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Topic: Muslim pop star gets death threats over video
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jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798
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posted 27 February 2006 10:43 AM
In her video, the faces of "women who have been killed in the name of 'honour' " are projected on to Deeyah's naked back. She also dances in the streets wearing a halter top."My core message in this video is the right of a woman to choose her own path and express herself without the fear of violence or cultural excommunication," she says on Ms. Manji's Web site. "After years of being called a 'whore,' 'devil' and 'bringer of shame' by people who use Islam as their shield, I have decided to let this video speak for me ... I am tired of the people who clamour at the slightest hint of skin on a Muslim woman but who will not speak up when a woman is beaten and even murdered in the name of Islam." Hoda Fahmy, who works with a group that provides education to Muslim women in Canada, says Deeyah's message is lost along with the singer's clothing. "A lot of us are working for women's rights, particularly in the Muslim world. I think we have more self-respect than to dance around naked to make our point," she said. "It's unfortunate that she has to use those means, because it's true -- women are not able to speak up in a lot of these countries." © National Post 2006story Deeyah is a Norwegian-born artist. Is her approach to this issue a provocation to Muslims or does she have the right to freedom of expression? Irshad Manji (whom I have a great admiration and respect for is in the video,ripping a strip of tape from Deeyah's mouth).
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006
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voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943
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posted 27 February 2006 11:18 AM
quote: quote: Having said that, I am somewhat skeptical that this performer actually considers herself a Muslim in good standing. On the basis of what, exactly?
I dunno. Her whole approach(as outlined in the article) doesn't seem quite what I would expect from someone who was seriously concerned about Islam or the reformation thereof. It's one thing to say "I disagree with the burqa and here's why", it's another to toss off the burqa and reveal a bikini while dancing on stage. The latter action is just likely to shock and alienate the very people who need to hear your message, thus ensuring that they never give you a hearing. It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say? All that said, I have no attachment to Islam whatsoever, and will defend to the death her right to flash a bikini while wearing a burqa any time she wants. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]
From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 11:41 AM
quote: It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?
It reminds me of when Sinead O'Connor tore up the photograph of the Pope on national television. Except for the death threats, of course. Death threats over a music video is clear and compelling evidence of irrationality, IMHO. ed'd to add: curious sidebar. I thought I'd check and see if O'Connor might have received death threats over the Pope picture fiasco, but it appears she DID once receive death threats from fundamentalist Jews over her proposed appearance at a concert in Jerusalem. Maybe they put death threats in the water over there or something. Don't like your restaurant service? Make a death threat. Paperboy keeps throwing the paper in the hedge? Death threat. Someone making too many death threats at you? Death threat them. Good grief. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 27 February 2006 11:42 AM
Excuse moi? It was precisely when Manji's name popped up that I started the eye-rolling. If ever there was a publicity hound ...But of course. They both have the right to be media stars. It ain't art and it ain't intelligent, but I'm sure it's bringing in the bucks. So who cares? If either woman is receiving death threats, that is awful and they deserve protection. There is a topic here?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 11:53 AM
I really don't understand how association with Manji gives credibility. Manji herself seems to be a bit of grandstander herself. There are always those who gain noteriety by being more Catholic than the pope.Certainly death threats are reprehnsible, but are they really so unusual for public figures? It is not as if everytime Madonna got a death threat someone tried to make it a major cornerstone in her marketting strategy. Once again the accent here seems to be playing to base fears about Muslims for the 'western' audience, something that will no doubt help establish Deeyah marketability in the lucrative western markets. What is the message here? Throw off your veil so that you can be a sex object? Highly questionable as to taste and motive.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bonner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12160
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posted 27 February 2006 11:55 AM
quote: It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?
It's not like that at all. She's not having an audience with an Ayatollah, or powerpointing a conference of mullahs. quote: "After years of being called a 'whore,' 'devil' and 'bringer of shame' by people who use Islam as their shield, I have decided to let this video speak for me ... I am tired of the people who clamour at the slightest hint of skin on a Muslim woman but who will not speak up when a woman is beaten and even murdered in the name of Islam."
So you'll defend her right to flash a bikini while wearing a burqa, lol. That she would be beaten or murdered for doing so is what she is struggling against. More power to reformers like her. The power of the mullahs to suppress womens rights must be fought at every turn. Why not support that, voice of the damned, rather than cast doubt on her methods of fighting the misogynist establishment within Islam. quote: There is a topic here?
Of course there is a topic here, skdadl, the suppression and abuse of women by radical reactionaries within Islam. Why be so dismissive? Ripping duct tape from her mouth, nice symbolism.
From: Haven Hotel | Registered: Feb 2006
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voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943
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posted 27 February 2006 12:15 PM
quote: quote:votd wrote: It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say? Bonner replied: It's not like that at all. She's not having an audience with an Ayatollah, or powerpointing a conference of mullahs.
Okay, I'll fine-tune the comparison. It's as if Father Charles Curran, instead of writing yet another treatise on why the church is wrong about birth control, takes to dressing up as a giant condom and doing a tour of sing-a-long pubs to perform Monty Python's Every Sperm Is Sacred song. His supporters claim that this is a serious attempt by a devout Catholic to get the Pope to listen to his viewpoint. http://tinyurl.com/mxfj8
From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 12:21 PM
quote: It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?
Or maybe like a guy who wants to draw attention to the situation in Haiti who goes around flinging red paint at people. How is that neither polarizing nor attention-seeking? Here we're talking about a woman choosing to reveal parts of her own body that would be visible in abundance at pretty much any beach. If that's so polarizing, maybe she should polarize the hell out of things and we'll deal with it afterward, and meanwhile support her inalienable right to do whatever the hell she wants with her own body.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943
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posted 27 February 2006 12:23 PM
quote: Here we're talking about a woman choosing to reveal parts of her own body that would be visible in abundance at pretty much any beach. If that's so polarizing, maybe she should polarize the hell out of things and we'll deal with it afterward, and meanwhile support her inalienable right to do whatever the hell she wants with her own body.
I'm not opposing her right to do that, Magoo. I support Larry Flynt's right to make jokes about Jerry Falwell that resemble the type of jokes which could he heard in any juinor high gym locker in North America. That doesn't mean I agree that this is the most effective way to get Falwell's supporters to embrace secular tolerance. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]
From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 12:34 PM
quote: You think that people here don't get death threats?
Not, as a matter of course, over wearing a bikini. quote: Would you mind supporting our right to do that too?
If it makes you feel better, sneer away. I just think it's hilarious that wearing a bikini is somehow grandstanding and attention seeking, whereas flinging red paint is doing God's work, as is dressing up like a Raging Granny, or launching teddy bears with a catapult. Is it the Manji connection that's tainting her? The fear that some political enemy might capitalize on this? It seems to me that she's really not doing anything that warrants sneering.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 12:47 PM
quote: On Ms. Manji's official Web site, she said she participated in the video because Deeyah represents "integrity and independence of thought." She added that since the release of the video, Deeyah has received a string of death threats and media outlets have "succumbed to the intimidation of angry Muslims, and are low-balling a great tune."
I have never heard a band not complain that the media and their record label were not "low-balling" their music when it failed to go top ten. It is really hard, but sometimes necessary, to tell people that there is no media conspiracy and the reality is that people don't like your music. This is such a bunch of P.T. Barnum crock-o-shit promotion.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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sidra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11490
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posted 27 February 2006 01:01 PM
quote: I admire the courage of Deeyah, Irshad Manji and others who make strong statements while under threat from bullies, fascists and misogynists. I have never made any serious effort to learn about Islam and I probably never will. I have learned enough about Islam from the Iranian revolution, the Salman Rushdie fatwa, public beheadings of adulteresses in Saudi Arabia, the suicide-bomber cults,and the reaction to the cartoon prophets that could move the world closer to global nuclear war.
I guess we did hear enough about Inquisitions, about 'witches' burnt alive, earths that are flat, savage aboriginals in Africa and the Americas being exterminated and decimated.. but only morons would judge Christianity or Jesus on such "learning".
If you refuse to get some education, nobody will force it on you. Some people -and beasts- seem comfortable sitting on rot.
From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 01:38 PM
Natacha Atlas has been playing with genres for years, musical, racial, religous and politcal. And she can fucking sing.Egyptian singer plays the occidental tourist quote: "When I was living in Egypt, I got a lot of offers to come and play in tents during Ramadan," Atlas nods. "The next step is for you to join the circuit and start doing weddings, hotels and become someone's official musician. You make a fuck of a lot of money and live this ridiculous, pampered life, with servants and hired cars, but it's a bit dry."On the other side, I get that Roger Taylor guy from Duran Duran asking me to come and sing. I'm a massive fan, but he was a cheap bastard, so I said no."
Now that sounds to me like a woman taking a stand, not just pretending she is. She did a brilliant version of "I Put A Spell On You," using traditional Arabic melody produced as European pop with influences of "Druam and Bass" and other contemporary styles. This is not a stunt: Halte à la violence contre les femmes -- Amnesty International
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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rici
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2710
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posted 27 February 2006 02:27 PM
An article about Norwegian "world music" from 1997. Deeyah appears in the last few paragraphs (under her real name). Distance No Object quote: At school concerts, audiences laughed till they cried when funny little Deepika sang - she was so exotic. Behind the charm and the smile were all the things that were not so visible: her musical talent and extremely hard work. Through her father and later teachers such as the recently deceased raga master Ustad Fateh Ali Khan now deceased and sarangi master Ustad Sultan Khan, she acquired enough knowledge to dare. You can't allow yourself to experiment before you have a good grounding in musical theory. In order to break barriers, you have to know what you are breaking. These principles are the basic foundation of her career; she wanted to be noticed for something where the colour of her skin was irrelevant. She had to choose between music and sport, activities where performance alone counts. Paradoxically, according to the experts, race and gender mean something today because everything else about her is undisputed.
I assume this is the same Deepika Thatlaal who appears on Jan Garbarek's 1992 album Ragas and Sagas. I admit that I don't quite get hip-hop, but that Garbarek disc is wonderful, in my humble opinion. Why is it so hard to just take people at face value?
From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 02:44 PM
quote: That doesn't mean I agree that this is the most effective way to get Falwell's supporters to embrace secular tolerance.
Maybe it's time to wonder if that's ever going to happen. Like, ever. I don't think it will, anymore than a careful, cautious, inoffensive information campaign about meat is liable to get vegans eating it. So if Fundamentalists aren't ever going to stop being Fundamentalists, I applaud anyone who reminds them that they aren't "right", they don't rule the world, and they certainly don't rule us. Anyone antagonizing a fundie starts off as OK in my book.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 02:53 PM
quote: Originally posted by rici: Why is it so hard to just take people at face value?
Good question. "Face value." Whom gave her permission to use the faces of murdered women to make her political point? Did she bother asking? I mean really, were there no other means of getting her point across. Natacha Atlas seems to be able to make her point without resorting to shock theatre? What could be more of a "personal" statement than the photo of Natacha Atlas, in an Belly Dancer outfit and holding the end of a Hooka pipe, with obvious symbolic overtones. She isn't attacking Islam, but attacking the fundamentalist values by being what they abhor, proudly, withou going out of her way to insult or derride anyone. Class vs. trash. Let me know when Deeyah is doing her next Amnesty International promotion, uses the word "fuck" in an interview, or says someone like Roger Taylor is "cheap" in an interview. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 03:01 PM
quote: Good question. "Face value." Whom gave her permission to use the faces of murdered women to make her political point. Did she bother asking? I mean really, were there no other means of getting her point across.
You're seriously asking this? Remember little Ali, the kid who got both of his arms blown off? And whose picture graced babble about a dozen times? Did any babbler ever ask HIM if it was OK?? Or, as you ask, was there no other way of getting their point across? quote: Let me know when Deeyah is doing her next Amnesty International promotion.
What on earth does that have to do with it?? Are the only credible activists on the planet the 12 or so singers on this album? Is everyone else a sham because Amnesty didn't ask them? Good grief. She's challenging fundamentalism and this is what she gets for it? I'm curious what's really going on here. When did challenging fundies require that Amnesty ask you to be on their album? When did babblers supporting the challenging of fundies depend on them "not being confrontational" about it?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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rici
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2710
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posted 27 February 2006 03:05 PM
quote: Whom gave her permission to use the faces of murdered women to make her political point.
Gosh, I don't know. Who should she have asked, do you think? Using photos of dead and disappeared victims of South American torture regimes was (and continues to be) a fairly common, though as you say shocking, approach to highlighting the issue. I've seen such demonstrations, including concerts, all over South America, as well as in Spain and Canada. I've even held such posters myself. I don't believe anyone ever had trouble figuring out that we were protesting particular torturers and the dictators who gave them orders, and not seeking to derogate all Latinos.
From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 03:43 PM
quote: How trite and predictable.
Ya, not at all clever like fake blood. Maybe she just wants to piss off a few fundamentalists. If so, why not? Are you worried that they'll pop a vein in their heads or something? Anything that gets under their skin is a good thing, so long as it's as utter harmless as wearing a bathing suit. Don't you think?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 03:52 PM
quote: Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Anything that gets under their skin is a good thing, so long as it's as utter harmless as wearing a bathing suit. Don't you think?
Just as long as you get to see some right Magoo? Skin that is. Everything is AOK.
What a dunce. You are making me look awesomer by the minute. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 03:55 PM
quote: Just as long as you get to see some right Magoo? Skin that is. Everything is AOK.What a dunce.
And what an offensive remark. Where have I given any indication that I wish to see this artist's "skin". I find this accusation odious.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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rici
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2710
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posted 27 February 2006 04:12 PM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball: The whole thing seems a little trite frankly.
A great deal of what passes for modern entertainment strikes me as trite, but I worry that I'm falling into old-fogeyism. All the same, I suppose she has as much right to make money from it as does, say, Shakira. By the way, you really should listen to the Jan Garbarek album. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: rici ]
From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 04:16 PM
quote: Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Ya. She has to show her camel toe. That's all I care about.
So here, why are you coming after me for saying this is "trite" and "this video might have been saying a whole lot more about female empowerment, not just about Islamic conservatism, but also western 'objectification,' if she stripped from Burqua to business suit." What is the big problem with my saying that and why are you arguing with me? What is your issue? [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 04:26 PM
quote: Originally posted by rici:
A great deal of what passes for modern entertainment strikes me as trite, but I worry that I'm falling into old-fogeyism. All the same, I suppose she has as much right to make money from it as does, say, Shakira. By the way, you really should listen to the Jan Garbarek album. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: rici ]
Thanks, I'll look into that. I have no arguement with your assertion that much of modern culture is trite, and in that framework things such as Madonna's overt "sexualization" of herself has a revolutionary aspect to it, when framed in the context of the pop-culture standard, however that does not mean that a critique of the framework should not be made. You should check out the Palestinian movie "Devine Intervention" which features Natacha Atlas's version of "I Put a Spell on You," as much as saying anything about the occupation the film dispels a lot of myths about the ultra-conservative nature of Arab society.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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rici
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2710
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posted 27 February 2006 04:27 PM
I didn't complain about you calling it trite. In fact, I'm not sure that I complained about anything you said, but since you ask, I have to say that I find: quote: This is such a bunch of P.T. Barnum crock-o-shit promotion
needlessly offensive, and, in my opinion, simply presented for shock value. Of course, you have a right to say it, and I have a right to say that it's rude. So no argument there. I do disagree with your contention that Deeyah doesn't know how to sing. She does. She has a gorgeous voice. I haven't listened to her hip-hop stuff, as I'm not a fan of hip-hop, but when I heard her earlier CD some years ago in Norway, I was pretty impressed. That's just a question of taste, so it's not particularly important. My comment about taking people at face value was derived from your implication that she is (a) lying, and (b) spreading anti-Muslim propaganda. I don't see any reason to disbelieve her, and in the interviews I just read, she seems to be pretty clearly objecting to a particular minority group of Muslims, and anxious to affirm Islam itself in her own manner. Is that not her right? ETA: Perhaps I was reading too fast, but I wrote the above, so I'm not going to delete it now. If I mistook your intention, I apologize. I will try to check out the movie, although it is not very easy to find Palestinian movies in Perú. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: rici ]
From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 04:41 PM
Well, I have spent some time in management meetings in regards to development of media images for artists, and I will tell you that I once worked with a band whose only reason for getting into Billboard Magazine was when the police started a riot at a show I worked on. The business feeds on hype. So, surely, there is some of this content which is no doubt legitimate expression, but in my view the content looks like it is being tailored to get attention. That is the way it works. There is no reason not to say it. But there is also the manner in which labels, managers and pulicists "choose" what it is that they will market, and as far as the music industry goes there is a very limited set of things that women are allowed to be rebelious about, and that is, more often than not "sexual liberation." Even Ani Difranco, Queen of the bisexual liberation in pop, is still identified in terms of "female sexual liberation." This is not to say that there is not a lot more to Ani Difranco, but to say that media focus on female sexuality in pop music, is indicative of marginalization of women generally, and is systemic.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 04:43 PM
quote: A great deal of what passes for modern entertainment strikes me as trite, but I worry that I'm falling into old-fogeyism. All the same, I suppose she has as much right to make money from it as does, say, Shakira.
No kidding. A bikini?? In a rap video?? Why, I never! If a bikini is sufficient to render her work trite and without any social merit, there goes the rest of rap too, I'm afraid. Any rappers who want to talk about the issues better be well clothed. quote: I don't see any reason to disbelieve her, and in the interviews I just read, she seems to be pretty clearly objecting to a particular minority group of Muslims, and anxious to affirm Islam itself in her own manner. Is that not her right?
I agree. It's fascinating to see how little support she's getting for that, and even more fascinating to see that that lack of support is because "her rap video is trite."
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 04:46 PM
quote: Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
No kidding. A bikini?? In a rap video?? Why, I never! If a bikini is sufficient to render her work trite and without any social merit, there goes the rest of rap too, I'm afraid. Any rappers who want to talk about the issues better be well clothed.
Exactly Magoo you've hit the nail on the head. This is no great big statment. This is mundane.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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kimmy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11914
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posted 27 February 2006 04:47 PM
quote: Originally posted by voice of the damned: It's one thing to say "I disagree with the burqa and here's why", it's another to toss off the burqa and reveal a bikini while dancing on stage. The latter action is just likely to shock and alienate the very people who need to hear your message, thus ensuring that they never give you a hearing.It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say?
Ok... so, if I went back in time to see what Babblers were saying during the CPC policy convention in Montreal, would I find people criticizing the "Sodomobile" (with the paper mache effigy of Stephen Harper taking it up the ass) for shocking and alienating the people who needed to hear the message? Or would I find Babblers proclaiming it the greatest idea since the invention of Fire, and asking for instructions on how to turn their own cars into Sodomobiles? (Just asking.) quote: Originally posted by brebis noire: It's been noted that wearing a bikini is hardly a radical form of protest, at least in the West, so why should this be portrayed/supported as such?
Well, if she's been getting death threats, then perhaps *somebody* views this video as a radical form of protest.
From: Awesometon, Alberta! | Registered: Jan 2006
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 04:51 PM
Does Maralyn Manson get death threats or not, and what is the big deal about that? What seems to be getting the hype here is that some Muslim people are making these threat, not that Pop stars don't have secret phone numbers and kiddies going through the mail to sort out the loony anti-fans. What is so special about Muslim loonies that makes it the cornerstone to a marketing campaign. When its "Muslims" it gets portrayed as the tip of some vast international conspiracy of nutters, when its Christians its made out to be one or two loonies. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 27 February 2006 04:52 PM
quote: Originally posted by Reality. Bites.:
Well you must go to snopes and read about the story that was too funny not to be an urban legend... but was true. http://www.snopes.com/risque/tattled/cameltoad.asp
That's very dear, isn't it. I hope it's true.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908
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posted 27 February 2006 04:54 PM
Throughout history, artists, thinkers and writers who have rebelled against oppressive and authoritarian religious forces of whatever confession have always been condemned as outrageous or for exaggerating or for being obscene or some other such thing.More power to rebels like her. If we are serious about our opposition to religious fascism at home or abroad, we have to support artists like her. The Catholic right, the Protestant right, the Jewish right, the Hindu right, the Moslem right, the Confucian right, they have all shared a hatred of artistic freedom, a hatred for questioning of orthodoxy and a hatred for female sexual self-expression. What is it about the female body that religious cranks hate so much?
From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 27 February 2006 04:56 PM
quote: Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
What is it about the female body that religious cranks hate so much?
I don't know that hatred of the female and the female body is limited to religious cranks. It runs deep in secular North American society, I would say.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908
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posted 27 February 2006 05:01 PM
Absolutely true skdadl, but relgiious conservatism seems to have a particularly pronounced and even violent obsession with repressing female sexual self-expression.P.S. Cueball - you're kidding right? Any intro textbook on the history of literary and artistic censorship deals with the question. Go to your public library and ask the reference librarians to recommend a few texts on the subject. They will glad to help you, especialy as this is the Freedom to Read Week (the anti-censorship week) sponsored by the Canadian Library Association in association with literary and arts organizations across Canada. They probably even have an exhibit in your local library. Religious conservatives have always repressed outspoken artists, exiled them, banned them, burned their books, tortured them, killed them. P.P.S. Cueball - you seem awfully obsessed with women's breasts. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]
From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 27 February 2006 05:05 PM
Sure CM2. Why is it that the overwhelming majority of "icons" of female liberation, (the ones that we talk about and defend) in Western Pop music culture, are those who express their liberation through overt expression of sexuality? And you're right CM2 I like "titties." It is just that even I get tired of the constant parade of them one sees on MTV, and Much, and one has to wonder if there is more to "liberate" in women that their Mammalian Protuberances, sometimes. [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908
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posted 27 February 2006 05:25 PM
It is not really worth entering into a discussion with you Cueball.Life is good, the weather is a bracing -25 with the windchill (my favourite winter weather), work is going extremely well, Babblers are posting intelligent commentaries, my wife and I are still very much in love after 17 years, my family is in great shape, things are pretty good. You unfortunately spend your time on Babble trying to provoke fights through your constant attacks and condescending lectures. Why should I waste time on someone I have to come to conclusion is simply out to lure people into useless flame wars? Life is too short.
From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 27 February 2006 06:47 PM
quote: Why is it that the overwhelming majority of "icons" of female liberation, (the ones that we talk about and defend) in Western Pop music culture, are those who express their liberation through overt expression of sexuality?
Why don't you tell them what they should liberate, speaking as a Western male. And just for laughs, do it right here in the Feminism forum. And try not to be too harsh toward them, eh? ed'd to add: who here thinks women got a lot of say in the matter of whether their bodies or their sexuality would be The Battleground? Who here thinks the best way for a woman to tell a repressive patriarch "Hands off MY body" is to cover up, like he wants her to? I can't believe this singer is being slagged for "showing skin", right here in the Feminist forum. And I also can't believe that Cueball is still trying to smear anyone who defends this woman's choice as being in it for the titty. That's beyond fucking offensive. If I'm not allowed to call Cueball an anti-semite or a racist, how is it OK for him to label anyone who disagrees with his views as to what this woman should and should not do as some kind of leering pervert? [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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kuri
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4202
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posted 27 February 2006 09:25 PM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball: Natacha Atlas has been playing with genres for years, musical, racial, religous and politcal. And she can fucking sing.... Now that sounds to me like a woman taking a stand, not just pretending she is.
She sounds cool. Another example is Algerian artist Souad Massi. quote: Souad Massi is a talented and courageous young guitarist and vocalist from Algeria, now based in Paris. ... Reminiscent of what Joan Baez said in the 1960s, she was not satisfied with being just an entertainer and became outspoken but this was a difficult stand to take and still remain in Algeria, especially for a young woman. She lost her job in town planning.... Algeria is always in the heart of both her music and life and she would like to make a positive contribution. Her family is still in Algeria but she wants to take advantage of the freedom of expression she has in Europe. She denounces the oppressors without being boastful nor activist. She feels that to remain silent would mean that terrorists have won and that all the intellectuals they murdered died for nothing.
Source.Political, yes, but not sensationalist, and musical above all else. And, yes, she doesn't need to be sensationalist because she can sing.
From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003
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voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943
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posted 27 February 2006 09:48 PM
quote: quote: Originally posted by voice of the damned: It's one thing to say "I disagree with the burqa and here's why", it's another to toss off the burqa and reveal a bikini while dancing on stage. The latter action is just likely to shock and alienate the very people who need to hear your message, thus ensuring that they never give you a hearing. It's like if a Catholic, to express his opposition to church teaching on birth control, shows up for a papal audience dressed as a giant condom. Would you assume his purpose was REALLY to get the Pope to listen to what he had to say? Kimmy replied: Ok... so, if I went back in time to see what Babblers were saying during the CPC policy convention in Montreal, would I find people criticizing the "Sodomobile" (with the paper mache effigy of Stephen Harper taking it up the ass) for shocking and alienating the people who needed to hear the message? Or would I find Babblers proclaiming it the greatest idea since the invention of Fire, and asking for instructions on how to turn their own cars into Sodomobiles?
Here's the difference: the people running the Sodomobile weren't CLAIMING to be dedicated members of the CPC, trying to get the party to change its stance on gay and lesbian issues. Clearly, when you adopt the tactics described in your post, you have decided that the political party you are criticizing is a lost cause. I assume the intention of the "Sodomobile" gang was simply to undermine the Conservative party by drawing attention to its bigotted policies through shock value. Deeyah, on the other hand, is claiming to be a devout Muslim with the agenda of reforming(as opposed to undermining)Islam. And while I have no moral objections to her strip-teasing in a burqa, it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing you do to win support among fellow Muslims. (And yes, I don't doubt that there are some babblers, so blighted by well-intentioned double standards, that they would praise the Sodmoobile as a heroic strike against religious bigotry, while lamenting Deeyah's callous insensitivity to the feelings of those wonderful Muslims. But I wouldn't have been one of them. The Sodomobile strikes me as utterly juvenile, the kinda thing you draw on the blackboard in Grade 7 to embarrass the substitute teacher.) [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ] [ 27 February 2006: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]
From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004
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N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258
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posted 27 February 2006 10:44 PM
quote: It reminds me of when Sinead O'Connor tore up the photograph of the Pope on national television. Except for the death threats, of course. Death threats over a music video is clear and compelling evidence of irrationality, IMHO.
Seems to be a popular line of reasoning on various discussion boards and probably completely untrue. Of course Sinead would have got death threats just because the media didn't write about it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Of course blood-thirsty christians don't play the same in the media as blood-thirsty moslems. I do recall some high profile threats of violence one coming from Frank Sinatra, Sinead responded by saying "it wasn't the first time Sinatra had threatened a woman." I think Joe Pisapoe might have been another. Tough guys...
From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001
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