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» babble   » walking the talk   » labour and consumption   » Peak Oil: What to do? part 2

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Author Topic: Peak Oil: What to do? part 2
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 25 April 2004 02:46 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For those of you who want to continue this discussion, please do so...
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 26 April 2004 02:20 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It will be interesting to see how democracy will be affected by the oil crisis. A couple of weeks ago I was listing to the Enright files on ideas. He was interviewing a fairly liberal minded economist about globalization. She said that a growing number of young people are becoming a political. That they refuse to vote because they are disenchanted with the current system. The lady, (sorry I can't remember her last name) told Michael that the industrialized democracies are sliding rather quickly towards fascism.

I believe her belief was confirmed in a conversation I had over a year ago on the spacecast message boards.
I was having a jovial chat with a guy who said he was from Calgary. He jokingly said that all politicians were the same and that they were all going to hell. I said that he must have voted for Stockwell day during the last election.
He flamed me with the following response:

quote:
Oh man those are war words. There is no way I would ever vote for him but I am not thrilled with Jean either. All of them are pursuing their own agendas for their own aggrandizement. To think a left winger is doing it for any less of a personal reason than a right winger is naive. I've dealt with all stripes of politicians over the years and this comes from my personal experience.

What needs to happen is that the whole works need to be lined up against a wall and shot. Then we need to start over and keep doing that until it gets done right.


Dnuttal said that extremist survivalist organizations weren't likely to to take hold in Canada during the crisis. After reading this, I'm not sure whether he judged the Canadian character correctly.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ranger03
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posted 26 April 2004 03:56 PM      Profile for Ranger03        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The lady, (sorry I can't remember her last name) told Michael that the industrialized democracies are sliding rather quickly towards fascism.

sliding? In Alberta Ralph Klein has begun making Canada's first Nationalsocialist Conservative state by illegaly making changes to the health care act necessitated by his meddling in the very same system to in fact ensure it's collapse.


From: bed | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 26 April 2004 05:25 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ranger03:

sliding? In Alberta Ralph Klein has begun making Canada's first Nationalsocialist Conservative state by illegaly making changes to the health care act necessitated by his meddling in the very same system to in fact ensure it's collapse.


I think that people misuse the word the words faschism and Nazi to much Ralph's antics may very well be the beginning of something nasty and dictatorial, but we aren't there quite yet.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ranger03
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posted 26 April 2004 09:09 PM      Profile for Ranger03        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Nazism is usually considered as a kind of fascism, but it should be understood that Nazism sought the state's purpose in serving an ideal to valuing what its content should be: its people, race, and the social engineering of these aspects of culture to the ends of the greatest possible prosperity for them (the party not the people) at the expense of all else.

Ralph has:
    worked completely for the betterment of the party

    Made Alberta an almost "right to work" province. Something only seen so far in Southern states

    Has dictated to Nurses what their contract will consist of plus removing certain pensions and refusing them the right to strike

    Decided that "Easten Bastards" should freeze in the dark

    Decided the homeless should just get a job

I think, with all due respect the lady to be correct. He has slid a long way down that right wing at the end of which lives the beast


From: bed | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 27 April 2004 06:44 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To the issue of peak oil, I think that people don't want to believe it. Again, today, I had someone tell me that it's nonsense; the oil companies just want more money. It appears that the oil companies have done such a good job of selling an un-limited oil supply, that people won't accept that it's limited.

Anybody else tried talking about this with friends & neighbours? One doesn't have to scare monger; just suggest that oil production may be peaking soon and see what kind of reactions you get.


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 27 April 2004 10:49 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anybody else tried talking about this with friends & neighbours? One doesn't have to scare monger; just suggest that oil production may be peaking soon and see what kind of reactions you get.


I spoke to my mom and sister about it. Neither of them seem to be worried. Mom did answer my Numorus questions about how prepared we are for the crunch. Our vehicle is old, we have a garden and our spending habits aren't that lavish, so we'll probably survive the initial price increases.
The problem with sites like after the oil crash.com is that they get you so upset you can't think straight. What good is a warning when you can't think of any solutions to the problem?

quote:
Oh, oh...looks like only China and the US are going to have oil.

We are going to attack China!?

quote:
I think it is necessary now for the goverment to do an assessment of what is left. It is impossible to believe reserve figures given by private enterprise for the simple reason that there is no incentive for them to provide an accurate accounting.



yeah, but how are you going to convince people to march for a cause like that. It doesn't really have any catchy slogans attached to it like " give peace a chance" or "LBJ! LBJ! How many kids did you kill today!"

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
dnuttall
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posted 28 April 2004 12:32 PM      Profile for dnuttall     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The governments have no interest in giving out real numbers, any more than industry. Governments will be in trouble when it becomes clear that they are helping to create the problems.

There is a lot one can do. Pay off debts, use energy efficiency to decrease your demand on the system, and use energy conservation if that's not enough. There's a fellow in eastern Ontario that has a 3000 sq.ft house, high efficiency appliances (everything - DVD, home theatre, hot tub, the whole bit), and practices no conservation. He generates his own electricity, and would use the equivelent of $18 of electricity per month. Consider what you pay per month. The difference is what energy inefficiency is costing you.

Educate yourself, and make appropriate changes for yourself, and you'll weather things better than everyone else.

My projections (for what it's worth) show the amount of energy consumed in Canada will be 20% lower in 20 years from now. The cost of energy will be about 3 times higher. Energy intensive industries will be hurting. Energy producing industries will be rich. It's the change from one to another that hurts.


From: Kanata | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
RickW
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posted 02 May 2004 12:03 AM      Profile for RickW     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.discover.com/issues/nov-01/features/featlovin/

"The future is simple, says Amory Lovins. The future is nonpolluting, inexhaustible, nontoxic, and so basic that even a liberal arts major can understand its chemical structure.

The future is hydrogen: H, one proton, one electron. The first, lightest, and most common element in the universe.

The stuff that turns oil into margarine. The stuff that made the Hindenburg float. The stuff that combines with oxygen to make water and with carbon to make methane. The stuff that sends the space shuttle skyward and could someday power your car, office building, house, cell phone, even your hearing aid.

The stuff that could clean up the planet. "


From: Victoria, BC | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
RickW
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posted 02 May 2004 12:14 AM      Profile for RickW     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/wp98001.html
"From the dawn of mankind to the turn of the nineteenth century world population grew to a total of one billion people. During the 1800s, human numbers increased at increasingly higher rates, reaching a total of about 1.7 billion people by 1900. World population has grown even more rapidly during the present century, with the greatest gains occurring in the post-World War II period, and stands at over three times its size in 1900 -- some 5.9 billion people -- today."

The simple answer to Peak Oil is that virtually "free" energy from 1900 to the present day, has allowed the world's population to just about quadruple. So it would make "sense" to conjecture that, when our "free" energy is no longer free, we will experience a rapid decrease in population. And as we fight over the scraps of energy that are left, democrcies will go the way of the dodo.

PS We use oil at about a 15% efficiency, brought about because it is (vitually) free - a "throw away" commodity. We have been doing this for the last 100 years, and it is ingrained in the North American collective psyche. Any substantive moves towards efficient use of oil is met with stubborn, irrational, resistance. Ther IS lots of oil......but perhaps just not for going to the corner store for smokes.


From: Victoria, BC | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 02 May 2004 01:16 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rick, hydrogen cannot be mined. There is very little free floating hydrogen on earth. There's lots in water, but it costs to get it out.

As to population, future historians will probably look back at the twentieth century as the time when the world's population tripled.


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 May 2004 09:42 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have been thinking,
Many anti-war activists said the during the lead up to Gulf War two that the invasion was completely unnecessary, but what if it was necessary? The war was about oil, and oil is the basis of our economy. Sure, we use it to fuel SUVs, but it also goes into the raw materials used to build wind mills and solar panels. The plastics are also used in medical equipment. Even plants that manufacture corn plastic need some petroleum as an energy source.
The occupation of Iraq is immoral, but I don't want to go without x-ray machines or penicillin. Of course, I'll probably end going without them anyway.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
MacD
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posted 06 May 2004 10:09 PM      Profile for MacD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm fairly certain that plastics do not HAVE to be manufactured from non-renewable fossil fuels. Presumably, any compound that occurs in nature can, in principle, be synthesized. It may require new technologies, and it may be much more expensive than using cheap fossil fuels, but there is hope...the end of fossil fuels does not have to be the end of products that are CURRENTLY manufactured from fossil fuels.
From: Redmonton, Alberta | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
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posted 06 May 2004 10:10 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess this is the question we have to answer, CMOT: is it worth the blow to our collective conscience, our values, and our integrity to destroy another nation in order to have more of a natural resource?

An important question, because if the PeakOil site is correct, we may be somewhere on the list of nations whose sovereignty is at stake in the mad scramble for oil.


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
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posted 07 May 2004 12:29 AM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The real answer is that we are wasting a limited resource. The question that people should have been asking is: Should we go to war so that we can continue to waste that resource?

We can all live quite well with a lot less fuel. We just might have to walk a bit more.


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr-trudo
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posted 07 May 2004 02:36 PM      Profile for mr-trudo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is not the natural resource the US wants in Iraq but ownership and wealth from the sale of that resource.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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