meaning in a campfire's glow Than we've ever learned in a year or so. With all of that though if I had daughters right now I would be hesitant to put or promote them being in it just because my experience was pretty good and I got so much out of it. It's so dependent on the leaders and what the groups actually do. For me the most worthwhile stuff and the activities that taught me most about being independent and were confidence building were all the outdoors stuff. To me most of the other parts were just the fluff that you had to do to get to those good parts. If the leaders aren't skilled in this area then it doesn't happen. And honestly I think a lot of it was dumbed down. Even when I was in my late teens and became a leader I noticed a difference. I was the only one who knew all of those skills and that was my job. Yet the women I worked with were absolutely appalled that I would even consider teaching 9 or 10 year olds how to light a fire or a camp stove or heaven forbid not be right in there basically doing it for them. Using a knife? No, no that's dangerous. Even chopping vegetables was a big deal. I actually thought I remembered wrong. That my own memories of what we were doing at that age were overblown. They weren't I checked with my Mom. Then they started redoing a lot of the requirements for the badges and making them easier. To me it appeared that more emphasis was placed on the number of badges and connected with self-esteem. That allowing the girls to get lots easier was better then fewer badges with more challenge to get them. I found that unsettling. To me it seemed that somehow from the time I started to the time I became a leader that the feelings changed around what kids and in this case girls of course, were reasonably capable of doing. In my opinion it actually devolved. That was years ago. I have no idea what it's like now. I'd have to do some serious vetting before I'd even recommend it to people now.
From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005
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Papal Bull
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7050
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posted 07 September 2008 05:14 PM
I never got "into" Scouts. My family always went camping and I was more of a bookworm than anything. However, I hopped onto things like the wrestling team and took part in little school events. I was in Beavers or whatever it was. I quit after I wasn't graduate to Wolf Cubs with the rest of my troop because of some stupid numbers game and then suddenly I was the oldest one there with none of my friends.By the time I'd have been a Cadet I started doing other things like getting into the local music scene and such, and just didn't have the time for it. Eventually, when I had friends encouraging me to join, I made the choice of starting to become involved with the NDP. I went to a few of their meets and stuff and saw what it was all about - and it did interest me. However, it never popped up on my itinerary. Mind you, I don't think that the NDP and my other activities exerted the influences that one usually assumes that they do upon the young person (why, here, I am called names usually reserved for our good friends in the CONPC rather regularly now). I think that, if anything, the rules of the home really rule the young - my family's ideas and such are deeply entrenched within my brain at this point. If you work with your kid, as my parents did, he can have any interest that he wants and will still be all on "the level".
From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004
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Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448
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posted 07 September 2008 07:26 PM
My dad was a naval cadet and was a reserve officer later on. He felt the experience did a lot for him. I expect that I'd have been encouraged to join had I been male. Brownies was a bust. I was in Brownies for a few years and in the year before we were to "fly up" to Guides the Brown Owl made several other girls who were younger than me "sixers" and "seconders", completely forgetting that she had assured me that seniority counted. I confronted her on lying to me in front of a large group of parents (with my mother's blessing and encouragement). That was the end of Brownies for me. I must have been, what, 9 years old? From the parental perspective, I've only had one close call on the activities front -- when Ms B was 6 she wanted to take ballet. I have a problem with the dance thing -- many dance classes have elements of the worst of female culture, there's the body image thing... And just, ew. Anyway, I finally agreed to go to an open house at the Conservatory to talk to the teachers. Fortunately, the strings program was set up across the aisle and B was much taken with the cello. I offered her the choice, and much to my surprise and delight she opted for cello lessons. She's been playing for 5 years now and is really good at it. The following year we explored the idea that kung fu offers all the benefits (grace, flexibility, strength) and some extra value. She's been in kung fu for four years now and has zero desire to trade in her broadsword for a tutu. Maybe the air cadet thing is a passing fancy, but I'd ask a lot of questions, conversationally, to find out what the appeal is and then find similar options that are maybe not so militaristic or more in line with the values you can support. Maybe you'll find a better alternative.
From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722
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posted 09 September 2008 07:53 PM
I was in the Air Cadets for many years and even made sargeant! I was even accepted to RMC but turned it down.The Air Cadets was really cool for me, gave me acess to exercise and the outdoors which I normally avoided, camp was cool away from the parents and we would learn useful skills (not to mention paid pilot lessons and glider pilot lessons). I don't think anyone in my entire squadron ever entered the forces, though several went into the reserves (but again, they would have anyway) ETA I was forced to join after being caught shoplifting, me and my buddy. So I dreaded the joining but really enjoyed it, except of course, for the inevitable politics over promotions, which is why I left. [ 09 September 2008: Message edited by: Bacchus ]
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 10 September 2008 07:35 PM
Yeah, that's true, Tommy and Jacob.That example hits home, Jacob, because my son used to attend church regularly with his father for a long time after I stopped going. I used to wonder whether I'd have to deprogram him with regards to homophobia and intolerance against other religions and such. But no, I haven't had to because he's got a lot of outside influences as well, hears me talk about gay and lesbian friends quite naturally, knows that I don't share the religious beliefs he hears at church (and therefore realizes that it's okay for other people to not believe what he does about religion.) Plus he goes to a very diverse school, so he has lots of exposure to other religions and cultures. So I'm pretty sure that if he heard any bigotry at church, he'd filter it through what he has experienced in his life, or he'd ask me or his dad about it and get the real story from at least one of us, if not both.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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