Author
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Topic: Consensus-seeking, loyalty, and honesty
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 01 October 2002 06:36 PM
Do you pull your punches when you suddenly find that you're disagreeing with a friend or an ally?I am of a whole bunch of different minds when I think about that question, and many things that happen on babble, on different parts of babble, make me think about it often. For instance, on the Male-dominated? thread on this forum, and some months ago, Trespasser said at one point: quote: On a different note. I find women posters on Babble too consensus-seeking in some respects (if we sidestep a couple -- yes, there were no more than one or two -- trolls of female gender). At first I wondered why, but after disproportionately antagonizing people with clear disagreement three or four times (in all fairness, the interlocutors were both men and women, although more often men), I got the picture.
And yet not so far down on the same thread, after I'd made a post that was meant to mend a bridge or two between Tres and me (the friction had arisen suddenly and somewhere else), Tres thanked me for being sisterly, which made us both very happy and really did resolve the tension (eh, Tres?). However, I still find Tres's first quote above troubling. I know she's right. I know there's pressure sometimes not to be too confrontational, on this forum and elsewhere on babble, and it drives me bats to think that strong and bright women are going to feel that chill -- the chill of propriety, a poor substitute for truth or courage -- where a lot of our male peers won't. It especially drives me bats to think that strong and bright women might feel chilled on this forum, although I'm sure that's happened; I'm sure I've seen it. I am no pussycat in some kinds of political debate; and yet I hate to fight; I really hate it. Furthermore, I know that personal loyalty does compel me to pull my punches, especially on this forum but elsewhere too. Well, so, like: there's the mess. Thoughts? Anyone else part wimp and part fighter?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490
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posted 01 October 2002 10:04 PM
I do sometimes find myself pulling my punches, but then again I think any number of people here will tell you that they've been bruised by me at one time or another, because I tend to really get going when something tweaks me, and I gotta remember to hold on a half sec, relax, and see if I can't restate something.So on balance I would say I sometimes do and sometimes don't. (addendum: Oh, crud. I posted on feminism. That'll teach me to not look where I'm posting. Mea culpa.) [ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: DrConway ]
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001
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nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402
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posted 02 October 2002 03:03 AM
If you don't pull punches at kin, friends and allies, you're going be alone in a world of enemies pretty soon. Want to survive? Let your brain choose the fights.Okay, it's more complicated than that. Within a family, one chooses fights very carefully, assessing probable damage against probable gain. You don't stage a grand stand against some trivial thing, knowing that half your relatives won't speak to you for a decade; you save it for something that really counts. Among friends, you do a similar assessment. Is the issue worth losing a friend over? Is it a matter of basic principle, wherein, if your friend is committed to the other side, you can't feel the same respect for hem, ever again? It happens. Sometimes we lose friends. Other times, we compromise: we forgive, overlook, avoid, pretend the conversation never took place. On a discussion board, you're dealing with virtual strangers. What have you got to lose? If you can't be as honest and aggressive and bloody-minded as you want, what's the point of participating? [ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001
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oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130
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posted 02 October 2002 09:52 PM
quote: On a discussion board, you're dealing with virtual strangers. What have you got to lose? If you can't be as honest and aggressive and bloody-minded as you want, what's the point of participating?
Personally, I can't say as I see it that way. On this discussion board at least, I'm dealing with some virtual friends, and some real live friends. There are also all sorts of invisible types who I consider to be real people sitting in front of computer screens all over the the place. Honesty is especially important in cyber relationships because we have no real way of determining if people are really as they try to present. But honesty doesnt have to mean bloody mindedness. And I believe in assertive rather than aggressive. So I think you should pick your spots, and be thoughtful where you're really going to let someone have it. I think that debate at it's best guides itself toward consensus, and respects when people do not wish to be dissuaded from thier views. So there
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Catalyst
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 237
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posted 02 October 2002 10:21 PM
Do I ever pull my punches with friends here? You bet I do. But not out of being a wimp. If I find myself completely at odds with friends here, I state it politely on babble and if necessary straighten out conflicts in pm's or emails. So why pull my punches at all? Let me give an example from work. While in the course of doing my job a design engineer stands between me and the car I am building. Not only is he (or she) endangering his (or her) safety, but he (or she) is potentially stopping me from completing my job before the next car gets to my station. In that case I usually utter something like, "Get the fuck outta my way." It is coarse, but it gets their attention and I have nothing to lose as I do not have to see him (or her) on a daily basis. If it were my foreman, I would ask him (or her) to move more politely. And on the next break explain my vision is limitted and he (it IS a male in my case) is risking injury. I must deal with him on a daily basis and I value a good working relationship. Here on babble, I argue with people who I think are not trolls (whom I ignore whenever I can) but civilly. If I feel like my arguments will be perceived as rude, I refrain. And if I feel a thread is about to be hijacked by a clash of personalities instead of iseas, I take it to email if I know them well or pm's if I don't. I do not feel this is in the slightest "wimpy." Unless you folks think it is (kidding!)
From: gone | Registered: Apr 2001
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