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Author Topic: Zimbabwe elections #5
N.Beltov
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posted 10 April 2008 06:21 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Previous thread here.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 10 April 2008 10:33 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
N Beltov wrote:
quote:
Crimes against humanity, like apartheid, don't register for some unless they're crimes against the part of humanity that they're concerned about.

I should let Stockholm defend himself, but this just goes too far.

This comment from the side that supports condemning Zimbabwe to the murderous thug Mugabe simply because he is opposed by the U.S ( you're with the U.S or you're against them, yes, the Mugabe supporters here really are as stupid as Dumbya) is absolutely disgusting.

So, apparently you're now a racist if you oppose a murderous thug? I think N Beltov has taken his pseudo intellectual I.Q to the limit and his brain has exploded.

[ 10 April 2008: Message edited by: Adam T ]


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 April 2008 10:49 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
So, apparently you're now a racist if you oppose a murderous thug? I think N Beltov has taken his pseudo intellectual I.Q to the limit and his brain has exploded.

[ 10 April 2008: Message edited by: Adam T ]


I think you should post a lot less.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 April 2008 11:00 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're right. S can defend himself. And his comparisons of African public figures to barnyard animals always helps to demonstrate the "strength" of his arguments, just as comparing Palestinians to insects demonstrates the "strength" of those Israelis who are in the habit of making such remarks.

The fact is, none of those who've been so adamant about eliminating Mugabe, including but not only Stockholm, seem to have found the time to bother to mention that Mugabe, despite Gukurahundi and other allegations against him, was a most distinguished and outstanding anti-apartheid fighter at a time when our/Western governments engaged in "constructive engagement" with those odious regimes that are now universally condemned and characterized as crimes against humanity.

As I already remarked, I found it amusing that Stockholm would have a political reflex of defending the US President when the latter was even remotely criticized. This, in the context of his remarks comparing the Zim President to a barnyard animal, etc. It's hard to imagine a more obsequious approach to US foreign policy from a Conservative or right wing Liberal.

But perhaps S. is just a needler, and likes to jab sticks into nests of insects to see what will happen. Neither he nor you should be surprised when he gets stung, sometimes mercilessly, as he often does.


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jeff house
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posted 10 April 2008 11:16 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
just as comparing Palestinians to insects demonstrates the "strength" of those Israelis who are in the habit of making such remarks.

In The First Circle, Solzhenitsyn collects a number of writings of Lenin in which Lenin refers to Menshiviks, capitalists, and "left-S.R.'s" as "insects".

Solzhenitsyn points out that calling your opponents "insects" indicates a willingness to slaughter them, rather than treat them as human beings.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 10 April 2008 11:18 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mugabe was an outstanding freedoom fighter. Please note my use of the past tense, N. Beltov.
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Fidel
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posted 10 April 2008 11:24 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Solzhenitsyn points out that calling your opponents "insects" indicates a willingness to slaughter them, rather than treat them as human beings.

I think that's true. And who ordered the Tsar's security guards to start firing on hungry protesters arriving at the palace gates?

The rich and powerful throughout history have never treated ordinary people as their equals. Catherine was considered a Liberal, but it was too little too late. I think royalty and their rich hangers on thought very little of people in general. It's true today.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 April 2008 11:29 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sure, but Solzhenitsyn was talking about LENIN, not rich people.

I would be very surprised if Mugabe gives one good goddamn about the people of Zimbabwe, whose votes he can't be troubled to make public.

People who support him don't give a shit, either. They are typical Western imperialists, imposing their ideology on a faraway, misunderstood country.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 April 2008 11:39 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's that Cheshire Cat usage of imperialism/imperialists again.

By the way, I'm still looking for a more thorough denunciation of my idea of separating the international news and politics section into 2 parts, Jeff. I'm really hurt that you haven't elaborated your views on this issue more completely, along with a brilliant new definition of imperialism that will stun and amaze us all. C'mon. Pleee-se?


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Adam T
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posted 10 April 2008 11:43 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fidel wrote:
quote:
I think you should post a lot less.

I wish you could think.

N Beltov,
Does it possibly cut through the thick weeds in your head that maybe Mugabe was such an ardent fighter back in the day because he was a power mad lunatic who had alterior motives?

He would hardly be the first 'freedom fighter' who turned out to betray the revolution he claimed to support. No doubt you still support many of those dictators.

[ 10 April 2008: Message edited by: Adam T ]


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 10 April 2008 11:49 AM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Solzhenitsyn points out that calling your opponents "insects" indicates a willingness to slaughter them, rather than treat them as human beings.
What if you call them a "pig"? As in:
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
A lot of other activists haven't been so lucky and have been summarily arrested and beaten by Pig Mugabe's thugs.
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I'm being respectful of Pig Mugabe. He says that all gay people are "worse than pigs". I'm just calling his a pig. He is calling hundreds of millions of people "worse than pigs".

I wonder how many people Mugabe has killed with his bare hands? Probably hundreds. How else do you suppose he entertains himself?


quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

If any "deal" is reached whereby Pig Mugabe voluntarily leaves power, you can be sure it will have nothing in it that is about public policy in Zimbabwe and everything about letting Mugabe escape into exile in China (or wherever) - so he can avoid being charged with crimes against humanity and ending up like Milosevic.


quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Wasn't it nice of Pig Mugabe to squander 100s of millions of dollars trying to colonize Congo while his own people starved.
The discourse hasn't exactly been inspirational.

From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 April 2008 11:53 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, calling people pigs, whether "capitalist pig" or "Mugabe is a pig" is an attempt to dehumanize the Other.

It is bad.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 April 2008 12:47 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
M Spector,
Does it possibly cut through the thick weeds in your head that maybe Mugabe was such an ardent fighter back in the day because he was a power mad lunatic who had alterior motives?

He would hardly be the first 'freedom fighter' who turned out to betray the revolution he claimed to support. No doubt you still support many of those dictators.


I think you may have meant to address this to N. Beltov, but since you dragged me into this, I'll give you my answer anyway:

The ZANU-PF is not and never has been a revolutionary socialist party. Zimbabwe gained independence from Britain and minority white rule, thanks in large part to Mugabe's efforts, but it has never had a socialist revolution. It has been, and remains, a capitalist country, led by a nationalist politician. This is essentially the same story as South Africa, Kenya, Nigeria, and a whole host of former African colonies.

I have no reason to support the capitalist governments of these countries except when imperialist globalizers try to force them to fall into line with the Washington consensus and the dictates of "free trade" and the Bretton Woods institutions. If I thought Tsvangirai was going to do a better job of resisting the imperialists, I might support him, sort of, but he's still just a capitalist politician anyway. I prefer to support those anonymous, unknown, and probably underground Zimbabweans who are struggling to create a real socialist society in Zimbabwe. I don't see Mr. Tsvangirai as being part of that process.

I find the gleeful cheerleading for one capitalist politician over another to be rather unseemly for people who consider themselves socialists. As for those of a somewhat less left persuasion, their cheerleading doesn't surprise me in the least.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 10 April 2008 01:05 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oops, sorry, yes I meant N Beltov. Sorry for the slight.
From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 10 April 2008 01:08 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I found it amusing that Stockholm would have a political reflex of defending the US President when the latter was even remotely criticized.

I don't know why i waste time responding to such total airheads - but here goes. Please show me where I ever "defended" the US President??? All I said was that if there was a risk of being sued for libel for calling Mugabe a mass murderer (which he is) then isn't there also a chance of being sued for libel for calling Bush a war criminal (which he is).


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 April 2008 01:26 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Spector your remarks seem to me to trivialize, somewhat, the enormous difficulties faced by Africans in their liberations struggles. The working class in that continent has gone through a very different development from elsewhere in the world, the national liberation or anti-colonial battles have been intertwined with working class struggles and issues, and all this affects what the respective liberation movements have set as their goals. Africa bears all the terrible scars of slavery, of colonialism, of that most horrific form of institutionalized racism in Apartheid, and of the forced inequality and uneven development of imperialism to this very day. The fact is that an anti-imperialist struggle is not yet an anti-capitalist struggle, not by a long way, and yet that's mostly the stage of struggle that much of Africa is at ... at best. Socialists should not be indifferent to the nuances of these struggles and just because the situation is complicated and not clearly a battle for socialism doesn't mean that the struggle for working class power can be advanced, or harmed, by struggles whose aims are anything but socialism.

It should hardly be necessary to point out, for example, that a successful struggle for women's equality and the rights of women makes that seemingly distant goal of socialism a little closer. More examples could easily spring to mind. In southern Africa the key battle was to smash the apartheid regimes, of which South Africa was only one example, which further developed an African working class. And that is the only class which can, in any case, lead the struggle for socialism in Africa. Or are you expecting some other social force to carry that out? C'mon.

[ 10 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 April 2008 02:01 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The airhead replies ...

Stockholm, you refuse to identify social progress with a particular class or class interests and have to, therefore, stubbornly cling to an abstract idea of right and wrong. This is what allows you to treat as equivalent the crimes of imperialism and the crimes of Mugabe. Mugabe could be gone tomorrow and likely will be. Imperialism won't be gone until this whole socio-economic system is overthrown and replaced with something better. So it's all just an abstract game of true and false to you. In so doing, you never see the forest for the trees.

Furthermore, when people make the argument that I'm making here, they're typically characterized as morally "suspect" for not dumbly subscribing to this loyalty of abstract right.

On the contrary, to take the example of political conflict in Canada, I always take the side of working people, of the working class, because I'm a supporter of socialism and socialism can only be led by working people. This by no means implies, as some are noisily keen to point out, that I think no worker, or worker's leader, can do wrong. It just means I'm socially partisan and willing to say so and try and back it up.

All I've remarked here is simple enough to follow. But I don't believe that you get this at all. And maybe I will just leave it at that.


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jeff house
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posted 10 April 2008 02:23 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The airhead replies ...
Stockholm, you refuse to identify social progress with a particular class or class interests and have to, therefore, stubbornly cling to an abstract idea of right and wrong. This is what allows you to treat as equivalent the crimes of imperialism and the crimes of Mugabe

an abstract idea of right and wrong.......

In other words, you have different standards for your side, who you think, laughably enough, are the working class. And the other guys, the baddies, are the capitalists.

Of course, once you award some party or institution with the honorific title of working class, then all of its activities become justified.

Why do you think Stalin got away with all those crimesÉ Because airheads like you decided he represented the good guy workers! What can you point to in your methodology which would not simply lead to a recurrence of Stalinist crimes.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 April 2008 02:23 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't believe in the "stages" theory of colonial national liberation struggles, whereby the project of socialist revolution must be "postponed" until after the completion of a bourgeois democratic revolution. The Comintern tried to impose this perspective on China, requiring the communists to make an alliance with the nationalist bourgeoisie, represented by the Kuomintang of Chiang-Kai-Shek, in the struggle for independence from Japan, with all-too-predictable disastrous results.

The tasks of national liberation can only be accomplished by the workers’ movement, supported by the peasantry, overthrowing the bourgeoisie and the landowners. Democratic measures (e.g. the agrarian revolution) have to be accompanied by socialist measures (the expropriation of the bourgeoisie), to open up the transition to socialism.

This is why the 1917 Russian revolution went quickly from the bourgeois-democratic (February) to the socialist (October). It is why the inexorable logic of the Cuban revolution had to take on a socialist character in order to achieve national liberation.

You conterpose anti-imperialist struggle to anti-capitalist struggle, whereas I believe they are one and the same. You believe women can achieve equality and full rights without a socialist revolution, whereas I do not.

The attitude of "first we'll get rid of apartheid and then we'll start building the struggle for socialism" ends up legitimizing those who want to postpone socialism by allowing them to counterpose bourgeois-democratic struggles to socialist working-class struggles. Capitulation by socialists to the Mbekis and Mugabes puts the brakes on the socialist revolution and leaves the true completion of the tasks of national liberation for the indefinite future.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 10 April 2008 02:37 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is why the 1917 Russian revolution went quickly from the bourgeois-democratic (February) to the socialist (October). It is why the inexorable logic of the Cuban revolution had to take on a socialist character in order to achieve national liberation.

Actually I think both Russia and Cuba went to tin pot dictators and very ruthless ones at that. You can label them whatever else you like, but I think the main goal for both Lenin and Castro was the exercise of power, however much they may try to have dressed it up as 'worker liberation' nonsense.

The same thing goes for Mugabe as well.

That's not to say that there may not have been some people along with those dictators that genuinely believed in reinventing the world in some way and believing that the only way to do so was through a massive social reingeering that required a dictatorship to achieve. Castro himself may even have believed that somewhat. However, I think we overcomplicate things too much and gives these ruthless and evil dictators too much credit when we don't acknowledge that their primary goal is the ability to exercise power and control over the lives of other people.

[ 10 April 2008: Message edited by: Adam T ]


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 April 2008 02:42 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good grief. Kirk to Enterprise. Beam me aboard. etc.
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John K
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posted 10 April 2008 02:42 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
Nice tidy worldview M. Spector. Too bad it bears so little resemblance to reality.
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Fidel
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posted 10 April 2008 03:03 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Why do you think Stalin got away with all those crimesÉ Because airheads like you decided he represented the good guy workers! What can you point to in your methodology which would not simply lead to a recurrence of Stalinist crimes.

I think Stalin "got away" with those crimes because the bourgeoise openly opposed reforms and tried to hang on to wealth and position. In some cases, they even declared their opposition to the Stalinists before being lined up against cement walls.

In any revolution, the power elite can either stand down and go quietly or stand and fight as Batistas' soldiers and secret police attempted to do before fleeing. In any revolution, the ones with something to fight for sometimes win against impossible odds.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 April 2008 03:05 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
John K: On the contrary, he's not that far off at all. And he's already head and shoulders above others who refuse to take sides in social conflicts, refuse to side with working people, and who think that they can pick and choose sides as if they were making a "choice" between Pepsi and Coke.

[ 10 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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John K
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posted 10 April 2008 03:31 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
N. Beltov, wouldn't taking the side of working people in Zimbabwe mean supporting the MDC? The Zimbabwean trade union movement is at the forefront of those opposing Mugabe.

I'm on the side of those who struggle for democracy, human rights and social justice. The vast majority of average working people (and the international trade union movement) stand with me, not with you.


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 April 2008 03:46 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Zimbabwean trade union movement is at the forefront of those opposing Mugabe.

The MDC candidate has that background. However, if he's going to introduce Bretton Woods "structural adjustment" and eviscerate the public infrastructure, what does it matter? It's going to hurt ordinary Zimbabweans whatever his background.

Have you actually looked at the MDC policies? Land reform will be toast. I'm not willing to look the other way, and the disturbingly close links to Bretton Woods policies, US and British policies and demands, don't bode well for a MDC government.

Of course, if the MDC wins , then Zimbabwe will drop off the media radar in favor of the next flavor of the month.


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Fidel
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posted 10 April 2008 04:16 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:

The MDC candidate has that background. However, if he's going to introduce Bretton Woods "structural adjustment" and eviscerate the public infrastructure, what does it matter? It's going to hurt ordinary Zimbabweans whatever his background.


And several things recommended as a result of Bretton Woods just didn't come to pass since 1946. Like the very undemocratic Bank for International Settlements, a cabal of appointed central bankers who answer to no democratically-elected governments and were responsible for some terrible advice in the 1980's and 90's here in the richest countries. Because of the BIS' business with the Nazis, Keynes recommended the BIS be dismantled. That institution is still around and recommending more bailouts for money-losing deregulated banks racking up huge gambling losses on stocks, money, and insurance markets.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 10 April 2008 04:23 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by John K:
N. Beltov, wouldn't taking the side of working people in Zimbabwe mean supporting the MDC? The Zimbabwean trade union movement is at the forefront of those opposing Mugabe.

I'm on the side of those who struggle for democracy, human rights and social justice. The vast majority of average working people (and the international trade union movement) stand with me, not with you.


I've noted this on earlier threads but the trade union stamp of approval doesn't always put you on the "right" side.

The MDC was formed in reaction to the painful economic hardship brought on by the IMF's structural adjustment program in the late 90s with the support of the Zimbabwean Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU). However, as Mugabe moved away from the IMF and the SAP the MDC moved too - ultimately becoming a coalition that included employers, white farmers. It's hard to say what they stand for now.

As I've noted in other threads, the ZCTU and the MDC now accept funding directly from the US government - recalling the bad old days of the "AFL CIA".

The AFL-CIO (and the ICFTU) has a bad history of supporting less-than-progressive causes. They were key in creating the crisis that ended Allende's government in Chile. In more recent times they worked with Venezuela's unions to bring about the failed coup against Hugo Chavez in 2002.


From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 April 2008 05:42 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mercy:
The AFL-CIO (and the ICFTU) has a bad history of supporting less-than-progressive causes. They were key in creating the crisis that ended Allende's government in Chile. In more recent times they worked with Venezuela's unions to bring about the failed coup against Hugo Chavez in 2002.

This YouTube documentary talks about unknown riflemen, possibly army snipers, shooting into crowds of protesters in Caracas leading up to the military coup against Chavez.

Turkish Gladio 1974

quote:
Former Turkish prime minister Bülent Ecevit recalled he had learned of the existence of Turkish "stay-behind" armies for the first time in 1974. At the time, the commander of the Turkish army, General Semih Sancar, had allegedly informed him the US had financed the unit since the immediate post-war years, as well as the MIT, the Turkish intelligence agency. Ecevit declared he suspected Counter-Guerrilla's involvement in the 1977 Taksim Square massacre in Istanbul, during which snipers opened fire on a protest rally of 500 000 citizens, organized by trade unions on May 1, killing 38 and injuring hundred.

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 10 April 2008 07:10 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Posted by Mercy: I've noted this on earlier threads but the trade union stamp of approval doesn't always put you on the "right" side.

Siding with the likes of Robert Mugabe, however, against Zimbabwe's independent trade union movement definitely puts you on the wrong side, however.

quote:
As criticism of Zimbabwe’s human rights’ record is mounting throughout the international community in the run-up to next week-end’s national elections, the International Trade Union Confederation has denounced what it says is the Mugabe regime’s “most despicable attack yet” against the country’s independent trade union movement. It has today released the text of a strongly-worded protest letter to Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe over the torture of nine leaders and representatives of the Progressive Teachers’ Union of Zimbabwe by agents of the regime on 19 February. The protest is based on new, first-hand information received by the ITUC concerning the severity of the beatings and sexual assaults which took place in a blood-spattered basement room at the headquarters of the ruling party Zanu-PF. The nine were abducted by Zanu-PF militia on the morning of 19 February, and subjected to more than two hours of brutal attacks during the day. The women amongst the nine trade unionists were subjected to sexual assault with iron bars, and five of the trade unionists were hospitalised following the beatings, including two with serious bone fractures.

"This is definitely the most despicable act so far in a long catalogue of anti-union violence and repression lasting for many years", said ITUC General Secretary Guy Ryder. "The Mugabe regime has once again demonstrated with extreme violence its absolute intolerance of peaceful dissent over its disastrous social and economic track record", he added.


despicable attack against trade unionists


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 April 2008 07:48 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mercy:
The AFL-CIO... has a bad history of supporting less-than-progressive causes.
Indeed. Like the Democratic Party, f'rinstance.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 April 2008 10:04 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by John K:

despicable attack against trade unionists


The ITUC is also very critical of IMF SAP's of the 1990's in Zimbabwe, which worked to gut social spending in order to pay down debt to the banking cabal no matter what the human consequences.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 10 April 2008 11:04 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fact that Mugabe "was a most distinguished and outstanding anti-apartheid fighter" is hardly proof that he is anything other than a despot today. Winnie Mandela was, likewise, "a most distinguished and outstanding anti-apartheid fighter," but most of the anti-apartheid movement - including her then husband - felt much need to defend her after her thugs murdered a young teenager.

There was an interesting article online the other day (I'll go see if I can find it again) which looks at his relationship with his late first wife - and suggests that she helped to keep him grounded. It is established that his significant excesses only began after her death.

And while George Bush is a thug, an idiot and everything else, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The mere fact that Bush has taken a position is not sufficient to prove that the position is mistaken. I have it on good authority that George thinks it's wrong to shoot old ladies walking down the street. Does that mean progressives are obliged to start shooting?


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Adam T
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posted 10 April 2008 11:35 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Malcolm, nice to see you're one of the rational ones here on this.

The assumption of the Mugabe supporters here is that the U.S is involved out of some imperialist desire. It is an assumption based on nothing concrete other than a hatred of the United States and a prejudice that the United States is wrong about everything.

The prejudice really is rather ridiculous. The idea that the United States would have some imperialist ambition over a part of the world that they never controlled before and all to defend some white farmers who they almost certainly couldn't care anything about. All the while the sanctions create an opening for the Chinese, the real new global imperialists, to exploit and marginalize the U.S in the process.

The logic is completely lacking, although as I've said here before, logic isn't exactly a strong point for the Mugabe defenders here.

From my readings the U.S has one major reason for their interest in ousting Mugabe: they are the main financers of the refugee camps in South Africa and they are sick of having to pay for the 3 million refugees. There are likely some secondary concerns over the refugees destabilizing South Africa and there may now be some proxy wars with the U.S trying to push China out of the region, so the desire to get rid of Mugabe may be hightened due to that.

Still, for the Mugabe defenders here, I think it's pretty obvious Zimbabwe is nothing but an anti U.S proxy war in their minds and they don't care one bit about the best interests of the people of Zimbabwe.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 April 2008 11:49 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
I have it on good authority that George thinks it's wrong to shoot old ladies walking down the street. Does that mean progressives are obliged to start shooting?

Mugabe is no saint. Mandela wouldn't be a saint today had he and Mbeki not caved in to the IMF and NeoLiberal economic shinola post-apartheid. S. Africa has endured no sanctions or freezing of assets in foreign banks intended to "make the economy scream" as per dozens of examples where the vicious empire has waged economic warfare and interfered politically in other countries.

The exact same posters who silently support the vicious empire and spew their same U.S.-manufactured propaganda about Cuba are now haunting another thread concerning yet another poor country targeted by the USSA and British neocolonials. And they hang on to every word written by pro-USA, pro-British, and pro-Afrikaner neocolonial sources like it was manna from heaven.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2008 05:57 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Robert Mugabe of ZANU-PF and Morgan Tsvangirai of the MDC will be attending the same summit this weekend.

quote:
(political commentator and writer) Dr Alex Magaisa says it is unlikely Mugabe and Tsvangirai will be in the same room at the summit but that the SADC leaders will have separate meetings with the two rivals.

SADC Emergency Summit

This is good. Very good.


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Doug
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posted 11 April 2008 11:05 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
[QB]

The MDC candidate has that background. However, if he's going to introduce Bretton Woods "structural adjustment" and eviscerate the public infrastructure, what does it matter? It's going to hurt ordinary Zimbabweans whatever his background.
[QB]


It would be really hard to do economic policy worse than it's already done in Zimbabwe, even if the MDC implements every last word of what the IMF, etc, have to say.


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N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2008 11:22 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, land reform is a good idea in Zimbabwe. The black majority should have more of a role in economic life besides being cheap labour on white farms. However, by all accounts, the implementation by Mugabe of land reform was awful, to put it mildly.

You didn't mention any specific policies of the IMF and other Bretton Woods institutions other than giving them a carte blanche or blank cheque. You might be interested to know that the policies of the World Bank and World Trade Organization (WTO), sister institutions of the IMF, were described in great detail by Michel Chossudovsky as "Exporting Apartheid" to sub-Saharan Africa in his book, The Globalization of Poverty.

Are you saying that the restoration of apartheid is better than a ZANU-PF regime under Mugabe?


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N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2008 11:33 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's outline some of those Bretton Wood policies ...

1. Expropriation of Peasant Lands;
2. Derogating Customary Land Rights;
3. Afrikaner Farms in Mozambique;
4. Creating "Rural Townships";
5. Foreign Aid Supporting the Establishing of White Farms;
6. Fostering Ecotourism;
7. Carving Up the National Territory.

And I'm not even mentioning the real causes of famine in Somalia by the IMF, the economic genocide in Rwanda, the installation of a US protectorate in Central Africa, the destruction of Ethiopia's peasant economy, the destruction of biodiversity, etc., etc., etc., etc., ...

Your turn to heap fulsome praise on the IMF.


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jeff house
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posted 11 April 2008 11:52 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stockholm, you refuse to identify social progress with a particular class or class interests and have to, therefore, stubbornly cling to an abstract idea of right and wrong. This is what allows you to treat as equivalent the crimes of imperialism and the crimes of Mugabe.

I have seldom seen a more direct admission that you are willing to lie on behalf of "your" side, and to justify crimes of that "side", in this case Mugabe.

Most human beings try to be FAIR and EVEN-HANDED, even though you admit you don't do that.

So, why should anyone bother with your opinions? Shouldn't they just be discounted from the start?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 April 2008 11:53 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:

It would be really hard to do economic policy worse than it's already done in Zimbabwe, even if the MDC implements every last word of what the IMF, etc, have to say.


Zimbabwe would have no choice once again if an MDC government were to accept IMF austerity measures. Unlike Nicaragua, Zimbabwe would have no Cuba to help pick up the pieces after more than a decade of failed IMF policies fo starving social spending and infrastructure development. Controlling a country monetarily amounts to colonialism, even if there was evidence that neoLiberal economic reforms actually worked to improve conditions anywhere in the world.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 11 April 2008 11:56 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it is the vile foreigners who have made Zimbabwe an economic basket case!

The government of Zimbabwe has NO responsibility!

Blame the other guys!


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2008 12:05 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
decaf, Jeff. Try it. You will like it you will see. You will like it in a tree.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 11 April 2008 12:18 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Let's outline some of those Bretton Wood policies ...

1. Expropriation of Peasant Lands;
2. Derogating Customary Land Rights;
3. Afrikaner Farms in Mozambique;
4. Creating "Rural Townships";
5. Foreign Aid Supporting the Establishing of White Farms;
6. Fostering Ecotourism;
7. Carving Up the National Territory.


Could you direct me to the parts of the Bretton Woods agreement that actually says anything that is remotely related to these claims?


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 April 2008 12:34 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think N.B. is referring to the SAP policies aka "Washington consensus" advocated by Bretton Woods institutions as loan stipulations to developing countries since start of the 1990's or so.

To be sure, the IMF extends short-term "emergency" loans to poor countries as well as topping up central banks with "liquidity" from time to time, if I'm not mistaken. The Washington-based World Bank is more a fund for long-term investment and doesn't enjoy the same bad reputation as the notorious IMF and WTO with introducing "globalization" and "deregulation"


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2008 12:36 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha ha, I'm not surprise by that sort of question from you, Professor. I will remark that the "Food Corridor", which is very much connected to these matters, was heavily promoted through the IMF-World Bank sponsored structural adjustment programme. A key player in all of this is the South African Chamber for Agricultural Development, or SACADA.

Of course you could actually read Chossundovsky's book, which is well footnoted with references to the Mosagrius Agreement, etc. You could even check the website he's associated with in some of his work and maybe get a cheap summary of his views without having to buy or sign out the book from a library.


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Stephen Gordon
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posted 11 April 2008 12:41 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
Or you could just explain it for us.
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N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2008 12:55 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just did. Look up "Food Corridor", SACADA, Mosagrius, and so on. I'm not going to write out, longhand for your edification, entire sections of a book.

Good grief. You're the economist and you're asking me to provide you with things that you're much better equipped to get your hands on than I ever will be. I don't think you're all that interested in looking anyway, but that's beside the point.

Here's a link for those interested ...

Global Research DOT Ca


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 11 April 2008 01:13 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for the references, N. Beltov. The applause in this thread for global capitalism is starting to give me acid reflux. I need an antidote.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 April 2008 01:33 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Yes, it is the vile foreigners who have made Zimbabwe an economic basket case!

The government of Zimbabwe has NO responsibility!

Blame the other guys!


How would you describe it then, when an international cabal of financiers desire to install non-elected central bankers in a country and turn entire countries into real estate selloffs? This is exactly what they did in former Yugoslavia and several other instances.

Jeff, what do you think about the democratic deficit in Canada that's existed for the last 140 years in a row? Do you think our money creation and economic policies should be placed in the hands of an international banking cabal and money speculators? Because if so, then you share a world view held by a certain political stripe who actually lost the 2000 election and whose friends in Ottawa are propped up with somewhere less than 24 percent of the eligible vote right now.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 11 April 2008 02:26 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh yes, the "international cabal" who are so nasty to Mugabe !

Sorry, but there were elections there, and the voters rejected all the finger-pointing by those who won't take responsibility for failing.

Mugabe won't even release the results of the vote, all the while calling for new elections which he calls a "run off".

Which bankers are making him do that? Don't you get tired of cringing apologies for every goddamn dictator on the planet?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 11 April 2008 02:38 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For anyone interested in the facts, the anti-Mugabe Zimbabwe Election Support Network has already released their tally and conluded that no candidate won a majority. Even Tsvanagirai's MDC estimated that he won 50.3 per cent.

Under Zimbabwe's Constitution anything less than 50 per cent would necesitate a run-off.

I'd say it's fair game to ask why the results haven't been released but saying that there should be no run-off is about as unconstitutional as saying Mugabe should be declared winner.


From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 April 2008 02:39 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Oh yes, the "international cabal" who are so nasty to Mugabe !

Yes, the same cabal which laundered money for the Nazis in the 1940's, and the same cabal which have extended their influence across the globe since. It's no secret that Canada's economic fortunes lie with what Bay Street wants. And who in hell are they? I didn't vote for them, did you? Seig heil!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 April 2008 02:43 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mercy:
I'd say it's fair game to ask why the results haven't been released but saying that there should be no run-off is about as unconstitutional as saying Mugabe should be declared winner.

That's okay, because democratizers here are rarely ever interested as to why it takes days and days to count votes in other backward nations around the world where a vicious empire exerts political and monetary control over for a long time.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 11 April 2008 07:58 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:

The prejudice really is rather ridiculous. The idea that the United States would have some imperialist ambition over a part of the world that they never controlled before and all to defend some white farmers who they almost certainly couldn't care anything about. All the while the sanctions create an opening for the Chinese, the real new global imperialists, to exploit and marginalize the U.S in the process.


I will quibble about one abstraction.

US foreign policy is always predicated on the administration's analysis of American interest. Hence, any foreign policy position - even if it happens to be morally correct - will be motivated principally by what is good for the US, not what is good for the people of whatever country.

That said, the same could be said for virtually every other government in the history of the world.

The thing is, there will be those occasions where the best interests of the people of X happen to coincide with the best interests of the United States as interpreted by the administration.

This may be one of those cases.

But even if the American position is based entirely on US interests and some grandiose scheme iinvolving oil pipelines or whatever, that does not, of itself, prove (as some here seem to argue) that Mugabe is the noble victim and Tsvangirai an evil imperialist puppet.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 14 April 2008 07:05 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MDC loses in courts calls for a general "stayaway":
quote:
Supa Mandiwanzera, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Zimbabwe, reporting from the capital, Harare, said the MDC strongly believed it had won the elections and saw the court decision as "another delaying tactic".

He said the MDC's subsequent call for a strike could "make or break" the party.

"If the stay-away is successful, then it will show the anger that the majority of Zimbabweans have, but if it is unsuccessful, it could also show that the MDC doesn't have any sway in terms of getting people on to the streets regarding this matter," he said.

Outside of Zimbabwe, international pressure for publication of the results has mounted.

At a summit in Lusaka, Zambia's capital, during the weekend, southern African leaders said the election result should be released "expeditiously".
What happens next is crucial. If the MDC fails to mobilize people what happens next?

From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 April 2008 07:30 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People sometimes forget that only U.S.-managed elections are considered free and fair.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 15 April 2008 05:03 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mercy:
If the MDC fails to mobilize people what happens next?
I guess people just lose interest. I noticed a lack of coverage in the papers today but the Globe and Mail did note in an online only story: "Zimbabwe 'election-results' strike flops". Maybe it's the time zones. Or maybe, as I suspect, the media (and people here) are losing interest in Zimbabweans who are failing to follow the neat little narrative that's been laid out for them.

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jrootham
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posted 15 April 2008 08:03 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
People sometimes forget that only U.S.-managed elections are considered free and fair.

Fidel you cause me pain. You force me to agree with Malcolm French. Ouch.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 April 2008 09:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:

Fidel you cause me pain. You force me to agree with Malcolm French. Ouch.


Well I'm sorry, but I can't vouch for Tsvangirai, head of the MDC who has recently called for violent removal of Zanu-PF government. That doesn't sound very democratic to me.

Tsvangirai’s MDC has no plan for land reform. Meanwhile, the country’s best farmland is still in possession of a rich white minority. This sounds like the setup in Latin America where the U.S. has supported corrupt governments in countries where an elite minority of land barons own large parcels of the best farmland granted them by Spanish colonial laws.

MDC stands for NeoLiberal economic policies promoted by the West, and especially by Britain, Rhodesia's former brutal colonizers.

I can't think of one progressive government or movement that the American CIA or British elites have aided or abetted or pushed to the political forefront over the last five or six decades. Can anyone else?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
pk34th45
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posted 16 April 2008 06:23 AM      Profile for pk34th45        Edit/Delete Post
Mugabe's partisans begin the witch hunt

Globeandmail

STEPHANIE NOLEN

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

April 16, 2008 at 3:51 AM EDT

JOHANNESBURG — Their first target is Nelia Gomba, a tall, frail woman in her late 40s. She is visibly shivering when a young woman in military fatigues drags her out of the crowd.

"This is Nelia and she is here to make a confession," the young woman shouts to the four dozen people packed into the community hall. Then she pins Ms. Gomba to the ground.

But the older woman, her face on the floor, says nothing. And so two more youths step forward carrying leather whips.

In the crowd, Ms. Gomba's daughter, Synodia, begins to scream, but is quickly silenced with a cracking slap from another youth in fatigues.

At the front of the room, the youth kicks Ms. Gomba in the face and blood starts to ooze from her nose. "That is what you get for trying to sneak the MDC through the backdoor," she snarls. Then they begin to use the whips. At first Ms. Gomba cries out; in response, the youths hit her harder.

Eventually she stops screaming, and the noise as the whips hit her body is the only sound in the room. The crowd sits silent in the light of flickering paraffin lamps. Ms. Gomba loses consciousness after 15 minutes of this, and her family is ordered to carry her away.


From: The Netherlands | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 16 April 2008 06:43 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anti-Chinese racism is also rearing its ugly head. But that is more the work of the MDC and the opposition, who have recently drawn attention to Chinese arms shipments in Durban, and seem to be stoking the hatred in creative ways ...

quote:
Zimbabwean’s joke, bitterly, about how Mugabe is allowing the Chinese to colonise our country. They refer to the Chinese products flooding our shops as ‘zhing zhong’. ‘Zhing zhong’ has now become a term used to describe anything that breaks or doesn’t work when you buy it.

See "This is Zimbabwe" for more.

afrol news also notes an MDC agent murdered in Harungwe West (in the North West).

Zim opposition agent murdered.

quote:
afrol news: Officials of Zimbabwe's main opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) have been shocked with the murder of the party's election agent in the northwestern constituency of Harungwe West.

The MDC officials accused militants of the ruling Zanu-PF party of stabbing Tapiwa Mubwanda to death at the weekend.



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Stockholm
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posted 16 April 2008 06:53 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The election was 16 days ago and the ZANU-PF thugs that run the election machinery are still refusing to release any results. I can only assume that Mugabe lost by such a gigantic margin that it is taking over two weeks for them to stuff the ballot boxes enough that they can declare him the winner.
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N.Beltov
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posted 16 April 2008 07:16 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
onesoulzim1 at allAfrica.com: The people’s abhor of Mugabe’s politics does not directly mean MDC’s policies are respected neither. People have been more than ready to end this tantrum political behavior of RG Mugabe notwithstanding how a dear leader he is to many. The MDC camp has been more chaotic this time around but the electorate voted them in only to safeguard the people’s purpose. MDC must realize people’s power and not be fooled by thinking that Zimbabweans want Biti, Chamisa, Bernnet and Morgan to form a govt. If these guys are to form a gvt then it will be to help the very purpose of removing ZANU from its malpractices, period....

Stay away, strikes, violence and international lobbying is not in the best interest of Zimbabweans. It is only the VOTE through properly constituted laws that we will respond. As Mugabe tries to run away with the presidential vote the electorate knows that it is for a short while before the law and the people catch him, let us patiently pursue until he is tired. The European world had long lost in its considered opinion by thinking that Zimbabweans can be persuaded to war.



From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 16 April 2008 08:16 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please Un do something I abeg. I am a middle aged woman and have been in Zimbabwe since Mugabe was put to power, I have lives deterirating by the day under rule. He has stollen many elections and please at the moment we have a crisis our relative are being killed at night by the Government sponsored thugs becuase of voting for the opposition. MDC won please assist sdo that the hraming and killing of poeple stops . Please Head of UN I Beg as a mother in Zimbabwe.

Woried Zim on allafrica

quote:
Now they are being made to pay for that act of electoral bravery.

On April 1, Zimbabwe's electoral commission announced that this and many other constituencies had gone to the MDC, enough to give the party control of Parliament for the first time in Zimbabwe's history.

Five days later, the youth militia arrived.

There are about 25 of them and they have established a rough camp in the hills above the village......


.....And that first night, around 8 o'clock, they moved through the villages, carrying sticks and whips, and ordered everyone to attend a meeting. People were told that if their relatives and neighbours were not there, they would be held accountable.

The meetings are called pungwe, the chiShona word for "a night vigil.".....

......Outsiders are never allowed to witness these meetings; a Globe contributor sneaked in to the Chiduku gathering last Saturday night to provide a rare first-hand account.

At the opening of the meeting, the crowd was ordered to join in singing liberation war-era songs urging people to take their guns and fight for their country: "sell-outs must be killed," the lyrics go. Then there were speeches, denunciations from militia members who appeared to be high on drugs of "traitors," "rabid dogs of the west" and "puppets."



G+M

Its obvious that Mugabe and his thugs have no place to turn and are rats in a corner. If they could leave Zimbabwe with their loot,they would but anywhere they turn,justice awaits them so they will continue killing and stealing.

Awaiting Mugabe's demise is no solution because his henchmen are still unable to flee with their loot.

quote:
As Mugabe tries to run away with the presidential vote the electorate knows that it is for a short while before the law and the people catch him

For the people to catch him, they will need exceptional courage to confront the militias who attempt to coerce the Mugabe vote.

Can Zimbabweans face slaughter at the hands of Mugabe's thug militias in the run-off election just to see Mugabe steal the vote regardless?


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 16 April 2008 09:08 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A way has to be found to get the electoral results made public. Everyone knows this. A runoff is only appropriate if there is no clear winner.

Mugabe will just further narrow his base if he doesn't compel the ZEC to finish its work. I don't see how he can avoid this. I'm still hoping for relative peace following the publication of the results. The old man looks to be having a tantrum.

quote:
South African Communist Party: We are extremely worried and strongly condemn the ZEC’s clandestine management and failure to announce all the results, more than two weeks after voting. There is every merit to the insistence that all election results be expeditiously announced. The SACP fully supports such a call.

Consistent with the past SACP principled perspectives, our view is that current day Zimbabwe represents a post-colonial aberration of national democratic objectives of transformation, in which popular aspirations are deferred, in the interest of narrowly elitist accumulation projects of a small bureaucratic stratum and the most parasitic sections of the ruling class.

The SACP remains convinced that the principal cause of the deteriorating situation in Zimbabwe is that of a degenerating national liberation movement, which once fought a heroic struggle, but now paying the price of being trapped in state power that is not buttressed by the people’s will.

The intransigence of not releasing the results, and the deployment of police and the army within communities, represents the growing alienation of sections of the Zimbabwean elites from control and monopoly of bureaucratic state power.

It is important that South Africa and SADC, does not pander to the whims of the Zimbabwean elites, and should allow the realization of democratic aspirations of the poor people of Zimbabwe. Otherwise this sets a terribly bad precedent for the SADC region, if not the African continent as a whole.

Failure to release the election results is tantamount to stealing the elections from the people and risks whatever little credibility that ZEC still had.


When your anti-Apartheid comrades are saying such things, it's time to follow their advice.

SACP Statement on the Recent Developments in Zimbabwe.

[ 16 April 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 16 April 2008 09:20 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When your anti-Apartheid comrades are saying such things, it's time to follow their advice.


That still leaves Mugabe between a rock and a hard place. Even if he is offered asylum in some other despot's haven, his minions are not likely to surrender power.

The choice for Mugabe and his minions is either cede power, facing loss of both their freedom and the benefit of their booty or extend the repression, cocking a snook at the toothless international community.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 16 April 2008 09:36 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tsvangirai has made some of the right noises in terms of making it clear that he will restrain his supporters from carrying out retributions against Mugabe and ZANU should the MDC win the election. It's important that T. keep that position and, especially since he doesn't seem to have the necessary mass support for a civil disobedience campaign, focus on the main thing which is the election results.

There's plenty of time to prosecute Mugabe later on and, besides which, Southern Africa already has established a record of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, headed by Bishop Tutu, that went ahead with the view that exposing the crimes of the apartheid regime was more important than prosecuting its foot soldiers. How quickly people "forget" such things ...


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 16 April 2008 09:42 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When your anti-Apartheid comrades are saying such things, it's time to follow their advice.

Or, rather than following the views of the South African Communist Party which you link us to, and which are dated today, you could think for yourself, even before they tell us their opinions? The facts are simple:

1. Zimbabwe had elections;

2. Zanu and its friends won't release the results;

3. The Zanu octogenarian in power claims that he can stay in power if he wins a second election.

Surely, elementary democratic principle requires the vote to be made public, and no second election be called until the results of the first one are determined.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 16 April 2008 12:52 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a report from today's Globe about post-election attacks on anti-Mugabe citizens:

quote:
JOHANNESBURG — Their first target is Nelia Gomba, a tall, frail woman in her late 40s. She is visibly shivering when a young woman in military fatigues drags her out of the crowd.

"This is Nelia and she is here to make a confession," the young woman shouts to the four dozen people packed into the community hall. Then she pins Ms. Gomba to the ground.

But the older woman, her face on the floor, says nothing. And so two more youths step forward carrying leather whips.


At the front of the room, the youth kicks Ms. Gomba in the face and blood starts to ooze from her nose. "That is what you get for trying to sneak the MDC through the backdoor," she snarls. Then they begin to use the whips. At first Ms. Gomba cries out; in response, the youths hit her harder.

Eventually she stops screaming, and the noise as the whips hit her body is the only sound in the room. The crowd sits silent in the light of flickering paraffin lamps. Ms. Gomba loses consciousness after 15 minutes of this, and her family is ordered to carry her away.

In Zimbabwe's national election on March 29, Nelia Gomba volunteered as a polling agent for the opposition Movement for Democratic Change.


There's lots more detail in the paper:

mugabe prepares for "run-off"


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 16 April 2008 01:31 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
There are two links with quotes from that article already. FWIW, the SACP likely knows more about Mugabe than the G+M. allafrica is good too.
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 16 April 2008 01:48 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the SACP likely knows more about Mugabe than the G+M.


But of course this is an argument for basing one's judgments world-wide on what the local Communist Party says.

I wouldn't disregard eyewitness reports from inside South Africa, even if they are printed, or reprinted, in the Globe and Mail.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 April 2008 02:02 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Tsvangirai has made some of the right noises in terms of making it clear that he will restrain his supporters from carrying out retributions against Mugabe and ZANU should the MDC win the election.

CPGB says free and fair elections certainly did not take place in Zimbabwe recently.

Attempts to destabilise and subvert

quote:
For the last several months, and particularly in the few days leading up to the election, the MDC and its imperialist backers attempted to prejudice the results by loudly shouting that the election would not be ‘free and fair’, citing the fact that western countries were banned from monitoring the elections.

In fact, the elections were conducted in exemplary fashion, and were hailed as free and fair, democratic, credible and transparent by all the organisations that monitored them, including the Southern African Development Community (SADC), the African Union (AU), the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (Comesa), the Pan African Parliament and Zimbabwe Lawyers for Justice. That Zanu didn’t rig the election is amply evidenced by the fact that they didn’t preserve their majority in parliament! History is not exactly littered with examples of organisations rigging elections in order to almost win.

However, we aren’t able to say that the recent elections were completely free from interference. Far from it. Britain and the US in particular have been making every effort to bribe the people of Zimbabwe into rejecting the leadership of Mugabe and Zanu-PF.

Suffocating sanctions have been introduced in order to destabilise the country, and there has been a relentless propaganda campaign, both in Zimbabwe and internationally, designed to discredit the Zimbabwean leadership and prepare the way for a neo-colonial stooge like Tsvangirai.


Would our stooges here recognize the results of an election given that China or Iran or CUBA!!! were to interfere with our stoogeocracy's campaign to install a tin pot phony-majority dictatorship in Toronto or Ottawa? I think there would be no end to squawking protests claiming foul.

Ambassador to the U.S. Machivenyika J. Mapuranga(YouTube) explains why it has taken as long as it has to count and collate votes from several thousand polling stations. Apparently this election was a first of a kind in Zimbabwe with municipal, judicial, senate, and presidential elections all taking place at once.

[ 16 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 16 April 2008 07:18 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

Or, rather than following the views of the South African Communist Party which you link us to, and which are dated today, you could think for yourself, even before they tell us their opinions? The facts are simple:

1. Zimbabwe had elections;

2. Zanu and its friends won't release the results;

3. The Zanu octogenarian in power claims that he can stay in power if he wins a second election.

Surely, elementary democratic principle requires the vote to be made public, and no second election be called until the results of the first one are determined.


I get confused on point 3. Are you opposed to the very concept of run-off elections? Or do you think Mugabe is just a cheater who forgot to cheat adequately in the initial campaign?

Again. I think its fair to demand the ZEC share results. I'm not sure that its legit to criticize ZANU for agreeing to contest a run-off.


From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 17 April 2008 04:11 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It appears as though people are now being encouraged to vote the right way in a runoff.

quote:
The people in the hospital had different stories.

One man said the Zanu-PF youth and militias had gone to a MDC agent and got a list of all the MDC supporters in the village, then they went on a campaign of visiting houses and assaulting people.

Others were told there was a meeting in the village they had to attend. Then people were being called in individually and beaten up.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7351564.stm


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N.Beltov
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posted 17 April 2008 05:24 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Morgan Tsvangirai has said he would only take part in a presidential election run-off if the Southern African Development Community was allowed to oversee every stage of the count.

US and UN discussion


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 17 April 2008 09:00 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:


But of course this is an argument for basing one's judgments world-wide on what the local Communist Party says.


Only if your bias doesn't allow critical thought.

quote:

I wouldn't disregard eyewitness reports from inside South Africa, even if they are printed, or reprinted, in the Globe and Mail.

I find that reading the posts of others provides continuity and context. In that regard, you will find I have both posted and regarded eyewitness accounts from the G+M.

I suppose being open-minded requires actually reading sources before judging their merit or lack thereof. Whether its the National Post or the South African Communist Party.

[ 17 April 2008: Message edited by: jester ]


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 17 April 2008 09:12 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post

Zim inflation running at 164,900%. Mugabe had $32 trillion worth of bills printed to repay the IMF $221 million US in order to remain in the IMF.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 April 2008 12:33 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7351564.stm

This is terrible. And what more credible a source than news emanating from the former imperial master nation and aspiring NeoColonialists, "Cool" Britannia? God Save the Queen!!!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 17 April 2008 01:39 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Meanwhile, South African officials have confirmed to the BBC that a Chinese ship anchored off the port of Durban does contain arms destined for Zimbabwe.

The officials said South Africa could not interfere in a trade deal between two nations but only ensure proper procedures were followed.


BBC Africa

From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 17 April 2008 01:49 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, we should close our minds to all news "emanating from" the "former imperial master", even if they have a reporter right on the scene.

Instead, we should just do what the Communist Party tells us, because of their evident purity.

It is always better to assume that a political party, especially the Communist Party, is trying to be objective and neutral in its presentation of facts, while a news organization like the BBC is trying to impose imperialism everywhere.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 April 2008 01:53 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what has the BBC said about this underreported news story still taking place in the Congo? Ya?
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 17 April 2008 02:15 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha ha! Changing the subject again! So funny!

By the way, can you tell me why the Cuban Communist newspaper hasn't reported ONE SINGLE WORD about elections in Zimbabwe (the subject of this thread) yet?

Imagine living in Cuba and not hearing a word about it.

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2008/internacional-28i.html


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 17 April 2008 02:44 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh my gawd Jeff I didn't know that Miami radio and TV stations had stopped broadcasting into Cuba. Tell us when did this occur?

But you know they could always just look here.

Prensa Latina


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 April 2008 02:54 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Ha ha! Changing the subject again! So funny!

I don't think the fact that U.S. proxies Rwanda and Uganda have slaughtered 5 million human beings in the Congo is a laughing matter, Jeff. Zimbabwe has been a key ally for their Congolese neighbors taking the brunt of the vicious empire's proxy war waged in the region.

I must admit your's is a morbid sense of humour. But I find nothing so humorous about what has been an ongoing holocaust in the Congo.

quote:
Imagine living in Cuba and not hearing a word about it.

That's easy, Jeff. The Communists in Cuba are deliberately blocking internet access. No need to dig deeper than your own bias, is there?

[ 17 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 17 April 2008 02:54 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A pox on both your houses.

Red baiting vs slavish apologia is really annoying to the rest of us.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 17 April 2008 02:55 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmm... why would Jeff lie about something this simple to verify on the Prensa Latina site - and not the int'l web site he linked us to?
(Back edited for documentation)
quote:
Líder opositor participará en segunda vuelta electoral en Zimbabwe
Harare, 17 abr (PL) El líder opositor Morgan Tsvangirai declaró hoy que aceptará participar en una segunda vuelta electoral por la presidencia de Zimbabwe.
En declaraciones al canal televisivo surafricano E.T.V, Tsvangirai dio un giro de 180 grados a su posición de declinar otra consulta por la primera magistratura.
Su única condición, apuntó, es que el ejercicio sea supervisado por observadores de la Comunidad para el Desarrollo de Países de Africa Austral (SADC) y de otras entidades.
Hasta ahora el titular del opositor Movimiento para el Cambio Democrático (MDC) preconizó que había ganado los comicios del pasado 29 de marzo con 50,3 por ciento de las boletas.
El MDC basó ese presunto triunfo en una encuesta a pie de urna violatoria de la ley en este país.
Según el reglamento, la Comisión Electoral de Zimbabwe (ZEC) es la encargada de difundir los resultados de las justas pasadas.
Ese organismo sólo divulgó lo ocurrido en los comicios por los puestos de la Asamblea Nacional y del Senado, pero no los de las presidenciales.
Responsables de la ZEC alegan que el recuento de votos en 23 circunscripciones ha dilatado el proceso. En esos distritos se comprobaron prácticas ilegales, apuntó un comunicado de la entidad.
lma/arc

That is actually much better than the info we get in Canada, which is all editorializing about Mugabe refusing to release results, and "international observers" and "diplomatic sources" confidentially confdiing they are afraid he may be stuffing ballots as we speak.
Another JeffHouseism:
quote:

Imagine living in Cuba and not hearing a word about it.
I imagine that's because you're supposed to read that paper...

[ 17 April 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

[ 17 April 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 17 April 2008 03:08 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:
A pox on both your houses.

Red baiting vs slavish apologia is really annoying to the rest of us.


It's like a bad flashback of the cold war.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 17 April 2008 07:12 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

By the way, can you tell me why the Cuban Communist newspaper hasn't reported ONE SINGLE WORD about elections in Zimbabwe (the subject of this thread) yet?

They're afraid Cubans will get inspired and demand Zimbabwe-style elections too?

No?

Ok, I give up.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 17 April 2008 08:36 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
So what has the BBC said about this underreported news story still taking place in the Congo? Ya?

Probably not so much because they don't have the French-speaking journalists they'd need to properly cover it. It shouldn't come as a big surprise that the BBC's focus in reporting on Africa tends to be on anglophone Africa.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 17 April 2008 08:48 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

This is terrible. And what more credible a source than news emanating from the former imperial master nation and aspiring NeoColonialists, "Cool" Britannia? God Save the Queen!!!


The same can be found from news sources in South Africa - such as this.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 April 2008 10:00 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:

The same can be found from news sources in South Africa - such as this.


And it says:

quote:
The doctors association condemned the upsurge in violence and called upon all political parties to "cease the use of intimidation, violence and torture as a form of retribution or victimisation".

I condemn the upsurge in violence as well. The MDC "prayer" meetings are suddenly not so peaceful anymore.

eta: Has anyone ever called up 50 or 100 friends to go downtown and protest homelessness or child poverty? And how long did it take for the cops to show up and tell you and your unlawful gathering blocking traffic and hassling passers by(and vice versa) that you had to break it up? I think the instruction for civil disobedience they receive in countries targeted for regime change is sometimes bad advice. Especially when protesters assault police officers. Those tactics don't work well in any country.

[ 17 April 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Caissa
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posted 18 April 2008 05:17 AM      Profile for Caissa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
South African dock workers have refused to unload a shipment of arms destined for Zimbabwe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7353929.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7354428.stm

[ 18 April 2008: Message edited by: Caissa ]


From: Saint John | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 April 2008 06:13 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
tat
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 18 April 2008 10:03 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is why(BBC YouTube) millions have died in the Congo over the last several years. Congo represents a cornucopia of mineral and precious metal wealth. And like Latin America's dirty wars of the recent past, western governments and corporations believe today it is their right to go out and hack off pieces of that wealth for themselves by hook or crook, proxy wars and by wild west law.

China is also desperate for resources, and China's state banks, government, and Chinese enterprises propose to build thousands of miles of roads, highways, railways, 32 hospitals and two new universities in the Congo. We know what the result was in Latin America when Marxists and others attempted to build schools and hospitals for desperately poor people in the 1970's-80's. A vicious nuclear powered empire waged a series of dirty wars on poor people for years on end.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 19 April 2008 10:50 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of China....

quote:
Chinese troops have been seen on the streets of Zimbabwe's third largest city, Mutare, according to local witnesses. They were seen patrolling with Zimbabwean soldiers before and during Tuesday's ill-fated general strike called by the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC).

Earlier, 10 Chinese soldiers armed with pistols checked in at the city's Holiday Inn along with 70 Zimbabwean troops.

One eyewitness, who asked not to be named, said: "We've never seen Chinese soldiers in full regalia on our streets before. The entire delegation took 80 rooms from the hotel, 10 for the Chinese and 70 for Zimbabwean soldiers."


Very very interesting!


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 19 April 2008 10:57 AM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
Searching for Zimbabwean Tibet supporters?
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 April 2008 11:33 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
Very very interesting!

The Chinese are simply supplying a market niche. We are continually reminded that China is a capitalist nation afterall.

U.S. and other countries' arms manufacturers have been supplying weapons in the region for many years. There are plantations and slavery in the Congo going on 50 years since CIA and Belgian colonialists murdered their first and last democratically-elected prime minister in the Congo. It's been divvied up into poorer and richer territories since. There needs to be a united Africa and to kick the rich whites out permanently. And, I don't think rich white people have much of a positive history of development or of working toward progress in Africa. Rich white colonials would not be missed.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 19 April 2008 12:25 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess they need anonymous witness stories to fill the news hole - but I don't think China's going to be backing a Mugabe crackdown. Time may prove me wrong.

What I think is most interesting are the tactics of the MDC. The "stayaway" or general strike was pretty much a failure. Now Tsvangarai is refusing to return to the country - which might be smart but is hardly likely to inspire the sort of uprising that is needed to produce a change in government.

It seems that Tsvangirai's hoping that he can rally international support - but I can't see South Africa or other countries reacting unless they see some signs that the people will rise up otherwise - which is pretty much what happened with Kenya.

Am I missing something? Why can't the MDC muster up any show of support? I know the one argument - "the people are too afraid" - but fear of reprisal hasn't slowed other countries (or Zimbabwaeans two decades ago).


From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 19 April 2008 05:26 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Am I missing something? Why can't the MDC muster up any show of support? I know the one argument - "the people are too afraid" - but fear of reprisal hasn't slowed other countries (or Zimbabwaeans two decades ago).

You may be missing perspective on how Mugabe's state security apparatus has had a great deal of time to seep into every aspect of Zimbabwean life.

Also that by resorting to violence to overthrow Mugabe, Zimbabweans will merely perpetuate the cycle of totalitarianism.

The Telegraph

quote:
"Imagine a picture of evil then darken it, that's Mugabe," they told me. Already there were reports of attacks on opposition supporters in the rural constituencies, a taste of the violence to come.



From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 19 April 2008 05:36 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great deal of time is right. Here's a old profile from another 'conservative' source:

http://www.newint.org/issue324/worldbeaters.htm


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 20 April 2008 02:54 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
Also that by resorting to violence to overthrow Mugabe, Zimbabweans will merely perpetuate the cycle of totalitarianism.
I never said violence. The MDC can't even organize a peaceful protest or convince people to participate in a "stayaway" from work.

From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 April 2008 05:18 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
None of Rhodesia's former colonizers nor the American CIA, nor the multinational mining companies kicked out of Zimbabwe recently are concerned with human rights abuses in any country. And I think the rich white land barons who stand to lose everything their forebears have stolen over the years would prefer a change of government. Hell, we need a change of government in Canada after a succession of phony majority dictatorships and same two old line autocratic parties sharing power in Ottawa.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 20 April 2008 06:20 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since when are you concerned about human rights abuses in any country? Given how you keep defending mass murderers like Stalin and Mugabe?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 April 2008 06:37 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Since when are you concerned about human rights abuses in any country? Given how you keep defending mass murderers like Stalin and Mugabe?

No offense, but what I sometimes do is defend the truth from people like you.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 20 April 2008 06:51 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you're trying to deny that Stalin and Mugabe are murderers, that isn't what you call truth - it's called a lie on a par with trying to deny that the holocaust ever took place.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 20 April 2008 07:41 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
If you're trying to deny that Stalin and Mugabe are murderers, that isn't what you call truth - it's called a lie on a par with trying to deny that the holocaust ever took place.

I don't know why I am falling for this yet again Of course they're murderers. So is every American president and British prime minister there ever has been, and under much less threatening circumstances. Nonetheless, that does not excuse either Stalin or Mugabe - I hold them to higher standards than I do American presidents. (It shouldn't be necessary for me to say that neither man meets those standards but I suspect it is: "They don't meet those standards".)

ETA: I realize this was addressed to Fidel but it's such a frequent accusation I felt myself unable to resist replying.

[ 20 April 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 20 April 2008 07:45 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
RosaL, is it really necessary to do such a mea culpa in the face of McCarthyite provocation? Can't you just ignore him when he flips out? He'll climb down off the ceiling (somewhat) if you just give him some time.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
RosaL
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posted 20 April 2008 07:50 PM      Profile for RosaL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
RosaL, is it really necessary to do such a mea culpa in the face of McCarthyite provocation? Can't you just ignore him when he flips out? He'll climb down off the ceiling (somewhat) if you just give him some time.

It wasn't meant as a mea culpa. I had hoped my remarks about American presidents were sufficiently offensive to offset that! But you're probably right. I should have let it go ....


From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 April 2008 08:08 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
If you're trying to deny that Stalin and Mugabe are murderers, that isn't what you call truth - it's called a lie on a par with trying to deny that the holocaust ever took place.

Of course they committed crimes against humanity. Stalin was a ruthless mofo in a time when western democracies sat idly by while fascism swept over Europe.

Hitler and Franco and Chiang Kai-shek were also mass murderers. Yes, Stalin was a ruthless motherfucker. And hundreds of millions survived the Nazis and Kuomintang's attempt to enslave the world on behalf of a corporate and bankster elite because "father Stalin" was as ruthless a mofo as what he was. sieg heil! Seig Heil! SEIG HEIL!!!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 22 April 2008 10:51 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As for Congo, there was finally news.
Some penises have apparently been stolen.

Even though this is rather more relevant.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 22 April 2008 11:09 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
As for Congo, there was finally news.
Some penises have apparently been stolen.

Hmm. In Haiti, the U.S.-backed Duvalier's dreaded ton=ton macoutes(secret police) sometimes threatened peasants with live burials and "zombification" as punishment for stepping out of line, and sometimes just to maintain an overall sense of terror over the people.

quote:
Even though this is rather more relevant.

quote:
On January 23, 2008, after weeks of talks, the Congolese government signed a peace agreement in Goma, North Kivu, with 22 armed groups committing all parties to an immediate ceasefire and disengagement of forces from frontline positions. Yet since the signing, scores of civilians have been killed, hundreds of women and girls raped, and many more children recruited into armed service, adding to the extraordinarily high number of civilians who have already endured such crimes over the past decade.

An estimated 1.1 million people are displaced in North and South Kivu provinces, of which 550,000 fled from the fighting since 2007. Malnutrition, cholera, malaria, and other preventable diseases are taking their lives at an alarming rate[/qb]


They need socialism, Doug. Certain influential forces have spent a lot of time, money and effort since 1960 to make sure it doesn't happen. Thanks for paying attention to this tragedy for us.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 23 April 2008 05:25 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here'sa new thread. I guess that is Zim 6.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged

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