2. Aljazeera reports that as a result of the Israeli killing of the unarmed UN observers/soldiers

quote:

---

... drivers and truck owners are losing confidence in UN assurances," Amer Daoudi, a WFP relief co-ordinator, told Aljazeera.net on Wednesday.

"The incident will definitely affect our operations and will make it extremely difficult to bring in more aid to southern Lebanon," he said about the death of the UN observers in the southern hilltop town of Khiam.

---

Aljazeera story

So, killing UN observers, including a Canadian, may help to intensify and prolong the suffering of the Lebanese people.

3. The Israeli Government claims it has "authorization" from the 15-nation Rome conference on the crisis in Lebanon to keep attacking and bombing Lebanon.

For how long?

quote:

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The Israeli justice minister, Haim Ramon, said on Thursday the conference had implicitly said Israel could continue its attacks "until Hezbollah is no longer present in southern Lebanon".

---

Given the ratio of dead civilians to dead Hezb. fighters that's a fairly despicable slaughter of civilians we're talking about.

Was that the view of other participants?

quote:

---

Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the German foreign minister, described Ramon's interpretation as a "gross misunderstanding" of the outcome of the conference.

"I would say just the opposite - yesterday in Rome it was clear that everyone present wanted to see an end to the fighting as swiftly as possible."

---

4. There is a special section on the CBC website "Canada reacts to Lebanon". By the title, it's probably skewed wildly in slavish support of Israel but there will be useful info. anyway:
Canada reacts to ...Lebanon?

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

by Michel Chossudovsky
July 26, 2006
GlobalResearch.ca

quote:

---

Is there a relationship between the bombing of Lebanon and the inauguration of the World's largest strategic pipeline, which will channel more a million barrels of oil a day to Western markets?

Virtually unnoticed, the inauguration of the Ceyhan-Tblisi-Baku (BTC) oil pipeline, which links the Caspian sea to the Eastern Mediterranean, took place on the 13th of July, at the very outset of the Israeli sponsored bombings of Lebanon.

One day before the Israeli air strikes, the main partners and shareholders of the BTC pipeline project, including several heads of State and oil company executives were in attendance at the port of Ceyhan. They were then rushed off for an inauguration reception in Istanbul, hosted by Turkey's President Ahmet Necdet Sezer in the plush surroundings of the Çýraðan Palace.

Also in attendance was British Petroleum's (BP) CEO, Lord Browne together with senior government officials from Britain, the US and Israel. BP leads the BTC pipeline consortium. Other major Western shareholders include Chevron, Conoco-Phillips, France's Total and Italy's ENI. (see Annex)

Israel's Minister of Energy and Infrastructure Binyamin Ben-Eliezer was present at the venue together with a delegation of top Israeli oil officials.

The BTC pipeline totally bypasses the territory of the Russian Federation. It transits through the former Soviet republics of Azerbaijan and Georgia, both of which have become US "protectorates", firmly integrated into a military alliance with the US and NATO. Moreover, both Azerbaijan and Georgia have longstanding military cooperation agreements with Israel. In 2005, Georgian companies received some $24 million in military contracts funded out of U.S. military assistance to Israel under the so-called "Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program".

Israel has a stake in the Azeri oil fields, from which it imports some twenty percent of its oil. The opening of the pipeline will substantially enhance Israeli oil imports from the Caspian sea basin.

But there is another dimension which directly relates to the war on Lebanon. Whereas Russia has been weakened, Israel is slated to play a major strategic role in "protecting" the Eastern Mediterranean transport and pipeline corridors out of Ceyhan.

---

quote:

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Israel decided Thursday not to expand its military offensive in Lebanon, but will call up additional troops to bolster its fight against Hezbollah.

The decision was made at a meeting of Israel's Security Cabinet.

The Cabinet turned down a request by military commanders to launch an expanded campaign.

---

Its hard to tell if this is because of itnernational pressure, or bcause of:

quote:

---

The Israel Defense Forces on Wednesday suffered its largest loss of life in its offensive against Hezbollah guerrillas. Nine Israeli soldiers were killed while fighting in southern Lebanese towns.

Eight soldiers were killed and 22 more were wounded in Bint Jbeil, near the Israeli border, while battling militiamen in what the IDF has called Hezbollah's "terror capital."

---

( love how american media ensures we know 'Bint Jbiel is the 'terror capital'. I'm pretty sure the Lebanese refer to Tel Aviv as the 'terror capital', but the USian media would never.)

Isreal is finding out what many of us have been screaming at em for a while now... A ground offensive like they are trying to persue here is sheer stupidity and you're inviting the Hizbollah to overrun Israeli military forces. Israel still holds that these are scattered terrorists and there tactics reflect such. Until they change these tactics, we're going to see many more Israeli soldiers shipped home in body bags. They are fighting well armed and well organized guerillas with a guerilla warfare mastermind at the helm.

This part is not as well covered by the media... Most interest and attention gets aimed at the bombing of Lebanon civilians and the volume of firepower coming against Lebanon. Might wanna note that the Hizbollah have continued to step up the frequency and amount of their attacks as well

quote:

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The Israeli military said that over the past 24 hours, more than 150 rockets had landed inside Israel.

---

BBC pretty much backing up what I've been sayin ^^

quote:

---

The deaths of nine Israeli soldiers in the battle for the village of Bint Jbeil plus the continued ability of Hezbollah to rain rockets onto northern Israel have prompted questions in Israel about its military strategy in Lebanon.

---

quote:

---

Instead this time Israel has sent in limited numbers of troops across the border for only a few kilometres to set up a so-called "buffer zone". They found themselves in difficulty almost immediately against well-trained and well-armed defenders. The Israelis found themselves using their hi-tech Merkava tanks as ambulances for the wounded.

At the same time, the missiles still come crashing over the border - 151 on Wednesday alone.

...

Indeed, an example of the limitations of air power came in an incident filmed by the BBC in Beirut the other day. The Israeli air force destroyed two trucks carrying water-drilling rigs, presumably thinking they were rocket launchers.

---

UN Aid Chief: Israel Has Created a "Generation of Hatred"

quote:

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United Nations humanitarian chief Jan Egeland accused Israel on Wednesday of committing "catastrophic mistakes" in its attack on Hizbullah, which have caused civilian casualties and alienated the Lebanese public.

"It will create a generation of hatred," he said in an interview held with The Jerusalem Post after he had concluded tours of northern Israel, Gaza and Lebanon. [...]

"The rockets have to stop. The terror has to stop. But please remember that for every civilian killed in Israel there are more than 10 killed in Lebanon. It has to stop on both sides." He charged that Israel had used "excessive" and "disproportionate" force in violation of international humanitarian law, and dismissed Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni's contention that proportionality is measured in relation to the threat posed by a force.

"You cannot invent new kinds of proportionalities. I've never heard that the threat is supposed to be proportional to the response," he said. "Proportionality is there in the law. The law has been made through generations of experience on the battlefield. If you kill more civilians than military personnel, one should not attack," he said. [...]

He said he was deeply struck by what he had observed first-hand during his tour of the region, particularly the "Christians, Druse, Maronites, Sunnis, who all hated Israel" when before they had hated Hizbullah...

---

quote:

---

We spoke with a group of soldiers returning from 48 hours of intense fighting, including the rescue of soldiers from a tank destroyed in the fighting.

"They are attacking us in a very organized position," one soldier said. "They know where we are coming from. They know everything. They shoot us wherever they like. It's their country."

He added they are "very well armed."

Now more Israeli soldiers are on the way, including an armored unit being transferred from Gaza to Lebanon. They have been told civilians have left the region where they will fight.

"Over here, everybody is the army," one soldier said. "Everybody is Hezbollah. There's no kids, women, nothing."

Another soldier put it plainly: "We're going to shoot anything we see."

---

US 'outrage' over Israeli claims

quote:

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The US state department has dismissed as "outrageous" a suggestion by Israel that it has been authorised by the world to continue bombing Lebanon.

"The US is sparing no efforts to bring a durable and lasting end to this conflict," said spokesman Adam Ereli.

Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon made the suggestion after powers meeting in Rome refrained from demanding an immediate ceasefire. [...]

The US has said a ceasefire is only worth it if it can be made to last. President Bush reiterated the US's rejection of a "false peace" on Thursday evening.

But the BBC's world affairs correspondent, Nick Childs, points out that Mr Bush also emphasised how troubled he was by the mounting casualties, a suggestion - perhaps - that he is increasingly conscious of the price Washington is paying for its closeness to Israel.

He says this public disavowal of the Israeli stance shows how much of an embarrassment it was for Washington as it struggles with conflicting diplomatic pressures and the frustrations of many of its allies.[...]

In Israel, there is growing concern that Hezbollah is still firing large numbers of missiles into northern Israel.

Few in Israel still speak of being able to neutralise Hezbollah, our correspondent in Jerusalem Katya Adler says.

Instead Israel speaks of trying to establish a "secure zone" empty of Hezbollah fighters north of the border with Israel.

The Israeli government's announcement that it is calling up three divisions of reservists - said to number between 15,000 to 40,000 - suggests it is preparing for the possibility of a protracted war, our correspondent says.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:
IDF soldier: "We're going to shoot anything we see."

---

quote:

---

"Over here, everybody is the army," one soldier said. "Everybody is Hezbollah. There's no kids, women, nothing."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gula:
It also affirms what I've been told by some Montreal Jews: If you're not Jewish, you simply don't count.

---

quote:

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He said he was deeply struck by what he had observed first-hand during his tour of the region, particularly the "Christians, Druse, Maronites, Sunnis, who all hated Israel" when before they had hated Hizbullah...

---

(interesting how every newsource spells Hizbollah slightly differently)

There were 3 parties involved in this conflict... Israel, Hizbollah, and the Lebanese majority. When the conflict started (I've been told this by Lebanese Sunni Arabs now living in Canada) it was Israel + Lebanese majority vs Hizbollah.

The Israeli bombardment however made little distinction between Hizbollah and the Lebanese majority. In 2000, Lebanon was a destroyed country. Since then, they made some huge jumps... New port facilities, new airport, new tourist areas, new factories, new roads... Catch where this is going? The Lebanese friend I spoke with had a certain degree of pride for everything they had rebuilt here. Israeli bombardments in 2006 have pretty much set back all the advances made since 2000.

quote:

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unionist: This is not a religious war, in case you hadn't noticed. Would you mind either explaining your comment or (much much better) retracting it?

---

Yea, I'm with unionist here. That's a useless and unhelpful comment at best, gula. On what basis did "some Montreal Jews" make these remarks? Not that you would, but someone could simply make shit up about what "some Montreal Jews" said and go from there to making further inappropriate generalizations. Know what I'm sayin' ?

It appears from initial responses that they'll now both be pushing for a UN ceasefire (lil bit of a turn around, I think the US has realized Israel would be fighting a losing battle, both on the ground and world opinion, had they continued with the current tactics).

quote:

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This is not a religious war

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[ 28 July 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noise:
(mind you I hope that swing in world opinion doesn't allow Israel to hit civilians but instead focus only on Hizbollah)

---

Is Hezbollah an armed organization, independant of the Lebanon government, which has militarized the are north of the Israel border for the purposes of attacking Israeli territory and civilians?

Since 2000 the Lebanon government and the UNIFL mission had the responsibility of disarming Hezbollah and of exercising the authority of the Lebanon military to safeguard the border from attacks on Israel.

The failure to accomplish that mission is glaring as Hezbollah entrenched itself -- in many cases fortifications in close proximity to UN outposts -- and armed itself with more heavy weaponry than possessed by the Lebanon military. They have created a psueduo-state within the territory of Lebanon. Their purpose is not to negotiate a mutual border with Israel, but to eraise the border and to end Israel as a sovereign state.

Unsurprisingly, they gained a lot of public support in Lebanon because people there were tired of losing their homes and seeing their loved ones die. When they actually succeeded in chasing Israeli troops out they became even more popular.

Now, by what insane logic do you think average Lebanese citizens will be less likely to support Hezbollah (they only people who successfully fought Israel) when Israel is bombing the crap out of them once again destroying their homes and murdering their children?

quote:

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Since 2000 the Lebanon government and the UNIFL mission had the responsibility of disarming Hezbollah and of exercising the authority of the Lebanon military to safeguard the border from attacks on Israel

---

There is so much hatred betwene the Sunni and Shi'ite camps that the Sunni proba bly don't know who they hate more, Iran or Israel (decisions, decisions)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chairm:
Is Israel a sovereign state with the right to exist and to defend itself?

Is Hezbollah an armed organization, independant of the Lebanon government, which has militarized the are north of the Israel border for the purposes of attacking Israeli territory and civilians?

Since 2000 the Lebanon government and the UNIFL mission had the responsibility of disarming Hezbollah and of exercising the authority of the Lebanon military to safeguard the border from attacks on Israel.

The failure to accomplish that mission is glaring as Hezbollah entrenched itself -- in many cases fortifications in close proximity to UN outposts -- and armed itself with more heavy weaponry than possessed by the Lebanon military. They have created a psueduo-state within the territory of Lebanon. Their purpose is not to negotiate a mutual border with Israel, but to eraise the border and to end Israel as a sovereign state.

No mutual border can long be maintained as a peaceable border as long as this illegitimate presence remains.

---

The meaning of the Second Lebanese War -
What is at stake: Zionism and Imperialism as terrorist regimes

quote:

---

Lebanon: The Zionist Vietnam

The three Israeli TV channels are actually a single propaganda outlet of the army, but even in that dunghill one can dig up interesting information. For instance, the Israeli general how boasted that Israel had driven Lebanon back 50 years — much like US Air Force chief of staff Curtis LeMay, who during the Vietnam War said: "We’re going to bomb them back into the Stone Age. And we would shove them back into the Stone Age with Air power or Naval power—not with ground forces." (General Curtis E. LeMay, Mission with LeMay: My Story, Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1965, p. 565.)

In the same vein, the Israeli military correspondents report that the Israeli forces are facing a tough guerrilla resistance hiding in bunkers and caves "like the Americans in Vietnam." Again, they don’t see any moral problem with the analogy, since, paraphrasing Terence, they all feel that nothing imperialist is alien to them. Let us recall that anything between two and three million Vietnamese and 56,000 to 60,000 Americans were killed in Vietnam during the years 1963-1975 (an additional 500,000 Vietnamese and 75,000 French had been killed in 1945-1954) and that the tonnage of bombs dropped by the US on North Vietnam exceeded that in all the theaters during World War II.

But perhaps the most grotesque character was the military analyst who explained why the fighting was so hard: "We mustn’t forget that we are facing a terrorist organization with a yearly budget of 100 million dollars"—which is quite embarrassing considering that Israel gets 30 times that sum yearly from the US, not counting the huge local military budget, estimated at $9.45 billion by the CIA in 2005.

In sum, several thousand determined guerrilla fighters, with a small military budget and a modest supply of weapons from a Third World country (Iran, and perhaps, Syria as well) are beating a monstrous military apparatus built up by imperialism for decades. It’s Vietnam all over again — terrible suffering for the Lebanese people and also, to a much lesser degree, for the Israeli civilians, but good news for the anti-imperialist fighters all over the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CWW:
Umm... wasn't Lebanon occupied by Syria until last year ?

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quote:

---

Is Hezbollah an armed organization, independant of the Lebanon government, which has militarized the are north of the Israel border for the purposes of attacking Israeli territory and civilians?

---

The Hizbollah is an active portion of the Lebanese gov't (around 12-13% of the seats). This Hizbollah is an integral part of the Lebanese defences, that doesn't communicate with each other mind you (I've link a bbc article defining how the Lebanon military atleast 2 times... If you haven't seen the article yet, I'm not going to repost. goto bbc.com). Should also note that they provide food/water, shelter, education, and most social services to southern Lebanon and not just military... In many cases the Lebanon gov't doesn't exist and it's the hizbollah that takes care of the Lebanese in the region.

quote:

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As if Hiz-h is an army, like the Israeli one, that you fight out in a field.

---

The Israeli army has been supplied with millions, if not billions, of dollars in American equipment. Of course they are going to be conventionally superior to the Hizbollah who might have a few million in Iranian arms. Do you expect them to line up and die like the 'terrorists' they are, or do you expect them to use tactics they can win with?

[ 28 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

While there I noticed this item by Ralph Nader.

"U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Friday that a multinational force should be immediately dispatched to south Lebanon to help end the conflict."

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
I've never understood the huge antipathy that USian "progressives" have for Nader. How can they not recognize what a breath of fresh air he injects into their politics?

---

I think the problem is with your premise. It's partisan Democrats who hate Nader, not "progressives".

quote:

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"We want a Lebanon free of militias and foreign interference, and a Lebanon that governs its own destiny," Bush said.

---

Do you think the idea shows that Harper has good strategic sense, or do you think it makes him look a little like a mouth piece fiddling around with concepts as opposed to hard realities.

I think you will recall, in one of these discussions we have had over the ages here, that I said the chief issue here with the mission in Afghanistan, as far as any of its stated "humanitarian" goals is the fact that at some point Canada will just give up and go home before any thing concrete is established, as the ebb and flow of international relations and "national" political agendas will dictate the policy of the day, and not what is best for the people of Afghanistan in the long run.

[ 28 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Well according to the 1994 White Paper on Defence, Canada is suppose to be able to deploy and sustain two Brigade size units overseas at one time. 5th CMBG has been sitting around in Valcartier, Quebec for the last three years. They could be deployed on this UN/NATO mission, since the other two Brigade groups have taken all the Afghanistan deployments.

I would hope this mission would be a UN mission since I do not believe NATO should be involved in Israel or Lebanon.

I would that Canadian troops would be able to handle one of the worlds most wiley and experienced guerilla outfits.

I am not sure if Mr. Harper is playing it smart or just real lucky stating that there would be no CF units for this mission.

2. Aljazeera reports that as a result of the Israeli killing of the unarmed UN observers/soldiers

"... drivers and truck owners are losing confidence in UN assurances," Amer Daoudi, a WFP relief co-ordinator, told Aljazeera.net on Wednesday.
"The incident will definitely affect our operations and will make it extremely difficult to bring in more aid to southern Lebanon," he said about the death of the UN observers in the southern hilltop town of Khiam. "

What if some of these Israeli Peace activists offered to drive those relieve trucks into Lebanon to deliver the humanitarian aid? And in return Hizzbollah would give them the two captured soldiers to take back home. That should put the IDF in some other perspective.

[ 28 July 2006: Message edited by: Bubbles ]

quote:

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Funny though: the only Israelis I see dying are the ones committing war in occupied territory.

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Perhaps you would not count the dead and injured in Israel in your calculus, but I think many of us do.

quote:

---

wasn't Lebanon occupied by Syria until last year?

---

Yes, of course, but the the UNIFIL mission, and the agreement reached for Israel's withdrawal, continued to include the goal of extending the authority of the Lebanon government throughout the border area. I think we all can probably agree that only superficial efforts due to the policies of the Syrian occuppiers.

The recent withdrawal of Syria is consistent with the UNIFIL goal of extending the authority of the Lebanon government over its border with Israel. But, of course, Syria remains an obstacle as it has opposed disarming the Hezbollah militia.

quote:

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The civilian kill ratio says it all.

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Could you elaborate on how that ratio is determined? And why you think it says it all?

quote:

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The Hizbollah is an active portion of the Lebanese gov't

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I saw your links. That's not good enough.

Does the Hezbollah act with the authority of the Lebanon government? If they do, then, the Lebanon government is complicit with the current hostilities. The mask is removed. But it is more complicated than that precisely because the Hezbollah are an armed political faction.

The choice of independant political parties within a state is either ballots or bullets. Within a state the government must have a monopoly on military might. Civil war is always lurking when political factions arm themselves.

The primary goal of the Hezbollah is not the defence of Lebanon's territory, but the eraisure of the border with Israel and the end of Israel.

If the recent negotations can be taken at face value, it appears that the political side of the Hezbollah may agree, at least in principle, to disarming itself. If that means the military arm of the Hezbollah is rolled into the Lebanonese military and is brought under the integrated and legtimate control of the Lebanon government, all the better. Any holdouts will have to be disarmed forcedly by the Lebanonese military within its own borders.

If that is deemed impossible due to the strength of the armed militia that has become near-indistinguishable from the political faction, some other harsher solution will inevitablly be pursued.

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:

I've never understood the huge antipathy that USian "progressives" have for Nader. How can they not recognize what a breath of fresh air he injects into their politics?

---

He steals votes from the NDP Democratic Party. That's the cardinal sin. Actual politics doesn't matter. ETA: Whoops, I see Michelle stole my point before I even made it! Copyright violation!!

[ 28 July 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:

Yes, of course, but the the UNIFIL mission, and the agreement reached for Israel's withdrawal, continued to include the goal of extending the authority of the Lebanon government throughout the border area. I think we all can probably agree that only superficial efforts due to the policies of the Syrian occuppiers.
[/QB]

---

Fantasy. The Israeli withdrawal had absolutely no such conditions on it, and no UN mandate to participate any such thing.

The disbanding of the militias was a condition inserted in resolution 1559, long after the Israeli withdrawal.

quote:

---

Within the rubble,/
Child's face, doll's face, unblinking/
Blushing in red dawn.

---

"Unblinking", by Russell Ragsdale
(for Ash and his birthplace)

"Unblinking"

________________________

I see that the Lebanese President Emile Lahoud has expressed complete backing of Hezbollah and noted that "Hezbollah has the support of 86 per cent of the country in its battle with Israel".

Lebanese support Hezbollah

[ 29 July 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

An Israeli air strike killed at least 35 Lebanese civilians, including 21 children, in the southern village of Qana on Sunday, in the bloodiest single attack during Israel's 19-day-old war on Hizbollah.

Several houses collapsed and a three-storey building where about 100 civilians were sheltering was destroyed, witnesses and rescue workers said. Distraught people screamed in grief and anger amid the rubble of wrecked buildings.

Israel's military said it had warned residents of Qana to leave and said Hizbollah bore responsibility for using it to fire rockets at the Jewish state.

In April 1996, Israeli shelling of a base of U.N. peacekeepers in Qana killed more than 100 civilians sheltering there during Israel's "Grapes of Wrath" bombing campaign.

---

quote:

---

LEBANON told US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today it could not meet with her before a ceasefire ends a 19-day-old Israeli offensive.
Lebanese officials said Dr Rice, who was due in Beirut later in the day, was told of the Lebanese position after an Israeli air strike killed at least 51 civilians in southern Lebanon.
They said Dr Rice's visit to Beirut had been cancelled.

Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denounced the deadly raids as a "war crime", vowing there was no place for talks until Israel ceased its attacks.

---

quote:

---

The devastation we are sowing in Lebanon doesn't touch anyone here and most of it is not even shown to Israelis. Those who want to know what Tyre looks like now have to turn to foreign channels - the BBC reporter brings chilling images from there, the likes of which won't be seen here. How can one not be shocked by the suffering of the other, at our hands, even when our north suffers? The death we are sowing at the same time, right now in Gaza, with close to 120 dead since the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, 27 last Wednesday alone, touches us even less. The hospitals in Gaza are full of burned children, but who cares? The darkness of the war in the north covers them, too.

. . . .

Lebanon, which has never fought Israel and has 40 daily newspapers, 42 colleges and universities and hundreds of different banks, is being destroyed by our planes and cannon and nobody is taking into account the amount of hatred we are sowing. In international public opinion, Israel has been turned into a monster, and that still hasn't been calculated into the debit column of this war. Israel is badly stained, a moral stain that can't be easily and quickly removed. And only we don't want to see it.

. . . .

Long before this war is decided, it can already be stated that its spiraling cost will include the moral blackout that is surrounding and covering us all, threatening our existence and image no less than Hezbollah's Katyushas.

---

quote:

---

Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denounced the deadly raids as a "war crime", vowing there was no place for talks until Israel ceased its attacks.

---

The same CBC report misrepresents the sequence of events surrounding the cancellation of the visit of U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza "Keep bombing" Rice to Lebanon. Unless one reads the entire article, which many do not, it would appear as if Rice cancelled the visit herself. Not so. The Lebanese PM, Fuad Saniora , cancelled it.

quote:

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"There is no place at this sad moment for any discussions other than an immediate and unconditional ceasefire as well as international investigation of the Israeli massacres in Lebanon now,"

---

Even while reporting such atrocities the MSM is able to mislead the public in small, significant ways.

Qana 1996[/URL]

This is very sad. It doesn’t even matter if there was a Hezbollah rocket launcher parked beside the building or huge cash of weapons underneath. It may rationalize it though. Still it is very bad. This battle will end very soon (Israel will now have to bow to world pressure) I hope that at least we can take some comfort in that. The unfortunate thing is that the war in the Middle East won’t be over even just the small one between the Hezbollah and Israel. Some UN observers will come in the Hezbollah will recover re arm and most importantly recruit 10 times more than it had and in 5-10 years from now this will all happen again.

This is a victory for Hezbollah an absolute victory. Israel fell into their trap.

Sad

[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

quote:

---

Speculation about motives and conflicting factors should not blind us to the tragedy that is unfolding. Lebanon is being destroyed, Israel's Gaza prison is suffering still more savage blows, and on the West Bank, mostly out of sight, the United States and Israel are consummating their project of the murder of a nation, a grim and rare event in history.

These actions, and the Western response, illustrate all too clearly the amalgam of savage cruelty, self-righteousness, and injured innocence that is so deeply rooted in the imperial mentality as to be beyond awareness. One can easily understand why Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization, is alleged to have said that he thought it might be a good idea.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The Israeli slaughter of civilians in Qana, Lebanon is up to "about 50 people, many of them women and children".

---

37 children at the latest count.

quote:

---

The same CBC report misrepresents the sequence of events surrounding the cancellation of the visit of U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza "Keep bombing" Rice to Lebanon. Unless one reads the entire article, which many do not, it would appear as if Rice cancelled the visit herself. Not so. The Lebanese PM, Fuad Saniora , cancelled it.

Even while reporting such atrocities the MSM is able to mislead the public in small, significant ways.

---

quote:

---

Even while reporting such atrocities the MSM is able to mislead the public in small, significant ways

---

True. They spun the cancellation by inferring the decision was Rice's and added Siniora's request as an afterthought.

Amal Saad Ghorayeb enlightens:

quote:

---

Unlike you, I get to see different media, both American/Western and Arab. Plus, I have the advantage of living here. You only see one side of the story. I see both. If Hizb. were dumb enough to hide amongst civilians, don't you think that it would run the risk of being snitched on by potential collaborators? Do you think that Israel would hesitate to attack those target if Hizb. was using them.

---

"Israel said it regretted the incident - but added that civilians had been warned to flee the village."

quote:

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Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon “said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.
He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there could be considered a Hezbollah supporter.

“All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah,” Mr Ramon said.

****

Ramon made these comments on Israeli Army radio. He was apparently not asked about the IDF’s practice of blowing up the cars full of civilians fleeing south Lebanon.

---

quote:

---

Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon “said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops moved in.

---

Considering that for the first time,neither the Israeli PM or defense minister has military command experience,I wonder how much the generals are pushing them around.

Almost half the dead are children, but The Devil made him do it.

[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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sgm quoting Chomsky: These actions, and the Western response, illustrate all too clearly the amalgam of savage cruelty, self-righteousness, and injured innocence that is so deeply rooted in the imperial mentality as to be beyond awareness.

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Chomsky missed the cult of victimhood as part of the amalgam. Or perhaps he used the phrase "injured innocence" to convey a similar idea.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jester:

Considering that for the first time,neither the Israeli PM or defense minister has military command experience,I wonder how much the generals are pushing them around.

The politicians may give the military a freer rein in order to not appear weak.

---

Sailent.

In fact the Israeli high command threatened to stage a coupe in 1967, if the civilian leadership failed to pursue military action against Egypt, according to Ariel Sharon.

That is how scared they were of annihilation by the Arab hordes.

From the horses mouth:

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Ariel Sharon was a Major General in the Israeli military during the war. On May 28th, he advised the Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin that the cabinet could be detained and a coup declared. Sharon and others felt that the civilian government was unable to reach a necessary decision. The military would make the decision the government would not, and begin war in the government's best interests.

He explains: "We often asked whether in the State of Israel there could arise a situation in which the army takes control.

"And I always said it was impossible, that this couldn't happen in the State of Israel.

"And then, after the meeting on May 28, I said to the chief of staff and others who were present, that there had arisen a situation in which this could happen, and that it would also be well accepted - that is to say, to seize control not in the framework of wanting to govern, but in the framework of making a decision, the fundamental decision, and that [the] army can make it without the government.

"I don't remember if he agreed or not, but I think he also viewed it in this way." [1]

---

Sharon considered temporary Israeli coup in 1967

[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Likewise we can condemn Israel for its war crimes, but that has no real bearing on the underlying justice or injustice of their cause. The undelying root cause can only be understood and resolved by applying political principles, not by asserting vague moralists values to the manner of conflict.

The "ends" themsleves have to be evaluated as well as the "means."

The sailent issue of justice and injustice is Israeli occupation of Arab lands. And that is it.

Israel must completely withdraw from the territories captured in the 1967 war, including the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Cheba Farms. Simply talking about Israeli "overreaction" and "war crimes" implies that some kind of reaction was "just" in the first place, when the reality is that it is incumbent upon Israel to give up territories won by conquest.

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The war crimes issue is more or less moot.

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If this was a conflict between Israel and a secular Arab country or militia then at least we could make some assumptions that both sides might act rationally. But anytime you are fighting crazed religious fanatics, its hard to make that assumption because you are dealing with people who are utterly convinced that if they die in battle they will go to heaven and be "martyrs". (and get the 72 dark eyed virgins and rivers flowing with yogurt etc... - though some acadmics have pointed out that the 72 dark eyed virgins is actually a mistranslation and that in fact all they get is 72 raisins!)

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
But anytime you are fighting crazed religious fanatics, its hard to make that assumption because you are dealing with people who are utterly convinced that if they die in battle they will go to heaven and be "martyrs".

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Originally posted by Sven:

And, I don't think Israel is looking to "wipe X country off the face of the earth" (ala President of Iran's wish for Israel).

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Yes and don't forget bringing up North Korean communists nukes when colouring in your join the dots political cartoon.

Israeli politicians have several times expressed openly the possibility of nuking Iran and Syria, and this is not new.

[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

More images of "terrorists" killed by American bombs, dropped by Israelis, and rationalized by pro-Israeli racists everywhere:

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/07/30/18292861.php

[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[QB]

More images of "terrorists" killed by American bombs, dropped by Israelis, and rationalized by pro-Israeli racists everywhere...

[QB]

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No, you got it all wrong man. The blame, if such applicable here, has to go on Hiz-h terrorists (the cowards without race) and all who supports them.

But the Israelis made the final decision to kill children.

Mark Levine explains the situation and predicts the outcome; a strengthened Hezbollah.Link here.

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...To all my fellow bloggers out there, and to readers as well, who believe that Irsael is waging a purely defensive campaign that is trying to keep civilian casualties, here are the words of the Justice Minister of Isreal, Haim Ramon, former leader of the Labor Party (the party behind the Peace Process): ""We must reduce to dust the villages of the south [...] I don’t understand why there is still electricity there.” This was quoted in Haaretz on July 28. If this is what the Justice Minister is saying publicly, we can only imagine what the reality on the ground is in Lebanon...

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[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Contrarian ]

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The blame, if such applicable here, has to go on Hiz-h terrorists (the cowards without race) and all who supports them.

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Wow. So Israel kills 50 people, half of them kids, but someone else is responsible. Next, I am sure, we shall here: "they made me do it" which is the close cousin of "she asked for it".

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Stockholm, in other comments you indicate little respect for religion, but then you apologize profusely for a state founded on racism and religion

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I hate religion, but I also recognize that despite my total atheism, the next time there is a Holocaust directed against Jews, I would be gassed just as quickly as Hassidic religious freaks. Therefore, I consider the existence of Israel to be an insurance policy. It is inevitable given the past 2000 years of world history that there will be future massacres, pogroms and Holocausts directed agiqanst Jews and at least as long as Israel exists, there is somwhere for Jewish refugees to flee to. This was not the case in 1939 when ships laden with refugees from Hitler got sent back to Germany and cerain death.

When the Jews in Ethiopia were facing mass murder by the totalitarian Ethiopian regime in the 1980s, Israel airlifetd them all to safety.

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When is the last time you heard of Jewish "suicide bombers" killing themselves in order to make sure that as many civilians die as possible as they attack "soft" targets that have no military value at all???

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Why would the Israelis need "suicide bombers" when they have an air force that can level multi-story buildings and kill dozens of people in a single air strike?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I suspect that if Hezbollah had guidance sustems on their rockets they would go out of their way to kill as many civilians as possible...and i would be very surprised if they dropped leaflets warning people to get out of the way either.

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Wow that is so racist I can't believe that. Do you honestly believe that they target "JUST" civilians. I guess the military is a bonus for Hezbollah. Good crap I would send a note to the mods but it wouldn't do much because you have been here so long you would get at most a 24 no post ban. This is truely racist. That the Isreali(Note I didn't say JEWISH) army is killing disproportionately doesn't matter because they are in your mind "civilizied" even if they are doing things barbarians would deem truely grotesque.

How come people can not understand that when you have no weapons at your disposal and are fighting a technolically superior force that you would resort to suicide bombs. Yet the same people are pissed once they start using actual weapons like missles.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Why don't they just fold all their military operations and just concentrate on providing social services. You know swords into ploughshares!!

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
...and we could just as easily show pictures of dead Israelis killed by Hezbollah missiles landing in the middle of Haifa, but i guess "Cuball" thinks that only Arab lives have any value, Isreali lives are worthless. If that isn't racism what is???

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This is what I wrote:

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Sure we can condemn the acts of some parties within the Arab resistance to Israel's history of agression and occupation, and while we feel the ends do not justify the means, the means do not deligitimize the ends," but only indict the actions of certain individuals and groups of individuals.

Likewise we can condemn Israel for its war crimes, but that has no real bearing on the underlying justice or injustice of their cause. The undelying root cause can only be understood and resolved by applying political principles, not by asserting vague moralists values to the manner of conflict.

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The rest is above. Why not try reading for content.

Your inability to even read an comprehend what is being writen here, indicates to me why it is that you have such an outlandishly distorted view of what is going on over there. The reason you think everyone here only attacks Israel, is obviously because you only read the parts that do, and igonre whatever else is saying.

Very weird.

And this is perhaps the turth of your distorted and one sieded view: It would not matter how many Palestinians opposed suicdie bombings, you wouldn't even see or read what they said. It would just be a black spot in front of your eyes.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by thorin_bane:
Wow that is so racist I can't believe that. Do you honestly believe that they target "JUST" civilians. I guess the military is a bonus for Hezbollah. Good crap I would send a note to the mods but it wouldn't do much because you have been here so long you would get at most a 24 no post ban. This is truely racist.

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I don't see anything racist about what he wrote. He's speculating that Hezbollah would kill even more civilians if they had better weapons. People speculate all the time about whether Israel meant to kill civilians or not. It's pretty clear that neither side in this conflict really gives a damn whether or not they kill civilians.

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Originally posted by Jingles:
the Israeli wehrmacht and einzatzgruppen.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
So you are saying that there is something especially brutal and inhuman about Arabs, in that they will automatically use the bomb on Israel should they get the technology, as opposed to Jews you won't because they are civilized. Israel has the bomb, and they have not used it, but your presumptions is that Arab factions will.

Racism.

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Since when does Hezbollah represent Arabs in general?

And by your specific definition, aren't those who assume Israel is targeting or don't give a damn about civilians saying something "brutal and inhuman" about Jews?

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]

Here asserts that Hamas is representatvie of all Arab people, and then goes on to make a racialist analysis which makes the point to the effect that that Israeli-Jews are more moral and less agressive than their Arab counterparts:

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Because the there is only one Israel in a sea of 200 million Arabs. The goal of Hamas terrorists is to eliminate Israel entirely. If you can show me evidence that there are terrorist groups in Israel...

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Stockholm

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Isreal probably doesn't rank number 1 on all their lists as you would conclude.

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Yeah right??? When is the last time Israel Invaded Iran or Malaysia? Yet you still see there anti Israel rallies not just condemning its military offensive but condemning its existence and condemning Jews. Things haven’t changed much in the last 2000 years. They Jews have been scapegoats for the world’s problem for the better part of recorded history. The only difference is that now there is a Jewish state so it becomes the world’s punching bag. Not only that since the Jewish people have suffered unbelievably they are expected to know better and are held to not just a hire standard but an unbelievably high standard. No there not angles and sometimes the Israeli and Jews do horrible things but it must be put in to proportion.

Second although I believe most Arabs or Muslim are not racist, and once again Jews and Christians aren’t perfect either, there is still disproportionately, relatively more racist and intolerant Muslims and Arabs than there are Christians and Jews. Now there are a few Muslims and Arabs that speak up against it. This is a problem in creating change since the change has to come from with in. Everytime a progressive Muslim Like Irshad Muslim, Wafa Sultan and Salman Rushsdie come along they are automatically condemned, called heretics that don’t know what they are talking about, a fatwa is called and a bounty placed on their heads so its no wonder there is more intolerance in that society than others.

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And yes if Hizbollah could they would kill way more civilians,

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Really. Pure speculation based on the assumption that all Muslims are bloodthirsty savages whose inborn violent tendencies cannot be curbed other than by the civilizing influence of 1000lb GBUs.

Good point about the Seminole, Cueball. Astonishingly, we're hearing pretty much the exact same rhetoric from the pro-genocide zionists and their apologists today as was heard during the Conquest of NA and the western expansion. Then, the Indians were savages who attacking innocent white pioneers for no reason. That they had no respect for (Christian, in that case) life, that they must be disarmed, removed, or exterminated (preferrably all three in that order). That superior firepower of the whites meant that God blessed them to have dominion over the "empty" lands. We can read about how the Indians just wouldn't stop attacking the peaceful settlers, so the settlers had to wipe out the savage's villages for security.

12 hours later, Israeli air strikes resume.

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CBC: The air strikes took place near the village of Taibe and were intended to protect ground forces in the area, the Israeli army said, adding that there were no specific targets.

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Second although I believe most Arabs or Muslim are not racist

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Originally posted by Jingles:
Really. Pure speculation based on the assumption that all Muslims are bloodthirsty savages whose inborn violent tendencies cannot be curbed other than by the civilizing influence of 1000lb GBUs.

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I don't have problems with anyone honestly defending the Israeli opinions, however everytime someone questions the Israeli attacks Stolkholm has been first and foremosts to slander, lie, and accuse that person of being a Terrorist supporter.

I'd love to have a reasonable discussion but it's impossible to have one when the current attitude of some people is that it's "US or THEM".

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Whoever screams and accuses others of racism-usually just promotes it.

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What bloody nonsense. So for you, any charge of racism is baseless, unless you make it.

What exactly is racist about "pro-genocide zionists"? There are actually many such people. They are not identified by their race, or religion, or any such visible ethnic markers. They are identified by the fact that they strongly support an openly genocidal attack on a civilian population in the cause of zionism. Olmert is one, as is Condi, and Steven Harper, Pat Robertson, and Bill O'Reilly, and the editorial board of that basiton of treasonous commie anti-americanism, the New York Times. Note that they are of many ethnic backrounds and differing religions.

Your slavish devotion to the apartheid state of Israel has apparently clouded your understanding of racism, if indeed you had any to begin with.

And Free-duh, I'll quote your full statement, because it is actually worse than I originally credited:

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And yes if Hizbollah could they would kill way more civilians, you can accuse Israel of being careless and maybe even indifferent, but they don’t intended to kill civilians.

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I don't have problems with anyone honestly defending the Israeli opinions, however everytime someone questions the Israeli attacks Stolkholm has been first and foremosts to slander, lie, and accuse that person of being a Terrorist supporter.

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No, I am just pointing out that Israel's actions aren't coming out of a vacuum, they are in response to a long, long history of being the target of Hezbollah terrorist attacks. Hezbollah btw is not even a Palestinian group, they are an Iranian backed Shi-ite Lebanese militia. Given that Israel has not occupied one square inch of Lebanese territory since 2000, I see no reason for them to even exist.

For the record, I believe that Israel has a right to exist as an independent nation, within secure border. i recognize Lebanon's right to exist as an independant democratic country free or Syrian, Iranian of Israeli domination. I recognize the right of Palestinians to have a viable state as well and i condemn acts of violence committed by both sides.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

We can go on for ever finger pointed about "who started it". I'm simply pointing out that there are two sides to this story.

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Thank you for confirming what I was saying.

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Lebanon, you still try to perpetuate the big lie that Israel doesn't intend to kill civilians.

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The lie is that Hezbollah is defending the Lebanese population and Iran and Syria are stabilizing forces.

How many possible warnings can they possibly give? Dumping flyers all over the area, intercepting Lebanese radio transmissions, all at the expense at giving their enemies an upper hand. There is plenty of documented video evidence of Hezbollah’s tactics hiding rocket launchers behind civilian. It is clear that if the Israelis would have known for example in the attack on Qana that the civilian death toll were to be that high it would have been aborted. Bottom line is the only thing in that particular scenario that they could have done to avoid those civilian casualties is to improve military intelligence which would further increase the risk to Israeli soldiers which are already taking high risks to protect their own civilian population as well as the Lebanese that is why more Israeli soldier get killed than Israeli civilians. They do not use the civilian population as tools for their cause unlike the Hezbollah. The Deaths of the civilians in Qana is a victory for the Hezbollah and a disaster for the Israel.

Hezbollah doesn’t care doesn’t anybody get it, why does nobody see that it is Hezbollah and the Iranian government that are bring us closer and closer to the gates of hell. How can anybody claim to defend freedom well they rationalize tyrants and tactics like these.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

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For the record, I believe that Israel has a right to exist as an independent nation, within secure border. i recognize Lebanon's right to exist as an independant democratic country free or Syrian, Iranian of Israeli domination. I recognize the right of Palestinians to have a viable state as well and i condemn acts of violence committed by both sides.

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Whoever screams and accuses others of racism-usually just promotes it. Why is it that some people keep on insisting that there is racism towards Muslims or Arabs in general?

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Perhaps we are taking your overwhelming ignorance on the islamic world as racism. Wait a tic.. Is making overwhelming generalizations based on ignorance not the defination of racism?

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No, I am just pointing out that Israel's actions aren't coming out of a vacuum, they are in response to a long, long history of being the target of Hezbollah terrorist attacks. Hezbollah btw is not even a Palestinian group, they are an Iranian backed Shi-ite Lebanese militia. Given that Israel has not occupied one square inch of Lebanese territory since 2000, I see no reason for them to even exist

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Errr, Stockholm, the Hizbollah formed from the remanents of the PLO. So they've definately got links. They're attacks are very often in retaliation for what happens to the Palestinian peoples (the event that intiated this war, the 2 kidnapped soldiers, were kidnapped in response to the bombardment of gaza). They obviously have links to Palestine.

Hizbollah is around 400k strong with supporters, they DO NOT rely on terror suicide bombers like you consisntantly insist (Not attacking here, I'm tryign to correct a misconception). The Hizbollah are NOT TERRORISTS to the degree we have labled them, they are a much more mature and well organized group now. The tactics currently being employed by the Israeli are using the assumption that we are working with an AQ like terrorist organization, when in reality the Hizbollah or more of a populist movement.

For example, the majority of Hizbollahs support comes from immidiately after the 2000 withdraw, Hizbollah went around to every community that nobody else could get to (Israel destroyed the roads and infrastructure for the Lebanese central gov't to be able to access this land) and offered to rebuild. The Hizbollah put up schools and provided the gov't infrastructure that a destroyed Lebanon cannot supply.

Now we watch Israel economically ravage what the Lebanese people have rebuilt from 2000. We've watched them destroy ever gas station and every road in southern Lebanon. When these efforts are over, the next Hizbollah group to move in and supply these services (which the devastated Lebanon cannot provide, as Israeli bombardment ensures)... They are 400k strong at minimum, a new group with arise detesting Israel for the destruction it's caused once again. And this is assuming Hizbollah is removed, which I think is a horrid assupmtion, Hizbollah won't only survive Israels attacks, but they'll become stronger from them.

Despite all this, the entire western world is assured that these are nothing but a small group of terrorists and nothing more... Almost like they are an extention of AQ or Taliban.

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The Hizbollah put up schools and provided the gov't infrastructure that a destroyed Lebanon cannot supply.

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How many possible warnings can they possibly give?

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Free-Duh... Just FYI, the chronological events included bombing every last road out of Southern Lebanon, destroying every last gas station, and destroying civilian cars... Then flyering them to tell them to get out. Most are forced to huddle in their basements till they are out of food.

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There is plenty of documented video evidence of Hezbollah’s tactics hiding rocket launchers behind civilian.

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You continue to insist that the Hizbollah are a tiny terrorist cell operating in Lebanon here, when they are much more. Go look at Lebanese parlimentary setups and tell me the number of votes Hizbollah received. Israel is at war with 15% of lebanon, and is taking it out on 100% of Lebanon. Some of these civilians that the 'terrorists' are hiding behind are those peoples mothers, fathers, sisters, and brothers. When you attack a people like Israel has here, you are attacking more than just their soldiers, you are attacking their civilians as well. Israel stating it isn't targetting civilians is complete and utter nonsense, simply because many civilians are infact Hizbollah... As many as 400 000 of them too. Israel is not at war with a terrorist organization, they are at war with atleast 10% of the population of lebanon (and Israel is targetting 100% of lebanon)

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...and you fogot to mention that while they were at it, they also placed 10,000 missiles all aimed at Israel.

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The same way Israel has 6-10 billion yearly in American arsenal aimed at Lebanon.

Stockholm, I'm not trying to defend Hizbollah's actions, beyond trying to understand them. All I see is the same stupid pattern repeating, and we'll see this again in 5 years, cept the Iranians will be able to give nukes to the Hizbollah instead. Israel's tactics are repeating the same stupid pattern... And part of it is rooted in the same bits that you are assuming.

Hizbollah built these schools... If we have say 50 students going to said school, that is 100 sets of parents and an untold number of siblings that have had direct positive impact by Hizbollah while it was the Israeli's that destroyed it in the first place. Thats what, atleast 500 suporters (civilian supporters) for Hizbollah to draw from... We are dealing with a population here, not a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION like is continually insisted upon. This is not afghanistan where the majority of the fighters are coming from Pakistan borders currently. This is a people instead. Can you see the difference? Can you see why tactics aimed at terrorist organizations will not succeed vs a population?

When the Israeli are done here and even if they are capable of destroying and dismantling Hizbollah, the 400k people and supporters still remain in an area ravaged by war where the only support they'll receive is from the next Hizbollah.

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...and you fogot to mention that while they were at it, they also placed 10,000 missiles all aimed at Israel.

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Could you explain to me how you expected a 20 year occupation to end and have the occupied side go 'Hey theres absolutely no need to defend ourselves whatsoever!!!'... All the while Israel gets a fresh batch of bombs and missiles actively aimed at Lebanon? You've got a horrible double standard here.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

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Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz told parliament: It's forbidden to agree to an immediate cease-fire ...

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That's what he said. Peace is forbidden.

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Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz said Monday his country would not agree to an immediate ceasefire and, in fact, planned to expand its military operations in Lebanon. ...

"Israel will expand and strengthen its activities against the Hezbollah."

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Could you explain to me how you expected a 20 year occupation to end and have the occupied side go 'Hey theres absolutely no need to defend ourselves whatsoever!!!'... All the while Israel gets a fresh batch of bombs and missiles actively aimed at Lebanon? You've got a horrible double standard here.

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You continue to insist that the Hizbollah are a tiny terrorist cell operating in Lebanon here

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I never claimed that.

Secondly I sympathies with the lebanses, when a lebanses civilian has a child that is sick and the nearest hospital is Hezbollah run operation, yes I would go too, but that wouldn’t stop me from criticizing them if I know full well that they are dragging my country further into war. Unless of course they were pointing a gun at my head.

Its as bad as exploiting Africa and the mid-east for oil, which I think the Chinese governments attitudes regarding Sudan and Nigeria are far worse than American policy. bottom line is I have had enough of people using other people as mere commodities, that is exactly what Hezbollah is doing with the people of Lebanon, if the Hezbollah cared about the people of Lebanon it would focus more on schools and hospitals than provoking Israel.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

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Stockholm: I know of no one in Israel who wants to conquer and colonize Lebanon.

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CBC: Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz said Monday his country would not agree to an immediate ceasefire and, in fact, planned to expand its military operations in Lebanon. ...

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Originally posted by Noise:

Could you explain to me how you expected a 20 year occupation to end and have the occupied side go 'Hey theres absolutely no need to defend ourselves whatsoever!!!'... All the while Israel gets a fresh batch of bombs and missiles actively aimed at Lebanon? You've got a horrible double standard here.

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Isn't defending Lebanon the job of the Lebanese government?

I don't believe Hezbollah has any legitimate reason to exist. Guerilla warfare against the Israeli occupation was one thing, but launching unprovoked extra-territorial attacks years after that occupation has ended?

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Originally posted by Jingles:

What bloody nonsense. So for you, any charge of racism is baseless, unless you make it.

What exactly is racist about "pro-genocide zionists"?

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A: Genocide: The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
This act is on top of that one-way, which is not the case with Israel or as you’d generalize them (whoever they are) as Zionists. Rwanda case was one of genocide. Nazi extermination of Jews and Gypsies was another one. But not in Palestine, that has, and still have, its own functioning government and flourishing military groups that would commit crimes against the state of Israel. That is not to justify all of Israeli actions in the region, but to state that there never was genocide involved.

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But not in Palestine, that has, and still have, its own functioning government and flourishing military groups that would commit crimes against the state of Israel.

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You mean Hamas, the democratically elected government of Gaza, whose members were kidnapped by the terrorist state of Israel? Whose infrastructure has been destroyed by the IOF? The same state of Israel that is bombing Gaza which it has illegally occupied for four decades? Fuck you.

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I don't believe Hezbollah has any legitimate reason to exist. Guerilla warfare against the Israeli occupation was one thing, but launching unprovoked extra-territorial attacks years after that occupation has ended?

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Hizb'allah has as much legitmate reason to exist as Israel. It is a political movement (with a paramilitary wing) that finds popular support among the vast majority of south Lebanon, and now thanks to the murderous Israelis, finds huge support throughout the world for their resistance to Israeli aggression. Unprovoked? Puh-lease. Israel has committed non-stop incursions into Lebanon, including kidnapping Lebanese, bombing raids, and general terror. They weren't just minding their own business.

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we'll see this again in 5 years, cept the Iranians will be able to give nukes to the Hizbollah instead.

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More bullshit. Do you really think Iran is that stupid and suicidal? Would the US, the world's number one sponser of terror, give a nuclear weapon to their proxies? No, because even they aren't that stupid. They know, as does Iran, that you don't just give away those things to groups whose loyalties aren't exactly ironclad. If Pakistan hasn't supplied one to their proxies, why would you think Iran would? Especially after the expense, technical, and political problems associated with building the damn things. The whole idea of Iran building a bomb just to destroy Israel is on par with Iraq's germ-spraying unmanned aircraft: a scare tactic designed to frighten the naive.

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If society, for example, calls you an idiot or a looser and you believe that you are not, then it’s up to you to prove otherwise especially since you have all, or most, means for that at your disposal.

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Originally posted by Jingles:

No, dipshit...Fuck you.

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Hizb'allah has as much legitmate reason to exist as Israel. It is a political movement (with a paramilitary wing) that finds popular support among the vast majority of south Lebanon, and now thanks to the murderous Israelis, finds huge support throughout the world for their resistance to Israeli aggression. Unprovoked? Puh-lease. Israel has committed non-stop incursions into Lebanon, including kidnapping Lebanese, bombing raids, and general terror. They weren't just minding their own business.

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Israel is a country. Hezbollah is not. A political movement does not have a right to a paramilitary wing. If it does, a legitimate national government should disarm it. If the government doesn't disarm it, and it launches extra-territorial attacks, then the victim of those attacks has the right to disarm it.

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Unprovoked? Puh-lease. Israel has committed non-stop incursions into Lebanon, including kidnapping Lebanese, bombing raids, and general terror. They weren't just minding their own business.

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Puh-lease. Hezbollah wasn’t quite all these years they continued to fire rockets. Further more what’s the first they did when Israel evacuated Lebanon in 2000? Lets see Kidnap there soldiers i think.

In the terms Israel is making this out to be, a war on a terror group... This is semi-acceptable as far as casualties go (terror group using human shields). But if you ignore the israel 'these are terrorists!' proganda and see it what it's for... It's Israel at war with a people and killing those people (civilian or otherwise) is perfectly acceptable, as they are at war with PEOPLE not TERRORIST GROUP 1A.

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Isn't defending Lebanon the job of the Lebanese government?

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You mean the gov't left ravaged by occupation with absolutely no logistics into southern lebanon, nor the resources to do such, should be the ones defending lebanon? Give me a break... Israel effectively left a badly beaten and broken Lebanese gov't and a quickly growing Hizbollah force. And the few things the Lebanese gov't has built back up since the 200 occupation (Tyre and Beirut ports, Beirut international airport, and roads/infrastructure connecting it all) was the first on the Israeli strike list.

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Originally posted by Noise:
You mean the gov't left ravaged by occupation with absolutely no logistics into southern lebanon, nor the resources to do such, should be the ones defending lebanon? Give me a break... Israel effectively left a badly beaten and broken Lebanese gov't and a quickly growing Hizbollah force. And the few things the Lebanese gov't has built back up since the 200 occupation (Tyre and Beirut ports, Beirut international airport, and roads/infrastructure connecting it all) was the first on the Israeli strike list.

2006 is a repeat of 2000... And 2012 will be a repeat of that.

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That completely dodges the point. I said it is not Hezbollah's job to defend the Lebanese people, it is the responsibility of the government, so Hezbollah cannot use that as an excuse to arm itself.

Lebanon should have disarmed Hezbollah long ago. And if it's not capable of doing so on its own, it should have asked for international help. It would have been forthcoming.

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these human shields are relatives or supporters of Hizbollah

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Are you trying to tell me this was the democratic choice of the Lebanese people to go to war with Israel? Well I don’t but that I think I give the Lebanese more credit than you do. I don’t think they are that stupid. Also to my knowledge there was no discussion or vote in the Lebanese cabinet. And Israel was not posing a clear and present danger at the time but I guess that arguable so continue that if you like and I will respond when necessary.

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See what I’m talking about... when there is nothing else intelligent to say, some would either put forward meaningless racist accusations or something like fuck you closure. That just proves my point, thanks.

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Jingles:

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you have demonstrated your clear lack of understanding of the simplest concepts of discourse

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Proaxiom: Your point is dead on, but you're ignoring history (and it's tendancy to repeat itself).

When Israel left, they left a weak fledgling Lebanese gov't fighting to rebuild infrastructure and keep a divided (ethinically) nation together. The military was gutted and most infrastructure was bombed... Israel left telling them to disarm Hizbollah. To put this into context, Israel has pretty much left a beaten and bruised lebanon nakked in the desert with instructions to disarm that group over there... And if you don't we gonna come back and beat you again. Lesson here... Israel left lebanon in a state that it had no possibility of dealing with Hizbollah. Now to make sure we don't repeat this pattern, Israel has taken the precautions of detroying Lebanon infrastructure and eliminating any form of authority the Lebanese gov't may have had.

Now lets add the Lebanese gov't/people motivation to disarm Hizbollah. Lets see, Hizbollah forms as a popular movement against the occupational Israeli troops. They are creddited with driving Israel out and repair the entire infrastructure of southern Lebanon. The lebanese army (who are still applauding the Hizbollah's success in liberating their country) are told to go disarm Hizbollah (who is now a better equipped and funded force).

Hizbollah is a monster cerated by Israeli tactics... And one that'll only grow stronger the more Israel feeds it.

The only way we'll see this pattern change is if the Central Lebanese gov't (the one Israel has nearly crippled and have ignored so many times that they hold little credibility). The continued bombing campaign (and complete willingness to ignore ceasefires) has only advanced Hizbollah support. Afterall, if it was my family that died in one of those apartment buildings, I don't care what religion I was, I would be lining up to get a chance to strike revenge vs those who caused it. Yet we insist they should be lining up to disarm Hizbollah instead.

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That completely dodges the point. I said it is not Hezbollah's job to defend the Lebanese people, it is the responsibility of the government, so Hezbollah cannot use that as an excuse to arm itself.

Lebanon should have disarmed Hezbollah long ago. And if it's not capable of doing so on its own, it should have asked for international help. It would have been forthcoming.

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Errr, no. No international help came nor was willing to (dispite Israel pointing it out on a few ocassions). In southern Lebanon, Hizbollah chased out the occupational forces, rebuilt, and assumed the defence of the nation. I'm not defending them using this standpoint... But can you atleast see why this has happened?

International support couldn't have gotten to most of these regions anyway... Remember Israel bombed the crap outa all the roadways and gas stations. Any international force would have been badly crippled by supply and logsitics.

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Do you think the Canadian government would sit idle if a nationalist militia armed itself and started threatening to destroy the United States? If that militia crossed the Niagara river and started kidnapping and killing Americans, and the Canadian government sat by and watch, what do you think would happen?

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If the Americans were like the Israeli, you are arguing that the correct American line of response would be to destroy every last port and airport within canada, destroy all roadways, disable parts of our gov't (attack on sussex!), a large drop of flyers telling us all to leave to the arctic as fast as possible (keep in mind, road/port/airports have already been disable), and then labled as a ppoulation terrorists, Despite what you viewed of the militia group.

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Are you trying to tell me this was the democratic choice of the Lebanese people to go to war with Israel?

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Originally posted by Noise:
Hizbollah is a monster cerated by Israeli tactics... And one that'll only grow stronger the more Israel feeds it.

The only way we'll see this pattern change is if the Central Lebanese gov't (the one Israel has nearly crippled and have ignored so many times that they hold little credibility). The continued bombing campaign (and complete willingness to ignore ceasefires) has only advanced Hizbollah support. Afterall, if it was my family that died in one of those apartment buildings, I don't care what religion I was, I would be lining up to get a chance to strike revenge vs those who caused it. Yet we insist they should be lining up to disarm Hizbollah instead.

Besides, this entire conflict is just a proxy war between Iran and the US.

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Okay, maybe I don't so much disagree with you. The last point (on the proxy war) is right, but largely irrelevant.

The question, then, is what are Israel's alternatives?

Israel is attacking because it wants to bloody Hezbollah, and show strength, to make Israel's enemies think twice about attacking in future. It also wants that demilitarized buffer zone that would in theory make it difficult for Hezbollah to attack across the border (in practice, I doubt it). It is hard to see this being productive, unless Lebanon maybe steps up and asks for international aid in both reconstructing the country and asserting sovereign authority over the south. Lebanon would be the next Afghanistan, in this scenario.

Assuming that doesn't happen, because I don't think it will, there is just more violence in the future.

But what is the alternative, really? Hezbollah is not at all concerned with diplomatic engagement, and is going to continue attacking Israel. Iran and Syria are not going to stop supporting it. Lebanon's government, even minus the destruction of its infrastructure, is powerless.

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Okay, maybe I don't so much disagree with you.

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You've agreed with me most of the way so far. Problem is, if you critisize Israeli tactics and western ignorance on the situation, you're proclaimed Anit-zionist // Pro-hizbollah pretty quickly. Easy to do on a topic like this.

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What is Israel supposed to do?

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I've been making mention of it through these threads. The only permanent solution to this is a strong central Lebanese gov't capable of uniting the countries various factions. This is a people, not a terrorist group. When these people are part of a strong Lebanon, we won't have this issue.

Since 1980, Israeli tactics have prevented this by weakening the state of Lebanon (through war and bombardment, and occupation). in 2000 they backed off and Lebanon for the first time in decades could rebuild. By no means quick enough and they needed more international support. So far the Israeli military campaign has set it back plus some. Even if the Lebanese gov't wanted to help rebuild after this, theres no way they could and we'll repeat this pattern yet again.

And to make matters worse, the longer this plays out, the more support Hizbollah is gaining, and ultimately the harder it will be for any central Lebanese gov't to take over in places controlled by Hizbollah.

addit to extend:

And theres a western perception that Hizbollah are no more than a group like AQ. A few terror members running around the country side aiming at civilians. Unlike Israel, Hizbollah has killed more military targets than civilian. This line of thought is so incredibly flawed that it's painful to see (and eventually in the case of a poster like Venus_man, all thats left is to swear and them and hope others aren't so narrow minded). They are a field army now... They've divided into divisions and a firm chain of command. They were capable of defeating Israeli troops when the only weapon they had was a bomb strpped to them. Now they have weapons and 6 years of fortifying the terrain. If Israel goes full out invasion, I would not be surprised if Hizbollah emerged the victors. They are in Bint Jbiel (unless Israel has flattened it and killed the entire population already).

A terror group, you can lop off the head and the body will shrivel and die. The Hizbollah has developed much beyond that and even if completely wiped out by Israel (which I doubt possible) the population is there to give rise to Hizbollah2, whatever incarnation that may take.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]
eddited again

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

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The disbanding of the militias was a condition inserted in resolution 1559, long after the Israeli withdrawal

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Yes, Resolution 1559 came later, but, the objective of extending the authority of the Lebanon government preceded that resolution. The UN determined the border and Israel withdrew behind that border. Resolution 1559 reiterated the longheld objective which you have not disputed.

Some would join the Hezbollah in opposing the extension of the authority of the Lebanon government along that border; perhaps you would dispute the border itself, as well. Perhaps even dispute the right of Israel to exist on the other sid eof the border. Maybe you believe that the Lebanon government authorized the Hezbollah act of war against the withdrawn Israelis.

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Hamas and Fatah both have criticized the Hezbollah attack. Hamas acknowledged that Israel had fully withdrawn from Lebanese territory. So perhaps some would disagree with the Palestinians and excuse the Hezbollah.

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Originally posted by Noise:
Venus_man Seriously, Jingles has it right... You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Pointing that out hasn't worked... Swearing at you is about all we haven't tried yet.

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Unlike Israel, Hizbollah has killed more military targets than civilian. This line of thought is so incredibly flawed that it's painful to see

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That is an incredible simplification of things that proves nothing. I hate to sound broken record but I suppose I’ve learned from the Palestinian PR campaign (Occupation must be one of most used English words in the middle east its all because of the occupation??? That rationalizes everything???) anyway that was a bit off topic just to show how things can become annoyingly repetitive. But as far as Hezbollah is concerned once again we know their tactics or do you really want me to do work and get links and evidence its there because there is loads of it just have to organize they hide behind their civilians will Israeli soldiers do the opposite they do their best to shield their civilian population it’s a fact they are not too shabby at it either.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

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But as far as Hezbollah is concerned once again we know their tactics or do you really want me to do work and get links and evidence its there because there is loads of it just have to organize they hide behind their civilians will Israeli soldiers do the opposite they do their best to shield their civilian population it’s a fact they are not too shabby at it either. Free duh?

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That you choose to ignore history does not mean that others do too.

For starters it should respect the democratic will of other people. It should have allowed Hamas to take the reins of power in Palestine because they were elected instead of destabilizing the Occupied Territories. Israel should have engaged the "moderate" parts of Hamas and began giving aid to their hospitals and schools instead of bombing them. You want to marginalize the hardliners then encourage the moderates. If you attack it only strengthens the hardliners.

What credibility can a nation have that bombs needed infrastructure because it was built by the wrong group. That is the same as what the Taliban does in Afghanistan. If the needed infrastructure was built by Western troops then destroy it. If the needed infrastructure is build by Hamas/Hizbollah then destroy it.

This is the same pattern that Israel's master has used throughout the world for half a century or more. Any national liberation movement is attacked and all their good works are destroyed. The obvious example is Micaragua. Don't like the ideology then destabilize and destroy the good works done by your enemy.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1104532006

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Originally posted by venus_man:
Yes, Hamas was democratically elected and Israel did respect the choice, until Hamas kept proclaiming that it is still denying Israel’s right to exist. And who the heck are they to accept or deny Israel’s right to exist. And then of course the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier and kasam bombardment just added oil to the fire. Same in regards to Lebanon. I wouldn’t worry as much about the history because it may work in general terms and as a reference of a sort but not as much in particulars and practicality. Indeed, history is a shady thing. I think we should act on the premises of today and its impact on the immediate as well as long term future conditions and developments.

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