quote:

---

The president of Iran is the most odious example of this new state-sanctioned anti-Semitism.

---

MacShane trying to single out racism of Jews as exceptional. Every example he provides of the "new anti-semitism" are run-of-the-mill racism and bigotry commonly experienced by any immigrant group or visible minority cultural group.

His purpose is clearly the same bait and switch that tries to equate criticism of the apartheid state of Israel with blanket anti-semitism.

quote:

---

More worrisome was what we described as anti-Jewish discourse, a mood and tone whenever Jews are discussed, whether in the media, at universities, among the liberal media elite or at dinner parties of modish London. To express any support for Israel or any feeling for the right of a Jewish state to exist produces denunciation, even contempt.

---

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?=74&ItemID=13696

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]

quote:

---

South African Minister of Safety Ronnie Kasrils: Let us unanimously extend our solidarity and support to the forty-two members of the Palestinian Legislative Council, including the Speakers of the West Bank and Gaza, who together with ten Ministers have been summarily detained without trial, most for nearly a year, by the Israeli security forces. This is a shocking illustration of Israel's disrespect for Parliamentary democracy, the law and basic human rights so reminiscent of what we suffered under apartheid. We call for their immediate and unconditional release; and all prisoners held by both sides.

In support of these demands let us join with the people of our country, and the international Community, in the solidarity marches, rallies and demonstrations this week, the 40th Anniversary of Israel’s unjust occupation. And we make it clear to our Jewish community; these peaceful and disciplined actions are aimed solely at that government. The struggle for freedom and justice is against a system and not a people.

Let me conclude with the words of President (Nelson) Mandela, who declared in 1998 during the visit to South Africa by Chairman Yasser Arafat:

"We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians."

---

I guess that makes Jewish MP and Minister Ronnie Kasrils as well as former President and global hero Nelson Mandela anti-Semites in the eyes of some. Yawn.

Only fools would claim it did.

Unfortunately, there is vast antisemitism within the Arab world. It is perhaps a consequence of the establishment of Israel, but I have too often heard full-scale denunciations of "The Jew" to believe that the critism is necessarily properly directed at Israel, and not Jews generally.

As with many babble threads these days, which are laughably hypocritical, there is a double standard concerning Israel. For example, one would not go far on babble to find criticism of Israel for violations of international law.

THIS IS QUITE PROPER. ISRAEL HAS REGULARLY VIOLATED INTERNATIONAL LAW.

However, the Correct Line seems to be to ignore all violations of international law by Arab countries. Only Designated Enemies of the People such ad myself will ever post thing like this on babble. It violates the Correct Line.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeff house:

but I have too often heard full-scale denunciations of "The Jew" to believe that the critism is necessarily properly directed at Israel, and not Jews generally.

---

Where have you heard this, read this, or seen this? Do you have any back up, or is it just that someone whispered something about 'the jews' in your ear whilst walking down the street?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeff house:

However, the Correct Line seems to be to ignore all violations of international law by Arab countries. Only Designated Enemies of the People such ad myself will ever post thing like this on babble. It violates the Correct Line.

---

Which countries are you takling about? Are you talking about Hezbollah, who isn't a country or a government?

You're trying to hold Israel to the standard of a terrorist group, which isn't fair. Anytime an arab country violates an international law (or in Iraq's case, doesn't, but there were enough lies about it) they get threatened with attack from the US.

There is some potent stuff in this article, such as

quote:

---

The Polish politician, Maciej Marian Giertych, recently published a pamphlet under the auspices of the European Parliament that attacked Jews. No action has been taken against him. France and Germany have seen anti-Jewish attacks. Some references to Jews in the Lithuanian press do not bear translating.

---

quote:

---

Synagogues attacked. Jewish schoolboys jostled on public transportation. Rabbis punched and knifed. British Jews feeling compelled to raise millions to provide private security for their weddings and community events.

---

It is not the information itself which is not listened to, it is you. You are a one-trick pony, and this is your one trick.

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]

quote:

---

Unfortunately, there is vast antisemitism within the Arab world. It is perhaps a consequence of the establishment of Israel, but I have too often heard full-scale denunciations of "The Jew" to believe that the critism is necessarily properly directed at Israel, and not Jews generally.

---

It is always acceptable to speak of Arab anti-semitism but rarely is the other side of the coin mentioned: Anti-Arab racism from Jewish Israelis and supporters.

Please, show me the quote. And if you can't put up, then shut up.

Petsy started a thread calling babblers anti-semites. Yes, yes, he did. He did it in the usual slimy, weaselly way, saying that this article (which says that critics of Israel are anti-semites) is something that babblers, many of whom are critics of Israel, need to read. In other words, the same old Lakesh-Mishei-Macabee babble "look deep inside yourself for your inner antisemite" smearjob. Petsy is continuing a not-so-fine babble tradition. And of course, we're rising to the bait.

I simply got to the point in the article where critics of Israel were called antisemites, and I read no further. As I said before: this is just so 2002 on babble. Boring. Predictable.

That doesn't mean I support acts of anti-semitism like knifing rabbis and assaulting Jews. It doesn't even mean I support suicide bombing. It just means that we've seen this before and we're not bothering.

Wouldn't it be great if we could look at a thread starting like this and just completely ignore it? Not give people like Petsy the satisfaction? Imagine what would happen if people just froze this sort of bullshit out. Just didn't respond at all.

quote:

---

I'm trying to understand the point that some people are trying to make. Like just because Jews are not the ONLY people to face discrimination, there's something wrong with highlighting the existence of anti-Jewish sentiments. Fine. Next time someone posts an article about bigotry against Muslims or Blacks, i guess we can all just roll over and go to sleep and dismiss it because "lots of other people also get discriminated against".

---

Incidentally, the article does also say the following:

quote:

---

We made clear that criticism of actions of Israeli politicians was not off-limits. On the contrary, we noted that some of the strongest criticisms of Israeli policy come from Israeli campuses, journalists and political activists, and from the Jewish intellectual elite of many countries.

---

quote:

---

You know it's not as if there is a zero-sum game and that somehow the more concern you express about anti-semitism, the less concern there is left over about other forms of racism and bigotry.

---

I think that those who are highly critical of the policies of the current Israeli government ought to go out of their way to express the total opposition to any form of anti-semitism and should be vigorous watchdogs for any anti-semites trying to infiltrate the pro-Palestinian movement.

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]

quote:

---

I agree. So then it seems to me that when an article is posting clearly documenting a rising tide of anti-semitism

---

quote:

---

I know NO ONE who's walking around talking about 'the jews'.

---

Okay then. That wasn't what Petsy seemed to be implying in the opening post, considering most babblers are in Canada.

I'm sure that anti-semitism does exist in Canada, though more from the usual WASPs who think "there goes the neighbourhood" when someone named Goldenberg buys a house on their block, plus a few fanatics in Quebec who hate anyone who can't trace their lineage to Louis Hebert in the 17th century.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
Since when does a phenomenon have to exist in Canada for it to be an allowable topic of discussion on babble??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
Denis MacShane a former Labor Minister from the British House of Commons has written an insightful piece on anti-Semitism in Europe. We should all take heed.

---

This is the same British ruling class which produced the Balfour Declaration of 1917 (promising compliant and pro-British Jews a "homeland" carved out of their colonial empire) - then appeased Hitler at Munich - then left a legacy of war and hatred on its departure from the Middle East (as it did in India and elsewhere). They weren't too aware of what Hitler was doing to the Jews in the 1930s and 40s, but they now see a huge rising tide of attacks against Jews in Europe (!!!???) - primarily taking the form, of course, of attacks against Israel.

BTW: I'm curious as to what people would do in the following situation. Let's say that there was some demo in Toronto outside the Israeli consulate protesting Israel's policies and you decide to take part. Let's say that upon arrival you see a group of people waving signs showing stars of david superimposed on swastikas and yelling "death to the Jews". Do you...

a) ignore them and take part in the demo,
b) walk away shaking your head and have nothing to do with the demo or
c) try to see if there is anyone in charge who can tell these people they are persona non grata and if that doesn't work physically destroy their signs and threaten to have them charged with hate crimes?

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
The British "ruling class" of which you speak were all Tories. MacShane is from the Labour Party and has a long history in the British left.

---

Yeah, so did Tony Blair. So did Mussolini in the Italian Left. I judge this creep MacShane by his actions, not his "credentials". His actions place him squarely in the imperial traditions of the British ruling class. Any Jew that turns their back on a character like this has learned nothing from our history.

quote:

---

BTW: I'm curious as to what people would do in the following situation. Let's say that there was some demo in Toronto outside the Israeli consulate protesting Israel's policies and you decide to take part. Let's say that upon arrival you see a group of people waving signs showing stars of david superimposed on swastikas and yelling "death to the Jews". Do you...

a) ignore them and take part in the demo,
b) walk away shaking your head and have nothing to do with the demo or
c) try to see if there is anyone in charge who can tell these people they are persona non grata and if that doesn't work physically destroy their signs and threaten to have them charged with hate crimes?

---

Easy answer: (c).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
Oh. So what you're saying is that it's really not relevant to the situation in Canada?

Okay then. That wasn't what Petsy seemed to be implying in the opening post, considering most babblers are in Canada.

Thanks for the clarification.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
.

Petsy started a thread calling babblers anti-semites.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
We should all take heed.

---

This very specifically implies that we are either heading down, or going to head down the same path.

I honestly doubt that the paid moderator would allow someone to deny that anti-black racism is a problem (in Canada anayway), and rightly so.

1. I re-read the original post and Michelle ... I think you are over reacting

2. Petsy settle down. Michelle might get carried away from time to time but she has a right to since as the moderator she deals with way too much crap. Including sock-puppets of the past who accused babblers of anti-semitism on a regular basis

quote:

---

Originally posted by quelar:

This very specifically implies that we are either heading down, or going to head down the same path.

Or at least that's how it reads to me. Sorry if I'm misreading, but it definitely sounds like 'we' is directed at 'us'.

---

It's a lie, and we need to shout that lie down.

Once pro-zionists accept that it's not about the 'jews' and that it's about a nation treating another people like useless bags of flesh, then we can start having a reasonable debate about it.

The person who wrote this article is using that same arguement and frankly I've yet to see numbers that agree that there's a 'rise of anti-semetism' anywhere.

Having said that, I agree with johnpauljones, let's get back to the issue.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
Oh, and solidarity4ever should STFU about our "paid moderator" and go post somewhere else - what a rude and uncivilized character. Learn some manners.

---

"Paid" implies professional, or at least competent. Why a competent mod would allow comments that minimize the seriousness of anti-semitism baffles me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
BTW: I'm curious as to what people would do in the following situation. Let's say that there was some demo in Toronto outside the Israeli consulate protesting Israel's policies and you decide to take part....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:

"Paid" implies professional, or at least competent. Why a competent mod would allow comments that minimize the seriousness of anti-semitism baffles me.

I will ignore your bizarre tirade against me. You obviously have 'issues'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

You don't get to be the new kid in the playground and start off by peeing in the sandbox.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:
I will ignore your bizarre tirade against me. You obviously have 'issues'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:

I've watched this site for a while and I think I've figured out how things work. I only recently signed up so I could start posting.

---

Apparently not.

Please keep your urine and bile in your own sandbox, tyvm.

quote:

---

Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
This is a community and a family and we have a bad habit of rallying around our members.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:

That is a very curious statement, because I did see people rallying, or rather circling, around Petsy. Almost like a swarming on a Toronto street.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:

That is a very curious statement, because I did see people rallying, or rather circling, around Petsy. Almost like a swarming on a Toronto street.

---

Petsy is a long-time active poster. You aren't. At least not here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:
Fair enough. Nothing says we have to like evryone we meet. Would you care to explain why you don't like me? You don't have to, obviously. I'm just curious. I can't think of anything I've said to you that would make you feel that way, but I could be mistaken.

---

Sure. You ridiculed our moderator - showed contempt for her. If you apologize, sincerely, I may revise my view of you.

ETA: Likewise, JPJ, I'll be back on track after this.

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

There has historically been a "presence" on babble (speaking of paid professionals) which has made it it's business to try to malign the left in general as being anti-semite, as much criticism of Israeli gov't policy is seen as coming from the left, and certainly for years has been articulated here on babble. This "presence" comes replete with it's own greek chorus.

Petsy did not utter the phrase "babblers are anti-semites". There are those here who's ability to provide themselves with plausable deniability when making a point is subtly awsome. (I've picked up a few pointers from them myself.) Many who have been on this board for a while however will read between the lines on that one once they've read the article. The salient parts were all quoted above in the first few posts.

I thought this thread was going to croak on it's own when I last checked in at about 10:30. clearly it didn't. It deserves to.

quote:

---

I think that everyone needs to count to 10 and smoke a doob or drink a merlot depending on your wishes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
What an utter and absurd charge. Either you are totally paranoid or in another universe. I posted an article from the Washington Post on a provocative issue. You Michelle have made it into something totally different and shame on you and any of your pals here that support this ugly charge.

---

Pardon me. "Strongly implied" then. Your comment that we should all "take heed" of an article that says that criticizing Israel is anti-semitism is a pretty strong implication.

johnpauljones has hit the nail on the head about why I reacted the way I did.

unionist, I definitely don't think that antisemitism is solved. I don't think there is no problem with it whether here or in Europe. It wasn't the posting of the article I had a problem with - it was the posting of the article coupled with his remarks that babblers need to take heed of it - the thesis of the article being that criticizing Israel is anti-semitism - that I had a problem with. And still do.

But I see, upon editing, that oldgoat beat me to it. Sorry, there have been lots of posts between my last one and now, and of course I read only the first few before hitting the reply button.

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
[QB]

Sure. You ridiculed our moderator - showed contempt for her.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:

unionist, I definitely don't think that antisemitism is solved. I don't think there is no problem with it whether here or in Europe.

---

Ok, Michelle, but I certainly didn't accuse you of that. In fact, my comment was this:

quote:

---

...they now see a huge rising tide of attacks against Jews in Europe (!!!???) - primarily taking the form, of course, of attacks against Israel.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
What decision? I didn't make any decisions in this thread. I participated in it and made observations.

I guess you haven't been following the board THAT long or you'd know that moderators participate as well as moderate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:
The decision to allow posts that minimize the seriousness of anti-semitism to stand, without at some sort of official rebuke.

---

Christtheydon'tpaymeenoughforthisbullshit...

No one's "minimizing the seriousness of anti-semitism" here. We're disagreeing on whether the writer of the article is correct when he says that criticizing Israel is anti-semitic.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:

No one's "minimizing the seriousness of anti-semitism" here.

---

Quelar seems to be.

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jeff house:

but I have too often heard full-scale denunciations of "The Jew" to believe that the critism is necessarily properly directed at Israel, and not Jews generally.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Quelar:

Where have you heard this, read this, or seen this? Do you have any back up, or is it just that someone whispered something about 'the jews' in your ear whilst walking down the street?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Solidarity4Ever:

If someone on Babble were to claim to have been called a N*****, and someone else demanded proof that it in fact happened, I doubt the mod would allow it to stand.

---

If you would read my posts you would see that I'm saying if there is some 'anti-semitism' in europe it's only as bad as the other anti-immigration slants that are there. The 'rising tide' comment seems over blown and completely unhelpful in this situation. No one has yet to provide me with numbers showing that there actually is an increase.

That said, I do agree that there is some anti-semitism everywhere and it should be utterly and finally stamped out, along with all of the other racisms out there. I'm not making light of it. Reread my posts and come back to me with one that minimizes the seriousness of the crime.

quote:

---

We made clear that criticism of actions of Israeli politicians was not off-limits. On the contrary, we noted that some of the strongest criticisms of Israeli policy come from Israeli campuses, journalists and political activists, and from the Jewish intellectual elite of many countries.

---

Anyway, from some poster earlier...

quote:

---

anti-zionism does not equal anti-semetism.

move along, nothing else to see here.

---

And yes, McShane is clearly equating anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism:

quote:

---

The old anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism have morphed into something more dangerous.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
Of course one problem is that when people keep on equating being anti-Zionist with being anti-semitic eventually, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

---

As Brian Klug wrote in his essay "The Myth of the New Anti-Semitism"

quote:

---

When anti-Semitism is everywhere, it is nowhere. And when every anti-Zionist is an anti-Semite, we no longer know how to recognize the real thing--the concept of anti-Semitism loses its significance

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

So, why are people trying to imply that the article is trying to equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, when it explicitly states the exact opposite?

---

Yeah, Stockholm, and here's some more innocuous quotes from this phoney "friend" of the Jews whom I wouldn't trust around my house, my family, or my possessions:

quote:

---

More worrisome was what we described as anti-Jewish discourse, a mood and tone whenever Jews are discussed, whether in the media, at universities, among the liberal media elite or at dinner parties of modish London. To express any support for Israel or any feeling for the right of a Jewish state to exist produces denunciation, even contempt.

---

I denounce and have contempt for this British big shot for his support for Israel and his phoney "feeling for the right of a Jewish state to exist", that meaningless slogan which has become the watchword for Israel and Bush to make war, not peace, in the region. Does that make me an anti-Semite in the lexicon of this gentile "friend" of the Jews? A pox on him.

Here's more, Stockholm:

quote:

---

... the bulk of the West's university intelligentsia remains hostile to the Jewish state.

---

What an angel from heaven you are, Lord MacShane, you non-Jewish "friend" of the Jews. We'd probably all be dead if it weren't for Good Samaritans like you and the rest of your fucking country club. Now hear this: Israel self-defining itself as the "Jewish state" is an appropriation of the good name of my people for their ethnocentric, discriminatory, colonialist purposes. The name of Israel is "Israel", not "the Jewish state".

Here's more, Stockholm:

quote:

---

Tony Blair's successor as British prime minister, Gordon Brown, recently said in London that he stood with Israel "in bad times as well as good times," and one of the remarkable turnarounds of the new Labor leadership that governs Britain is a strong support for Israel and its commitment to combating anti-Semitism.

---

What connection is there between combatting anti-Semitism and strong support for Israel? Or perhaps I'm misquoting him? Strong supporters of Israel fight against anti-Semitism? What utter ahistorical bullshit.

Here's more, Stockholm:

quote:

---

...the soft underbelly of the Western mind-set that does not like Jews or what Israel does to defend its right to exist.

---

He can't open his British aristocratic gob without conflating "liking Jews" with liking Israel. Or maybe it's just all accidental, coincidental. Because in the part you quoted, he actually gives us permission (Praise be You, O British Lord) to criticize Israeli politicians!!!

Thank God for that, or he'd have to condemn Netanyahu as an anti-Semite too. On which point he would be on more solid ground.

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
The British "ruling class" of which you speak were all Tories. MacShane is from the Labour Party and has a long history in the British left.

BTW: I'm curious as to what people would do in the following situation. Let's say that there was some demo in Toronto outside the Israeli consulate protesting Israel's policies and you decide to take part. Let's say that upon arrival you see a group of people waving signs showing stars of david superimposed on swastikas and yelling "death to the Jews". Do you...

a) ignore them and take part in the demo,
b) walk away shaking your head and have nothing to do with the demo or
c) try to see if there is anyone in charge who can tell these people they are persona non grata and if that doesn't work physically destroy their signs and threaten to have them charged with hate crimes?

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

---

D) Why look for mommy? I physically and verbally confront them.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
So, why are people trying to imply that the article is trying to equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, when it explicitly states the exact opposite?

---

Because he states elsewhere in the article that criticism of Israel IS anti-semitism. I quoted it in my first post in this thread.

It's a neat trick, isn't it? State at the beginning of the article that criticing Israel is anti-semitic. Then somewhere in the middle of the article, state that you're not saying that criticizing Israel is anti-semitic. There you go! You get to say it, and then when people call you on it, you can say, "But look here, I said over here that it's not!"

quote:

---

Hatred of Jews has reached new heights in Europe and many points south and east of the old continent. Last year I chaired a blue-ribbon committee of British parliamentarians, including former ministers and a party leader, that examined the problem of anti-Semitism in Britain. None of us are Jewish or active in the unending debates on the Israeli-Palestinian question.

Our report showed a pattern of fear among a small number of British citizens -- there are around 300,000 Jews in Britain, of whom about a third are observant -- that is not acceptable in a modern democracy. Synagogues attacked. Jewish schoolboys jostled on public transportation. Rabbis punched and knifed. British Jews feeling compelled to raise millions to provide private security for their weddings and community events. On campuses, militant anti-Jewish students fueled by Islamist or far-left hate seeking to prevent Jewish students from expressing their opinions.

More worrisome was what we described as anti-Jewish discourse, a mood and tone whenever Jews are discussed, whether in the media, at universities, among the liberal media elite or at dinner parties of modish London. To express any support for Israel or any feeling for the right of a Jewish state to exist produces denunciation, even contempt.

Our report sent a shock wave through the British government. Tony Blair called us in and told his staff to fan out throughout government departments and produce answers to the problems we outlined. To Britain's credit, the Blair administration produced a formal government response setting out tough new guidelines for the police to investigate anti-Semitic attacks and for universities to stop anti-Jewish ideology from taking root on campuses. Britain's Foreign Office has been told to protest to Arab states that allow anti-Jewish broadcasts.

---

In fact I cannot find really any statement to that effect in the essay. To be sure he is a supporter of the state of Israel and rightly points out where Anti-Zionism does morph to anti-Semitism. Yes specifically he targets the vile President of Iran who is a known Holocaust denier. That Michelle is indeed anti-Semitism. He points out that both Hezbollah and Hamas have engaged in classical forms of anti_semitism as has Syria and sadly even Egypt through tv broacasts of the slanderous Protocols of the Elders of Zion, ugly anti-Jewish editorial cartoons etc.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:

Perhaps you can assist us here and point out exactly where he writes that all criticsm of Israel is anti-Semitic.

---

Nice doubletalk - not "ALL" criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. Just most! How clever and cute.

Read my deconstruction above. He connects anti-Israel with anti-Semitic over and over and over. Then he says:

quote:

---

We made clear that criticism of actions of Israeli politicians was not off-limits.

---

Thank you, Lord MacShane! As I said, that means Netanyahu is not anti-Semitic when he attacks Kadima! What generosity of spirit, what breadth of vision!

Of course, anyone who (for example) promotes that Israel should shed its racist laws - as many many Israelis do - would count as a Jew-hater, because they question Israel's "right" to exist as a "Jewish state". That makes me an anti-Semite in this "righteous Gentile's" lexicon.

quote:

---

For Europeans, all this adds up to a bleak picture. Only America might be capable of inducing the government of Israel to moderate its behaviour, and it will not try. Washington gives Jerusalem a blank cheque, and all of us in some degree pay a price for Israel’s abuses of it.

After that remark, I shall be pleasantly surprised to escape an allegation from somebody that I belong in the same stable of antisemites as Walt and Mearsheimer. Yet otherwise intelligent Americans diminish themselves by hurling charges of antisemitism with such recklessness. There will be no peace in the Middle East until the United States faces its responsibilities there in a much more convincing fashion than it does today, partly for reasons given in this depressing book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
So 2002.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
OK unionist so working through your bafflegab ohara is right and Michelle and you are wrong. MacShane, nowhere, either implicitly or explicitly, claims that all critical views on Israel are anti-Semitic.

---

when I said "Just most.", what did you think I meant? Inadvertent sentence fragment? Cryptic leftist jargon? Or do you only read the even-numbered sentences?

Your hero condemns proponents of a single state as anti-Semites. That demeans and vulgarizes the language. It let's the real anti-Semites off the hook. It makes him a poor "friend" of the Jewish people.

quote:

---

Whatever view Europeans take of Israel, most find it difficult to comprehend the sheer ferocity of American sentiment. Ian Buruma wrote an article for The New York Times entitled How to Talk About Israel. He said how difficult it is to have an honest debate, and remarked that “even legitimate criticism of Israel, or of Zionism, is often quickly denounced as antiSemitism by various watchdogs”.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

Your hero condemns proponents of a single state as anti-Semites. That demeans and vulgarizes the language. It let's the real anti-Semites off the hook. It makes him a poor "friend" of the Jewish people.

---

A Proud Tradition Since 2002.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

There is a new racist ideology. But it is not anti-semitism. It is anti-Arab and anti-Islam and its intent is to demonize an entire people, to render them subhuman and worthy of extermination because they happen to be living atop of our oil. And Israel, unfortunately, is at the forefront of that new racism.

quote:

---

Isn't doing harm to others while calling attention to an old scar the vary basis of human political and social behaviour?

---

They have far more ability to
a) pay for an active functioning military
b) live where they want
c) get employment in their own land
d) vote democratically
e) or even leave if they chose to go elsewhere

Should the palestinian government be held accountable for their failures?

Absolutely.

But should the people, who after electing a government democratically were cut off from funding, who are repeatedly moved further and further from their homelands, who are imprisoned by a state they have no say in, who have their crops and houses levelled due to reprisals, have to repeatedly pay for the actions of a few when the occupying government has done little in the way of honest and forthright peaceful negotiations?

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It is always acceptable to speak of Arab anti-semitism but rarely is the other side of the coin mentioned: Anti-Arab racism from Jewish Israelis and supporters.

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My personal experience suggests that anti-semitism is something close to the official ideology of the Arab street.

But I certainly concede that Israel Jewish racism exists against Arabs and Palestinians.

I didn't mention that latter fact in this thread, because this thread is about anti-semitism and how it is a present danger which real progressives are alert to, and combat.

Somehow, I doubt it. Gosh, a double-standard!

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I didn't know you frequented Arab Street. I keep meaning to go there for lunch sometime, but you know how it is.

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Me too, want to head out there for some Falafel?

ETA: Why is it that my posts like the one above keep causing more cricket noise than anything else? Am I completely out to lunch here?

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: quelar ]

I could give you names of people, including Palestinians, who have told me all about what "The Jew" has done, or I could direct you to Arab news media which are far from judicious on the question.

I myself have been interviewed by Al Jazeera, and I know correspondents for two Arab papers also.

It is probably fun to poo-poo this, and resolutely turn a blind eye to antisemitism.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

But I'll bet that when a palestinian refers to 'jews' they don't care one lick about the one's living in the 'diaspora', and are really referrring only to Israeli's.

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Here we have a Toronto lawyer quite comfortable making a statement that generalizes that Arabs, as a group, are anti-Semitic.

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I think I will sue you for this comment.

I never said any such thing, and I never believed it either.

BUT, Anti-semitism is more common than it should be among Arabs. Way more.

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My personal experience suggests that anti-semitism is something close to the official ideology of the Arab street.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
I used the term "Arab Street" to mean "the conventional wisdom" among Arabs.

I could give you names of people, including Palestinians, who have told me all about what "The Jew" has done, or I could direct you to Arab news media which are far from judicious on the question.

I myself have been interviewed by Al Jazeera, and I know correspondents for two Arab papers also.

It is probably fun to poo-poo this, and resolutely turn a blind eye to antisemitism.

That's precisely the danger we are talking about.

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I am considered anti-American when I speak about our neighbours to the south just imagine if they invaded my country, again. I think my language might become less temperate and after over 5 decades and at least three generations living under a foreign military rule even you probably wouldn't have nice things to say about your oppresors.

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I think I will sue you for this comment.

I never said any such thing, and I never believed it either.

BUT, Anti-semitism is more common than it should be among Arabs. Way more.

By the way, I'm not joking about the lawsuit unless I get a retraction. Don't think so? Wait.

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Oh please. That was a fair summary of your remark. Even if mistaken, it was not far off the mark. It certainly wasn't libel.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: josh ]

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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I'm sure you're right, the palestinians probably wander all over talking about the evil things the 'jews' have done to them.
But I'll bet that when a palestinian refers to 'jews' they don't care one lick about the one's living in the 'diaspora', and are really referrring only to Israeli's.

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Unfortunately, many Arabs do not make this distinction. They believe Jews automatically support everything Israel does, and thus tend to lump Jews into a single undifferentiated mass.

A friend of mine was recently a newspaper correspondent in Syria. He speaks and writes Arabic. He got to travel into much of the counrtyside. He told me that most villagers there have extremely simple stereotypical views of "the Jew". This did not surprise me, since I have had other Arab acquaintances who have said something similar.

In Toronto, Muslim callers to my law office often want to know, up front, if I am a Jew. Generally, I won't answer, because it is an irrelevant circumstance, just as it would not matter if I were gay, or Catholic.

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My personal experience suggests that anti-semitism is something close to the official ideology of the Arab street.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
By the way, I'm not joking about the lawsuit unless I get a retraction. Don't think so? Wait.

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Yeah, well, you won. He deleted it. Maybe you should stop "libeling" yourself in your own post now and delete the quote of him saying it?

Unless, of course, you'd like to sue rabble for your own libelous post about yourself?

Lord almighty.

You DID generalize about Arabs in your post. Your generalization was that "anti-semitism is something close to the official ideology of the Arab street." The "Arab Street" defined by you as "'the conventional wisdom' among Arabs." What the hell is that, if not a generalization?

Change your name to a pseudonym if you're so worried about what people say about your posts. No one forced you to have contentious debates on babble for six years using your real name.

It's a neat trick though. If you use your real name and debate with people using aliases, then you get to say whatever unflattering thing you like about them, but if they do it to you, you can threaten them with a lawsuit.

I should make it mandatory for people to use aliases here.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:

Unfortunately, many Arabs do not make this distinction. They believe Jews automatically support everything Israel does, and thus tend to lump Jews into a single undifferentiated mass.

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And again, that may be some or many who believe that, as much as there are Jewish people who distrust everything muslims do. But your generalizations are completely unhelpful to the situation and don't leave anyone room to respond or react in a reasoned manner.

I bid you farewell. It has at times been fun, times frustrating, but at least I cleared up my mess.

"Arabs as a group" are not antisemitic, but many individual Arabs are.

The amount of antisemitism in the Arab world is an empirical question.

Just as it was once accurate to say that the near-official ideology of white southerners was racist, it is, I think, accurate to make a similar claim about the Arab world.

Perhaps there is evidence to the contrary, in which case, tell us about it. Perhaps there are surveys about Arab attitudes towards Jews?

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Perhaps there are surveys about Arab attitudes towards Jews?

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I don't think anti-Arab sentiments are common here at babble, so it's not such a live topic here, but it would be very interesting to know what sorts of racist ideology exists at the street level in Israel.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
I don't think anti-Arab sentiments are common here at babble, so it's not such a live topic here.

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Is this statement meant to say that you think that anti-semitic sentiments are common?