babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » walking the talk   » feminism   » Muslim pop star gets death threats over video

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Muslim pop star gets death threats over video
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 27 February 2006 10:43 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In her video, the faces of "women who have been killed in the name of 'honour' " are projected on to Deeyah's naked back. She also dances in the streets wearing a halter top.

"My core message in this video is the right of a woman to choose her own path and express herself without the fear of violence or cultural excommunication," she says on Ms. Manji's Web site.

"After years of being called a 'whore,' 'devil' and 'bringer of shame' by people who use Islam as their shield, I have decided to let this video speak for me ... I am tired of the people who clamour at the slightest hint of skin on a Muslim woman but who will not speak up when a woman is beaten and even murdered in the name of Islam."

Hoda Fahmy, who works with a group that provides education to Muslim women in Canada, says Deeyah's message is lost along with the singer's clothing.

"A lot of us are working for women's rights, particularly in the Muslim world. I think we have more self-respect than to dance around naked to make our point," she said. "It's unfortunate that she has to use those means, because it's true -- women are not able to speak up in a lot of these countries."

© National Post 2006story

Deeyah is a Norwegian-born artist. Is her approach to this issue a provocation to Muslims or does she have the right to freedom of expression?

Irshad Manji (whom I have a great admiration and respect for is in the video,ripping a strip of tape from Deeyah's mouth).


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 27 February 2006 10:49 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Is her approach to this issue a provocation to Muslims or does she have the right to freedom of expression?

Those choices are not mutually exclusive of one another.

Having said that, I am somewhat skeptical that this performer actually considers herself a Muslim in good standing.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 27 February 2006 11:01 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Having said that, I am somewhat skeptical that this performer actually considers herself a Muslim in good standing.

On the basis of what, exactly?

Video available here (Quicktime only):
http://www.deeyah.com/media.aspx
Note: It's not the first time she's been threatened. From the canned bio:

quote:
Deeyah signed with BMG at the age of 16 and released her second album the following year, a more pop-oriented offering of songs recorded in multiple languages (Deeyah speaks five). The album went Top 10 and yielded two Top 10 singles and music videos. The award-winning music video for the second single from that album, by renowned film director Marius Holst, made Deeyah the target of conservative Muslims who were outraged that her uncovered back could be seen in the video. This led to harassment, threats against Deeyah and her family, physical assaults, an on-stage attack during a concert and an attempted abduction at her school.

From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
marzo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12096

posted 27 February 2006 11:15 AM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I admire the courage of Deeyah, Irshad Manji and others who make strong statements while under threat from bullies, fascists and misogynists.
I have never made any serious effort to learn about Islam and I probably never will. I have learned enough about Islam from the Iranian revolution, the Salman Rushdie fatwa, public beheadings of adulteresses in Saudi Arabia, the suicide-bomber cults,and the reaction to the cartoon prophets that could move the world closer to global nuclear war.

From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 27 February 2006 11:18 AM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:
Having said that, I am somewhat skeptical that this performer actually considers herself a Muslim in good standing.


On the basis of what, exactly?


I dunno. Her whole approach(as outlined in the article) doesn't seem quite what I would expect from someone who was seriously concerned about Islam or the reformation thereof. It's one thing to say "I disagree with the burqa and here's why", it's another to toss off the burqa and reveal a bikini while dancing on stage. The latter action is just likely to shock and alienate the very people who need to hear your message, thus ensuring that they never give you a hearing.

It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?

All that said, I have no attachment to Islam whatsoever, and will defend to the death her right to flash a bikini while wearing a burqa any time she wants.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 27 February 2006 11:33 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It could be a quest for publicity but for the involvement of Ms. Manji.

Perhaps younger,progressive feminists are prepared to confront fundamentalist attitudes more directly than the previous generation of feminists.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 11:41 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?

It reminds me of when Sinead O'Connor tore up the photograph of the Pope on national television.

Except for the death threats, of course. Death threats over a music video is clear and compelling evidence of irrationality, IMHO.

ed'd to add: curious sidebar. I thought I'd check and see if O'Connor might have received death threats over the Pope picture fiasco, but it appears she DID once receive death threats from fundamentalist Jews over her proposed appearance at a concert in Jerusalem.

Maybe they put death threats in the water over there or something. Don't like your restaurant service? Make a death threat. Paperboy keeps throwing the paper in the hedge? Death threat. Someone making too many death threats at you? Death threat them. Good grief.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 11:42 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excuse moi? It was precisely when Manji's name popped up that I started the eye-rolling. If ever there was a publicity hound ...

But of course. They both have the right to be media stars. It ain't art and it ain't intelligent, but I'm sure it's bringing in the bucks. So who cares?

If either woman is receiving death threats, that is awful and they deserve protection.

There is a topic here?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 11:53 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I really don't understand how association with Manji gives credibility. Manji herself seems to be a bit of grandstander herself. There are always those who gain noteriety by being more Catholic than the pope.

Certainly death threats are reprehnsible, but are they really so unusual for public figures? It is not as if everytime Madonna got a death threat someone tried to make it a major cornerstone in her marketting strategy.

Once again the accent here seems to be playing to base fears about Muslims for the 'western' audience, something that will no doubt help establish Deeyah marketability in the lucrative western markets.

What is the message here? Throw off your veil so that you can be a sex object?

Highly questionable as to taste and motive.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bonner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12160

posted 27 February 2006 11:55 AM      Profile for Bonner        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?

It's not like that at all. She's not having an audience with an Ayatollah, or powerpointing a conference of mullahs.

quote:
"After years of being called a 'whore,' 'devil' and 'bringer of shame' by people who use Islam as their shield, I have decided to let this video speak for me ... I am tired of the people who clamour at the slightest hint of skin on a Muslim woman but who will not speak up when a woman is beaten and even murdered in the name of Islam."

So you'll defend her right to flash a bikini while wearing a burqa, lol. That she would be beaten or murdered for doing so is what she is struggling against. More power to reformers like her.

The power of the mullahs to suppress womens rights must be fought at every turn. Why not support that, voice of the damned, rather than cast doubt on her methods of fighting the misogynist establishment within Islam.

quote:
There is a topic here?

Of course there is a topic here, skdadl, the suppression and abuse of women by radical reactionaries within Islam. Why be so dismissive?

Ripping duct tape from her mouth, nice symbolism.


From: Haven Hotel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 12:00 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The power of the mullahs to suppress womens rights must be fought at every turn. Why not support that, voice of the damned, rather than cast doubt on her methods of fighting the misogynist establishment within Islam.

Some of us are committed to the considerably less glamorous and less remunerative task of tracking down women's organizations in any country where women are oppressed, and then following the lead of those women - finding out what they need and want, rather than giving them directions presumptuously and egotistically.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For instance Magoo, you actually think that no one sends death threats to Sinead O'connor?SINEAD UNDER DEATH THREAT
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7136

posted 27 February 2006 12:05 PM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Too polarizing and attention-seeking, IMHO.

There are Muslim and ex-Muslim women artists who are performing and creating literary and visual works that are less 'Girls Go Wild' in style and more radical in content. Why don't they get the attention they deserve?


From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 12:05 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
but it appears she DID once receive death threats from fundamentalist Jews over her proposed appearance at a concert in Jerusalem.

You're a day late and a dollar short on that. See above.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Howard Stern

quote:
ARRESTED Samuel Callea, 33, of Buffalo, was charged with criminal possession of a shotgun and criminal trespassing April 16. Callea allegedly chased Howard Stern's limo into a parking garage outside Stern's broadcast studio in Manhattan and screamed death threats. Guards grabbed Callea and called police, who found the shotgun and ammo in Callea's car, parked nearby. Stern's show went on as scheduled.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 27 February 2006 12:15 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:

votd wrote:

It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?

Bonner replied:

It's not like that at all. She's not having an audience with an Ayatollah, or powerpointing a conference of mullahs.


Okay, I'll fine-tune the comparison. It's as if Father Charles Curran, instead of writing yet another treatise on why the church is wrong about birth control, takes to dressing up as a giant condom and doing a tour of sing-a-long pubs to perform Monty Python's Every Sperm Is Sacred song. His supporters claim that this is a serious attempt by a devout Catholic to get the Pope to listen to his viewpoint.

http://tinyurl.com/mxfj8


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Death threats "over there" Magoo?

Didn't Morrisey cancel his 2004 Ft Worth Texas date in 2004 because of death threats he recieved?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 12:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"over there" - ?!?

Over where? You think that people here don't get death threats?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 12:21 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?

Or maybe like a guy who wants to draw attention to the situation in Haiti who goes around flinging red paint at people. How is that neither polarizing nor attention-seeking?

Here we're talking about a woman choosing to reveal parts of her own body that would be visible in abundance at pretty much any beach. If that's so polarizing, maybe she should polarize the hell out of things and we'll deal with it afterward, and meanwhile support her inalienable right to do whatever the hell she wants with her own body.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 12:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nobody is not supporting her right. We are supporting it and sneering at her at the same time.

Would you mind supporting our right to do that too?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 27 February 2006 12:23 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Here we're talking about a woman choosing to reveal parts of her own body that would be visible in abundance at pretty much any beach. If that's so polarizing, maybe she should polarize the hell out of things and we'll deal with it afterward, and meanwhile support her inalienable right to do whatever the hell she wants with her own body.

I'm not opposing her right to do that, Magoo.

I support Larry Flynt's right to make jokes about Jerry Falwell that resemble the type of jokes which could he heard in any juinor high gym locker in North America. That doesn't mean I agree that this is the most effective way to get Falwell's supporters to embrace secular tolerance.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think what is being opposed is not her rights, but the legitimacy of her manner, her motives and her apparent attempt to manipulate negative stereotypes about Muslims in order to forward her musical career, while dressing it up as a politcal statement.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7136

posted 27 February 2006 12:32 PM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Nobody is not supporting her right. We are supporting it and sneering at her at the same time.

Would you mind supporting our right to do that too?


Mwaha. Exactly. C'est le problématique.


From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is always heartwarming to see how vocal western men are about defending the right of women to strip.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 12:34 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You think that people here don't get death threats?

Not, as a matter of course, over wearing a bikini.

quote:
Would you mind supporting our right to do that too?

If it makes you feel better, sneer away. I just think it's hilarious that wearing a bikini is somehow grandstanding and attention seeking, whereas flinging red paint is doing God's work, as is dressing up like a Raging Granny, or launching teddy bears with a catapult.

Is it the Manji connection that's tainting her? The fear that some political enemy might capitalize on this? It seems to me that she's really not doing anything that warrants sneering.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 27 February 2006 12:35 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It is always heartwarming to see how vocal western men are about defending the right of women to strip.

Well, ya know. First they came for the lap-dancers...


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:36 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
lol
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 27 February 2006 12:38 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Is it the Manji connection that's tainting her? The fear that some political enemy might capitalize on this? It seems to me that she's really not doing anything that warrants sneering.


Speaking personally, I have no thoughts on Ms. Manji either way. I'm aware of what other babblers have said about her, pro and con, but haven't read enough of her myself to formulate my own opinions.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And look she's Norwegian! Big threat there!
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7136

posted 27 February 2006 12:45 PM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I just think it's hilarious that wearing a bikini is somehow grandstanding and attention seeking, whereas flinging red paint is doing God's work, as is dressing up like a Raging Granny, or launching teddy bears with a catapult.

You have the right to sneer at raging grannies too, if that makes you feel better.

It's been noted that wearing a bikini is hardly a radical form of protest, at least in the West, so why should this be portrayed/supported as such?


From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
On Ms. Manji's official Web site, she said she participated in the video because Deeyah represents "integrity and independence of thought." She added that since the release of the video, Deeyah has received a string of death threats and media outlets have "succumbed to the intimidation of angry Muslims, and are low-balling a great tune."


I have never heard a band not complain that the media and their record label were not "low-balling" their music when it failed to go top ten. It is really hard, but sometimes necessary, to tell people that there is no media conspiracy and the reality is that people don't like your music.

This is such a bunch of P.T. Barnum crock-o-shit promotion.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 12:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by brebis noire:

You have the right to sneer at raging grannies too, if that makes you feel better.

It's been noted that wearing a bikini is hardly a radical form of protest, at least in the West, so why should this be portrayed/supported as such?


What we need is Maralyn Manson to convert to a very strict school of Islam. Now that would be promotional stunt, I could respect.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
sidra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11490

posted 27 February 2006 01:01 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I admire the courage of Deeyah, Irshad Manji and others who make strong statements while under threat from bullies, fascists and misogynists.
I have never made any serious effort to learn about Islam and I probably never will. I have learned enough about Islam from the Iranian revolution, the Salman Rushdie fatwa, public beheadings of adulteresses in Saudi Arabia, the suicide-bomber cults,and the reaction to the cartoon prophets that could move the world closer to global nuclear war.


I guess we did hear enough about Inquisitions, about 'witches' burnt alive, earths that are flat, savage aboriginals in Africa and the Americas being exterminated and decimated.. but only morons would judge Christianity or Jesus on such "learning".

If you refuse to get some education, nobody will force it on you. Some people -and beasts- seem comfortable sitting on rot.


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 01:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Natacha Atlas has been playing with genres for years, musical, racial, religous and politcal. And she can fucking sing.

Egyptian singer plays the occidental tourist

quote:
"When I was living in Egypt, I got a lot of offers to come and play in tents during Ramadan," Atlas nods. "The next step is for you to join the circuit and start doing weddings, hotels and become someone's official musician. You make a fuck of a lot of money and live this ridiculous, pampered life, with servants and hired cars, but it's a bit dry.

"On the other side, I get that Roger Taylor guy from Duran Duran asking me to come and sing. I'm a massive fan, but he was a cheap bastard, so I said no."


Now that sounds to me like a woman taking a stand, not just pretending she is.

She did a brilliant version of "I Put A Spell On You," using traditional Arabic melody produced as European pop with influences of "Druam and Bass" and other contemporary styles.

This is not a stunt: Halte à la violence contre les femmes -- Amnesty International


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rici
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2710

posted 27 February 2006 02:27 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An article about Norwegian "world music" from 1997. Deeyah appears in the last few paragraphs (under her real name). Distance No Object

quote:
At school concerts, audiences laughed till they cried when funny little Deepika sang - she was so exotic. Behind the charm and the smile were all the things that were not so visible: her musical talent and extremely hard work. Through her father and later teachers such as the recently deceased raga master Ustad Fateh Ali Khan now deceased and sarangi master Ustad Sultan Khan, she acquired enough knowledge to dare. You can't allow yourself to experiment before you have a good grounding in musical theory. In order to break barriers, you have to know what you are breaking. These principles are the basic foundation of her career; she wanted to be noticed for something where the colour of her skin was irrelevant. She had to choose between music and sport, activities where performance alone counts. Paradoxically, according to the experts, race and gender mean something today because everything else about her is undisputed.

I assume this is the same Deepika Thatlaal who appears on Jan Garbarek's 1992 album Ragas and Sagas. I admit that I don't quite get hip-hop, but that Garbarek disc is wonderful, in my humble opinion.

Why is it so hard to just take people at face value?


From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 02:44 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That doesn't mean I agree that this is the most effective way to get Falwell's supporters to embrace secular tolerance.

Maybe it's time to wonder if that's ever going to happen. Like, ever.

I don't think it will, anymore than a careful, cautious, inoffensive information campaign about meat is liable to get vegans eating it.

So if Fundamentalists aren't ever going to stop being Fundamentalists, I applaud anyone who reminds them that they aren't "right", they don't rule the world, and they certainly don't rule us. Anyone antagonizing a fundie starts off as OK in my book.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 02:53 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rici:

Why is it so hard to just take people at face value?

Good question. "Face value." Whom gave her permission to use the faces of murdered women to make her political point? Did she bother asking? I mean really, were there no other means of getting her point across. Natacha Atlas seems to be able to make her point without resorting to shock theatre?

What could be more of a "personal" statement than the photo of Natacha Atlas, in an Belly Dancer outfit and holding the end of a Hooka pipe, with obvious symbolic overtones. She isn't attacking Islam, but attacking the fundamentalist values by being what they abhor, proudly, withou going out of her way to insult or derride anyone.

Class vs. trash.

Let me know when Deeyah is doing her next Amnesty International promotion, uses the word "fuck" in an interview, or says someone like Roger Taylor is "cheap" in an interview.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 03:01 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Good question. "Face value." Whom gave her permission to use the faces of murdered women to make her political point. Did she bother asking? I mean really, were there no other means of getting her point across.

You're seriously asking this?

Remember little Ali, the kid who got both of his arms blown off? And whose picture graced babble about a dozen times?

Did any babbler ever ask HIM if it was OK?? Or, as you ask, was there no other way of getting their point across?

quote:
Let me know when Deeyah is doing her next Amnesty International promotion.

What on earth does that have to do with it??

Are the only credible activists on the planet the 12 or so singers on this album? Is everyone else a sham because Amnesty didn't ask them?

Good grief. She's challenging fundamentalism and this is what she gets for it? I'm curious what's really going on here. When did challenging fundies require that Amnesty ask you to be on their album? When did babblers supporting the challenging of fundies depend on them "not being confrontational" about it?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
rici
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2710

posted 27 February 2006 03:05 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Whom gave her permission to use the faces of murdered women to make her political point.

Gosh, I don't know. Who should she have asked, do you think?

Using photos of dead and disappeared victims of South American torture regimes was (and continues to be) a fairly common, though as you say shocking, approach to highlighting the issue. I've seen such demonstrations, including concerts, all over South America, as well as in Spain and Canada. I've even held such posters myself.

I don't believe anyone ever had trouble figuring out that we were protesting particular torturers and the dictators who gave them orders, and not seeking to derogate all Latinos.


From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 03:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You seem to have an inordinate amount of my respect for my ability to censor and control the world Magoo.

I am not allowed to say, I prefer artist X's expression over artist Y. Or prefer the manner in which she does her politcs, or say that it seems to me that artist Y is grandstanding for attention and media buzz?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 03:08 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rici:

Gosh, I don't know. Who should she have asked, do you think?


No one. All I know is that I would not have dead people, whom I have no relationship with displayed on my body as part of my promotional music video.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 03:20 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I am not allowed to say, I prefer artist X's expression over artist Y. Or prefer the manner in which she does her politcs, or say that it seems to me that artist Y is grandstanding for attention and media buzz?

Of course you are. Don't ever let anyone silence your awesome self.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 03:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The whole thing seems a little trite frankly.

I mean, Rici, why doesn't she strip down to a business suit? Why the conversion from repressed Muslim to Playboy "pin up." Is that really a key message of female empowerment? How trite and predictable.

Liberation from fundamentalism Islam, expressed as acceptance of western Female sexual objectification.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 03:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Of course you are. Don't ever let anyone silence your awesome self.


Awesomness is a relative qualification to be sure.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 03:43 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
How trite and predictable.

Ya, not at all clever like fake blood.

Maybe she just wants to piss off a few fundamentalists. If so, why not? Are you worried that they'll pop a vein in their heads or something?

Anything that gets under their skin is a good thing, so long as it's as utter harmless as wearing a bathing suit. Don't you think?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 03:48 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not a way to make money in North America.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 03:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Anything that gets under their skin is a good thing, so long as it's as utter harmless as wearing a bathing suit. Don't you think?


Just as long as you get to see some right Magoo? Skin that is. Everything is AOK.

What a dunce. You are making me look awesomer by the minute.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 03:55 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Just as long as you get to see some right Magoo? Skin that is. Everything is AOK.

What a dunce.


And what an offensive remark. Where have I given any indication that I wish to see this artist's "skin".

I find this accusation odious.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 04:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You are right. It is odious, and offensive. I thought therefore you would appreciate it.

I ask you, why is it that almost all expressions of female empowerement against Islamic conservatism, must conclude as an acceptance of wetern female sexual objectification before you wake up?

Does Natacha Atlas have to show her camel toe, and say "I am doing this to opposed the Islamic fundamentalist" in order to get the Nazional Post to run an article on her and get you to defend her right to "self-expression?"


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 04:08 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Does Natacha Atlas have to show her camel toe, and say "I am doing this to opposed the Islamic fundamentalist" in order to get the Nazional Post to run an article on her and get you to defend her right to "self-expression?"

Ya. She has to show her camel toe. That's all I care about.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
rici
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2710

posted 27 February 2006 04:12 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
The whole thing seems a little trite frankly.

A great deal of what passes for modern entertainment strikes me as trite, but I worry that I'm falling into old-fogeyism. All the same, I suppose she has as much right to make money from it as does, say, Shakira.

By the way, you really should listen to the Jan Garbarek album.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: rici ]


From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 04:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Ya. She has to show her camel toe. That's all I care about.


So here, why are you coming after me for saying this is "trite" and "this video might have been saying a whole lot more about female empowerment, not just about Islamic conservatism, but also western 'objectification,' if she stripped from Burqua to business suit."

What is the big problem with my saying that and why are you arguing with me? What is your issue?

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 04:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What is a camel toe?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erstwhile
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4845

posted 27 February 2006 04:24 PM      Profile for Erstwhile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
O skdadl, my poor country mouse.

Wikipedia knows all.


From: Deepest Darkest Saskabush | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 04:24 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A woman's external genitalia, as seen through too-tight clothing.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 27 February 2006 04:24 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
What is a camel toe?

Um, er, well, uh, you could just google the phrase and save me a lot of embarassment, but if you must know... when people wear pants that are so tight in the crotch that they... no sorry, just can't do it. Google the phrase, and do it quick, before someone posts a picture.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 27 February 2006 04:26 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I also note that someone can post a request for legitimate help and go unanswered for days, but let someone ask about camel-toes and the responses come pouring in.
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 04:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good heavens. What will they think of next?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 04:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rici:

A great deal of what passes for modern entertainment strikes me as trite, but I worry that I'm falling into old-fogeyism. All the same, I suppose she has as much right to make money from it as does, say, Shakira.

By the way, you really should listen to the Jan Garbarek album.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: rici ]


Thanks, I'll look into that.

I have no arguement with your assertion that much of modern culture is trite, and in that framework things such as Madonna's overt "sexualization" of herself has a revolutionary aspect to it, when framed in the context of the pop-culture standard, however that does not mean that a critique of the framework should not be made.

You should check out the Palestinian movie "Devine Intervention" which features Natacha Atlas's version of "I Put a Spell on You," as much as saying anything about the occupation the film dispels a lot of myths about the ultra-conservative nature of Arab society.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rici
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2710

posted 27 February 2006 04:27 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't complain about you calling it trite. In fact, I'm not sure that I complained about anything you said, but since you ask, I have to say that I find:

quote:
This is such a bunch of P.T. Barnum crock-o-shit promotion

needlessly offensive, and, in my opinion, simply presented for shock value. Of course, you have a right to say it, and I have a right to say that it's rude. So no argument there.

I do disagree with your contention that Deeyah doesn't know how to sing. She does. She has a gorgeous voice. I haven't listened to her hip-hop stuff, as I'm not a fan of hip-hop, but when I heard her earlier CD some years ago in Norway, I was pretty impressed. That's just a question of taste, so it's not particularly important.

My comment about taking people at face value was derived from your implication that she is (a) lying, and (b) spreading anti-Muslim propaganda. I don't see any reason to disbelieve her, and in the interviews I just read, she seems to be pretty clearly objecting to a particular minority group of Muslims, and anxious to affirm Islam itself in her own manner. Is that not her right?

ETA: Perhaps I was reading too fast, but I wrote the above, so I'm not going to delete it now. If I mistook your intention, I apologize. I will try to check out the movie, although it is not very easy to find Palestinian movies in Perú.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: rici ]


From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 27 February 2006 04:31 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Good heavens. What will they think of next?

Well you must go to snopes and read about the story that was too funny not to be an urban legend... but was true.

http://www.snopes.com/risque/tattled/cameltoad.asp


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 04:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I have spent some time in management meetings in regards to development of media images for artists, and I will tell you that I once worked with a band whose only reason for getting into Billboard Magazine was when the police started a riot at a show I worked on.

The business feeds on hype.

So, surely, there is some of this content which is no doubt legitimate expression, but in my view the content looks like it is being tailored to get attention. That is the way it works. There is no reason not to say it.

But there is also the manner in which labels, managers and pulicists "choose" what it is that they will market, and as far as the music industry goes there is a very limited set of things that women are allowed to be rebelious about, and that is, more often than not "sexual liberation."

Even Ani Difranco, Queen of the bisexual liberation in pop, is still identified in terms of "female sexual liberation." This is not to say that there is not a lot more to Ani Difranco, but to say that media focus on female sexuality in pop music, is indicative of marginalization of women generally, and is systemic.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 04:43 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A great deal of what passes for modern entertainment strikes me as trite, but I worry that I'm falling into old-fogeyism. All the same, I suppose she has as much right to make money from it as does, say, Shakira.

No kidding. A bikini?? In a rap video?? Why, I never!

If a bikini is sufficient to render her work trite and without any social merit, there goes the rest of rap too, I'm afraid. Any rappers who want to talk about the issues better be well clothed.

quote:
I don't see any reason to disbelieve her, and in the interviews I just read, she seems to be pretty clearly objecting to a particular minority group of Muslims, and anxious to affirm Islam itself in her own manner. Is that not her right?

I agree. It's fascinating to see how little support she's getting for that, and even more fascinating to see that that lack of support is because "her rap video is trite."


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 04:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

No kidding. A bikini?? In a rap video?? Why, I never!

If a bikini is sufficient to render her work trite and without any social merit, there goes the rest of rap too, I'm afraid. Any rappers who want to talk about the issues better be well clothed.


Exactly Magoo you've hit the nail on the head. This is no great big statment. This is mundane.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
kimmy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11914

posted 27 February 2006 04:47 PM      Profile for kimmy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by voice of the damned:
It's one thing to say "I disagree with the burqa and here's why", it's another to toss off the burqa and reveal a bikini while dancing on stage. The latter action is just likely to shock and alienate the very people who need to hear your message, thus ensuring that they never give you a hearing.

It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?


Ok... so, if I went back in time to see what Babblers were saying during the CPC policy convention in Montreal, would I find people criticizing the "Sodomobile" (with the paper mache effigy of Stephen Harper taking it up the ass) for shocking and alienating the people who needed to hear the message? Or would I find Babblers proclaiming it the greatest idea since the invention of Fire, and asking for instructions on how to turn their own cars into Sodomobiles?

(Just asking.)

quote:
Originally posted by brebis noire:
It's been noted that wearing a bikini is hardly a radical form of protest, at least in the West, so why should this be portrayed/supported as such?

Well, if she's been getting death threats, then perhaps *somebody* views this video as a radical form of protest.


From: Awesometon, Alberta! | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 04:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does Maralyn Manson get death threats or not, and what is the big deal about that?

What seems to be getting the hype here is that some Muslim people are making these threat, not that Pop stars don't have secret phone numbers and kiddies going through the mail to sort out the loony anti-fans.

What is so special about Muslim loonies that makes it the cornerstone to a marketing campaign. When its "Muslims" it gets portrayed as the tip of some vast international conspiracy of nutters, when its Christians its made out to be one or two loonies.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 04:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Reality. Bites.:

Well you must go to snopes and read about the story that was too funny not to be an urban legend... but was true.

http://www.snopes.com/risque/tattled/cameltoad.asp


That's very dear, isn't it. I hope it's true.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 27 February 2006 04:54 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Throughout history, artists, thinkers and writers who have rebelled against oppressive and authoritarian religious forces of whatever confession have always been condemned as outrageous or for exaggerating or for being obscene or some other such thing.

More power to rebels like her.

If we are serious about our opposition to religious fascism at home or abroad, we have to support artists like her.

The Catholic right, the Protestant right, the Jewish right, the Hindu right, the Moslem right, the Confucian right, they have all shared a hatred of artistic freedom, a hatred for questioning of orthodoxy and a hatred for female sexual self-expression.

What is it about the female body that religious cranks hate so much?


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 27 February 2006 04:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:

What is it about the female body that religious cranks hate so much?


I don't know that hatred of the female and the female body is limited to religious cranks.

It runs deep in secular North American society, I would say.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 04:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
Throughout history, artists, thinkers and writers who have rebelled against oppressive and authoritarian religious forces of whatever confession have always been condemned as outrageous or for exaggerating or for being obscene or some other such thing.

"Yea! More titties! [burp] Pass me a beer!"

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 27 February 2006 05:01 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Absolutely true skdadl, but relgiious conservatism seems to have a particularly pronounced and even violent obsession with repressing female sexual self-expression.

P.S. Cueball - you're kidding right? Any intro textbook on the history of literary and artistic censorship deals with the question. Go to your public library and ask the reference librarians to recommend a few texts on the subject. They will glad to help you, especialy as this is the Freedom to Read Week (the anti-censorship week) sponsored by the Canadian Library Association in association with literary and arts organizations across Canada. They probably even have an exhibit in your local library. Religious conservatives have always repressed outspoken artists, exiled them, banned them, burned their books, tortured them, killed them.

P.P.S. Cueball - you seem awfully obsessed with women's breasts.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 05:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sure CM2.

Why is it that the overwhelming majority of "icons" of female liberation, (the ones that we talk about and defend) in Western Pop music culture, are those who express their liberation through overt expression of sexuality?

And you're right CM2 I like "titties."

It is just that even I get tired of the constant parade of them one sees on MTV, and Much, and one has to wonder if there is more to "liberate" in women that their Mammalian Protuberances, sometimes.

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 27 February 2006 05:06 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't it past your bedtime, Cueball?
From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 05:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow! Enters with a panoramic and sententious sermon on religious suppression of sexuality, and then gets right down to the sandbox in 3 posts. That is a record even for you.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
marzo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12096

posted 27 February 2006 05:19 PM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some people have suggested that this pop star who took off her burka to reveal her nude body is accepting "sexist-objectification" oppression. I think that this opinion shows a puritanical revulsion of human beauty. In western cultures there are ancient traditions of natural aesthetics that have expression in classic art and olympic-type sport. I think that a lot of people are hung up on a "sex/nudity is sin/porno" type of thinking.
From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 27 February 2006 05:24 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know how you do it Cueball. I long ago gave up repeating myself to the obtuse. Well, at least to this extent! I salute your patience.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 27 February 2006 05:25 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is not really worth entering into a discussion with you Cueball.

Life is good, the weather is a bracing -25 with the windchill (my favourite winter weather), work is going extremely well, Babblers are posting intelligent commentaries, my wife and I are still very much in love after 17 years, my family is in great shape, things are pretty good.

You unfortunately spend your time on Babble trying to provoke fights through your constant attacks and condescending lectures.

Why should I waste time on someone I have to come to conclusion is simply out to lure people into useless flame wars? Life is too short.


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 27 February 2006 05:26 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Some people have suggested that this pop star who took off her burka to reveal her nude body is accepting "sexist-objectification" oppression. I think that this opinion shows a puritanical revulsion of human beauty. In western cultures there are ancient traditions of natural aesthetics that have expression in classic art and olympic-type sport. I think that a lot of people are hung up on a "sex/nudity is sin/porno" type of thinking.

No: it's fair to say that women's nudity is massively fetishized in Western (and many other) cultures. It's not equal. There may be a case that it's positive and liberatory to wash away one half of the fetishization (the extreme covering of "good" women)---but it don't mean much when you simultaneously increase the fetishization of "bad" women.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 27 February 2006 05:28 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You unfortunately spend your time on Babble trying to provoke fights through your constant attacks and condescending lectures.

Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. ...

You're one to talk, dude.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 05:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:

You unfortunately spend your time on Babble trying to provoke fights through your constant attacks and condescending lectures.


Actually I am waiting for a guy to come around and fix the washing machine, but that is another story.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 05:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
I don't know how you do it Cueball. I long ago gave up repeating myself to the obtuse. Well, at least to this extent! I salute your patience.

My patience? What are you talking about a figure of 17 years is being mentioned as a standard.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 27 February 2006 05:57 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does not compute.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 February 2006 06:47 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why is it that the overwhelming majority of "icons" of female liberation, (the ones that we talk about and defend) in Western Pop music culture, are those who express their liberation through overt expression of sexuality?

Why don't you tell them what they should liberate, speaking as a Western male.

And just for laughs, do it right here in the Feminism forum. And try not to be too harsh toward them, eh?

ed'd to add: who here thinks women got a lot of say in the matter of whether their bodies or their sexuality would be The Battleground?

Who here thinks the best way for a woman to tell a repressive patriarch "Hands off MY body" is to cover up, like he wants her to?

I can't believe this singer is being slagged for "showing skin", right here in the Feminist forum. And I also can't believe that Cueball is still trying to smear anyone who defends this woman's choice as being in it for the titty. That's beyond fucking offensive. If I'm not allowed to call Cueball an anti-semite or a racist, how is it OK for him to label anyone who disagrees with his views as to what this woman should and should not do as some kind of leering pervert?

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 27 February 2006 06:59 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball: Ah, I get it now.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10724

posted 27 February 2006 08:15 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
It is not really worth entering into a discussion with you Cueball.
Tell you the truth Q - I think you have a point. Liberation with a G string is the western mantra - the same way that FN wymmen have been eroticized, stereotyped and objectified, now Western Muslim wymmen are falling into that marketing trap.

[ 28 February 2006: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
kuri
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4202

posted 27 February 2006 09:25 PM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Natacha Atlas has been playing with genres for years, musical, racial, religous and politcal. And she can fucking sing.

...

Now that sounds to me like a woman taking a stand, not just pretending she is.


She sounds cool.

Another example is Algerian artist Souad Massi.

quote:
Souad Massi is a talented and courageous young guitarist and vocalist from Algeria, now based in Paris. ... Reminiscent of what Joan Baez said in the 1960s, she was not satisfied with being just an entertainer and became outspoken but this was a difficult stand to take and still remain in Algeria, especially for a young woman. She lost her job in town planning.

...
Algeria is always in the heart of both her music and life and she would like to make a positive contribution. Her family is still in Algeria but she wants to take advantage of the freedom of expression she has in Europe. She denounces the oppressors without being boastful nor activist. She feels that to remain silent would mean that terrorists have won and that all the intellectuals they murdered died for nothing.


Source.

Political, yes, but not sensationalist, and musical above all else. And, yes, she doesn't need to be sensationalist because she can sing.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 February 2006 09:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nice guitars. Gibsons.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 27 February 2006 09:48 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by voice of the damned:
It's one thing to say "I disagree with the burqa and here's why", it's another to toss off the burqa and reveal a bikini while dancing on stage. The latter action is just likely to shock and alienate the very people who need to hear your message, thus ensuring that they never give you a hearing.
It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?

Kimmy replied:

Ok... so, if I went back in time to see what Babblers were saying during the CPC policy convention in Montreal, would I find people criticizing the "Sodomobile" (with the paper mache effigy of Stephen Harper taking it up the ass) for shocking and alienating the people who needed to hear the message? Or would I find Babblers proclaiming it the greatest idea since the invention of Fire, and asking for instructions on how to turn their own cars into Sodomobiles?


Here's the difference: the people running the Sodomobile weren't CLAIMING to be dedicated members of the CPC, trying to get the party to change its stance on gay and lesbian issues. Clearly, when you adopt the tactics described in your post, you have decided that the political party you are criticizing is a lost cause. I assume the intention of the "Sodomobile" gang was simply to undermine the Conservative party by drawing attention to its bigotted policies through shock value.

Deeyah, on the other hand, is claiming to be a devout Muslim with the agenda of reforming(as opposed to undermining)Islam. And while I have no moral objections to her strip-teasing in a burqa, it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing you do to win support among fellow Muslims.

(And yes, I don't doubt that there are some babblers, so blighted by well-intentioned double standards, that they would praise the Sodmoobile as a heroic strike against religious bigotry, while lamenting Deeyah's callous insensitivity to the feelings of those wonderful Muslims. But I wouldn't have been one of them. The Sodomobile strikes me as utterly juvenile, the kinda thing you draw on the blackboard in Grade 7 to embarrass the substitute teacher.)

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

[ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 27 February 2006 10:44 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It reminds me of when Sinead O'Connor tore up the photograph of the Pope on national television.

Except for the death threats, of course. Death threats over a music video is clear and compelling evidence of irrationality, IMHO.


Seems to be a popular line of reasoning on various discussion boards and probably completely untrue. Of course Sinead would have got death threats just because the media didn't write about it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Of course blood-thirsty christians don't play the same in the media as blood-thirsty moslems.

I do recall some high profile threats of violence one coming from Frank Sinatra, Sinead responded by saying "it wasn't the first time Sinatra had threatened a woman." I think Joe Pisapoe might have been another. Tough guys...


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca