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Author Topic: Frustrating experience on the Ms. Magazine boards
audra trower williams
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posted 19 March 2004 02:03 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This made me really thankful for y'all.

I don't get in there until the 3rd page, at what point I was told:

quote:
audra -

Women are MORE than "boobs and curves" - we have BRAINS !! - you might want to think about putting the down the latest issue of Cosmo (20 ways to please your man !) and pick up a book by a REAL feminist. Enlighten yourself, it`s not 1957 anymore.


[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 19 March 2004 02:16 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have posted exactly once there. It's too unbearable to vist often or try and contribute. It's constant wars between cliques there.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
beverly
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posted 19 March 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for beverly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I read it, very atriculate audra.

My comment to some of your distractors would be, " SO 1970s Feminism." But then well I won't go on about Ms. ......

Congrats on the Happy Day. And wished for wedded bliss to you both!


From: In my Apartment!!!! | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 19 March 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I bet people think we're cliquey too, though. I actually don't ever remember participating in a board that wasn't clique. Possibly the Daily Kos seems somewhat non-cliquey.

Cliques aren't always a bad thing though.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 19 March 2004 02:25 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We sure might be cliquey too but do some digging in that site and you'll see, we are amatures!
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
beverly
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posted 19 March 2004 02:33 PM      Profile for beverly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We sure might be cliquey too but do some digging in that site and you'll see, we are amatures!

Scout, could you just please explain, I really don't have time to do excuvation work, and besides it sounds heavy.


From: In my Apartment!!!! | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 March 2004 02:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
I bet people think we're cliquey too, though. I actually don't ever remember participating in a board that wasn't clique. Possibly the Daily Kos seems somewhat non-cliquey.

Yeah, dKos isn't so cliquey, but boy, some of them sure do sound the troll alarm easily. Those who refuse to fellate John Kerry (or those who, heaven forbid, criticize him or say they don't like him!) are given troll ratings by some of the regulars there. Luckily, most of the people there aren't like that though.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 19 March 2004 02:50 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They have at times singled out posters and accused them of lying or lying about their gender, trolling and all manner of things and will stalk them from thread to thread. Then came the utter bitching and moaning and contempt for the moderators. On top of it it seemed certain groups of posters travelled around in packs and would rage at anyone they felt wasn't feminist enough, much like they happened to Audra only worse. It was like some insane high school popularity contest on a feminist forum. It was ironic. Then I stopped going back.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 19 March 2004 02:50 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lotta hostility there.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
terra1st
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posted 19 March 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for terra1st     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well spoken audra.
From: saskatoon | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
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posted 19 March 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I spent several years there, much longer than most of the members of the cliques have and was treated like a woman-hating troll merely for disagreeing with some moderation decisions and the tactics used by the two ruling cliques. Ms was not always like it is now but a lot different. Most of the regular posters, probably 3/4 of them have left in the past six months.

With all the bannings of feminists there by the moderation and insistance by the moderation that those bannings were final, it's ironic that the one poster who got reinstated had used an ethnic slur and refused to apologize. She belongs to the "women as women if they only identify themselves as women first" clique. Another who used the same slur but apologized, is still banned. She didn't belong to any of the ruling cliques. Some great women were banned and those who defend them are called "women-hating trolls" b/c the cliques didn't like them, others were banned for speaking on their behalf. Even banned posters can get other posters banned, b/c you don't need to be registered to use the "whisle blowing" function. Certain people even when they're abusive towards posters apparently can't be banned at all.

When all the true feminists left, the place was taken over by those who are just there on power trips, while calling themselves feminists. Some of the biggest bullies claim it's a better place b/c they felt "silenced" before, ironic considering how many women they've chased off.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Madame X ]


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ruby Tuesday
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posted 19 March 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Ruby Tuesday     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi audra. I'm a longtime lurker here, but I haven't posted much. I saw the thread you're talking about at Ms, and recognized your name.

I've been registered at Ms. for a while, and have had to take long breaks from the place. I'm in the middle of one at the moment, but somebody gave me a link to the thread you're talking about, when we were discussing Rich's territorial pissing.

To call the Ms. boards cliquish is quite an understatement. There's one clique that sort of acts as the board enforcers, and make a kind of sport out of running women off. Some of us lovingly call them the Goon Squad, or the goonies for short.

Rich is one of the nastier trolls at Ms, whom the goonies have embraced, and the moderators have chosen to tolerate, along with the goonies themselves. I do find it so ironic that these women, who claim to be "woman centered" after the fashion of Mary Daly, will defend a man who consistently shows that he doesn't even like women very much, and attack women who happen to have a different view of feminism than they do. They basically give Rich a free pass because he despises pretty much the same women they do.

I'm sorry your experience there was so frustrating, Audra. A lot of women who used to be regulars there have bailed in the past few months, for just the reason you're discussing here.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Ruby Tuesday ]


From: would never say | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
windymustang
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posted 19 March 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for windymustang     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sure reads like you got beat up Audra. Your dialogue was very interesting. It would be a great thread here. Why don't you post it here? I really don't know how I feel about the topic...kind of like you I think... You expressed your feelings and reasons behind them very well.

I'm sorry that those people at Ms. were so mean to you.


From: from the locker of Mad Mary Flint | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
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posted 19 March 2004 05:38 PM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've been reading the Ms board all afternoon (don't tell my boss!!) after following the link to the forum where they all jumped on Audra. Seems to me they're pretty wrapped up in a small, exclusive definition of feminism, and they're pretty defensive about it.

They're so wrapped up in this particular feminism, in fact, that they miss a lot of the rest of what's going on. Fer instance: Howard Stern's show being cut from the Clear Channel lineup seems to be nothing but good news to them. Very little mention of the freedom of speech side of his existence, or the important role that agitators like him play in the mass media, and only one poster in the two-page forum mentioned that he might actually have been cut because of his anti-bush sentiments and not because he's otherwise offensive at all.

I found most of the boards I read there to be pretty frustrating, actually. They're definitely not the same kind of feminists that I consider myself to be. But then, I'm often frustrated and irritated by Ms. magazine too.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: Lizard Breath ]


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
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posted 19 March 2004 05:48 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was an early subscriber to Ms. It seemed like a miracle to me that such a magazine existed. But I too became frustrated and irritated by it at different times over the years. I look at it online now and then but it doesn't have the same magic for me that it used to have.
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 19 March 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That board (which I just spent an hour or so browsing) is a fantastic example of how, when many women are unfettered by overt patriarchal dynamics, they seem to fall into a power dynamic that is largely indistinguishable from patriarchy (to me).

In other words, it's all about power and legitimacy. It's terrible to see people arguing with each other over whose personal sexual identity is more legitimate.

[ 19 March 2004: Message edited by: verbatim ]


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
andrean
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posted 19 March 2004 10:22 PM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
verbatim, I'd suggest that your assesment isn't true only of women, but of a whole subset of men and women who struggle only to replace the current power structure with their own. Lots of folks are unhappy to be oppressed but would only too gladly step into the dominant role.
From: etobicoke-lakeshore | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 19 March 2004 10:39 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree andrean. However, my impression when reading the threads there is that the participants are under the impression that the debate they are undertaking is essentially feminist in nature, when it seems to be much more like a simple dominance dynamic. Which, as you point out, is not limited to men, and I would argue is more fundamental to the human experience than sex or gender. Even so, it seems almost deliciously ironic that these people are aligning the motive force behind patriarchy to impress the feminist legitimacy of their particular experience of womanhood. Again, these are my impressions from the outside, of course.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ruby Tuesday
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posted 19 March 2004 11:46 PM      Profile for Ruby Tuesday     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As a former "insider" there, I agree, verbatim.

There are some at Ms who consider patriarchal dominance games to not only be feminist, but radically so. And of course, they also consider any criticism of this behavior to be antifeminist. And worse, they appear to have sold these ideas to the person who is currently acting as moderator.

This week, someone who had been banned for anti-Semitic slurs and stereotypes was reinstated. The same day, a woman who had strenuously denounced her anti-Semitic slurs and stereotypes was banned. So it appears that anti-racism has been declared antifeminist on Ms, that their version of feminism is centered strictly on white middle class gentiles, and that any woman who has a problem with that had better keep her silence.

If I really mistook what's happening at Ms with the state of the women's movement, or even thought it had anything to do with feminism, I'd say the movement was doomed.

[ 20 March 2004: Message edited by: Ruby Tuesday ]


From: would never say | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Hoffman
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posted 20 March 2004 12:36 AM      Profile for Jesse Hoffman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, other forums I have posted have had some very very frustrating, annoying, difficult people, it very much makes me appreciate this one.

And yes very well spolen argument indeed Audra, I particularly found this amusing.

"Your eye-rolly-smileys are a compelling argument, but I stand by my statement. "


From: Peterborough, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
beachcomber
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posted 20 March 2004 02:28 PM      Profile for beachcomber   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi Audra,

I saw you over there and seriously considered just warning you away. But I figured you'd see the place for what it was in no time.

The Ms Boards long ago ceased to be about feminism. I started posting there 4 years ago and have seen it decline into a mire of warring factions. It was a cool board once, but I doubt it could ever get back to that. Discussion is nearly impossible if you disagree with the feminist rhetoric pushed by a small but strangely powerful handful of members.

Cut your losses! You've got a much cooler community around you right here.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
athena_dreaming
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posted 20 March 2004 02:54 PM      Profile for athena_dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i remember a number of years ago i used to post at the bust magazine board quite a bit. one day one of the regular busties came back from an excursion to ms., and pointed out that there was a whole thread dedicated to dismissing BUST magazine and everyone who posted on the BUST boards as imitation feminists without any political consciousness.

Oh, the flame war that resulted. The cross-posting, the calling of names, the formation and buttressing of clique lines.

I'm not sure if any of the ms.ers from back then are still around, but if tey are and you really want to get their goats up, start a thread called "BUST magazine is great! I love it!" They will be on you like stink on socks.

It is a *very* cliquish board.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
beverly
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posted 20 March 2004 04:13 PM      Profile for beverly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you Audra for bringing us this thread. I have never bothered with the Ms. Board because years ago I was disillusioned with the magazine. I feel much better knowing that I wasn't alone.
From: In my Apartment!!!! | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
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posted 20 March 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, that board STILL sucks. I stopped reading when an increasing amount of new posters had Andrea Dworkin sigs. I have an informal rule about sigs too. The longer they are allowed to be, the less the board is worth my time. Why suck bandwidth with the same Dworkin/Radical Feminist trope over and over?

Anyhow, humourless cliques are so grade 4. Give me some celebration of totally different opinions a la HeywoodFloyd at Babble.

There is just no excuse to slag on Scarletteen. What is wrong with those people?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 March 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I can't imagine what on earth a feminist would have against Scarleteen. I can see moral majority types being up in arms about it, but feminists? Good grief. I couldn't believe what that one guy was saying on there - that giving girls information about sex is making them more available to be exploited by boys. If that ain't straight out of the Jerry Falwell playbook, I don't know what is.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 20 March 2004 06:51 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, everyone, for saying so many nice things. I have read the Ms Boards a handful of times, but never bothered posting. But then when they started in on my beloved Heather (we're good friends), I had to get in there.

It got a bit more reasonable today. A few people came in and got my back a bit.

But then someone got all huffy about a part of Heather's journal where she talked about dancing around in her underwear.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 March 2004 07:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, we all know that dancing around in your underwear makes you a bad feminist.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 20 March 2004 07:45 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's a problem with basing a consciousness on "the personal is political": it taints all argument with a certain amount of ad hominem flavouring. Many of the posts in that thread appeared to me to be a discussion about whose personal sexual identity was "correct", rather than a discussion about how sexuality is constructed in public space. Michelle's last comment here makes the point succinctly. However, it seems to be a problem that's endemic inside a lot of the feminist conversations I've witnessed. It's not an inherent weakness of feminism, but rather of people who insist on totalizing ideologies that puport to capture some sphere of human existence.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ruby Tuesday
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posted 20 March 2004 09:05 PM      Profile for Ruby Tuesday     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There's a problem with basing a consciousness on "the personal is political": it taints all argument with a certain amount of ad hominem flavouring.

Only if you insist on misreading the originally intended meaning of "the personal is political," as so many of the Msers do. And that could be a real good discussion in itself.


[edited for clarity]

[ 21 March 2004: Message edited by: Ruby Tuesday ]


From: would never say | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
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posted 22 March 2004 05:42 PM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey, how long did y'all have to wait for your login to be approved, before they'd let you post at Ms.? I tried to register so I could post there on the weekend, and I still haven't been notified of any approval status yet. I'm gettin' antsy.

And what's up with that anyways? Are they doing some kind of background check on me or having a committee meeting about how well they think I'd get along with the rest of the group? I wonder what criteria they use when considering a would-be Ms.er...


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
beverly
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posted 22 March 2004 05:53 PM      Profile for beverly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
LB Obviously, they are checking to see if you dance around in your underwear. Because as Michelle pointed out...

quote:
we all know that dancing around in your underwear makes you a bad feminist.

From: In my Apartment!!!! | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 22 March 2004 05:58 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

There's always the chance that it will turn you into Tom Cruise. That's not very feminist, by anyone's definition.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
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posted 22 March 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Starting a thread on Bust magazine is definitely going to get you off on the wrong foot.

There were a lot of really good people there at Ms, believe it or not. The majority of them have split, because of the clique battles and the intolerance for more than one brand of feminism that is the dominating force there now.


From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 22 March 2004 06:06 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Well, we all know that dancing around in your underwear makes you a bad feminist.

Maybe if you burn your bra while you dance?


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 22 March 2004 06:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While it's on??
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
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posted 22 March 2004 06:45 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ouch!
From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ruby Tuesday
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posted 22 March 2004 09:06 PM      Profile for Ruby Tuesday     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Madame X:
Starting a thread on Bust magazine is definitely going to get you off on the wrong foot.

There were a lot of really good people there at Ms, believe it or not. The majority of them have split, because of the clique battles and the intolerance for more than one brand of feminism that is the dominating force there now.



Yeah, it was really a good discussion space when I first found it. There was even a brief moment of sanity last summer and fall. But of course, that brought on the backlash you're seeing now. It's mostly being trashed a small but arrogant and insistent handful of self-annointed "radical feminists," who in my opinion are neither radical nor feminist.

Until I saw the turmoil they created at Ms, I thought "feminists" like that were the overblown figments of some crazed right-wing misogynists' imaginations. Now I see that yes, they do exist, but mostly as an unconscoius parody of the movement, not as the movement itself.

[ 22 March 2004: Message edited by: Ruby Tuesday ]


From: would never say | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 22 March 2004 09:52 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As an outsider to the feminist movement (i.e. I am not a woman), but as a male feminist (if you can accept that possibility), I have to say that the phenomenon on the Ms. Boards that people are describing seems to be a microcosm of what has happened to the feminist movements on the university campuses I'm familiar with, and perhaps even in society at large. It's almost as if certain minorities within the female population, for whatever personal reasons, have decided that they will counter what they percieve as the definition of female identity, but by appropriating the methods of dominant power used by men themselves. Some of the discomfort some of my female friends and acquaintences felt with feminist activity on campus was because these other women were coming along and attempting to force them to abandon their sense of who they were and what made them women. These women were lost to the cause because the internal dynamics of the feminist insititutions, in attempting to throw off the power dynamics of patriarchy, assumed that patriarchy was only something men could deploy.

I only took one feminist theory class at university, which taught me a lot and awakened me to a lot of things that had been invisible to me beforehand. Toward the end of the class, I realized something: the male power being described as being used to dominate women was very similar to the power dynamics I saw within my own experience of male culture (that is to say, being a man amongst other men). Because at its most fundamental, it is about power. The power to define other people, and to make them believe that your proscription for their identity is the valid one, or that they have no choice in the matter.

[ 22 March 2004: Message edited by: verbatim ]


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 22 March 2004 09:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't really get involved in any organized feminist extra-curriculars when I was in university, but I did take several women's studies courses, and I didn't notice that sort of thing happening, or even hear about it. But then, I kind of lived on the "sidelines" at university, trying to juggle parenting and full-time school anyhow - not a lot of time to get involved in that sort of thing.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
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posted 23 March 2004 12:25 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OMG, verbatim, you're killing me softly with your song!!

I had that exact same experience, not in university, but in a very (supposedly) progressive, collective, left-wing, political, feminist, gay friendly, etc etc etc workplace where I worked as a teen.

It was my first exposure to what was called feminism there, and it really turned me off because it seemed to me to just be a bunch of women bullying a bunch of other women. I remember thinking to myself 'Oh, I know why they're feminists. They want someone to push around but they're too chicken to push around men'.

I also remember the totalitarianism of their moral judgements. I recall mentioning to a co-worker a novel I had recently read that explored the outer edges of female sexuality. My co-worker scowled at me and said 'Yes, I've heard of that book. I haven't read it...because I don't read PORNOGRAPHY.' I remember feeling shamed and shut down, and doggone turned off feminism. Because of my experience there it took me about 15 more years before I could bring myself to associate with the term.


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 March 2004 11:15 AM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've had similar experiences in classes and social settings with feminists who out-raadicalled me and made me feel deficient and stupid in my own feminism. At first, when I was younger and more naive, it really made me feel dumb, and I definitely felt that I should somehow measure up to the standards being set by the more radical and vehement feminists around me, even though I didn't really dig their philosophies or methods, or really much at all about them...

And then we watched a film by/about Andrea Dworkin and porn in a sociology class. We had a pretty lively discussion after the movie was over, and something in me just clicked. I didn't want to be a feminist if it meant I had to be raging angry all the time about everything. I was especially disheartened by the argument that all het sex was rape. I managed to articulate this frustration and tension in the class discussion and a lot of other women piped up to agree and express themselves as well.

So from that moment on, I started to be more critical about the kinds of feminism I encountered, and somehow, over the years I've grown fairly confident that I'm definitely a feminist, even if I don't meet anyone else's expectations in the radicalism arena.

But, that said, I think the movement needs all kinds. Reacting against Dworkin and her ilk helped me to concretize just what parts of the movement were and are important to me. It helped me to think about what it is we're (I'm) working for, and how I think the world should work. We aren't all going to care about the same things, or have the same objectives in this struggle. We can hope that our respective struggles will support and encourage each other, and that in the end it's all productive. It's too bad that there has to be so much acrimony between and within some of the "factions", and it's too bad that the women posting on Ms. feel the need to defend their position so ferociously that they've closed their minds and hearts so much (yeah, that's a bit of a generalization), but it takes all kinds.


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
weakling willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3260

posted 23 March 2004 12:59 PM      Profile for weakling willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anti-oppression movements developing their own oppressive mechanisms is not new -- the 2nd wave of the feminist movement was not unrelated to the sexism of the New Left. And who should be surprised -- Toqueville in his book on the French Revolution points out how the revolutionaries thought they were making a new world, when in fact they were constructing it with the rubble of the regime they had toppled.

I have two questions: 1) do Babblers think that anti-oppression movements have, as a whole, become more self-aware about this dynamic in the past decade. My sense is yes, but I lack the extent of experience to know if that feeling is founded.
2) Do we run the risk of avoiding painful or difficult personal introspection through the too easy alignment of challenges to our ideas/activities with the reproduction of oppressive structures. On a number of occasions in my life, I have been knocked off guard by strident feminist, queer and anti-racist claims. I have been tempted to reject them out of hand for refusing to accept beliefs or practices I considered normal and acceptable. Yet, ongoing engagement with the claims slowly led to a transformation of my beliefs. In short, is there a danger of cop-out from personal responsability on the pretext that some radical is attempting to stifle your personal autonomy?


From: Home of the Canadian Football Hall of Fame and Museum | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 23 March 2004 03:58 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It was very unfortunate what happened there Ruby Tuesday. As people here have said, those who call themselves radical feminists seem to mimic the behaviors of the society that they are rebelling against, when it suits them to do so.
From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
lastnightsdream
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5285

posted 25 March 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for lastnightsdream     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh lordy, forum drama. Say it ain't so! The best advice I can give someone is, when you start thinking about the personal arguments you're having with someone in a forum throughout your day, or if you're staying up late at night to argue with people, or find yourself in the midst of 'forum power fights'...quit the forum. Its just not worth your time or energy...
From: Alberta | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 29 March 2004 12:15 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It seems to now be me vs. pity sing/lalance/twilight cedar/bla bla bla. Also, this morning I got this email, which may or may not be related to the whole mess.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
dnuttall
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5258

posted 29 March 2004 01:08 PM      Profile for dnuttall     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[I'm just posting my observations, from firmly on the fence]

I see a close relationship between saying "I don't like Isreali aggression in the Middle East" being called anti-semitism and saying "I believe women should express themselves however they want, even if that is deemed by some to be porn" being called anti-feminism.

Most people, I suspect, do not have the what it takes to learn quickly from other peoples perspective (myself included). In email forums, responces fly fast and furiously, and people have little time to re-evaluate their own position before attacking someone else's.

[ 29 March 2004: Message edited by: dnuttall ]


From: Kanata | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 29 March 2004 01:33 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In email forums, responces fly fast and furiously, and people have little time to re-evaluate their own position before attacking someone else's.

I disagree. If you can't think between composing and hitting send, suffer the consquences. You reap what you sow, and I know that from experience. It's a choice to hit send. I chose not to several times a day.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3790

posted 29 March 2004 02:10 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The natural human compulsion to hit send after writing base, insulting garbage is about as natural as the right to posess firearms. Pretty cowardly too, as the recipient(s) are at a disadvantage.

I was fascinated at a thesis linked from another thread on communication via the internet. Point blank: the internet tends to bring out the latent asshole in huge numbers of people. As for the Ms. boards, I doubt it is latent assholery for some of those types.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Weltschmerz
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3713

posted 30 March 2004 04:33 PM      Profile for Weltschmerz     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Somebody should tell Al Gore that when he invented the Internet, he helped free the inner asshole of millions around the world.

Audra, that e-mail was surreal. And anyone who thinks you're ugly is obviously in need of serious help.

Cheers,


From: Trana | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 30 March 2004 04:35 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Aw, thanks I'll pass the compliment along to my hairdresser. I think she gets most of the cute-credit.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 30 March 2004 04:48 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With apologies, my inner editor demanded that I post:

quote:
Claim:   Vice-President Al Gore claimed that he "invented" the Internet.

Status:   False.

snopes.com


Audra, that e-mail was truly bizarre.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 30 March 2004 04:51 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Weltschmerz:
Audra, that e-mail was surreal. And anyone who thinks you're ugly is obviously in need of serious help.

Reads like someone who had Borderline Personality Disorder and was harassing a friend of mine.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Madame X
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4531

posted 30 March 2004 05:16 PM      Profile for Madame X     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bizarre emails and PMs go with the territory over there unfortunately. If you blow your nose wrong, they start arriving. The ones which accuse you of really being male or transgender are the strangest.
From: here or there or eveeeery where | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
beverly
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5064

posted 30 March 2004 05:53 PM      Profile for beverly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow! I'm happy now that I never bothered to ask the Ms. folks for a log-in. What a seriously screwed up person.

Yes, unfortauntely, people hide behind log-in names and press the send button too quickly in the wonderful world of the internet. But then, people kill their neighbour's pet goats too, so its just a crazy world sometimes.


From: In my Apartment!!!! | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 30 March 2004 06:31 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like that on the main page we now have this:

Frustrating experience on... (kuba)

MROWR!


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 30 March 2004 06:54 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Faithless deceiverTM!
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4996

posted 31 March 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Wow! I'm happy now that I never bothered to ask the Ms. folks for a log-in. What a seriously screwed up person.

Evidently you might have been safe even if you had signed up. I'm still waiting to hear word on my pending approval.

Something gives me the feeling it's never coming...


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
beverly
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5064

posted 31 March 2004 06:02 PM      Profile for beverly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Evidently you might have been safe even if you had signed up.

Oh eventually I would have let it slip that I see Ms. as a little more than slick cover girl magazine that has been co-opted by capitalism. Hey, wanna buy a t-shirt?

Plus and this might not be very fair but I'm too old to play with the university educated oppressed white females.


From: In my Apartment!!!! | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
lastnightsdream
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5285

posted 07 April 2004 12:20 AM      Profile for lastnightsdream     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kuba:


Plus and this might not be very fair but I'm too old to play with the university educated oppressed white females.


yikes. Someone called me and my friends that the other day...it really bothered me because we still struggle, just at a different level...


From: Alberta | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Twana Brawley
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5429

posted 08 April 2004 12:07 AM      Profile for Twana Brawley     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe they just don't like 'feminists' who get married and have fake tits?
From: New York | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 08 April 2004 11:05 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ha! Well good morning to me!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Weltschmerz
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3713

posted 08 April 2004 12:14 PM      Profile for Weltschmerz     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So if you get married, you're not a feminist, but a 'feminist'? Don't tell my wife!

And to think; she has a button on her jacket that says "This is what a feminist looks like". I'll have to tell her to put the quotes around the word.


From: Trana | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4996

posted 23 July 2004 05:57 PM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Seems that the boards have disappeared from the Ms. Magazine site.

A cursory snoop around there turns up nothing...

www.msmagazine.com

Anyone know what happened?


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged

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