A special meeting about Dallas County traffic tickets turned tense and bizarre this afternoon.

County commissioners were discussing problems with the central collections office that is used to process traffic ticket payments and handle other paperwork normally done by the JP Courts.

Commissioner Kenneth Mayfield, who is white, said it seemed that central collections "has become a black hole" because paperwork reportedly has become lost in the office.

Commissioner John Wiley Price, who is black, interrupted him with a loud "Excuse me!" He then corrected his colleague, saying the office has become a "white hole."

That prompted Judge Thomas Jones, who is black, to demand an apology from Mayfield for his racially insensitive analogy.

Mayfield shot back that it was a figure of speech and a science term.

What is the point of this thread? And if you're sincerely looking for a question to your answer, why didn't you post this in the anti-racism forum?

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
And if you're sincerely looking for a question to your answer, why didn't you post this in the anti-racism forum?

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quote:

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
I suppose the scientific term for a "black hole" is "singularity" but that just doesn't have the same je-ne-sais-quoi.

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"Yet we can't over-focus on language because there are issues on the ground that are far more pressing in terms of urgency, like the racialization of poverty and systemic violence against POC."

Okay, now that that's over with....

Ah the noble tachyon, the duct tape of the future, whether beams, fields, or inverse, a quick sweep can fix every situation.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]

Okay, but seriously...RationalThought, here's something to think about, and I write this to you with much respect:

You started a thread with an article that is clearly about a difficult situation that happened around race at a council meeting in the southern United States. You asked a question that is specifically about racism.

But you don't want to go near the anti-racism forum.

Now, not wanting to go near the anti-racism forum isn't so bad in and of itself. I've been reading it voraciously but not posting much either, mostly because I'm trying to listen and learn and figure my shit out and not interfere there so much.

But you know, if you choose that option, which I think is valid (BCG can correct me if I'm wrong about that ), then to me, that doesn't mean going into some other forum and taking the race discussion to a "safe place for whites".

If you are genuinely posing this question in the thread title, then it seems to me that the best place to pose it, if you really want a real answer and you're not just posing it as a rhetorical invitation to ridicule "PC language", is in the space where people are explicitly invited to discuss this issue and others from an anti-racist perspective.

Posing it here, and then labelling and dismissing the space (and presumably the people who are mostly posting in it) that people are trying to build into a place for anti-racist discussion as "dysfunctional" doesn't seem to me like the actions of someone who genuinely wants a real answer to the question. It sounds to me like you already think you know the answer to the question and you're posting it here to try to get like-minded people to ridicule the very idea that the term "black hole" might offend anyone.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

"Blacklegs" for scabs also has nothing to do with race.

However the Italian term for strikebreakers is racial, or rather ethnic in origin - "crumiri" - referring to a Berber people in Tunisia. Ironically, that use of the term was adopted from the French, and the strikebreakers called "Kroumirs" were actually ... Italians.

But absolutely nobody in Italy thinks of the origin any more, and I've heard trade-unionists of Maghrebi origin use it.

Expressions such as black hole or the more positive in the black are not racist, UNLESS they are being used to make a lame pun at the expense of a person of colour. Idem niggardly.

I tend to avoid the antiracist forum as well, because I don't really share that orientation for antiracist activism - I don't see any point in shaming people - it is getting them involved in struggles alongside people of other races and ethnicities that can really make their consciousness evolve.

For some reason that approach to antiracism developed in the US in the "postmodernist" period.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: lagatta ]

quote:

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
... how terms like "black market" "pot calling the kettle black" and "black listed" were considered offensive...

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I don't know if that's a discussion that's already been dealt with in anti-racism discourse, and exhausted on Babble. By posters' responses, I'm guessing that it has. But obviously in the outside world, these issues still crop up, and create confusion for people. We could get into so many examples of expressions using colour metaphors. ETA: as Lagatta notes.

A black hole is known as such as that the gravitational pull is so great even light can't escape so it is a 'black' hole. Black as in darkeness, the absense of light.

When I think of the phrase "pot calling the kettle" I picture cast iron, which is traditionally black in colour - and is an expression I use a lot.

I once read or heard that the game of chess was considered rascist in that white always got to go first. So in our house we'd just take turns.

But in reality these discussions can be distracting from the more indepth disucssions needed around race and racisism.

But yet in the right context, can be offensive to people.

I know I ask people not to use "rule of thumb" and was absolutely stunned to hear a woman in her 50's refer to organization's use of all avaliable grants as: "having shot the wad all at once" in general convesation. The woman sitting across from me burst into giggles when she saw the expression on my face.

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Expressions such as black hole or the more positive in the black are not racist, UNLESS they are being used to make a lame pun at the expense of a person of colour. Idem niggardly.

---

Not being a POC, I would tend to agree with this, however, it does leave open a nebulous area of interpretation, depending on the context. Hypothetically, in the situation described in the OP, the office workers could have all been black, and the white county commissioner could have used that term in a deliberately racist way.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Oh lordy. Who cares? I mean about this story. Seriously, what are we supposed to respond to this? Are we all supposed to tut-tut about how the world is becoming so "politically correct"?

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90% of the threads started on babble, including many by you and me, are started for the specific purpose of "tut-tutting" about the stupid and/or oppressive behaviour of others.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

You started a thread with an article that is clearly about a difficult situation that happened around race at a council meeting in the southern United States. You asked a question that is specifically about racism.

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Actually the question is the title of the article. Good question to be sure but I didn't ask it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

But you don't want to go near the anti-racism forum.

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I mean, really. I think a lot of us will read this story and our first reaction will be, "But wait, 'black hole' isn't referring to race - it's a scientific term for something that happens in space. What's wrong with that guy anyhow?"

Is this really what progressive space is for? To reduce race relations to an exercise in making fun of a person of colour for making a questionable call on excluding language?

quote:

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
Naw, no real desire to be shat all over. I see what goes on in there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
I think it's a grey area.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
Naw, no real desire to be shat all over. I see what goes on in there.

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Yeah, I got that from your last post. You don't need to keep telling me. I get that you don't like the anti-racism forum.

I guess my question is, if you don't want to know what the people of colour and white people who are trying to think through anti-racist ideas on babble think on questions and issues of racism, then why are you asking a question about racism here?

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

The news report above is merely a recording of a single event. It leaves one with no taste for the human element and dynamics of what has been taking place and what are the relationships in that office.

We all know in every office there is politics, we know there are conflicting personalities, interests, and agendas.

So to report that one man said "this place has become a black hole," the superficiality of reporting makes it appear an innocent statement without tone, or emphasis, or without any understanding of the work atmosphere and the people involved.

For all we know the worker responded in the way he did because he knew exactly what was being implied.

quote:

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
I thought it was clear that the "question" was actually the title of the article. It's not "my" question.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:

What's not clear is why you posted it here if you're not interested in having a discussion about racism from an anti-racist perspective.

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I think I'm not being clear. What did you expect to get out of this thread? What is your purpose of posting this thread anywhere on babble at all, if you don't want to have a discussion about it from an anti-racist point of view with babblers who are interested in discussing issues of racism?

quote:

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
Because I see what goes on in the A.R.F. and don't want to post there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RationalThought:
Everyone shits over everyone else. No thanks.

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quote:

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It is not our differences which separate us but our reluctance to recognize those differences and to deal effectively with the distortions that have resulted from the ignoring and misnaming of those differences.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
News reports are superficial. Generally, they offer a glimpse at a moment in time without any context, insight, or deeper understanding.

The news report above is merely a recording of a single event. It leaves one with no taste for the human element and dynamics of what has been taking place and what are the relationships in that office.

We all know in every office there is politics, we know there are conflicting personalities, interests, and agendas.

So to report that one man said "this place has become a black hole," the superficiality of reporting makes it appear an innocent statement without tone, or emphasis, or without any understanding of the work atmosphere and the people involved.

For all we know the worker responded in the way he did because he knew exactly what was being implied.

And again, maybe it was all perfectly innocent.

---

I know this can play a lot into how language is taken and perceived. It matters.

I don't think the phrase itself is inherently offensive. It has a basic meaning in reference to astronomy. That's not to say though that people don't take metaphors like and use them in a 'read between the lines' sort of way. So what is being said 'officially' is not what is actually 'unofficially' being said. We see this happening all of the time on this vary board where words are used beyond there basic meaning, to say something else. I say as a leftie, '.... you're a conservative' in a debate and it can take on a different meaning then if a rightie says the exact same words. The context, relationship and the dynamic of the conversation matters in terms of understanding what is actually being said.

From this brief telling there is no way to really make such a determination. We don't know if there is a history between these people, we don't know if perhaps the person that said it has a history of saying offensive things at other times or has a general attitude against 'black' people that would lead to this being perceived as just another incident of an ongoing pattern whether it was intended or not with this specific uttering.

Perhaps the people who got offended have heard or seen the phrase or a similar one being used in an offensive way before...thusly for them it is offensive. Perhaps in some realms the metaphor has changed from it's original common use into this other meaning. Metaphors do tend to do that over time and within different sorts of groups.
If this is the case it makes both parties right and wrong at the same time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
But it is so large ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

Please don't call the anti-racism forum the A.R.F.

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Are acronyms not allowed? And no, arf is not synonymous with woof...

Wiki arf

That is not really the point. Some people, and in fact the moderator asked, at an earlier point not to use the acronym "ARF", because he did not like the association with dog barking, and regardless if "ARF" might have other associations and meaning, one of them is an association with barking dogs.

So, that should really be enough, no? Is it so important to you?

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I think I'm not being clear. What did you expect to get out of this thread? What is your purpose of posting this thread anywhere on babble at all, if you don't want to have a discussion about it from an anti-racist point of view with babblers who are interested in discussing issues of racism?

What was your purpose in posting this thread, if not to have a discussion about it from an anti-racist point of view? What points of view were you hoping to encourage?

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Do you really want the AR forum to be a place where patently absurd statements based solely on ignorance of science are subjected to rigorous anti-racist critique? Do you really want to see threads there entitled, "Is 'pinhead' a racist epithet?" or "Should the Yellow River be renamed?"

I can see why it may be conflated with the more modern meaning, since both are places where you go, and you do not get out, but I think a careful reading of literature will reveal that the metaphor "Black Hole" appears in coloquial usage before its association with celestial phenomena, and is a direct reference to the famous imperial prison.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
The question is obviously rhetorical, since the answer is obviously "no". Moreover, it was not being asked by the babbler who posted it, but by the blogger he was quoting. It was not an invitation for serious analytical discussion. The response of babblers in this thread has certainly borne that out.

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Well, thank you for stating explicitly the point I was trying to make throughout this thread.

So the way you understood the motive behind this thread was the same as I did - that the purpose of this thread was not to discuss excluding language, nor was it a genuine search for information about race relations, but rather a thread in which babblers, mostly white people, are invited to mock and denounce the black guy in the story who took exception to the term in question.

Is that a good use of progressive space? Is this a good way to make people of colour feel more welcome on babble?

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Do I have to stop mocking Barack Obama for fear of alienating people of colour?

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Do I have to stop mocking Barack Obama for fear of alienating people of colour?

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You can PM me whenever you feel like mocking Obama, and I'll mock him by proxy. That way, we only burn one of us.

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Are we only allowed to mock stupid white people now?

Do I have to stop mocking Barack Obama for fear of alienating people of colour?

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

---

One of the things about "ignorance" is that it often results in arrogant assertions of truth from authority, which when examined turn into a kind of self-mockery.

In anycase, the term "Black Hole" as a metaphor has very clear roots in British Imperial history:

quote:

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It is interesting to consider the portrayal of the Black Hole through British history as a reflection of our evolving attitudes to colonialism. An event which most agreed was a tragic accident assumed a prominence in the history of British India because, as Dalley says, 'it presents to the British nation a rank of heroes.' In the early 20th century Curzon created a huge, prominent memorial to be constructed to the victims because he recognised the tale as being of 'great importance to the Imperial spirit'. However, the monument to the victims in the centre of Calcutta became such a focus for nationalist discontent that it had to be moved. The Black Hole became a common cliché that could be applied to a myriad of events - 'the phrase passed itself into the everyday use of people who had no idea of what happened'. It is still in use today (for example, Dalley cites a critic comparing the Last Night of the Proms to the Black Hole).

---

The Black Hole: Money, Myth and Empire

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
Kissinger and Rice. Fine to attack them, mock them, hate them, drag them over hot coals. But not to make snide anti-semitic or racist comments in the process.

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Frankly, I am not surised that two educated black men would know this, and their white counter-part would think he was talking about astronomy, if that is not just a cover story. Read, in its traditional meaning, the usage could easily be interpretted to mean a place where white people are making a brave last stand against the barbarous infidels of colour.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Clearly, the term "Black Hole" has racist roots, since culturally and historically the possibly mythological incident was used to exmplify the "barbarity" of Bangladeshis defending themselves from the British Empire.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:

And the word nice originally means stupid, I can still use it to describe acts of generosity without any concern for offending those with lower IQs.

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Exactly the ignorance of educated white people in the area of imperial history is the issue. It seems that some educated people of colour are a little bit more aware of the actual traditional usage of the term and its implications.

But some white people do not, assume that they do know what it means, and use this as an opportunity to mock black people because they think the black people are ignorant of contemporary physics, which is precisely what is being done in the article linked to in the OP.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Exactly the ignorance of educated white people in the area of imperial history is the issue. It seems that some educated people of colour are a little bit more aware of the actual traditional usage of the word and its implications.

But some white people do not, assume that they do know what it means, and use this as an opportunity to mock black people because they think the black people are ignorant of contemporary physics, which is precisely what is being done in the article linked to in the OP.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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I suppose the scientific term for a "black hole" is "singularity" but that just doesn't have the same je-ne-sais-quoi.

---

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
The term "black hole" existed long before there ever was a British Empire. It began when a cave-person sought to describe a fissure in a rock cave where light did not penetrate.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:
I remember talking about metaphor in a communications class especially around communicating with different cultures and languages and it was actually recommended that in cases where the groups are diverse that it actually be avoided as much as possible because of different perceptions and understandings and how they can lead to communication break downs.

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Does that admonition apply to mixed metaphors as well? If someone asks me a question with an obvious answer, I will occasionally respond: “Does the Pope shit in the woods?” And, frankly, I don’t really care if the query came from a Catholic or not.

ETA: ...or a bear, for that matter.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Now going back to the original story, are we 100% sure that the offending party was not indirectly referring to the traditional meaning, as well, because the traditional meaning and usage of the phrase Black Hole, is: "A incident where a few 'brave' white soldiers conducted a last stand against overwhellming odds against people of colour, and were then subjected to barbaric treatement of the heathen hordes," more or less.

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The "offending" party, to use your term, said it was "a figure of speech" and a "science term". He did not seek to refer to what you describe as "the traditional meaning" of the phrase.

quote:

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Commissioner Kenneth Mayfield, who is white, said it seemed that central collections "has become a black hole" because paperwork reportedly has become lost in the office.

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The respondent, then quipped:

quote:

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"Excuse me!" He then corrected his colleague, saying the office has become a "white hole."

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After being challenged, the offending party said he was reffering to celestial phenomena.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
So you get to define for us the "traditional" meaning of black hole? I believe there are earlier "traditions" for the use of that phrase, as I have indicated above.

The "offending" party, to use your term, said it was "a figure of speech" and a "science term". He did not seek to refer to what you describe as "the traditional meaning" of the phrase.

The offended party maintained that the central collections office had become a "white hole". In astrophysics, a white hole is the theoretical time reversal of a black hole. So, was this a debate over astrophysics, or do you have a theory about the "traditional" meaning of "white hole" you'd like to share with us?

---

quote:

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Commissioner Kenneth Mayfield, who is white, said it seemed that central collections "has become a black hole" because paperwork reportedly has become lost in the office.

Commissioner John Wiley Price, who is black, interrupted him with a loud "Excuse me!" He then corrected his colleague, saying the office has become a "white hole."

That prompted Judge Thomas Jones, who is black, to demand an apology from Mayfield for his racially insensitive analogy.

Mayfield shot back that it was a figure of speech and a science term. A black hole, according to Webster's, is perhaps "the invisible remains of a collapsed star, with an intense gravitational field from which neither light nor matter can escape."

---

Why do you assume that the reference to celestial phenomena is not a cover story, since it happened after he was challenged on the statement.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

Does that admonition apply to mixed metaphors as well? If someone asks me a question with an obvious answer, I will occasionally respond: “Does the Pope shit in the woods?” And, frankly, I don’t really care if the query came from a Catholic or not.

ETA: ...or a bear, for that matter.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Sven

---

I wouldn't state it as being an admonition. It was more a statement or recognition about being aware of how language is communicated and received. Metaphors tend to be based on a common understanding which is largely culturally based and depend on that commonality for people to get their meaning. If that foundation isn't there then it's open to different interpretations. Most people here would understand what 'would the pope shit in the woods' means as a phrase and likely only the most die hard of Catholics would take any offence because it's actual meaning has little to do with a straight understanding of the actual words. It means something a long the lines of, 'well duh, or of course it does it's totally obvious' with a bit of light mocking thrown in.

If you were to say that though to someone who doesn't know didn't know about the Pope, or is aware the colloquial meaning of the phrase they would miss the point. In trying to understand that response they might focus on what exactly 'the pope' is or on the word 'shit' which is a word that has a numerous other meanings beside pooping in order to figure it out.

It exmplified how "...a few 'brave' white soldiers conducted a last stand against overwhellming odds against people of colour, and were then subjected to barbaric treatement of the heathen hordes."

It is, simply put, an old racist propoganda trope of the British Empire.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

When challenged, he immediately said it was a figure of speech and a science term.

There is absolutely zero evidence in the reports we have that anybody present on that occasion, white or black, alluded to what you call "the" traditional meaning.

Regardless, it is incumbent upon Mayfield to apologize, because it is his ignorance of the traditional meaning of the phrase, which is the cause of the offence. If I say something which is misinterpreted, and can clearly be shown to have offensive connotations, it is I who apologize for my ignorance.

Why are you asserting that it is the white guys understanding of the metaphor, which takes precedence?

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:
Now going back to the original story, are we 100% sure that the offending party was not indirectly referring to the traditional meaning, as well, because the traditional meaning and usage of the phrase Black Hole, is: "A incident where a few 'brave' white soldiers conducted a last stand against overwhellming odds against people of colour, and were then subjected to barbaric treatement of the heathen hordes," more or less.

---

I am 100% sure that neither party was referring to that meaning of the term! The portion of the population that has even heard of such an event or such a meaning for this term must be exceedingly small. You have to have a very, very big sample before it even showed up.

ETA: I agree, though, that the expression could have been used - and understood - in the way ElizaQ suggested.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

The assumption here, is ominous. We white people here don't make these associations, so therefore no one elsed does. Our paradigm is dominant in the interpretation of the phrase, and moreso, even when no one here can conclusively prove that most people of colour, do not associate the phrase otherwise, we, out-of-the-blue, assert that people of colour must be as ignoramt of our imperial history as we are, and understand this phrase according to the dominant narrative, that has every reason to forget its own history.

People of colour, on the other hand, have every reason to remember the history.

Why do you make this assertion RosaL, when here we have clear proof that these two black men immediatly identified the phrase as having racist connotations?

People should be asking themselves why they they made those associations, and studying the history and arguements made quite cogently, and numerously, in anti-racist discourse that the phrase has clear racist connontation, rather than popping off, instantly based on the assumption that they are stupid men who don't understand astrophysics.

I rather thought the quip, "this is a white hole" was pretty funny, myself. Probably had Mayfield just gone along with the joke (as many people of colour do when confronted with such jokes made by white people) the judge would have just shrugged it off. But Mayfield panicked and made an issue of it, so the judge intervened, taking the issue seriously.

BTW, Rosa, I have a grade 10 education, and I know about the Black Hole of Calcutta.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Aside from that, M. Spector has made some excellent points. I see no reason to repeat them.

(And it's not my imperial history.)

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:
We know nothing of the context, nor do we know if this was not the continuance of various sly quasi-racist statements made by the offending party.

---

quote:

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Regardless, it is incumbent upon Mayfield to apologize, because it is his ignorance of the traditional meaning of the phrase, which is the cause of the offence.

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ETA: I can just as easily speculate that it was the offendee's ignorance of the modern meaning of the phrase that caused him to take offence. I choose not to indulge in idle speculation, however.

quote:

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If I say something which is misinterpreted, and can clearly be shown to have offensive connotations, it is I who apologize for my ignorance.

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quote:

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Why are you asserting that it is the white guys understanding of the metaphor, which takes precedence?

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The only evidence in the story before us is that the metaphor was a figure of speech and a science term. I have no reason to disagree with that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

Also the whole nature of the point of writing this news article was simply to make fun and mock the dumb 'black' guys and I'm not going to buy into that game. Funny ha ha...look at the overly sensitive guys and look look political correctness run amok blah blah. How silly.

To me that's where the whole aspect of structuralized racism comes into play. Is the article racist? No not overtly but the point for me at least that because of the way I know media works, because I know of how the structuralized racial stuff can play into it. I have know way of trusting that it's being relayed truthfully, with context and is 'true' just on face value. If racism or structuralized racism wasn't an issue then yes, in my mind at least I could trust it more. That's simply not reality though.

This doesn't have anything to do with me being afraid or too PC to make comments about people who do or say dumb things whether POC or not, but recognizing that it is more likely for things like this to be conveyed in ways that favour the dominant and take that into consideration with everything I read or hear. So yes in this regard I do give POC the benefit of the doubt when I read something like this and won't jump to immediate conclusions especially with so little contextual information to go on unless I'm able to find out more.

In my own life I've seen time and time again how the media or others portray words and events that have something to do with POC or in this case mainly FN's where I know for a fact it's scued, without context and not at all the point that was actually intended to be made. Sometimes I think it's deliberate or unconscious bias is playing into it or sometimes it's simply because who ever is writing it just doesn't get it overall. If it happens here then I can't help but think that that would more then likely be the case there.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

There STILL might have been reasons why that person might have found it offensive. Maybe the offended party has dealt with a lot of coded slurs and thought in the moment that he was hearing one at that moment, and reacted to it. Maybe he was triggered. Maybe he had a history with these people where there was a lot of subversive racism. Or maybe there's a history, in that department, of mistakes being blamed on the black employees, and this was a mistake by a white person, so the black guy decided to make a pun, and say it didn't fall into a "black hole" this time, but a "white hole".

Or maybe that didn't happen, but he's lived his whole life dealing with racism both blatant and subtle, and every once in a while, he gets triggered by something that was totally innocent on the part of the other person. Maybe he mistook the person's figure of speech because he's dealt with a lot of subtle and coded racist speech in the past.

Is it really progressive to jump all over racialized people when they react in such a manner, or if they make a mistake about someone's intent? What does this prove? That the black guy is so insensitive and it just goes to show you how politically correct our times are?

What's the moral of this story? What is newsworthy about this, and what are we supposed to take out of it? The way the blog posting is written and the way it's been presented to us on babble seems to be that we're supposed to look at this guy with derision. Not only that, but we're supposed to consider him stupid.

Why is he stupid? Do intelligent people never make mistakes? Are we even sure he DID make a mistake? Do we know anything about this guy's personal history, or his interpersonal history with these people, well enough to know whether or not he was actually dealing with coded slurs or not?

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Precedence over what? Your fanciful speculations?

And yet, given our total ignorance of anything that wasn't mentioned in the original source we have available, we should begin to construct fanciful scenarios of what might have happened before, instead of sticking to the known facts, in order to come to any possible conclusion other than the obvious one.

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Sorry Spector... "known facts" are constructed in the source article, and are completely open to bias, and exclusion of facts that do not fit the bias. Or are you now going to suggest that the media does not bias stories based on prejudice and interest?

You want for me now to construct my view of what happened in Soviet Russia by using USA Today as the primary source?

I am suprised that it should bother you that I would introduce other "known facts" from other sources, and demand, instead, that we rely on 150 words of text from a some hack daily in Texas.

My conjecture, just serves to propose reasonable ways that the information we have can be interpreted, other than the one being proposed by the article referenced in the OP, which is basicly that these two professional, educated, black guys are stupid. My personal instinct when I see this kind of assumption in play, is to find reasonable explanations for the behaviour, because, in fact, assuming that a Judge and a Commissioner are dumb, is dumb.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
My conjecture, just serves to propose reasonable ways that the information we have can be interpreted, other than the one being proposed, which is basicly that these two professional, educated, black guys are stupid.

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Originally posted by RationalThought:

That prompted Judge Thomas Jones, who is black, to demand an apology from Mayfield for his racially insensitive analogy.

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Everyone is missing the point.

In Texas, judges sentence people to death - disproportionately poor and black people. The lucky ones are sent to war abroad.

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Originally posted by unionist:

Everyone is missing the point.

In Texas, judges sentence people to death - disproportionately poor and black people. The lucky ones are sent to war abroad.

These people are living in a society which exudes racism, classism, misogyny and misanthropy from every pore. No wonder every comment is taken as an attack and an insult. It probably is.

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Absolutely. I can not imagine myself walking into a professional situation in front of black people and blurting out... "this place is a Black Hole," in Canada, let alone texas. The idea that it is a casual remark, is hard to believe.

This guys then retorts: "No this place is a white hole," which is actually a pretty sharp comment, and Mayfield, and some Babblers get all hoighty-toighty... I mean what is the matter guys... "can't take a joke?"

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Is it really progressive to jump all over racialized people when they react in such a manner, or if they make a mistake about someone's intent?

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But has anyone done that in this thread? I don't think they have.

That said, I have no idea why this thread was started. It seems like an attempt to "stir the pot", if that isn't an offensive expression. The original article is a standard trope on right-wing blogs: see how stupid political correctness is. Mind you, they have a point

(NO, I am not talking about this particular incident. I am not saying the guy who protested was stupid. And frankly I don't understand black holes and I don't think I'm stupid either.)

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

I think how Michelle sums it up is worth repeating, since subsequent posts chose to completely ignore it.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[QB]Let's pretend that we know for sure that the speaker MEANT black hole as in the astronomy term. Further, let's pretend that the offended party didn't know about the Black Hole of Calcutta and knows the scientific meaning of black hole and didn't come up with any alternative meanings for it.

There STILL might have been reasons why that person might have found it offensive. Maybe the offended party has dealt with a lot of coded slurs and thought in the moment that he was hearing one at that moment, and reacted to it. Maybe he was triggered. Maybe he had a history with these people where there was a lot of subversive racism. Or maybe there's a history, in that department, of mistakes being blamed on the black employees, and this was a mistake by a white person, so the black guy decided to make a pun, and say it didn't fall into a "black hole" this time, but a "white hole".

Or maybe that didn't happen, but he's lived his whole life dealing with racism both blatant and subtle, and every once in a while, he gets triggered by something that was totally innocent on the part of the other person. Maybe he mistook the person's figure of speech because he's dealt with a lot of subtle and coded racist speech in the past.

Is it really progressive to jump all over racialized people when they react in such a manner, or if they make a mistake about someone's intent? What does this prove? That the black guy is so insensitive and it just goes to show you how politically correct our times are? ....

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To that I would only say that RT is a new poster, and maybe on some level did want to stir up some trouble, and not to excuse this behaviour, but how many of us can say we have never started provocative threads?

Only administrators or moderators may perform this action.

[ 11 July 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by jas:
I don't know what the hell Cueball is on about. To assume that racialized people, and moreover that they are "educated" racialized people (and uh, sorry, but where does he get THIS information? And he accuses others here of making assumptions??) and that because htey are educated racialized people they therefore will automatically understand that the term "a black hole" refers to The Calcutta Black Hole is insulting and absurd. I think this whole Cueball intervention is his way of making a mockery of the topic or the OP, but not in a terribly effective way.

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If you don't know what I am on about then why don't you read the links I provided? There is a ton of analysis of the origin of this term. Just because you didn't take the courses where this material is covered, does not mean that other people didn't. Here are some more:

Even the Online Etymology dictionary acknowledges a link between the evocative term and its origins:

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black hole in astrophysics is from 1968, probably with awareness of Black Hole of Calcutta, incident of 1756 in which 146 Europeans were locked up overnight in punishment cell of barracks at Ft. William, Calcutta, and all but 23 perished.

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Another, a book review.British Raj’s myth of the ‘Black Hole’:

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The tragedy, in the words of Nirad Chaudhuri, “threw a moral halo over the British conquest of India”. For generations of British (and Indian, for that matter) school-children, the story of the Black Hole epitomised the inhumanity of Indians. If Rudyard Kipling’s Gunga Din personified loyalty, the Black Hole symbolised the worst of the duplicitous Orient.

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This reviewer, quite astonishingly, accepts the mythological nature of the incident, but then goes on to re-assert the imperial ethos:

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This book is written without the post-colonial angst that prevails among today’s Britons. The story of the early East India Company was simultaneously funny, noble and tragic. That such a band of individuals could actually build one of the greatest empires is a tribute to their sense of enterprise. They richly deserved the right to create and live off the Black Hole mythology.

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Ha!

And where did you "get THIS information" that I ignored Michelle's submission? I most certainly did not. I thought it was excelent and echoed some of my own thoughts, and felt no reason to comment. It stands well enough on its own.

Furthermore I have definitively answered the question in the thread title: Yes, definitely the term "black hole" could easily be construed to have racially charged connotations, and in fact one of its known meanings is specifically racist complete with imperialist baggage, and racist meta-associations about the perfidy of the uncivilized non-Europeans. It is an "remember the Alamo" story. Much recent scholarship believes it is mythological in origin as well, in which case it is essentially a "blood libel". Moreso, there is every reason to believe that the term "black hole" was given its astronomical defintion with the knowledge of the historical reference, which was current and colloquial within the generation of John Wheeler (Lord Curzon erected his famous monument to the "vicitms" only 10 years before Wheeler was born), the physicist who gave the term its astronomical definition -- Both are places where nothing escapes.

This stands, regardless wether or not any parties in this dispute were aware of these facts or not. Myself, I have not made any assumptions, I have proposed a possible alternate reading of this story, cut free of the presumption that the people who made this objection can't possibly know something that you do not.

"Is "black hole" a racially insensitive term?" The answer is yes, it could definitely be construed as such, especially in the phrase, this place "has become a black hole." Now you know.

Isn't that interesting?

[ 12 July 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]