quote:

---

The new chairman of the University of Washington's Women Studies Department tried to turn down the job.

David Allen agrees with critics of his appointment: The job should have gone to a woman.

"People have very good reasons for having strong feelings about my having this job," Allen said as he began his first quarter as chairman.

Allen's past experience leading another department, his connection to the Women Studies Department as a teacher and admiration for his work among the students and faculty all made him the search committee's first choice within a small pool of qualified candidates, said David Hodge, dean of the College of Arts and Sciences.

---

I'm surprised this sort of thing hasn't happened earlier, although perhaps I've just not heard of it.

quote:

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Originally posted by aRoused:

To try and rerail the thread, does anyone have any reactions? Given that no-one concerned seems to have anything bad to say about the man himself, I'm inclined to note the irony, applaud his goal of ensuring it never happens again, and wonder whether some day this sort of thing won't be seen as a problem by anyone.

---

Perhaps the wost dept. at UW is too small. While it's unfortunate that the position was not filled by a woman, that points more to an instutitional problem (not enough women professors, or profs who want chairs) than to a problem in this particular hiring decision. It sounds to me like this was the best choice at the time, but maybe exposes some institutional weaknesses in terms of attracting women professors and involving them in leadership roles.

So I wouldn't get up in arms about this particular appointment, but I would use the opportunity to take a closer look at the broader institutional issues. Maybe see what can be done in this guy's 5 year term to improve things.

I found this quote informative:

quote:

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Robyn Wiegman, who runs the department at Duke University, said the issue is not Allen's appointment but the lack of qualified women who want such administrative jobs.

"In general, leadership succession is a major problem in the field," she said.

---

[ 19 November 2005: Message edited by: vmichel ]

quote:

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Originally posted by vmichel:

Perhaps the wost dept. at UW is too small. While it's unfortunate that there were not any women candidates, that points more to an instutitional problem (not enough women professors) than to a problem in this particular hiring decision.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
This man should no more be a head of women's studies than a white man should be head of Native studies, or a straight man the head of LGBT studies. Okay I've said it.

---

But yes, this is one of those areas were there should be possible to have someone from that identity group (i.e. 50% of the population).

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
This man should no more be a head of women's studies than a white man should be head of Native studies, or a straight man the head of LGBT studies.

---

[ 19 November 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

quote:

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his connection to the Women Studies Department as a teacher

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We can wonder, of course, if anyone had any objections to him TEACHING in the department before he became head.

quote:

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Indeed. This seems to cut to the heart of the matter. Even assuming that it is the case that he was the only credible candidate available...why was the most credible academic in a Women's Studies department male in the first place?

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At least he recognizes this as a problem.

Though it should be noted it's not uncommon for men to teach in the women's studies department, particularly in universities where the bulk of women's studies classes are actually crosslisted with other departments. Also, half the faculty in UofM's Native Studies department are white. Also, the Ojibway prof at AUC is on record as stating he can't actually speak conversational Ojibway.

quote:

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Even assuming that it is the case that he was the only credible candidate available...why was the most credible academic in a Women's Studies department male in the first place?

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Five professors in the department, three senior, two junior. Of the seniors, one is male, two female. Female 1 is lured to another department at a different university. Female 2 is the current Head. Female 2's term ends, the two junior members are too junior to take on the responsibility even if they wanted to (as they're both publishing and teaching like mad to get tenure and build their careers). Job falls to the only qualified and present person.

This is an extremely common situation in academic departments. Only the nature of the department's subject matter is making the gender of the professors an issue.

edit: I posed five as an example. Checking, there are nine 'senior' (in terms of time since PhD) and three 'junior' academics in the department. Of the nine senior academics, four are full professors and one is a professor emerita. Of the four full professors, two have external committments (one Vice Provost, one Dean) that would prevent them from taking the position. I submit that, internally, this guy really was the only person who could take over the job, bar giving it to someone at the grade of Associate Professor. Now, *I* wouldn't have a problem with an AP being my department Head (my current dep head only just got her PhD), but my guess is that UWash don't work that way and insists on full professorship.

VoD makes an excellent point: This is almost certainly a largely administrative position, with a lot of politicking and scrambling around in the muck of committee meetings trying to secure funding, balance the department budget, and really a load of headaches for precious little reward or recognition. I've seen just a bit of what the job entails in an archaeology department, and you couldn't pay me enough to take it on.

[ 20 November 2005: Message edited by: aRoused ]

quote:

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I look forward to the first Protestant Pope, soon.

---

Well into the 1980s, I should think, university departments of Middle Eastern studies in Britain and Canada were largely, sometimes entirely staffed by Brits who had studied in schools originally set up in Edwardian times to train colonial administrators; some of them had seen service in the Middle East during the war, picked up languages and some of various cultures, as would also have been true of a smaller number of American and Canadian officers.

No question that many of those men (pretty much all, I should think) became very learned scholars; but at its most egregious, that tradition also produced a Bernard Lewis.

Before the 1980s, though, I don't think it would have occurred to many people in Western universities to question the hiring of "the best" Persian scholar, eg, to do the job, even though his notions of the cultures he studied would have been thoroughly coloured by unquestioned colonialist assumptions. I haven't been in such a department lately, but am I right in thinking that the world has changed a lot since then, at least in Britain and Canada, even if Princeton still keeps Lewis on as an emeritus?

So those dinosaurs, however learned, were often culturally blinded to the very disciplines they taught, while that does not seem to be the case with David Allen at all, and all praise to him.

So then we turn to another analogy: Take Back the Night marches. It still takes a while even for deeply empathetic, pro-feminist men to grasp how deeply counter-productive their participation in those marches would be. Every time there is a march, a lot of hurt feelings need addressing.

Analogies like that may help to explain why women chafe at the thought of men in what appear to be leadership roles in their own discipline when women as a group have still made far too little progress towards full participation in any aspect of public life.

It's reassuring that Allen recognizes how unsatisfactory the situation is and how quickly it has to change. He's promising that there will be women candidates for the job next time and he has a record of ensuring that kind of succession in the past, so that is a good thing.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:
I look forward to the first Protestant Pope, soon.

---

An academic subject is not a religion or a political movement. Hence, it is a persons qualifications in the subject that matters, not e.g. the gender or sexual orientation.

There is, however, some fuzziness around the edges, as there always is when humans are involved in something. meades conjures with the UofM Native Studies department. Compare this to an Anthropology or Sociology department engaged entirely with studying First Nations, but composed (as is generally the case) of middle-class white scholars. How much of the problem is all in the name, when similar scholarship is being conducted?

quote:

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Was Bernard Lewis "well qualified" on the topic of Middle Eastern history? Was Edward Said?

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Skdadl, I have a book at home called A History Of The Arab Peoples, by Albert Hourani. Believe it or not, the cover features endorsements by BOTH Lewis and Said! Talk about playing both sides of the fence.

http://tinyurl.com/cm4kb

[ 20 November 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Perhaps their "disability" is not readily apparent? Hmmmm.... does that make it less of a "disability", somehow?

---

quote:

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some "invisible"
disabilities are not on the same level as say, quadriplegia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by white rabbit:
..
Wouldn't it be better to have a pro-feminist man in the position rather than a right-wing woman?
..

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Best would be someone with competence in the subject. Whether white/black, woman/man, right/left... who cares?

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Please define "qualifications in the subject."

Was Bernard Lewis "well qualified" on the topic of Middle Eastern history? Was Edward Said?

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What part of "qualifications in the subject" don't you understand? Academic qualifications, research competence, peer reviewed articles, published books/papers, etc etc.

quote:

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Originally posted by aRoused:

I didn't realize it was a competition...

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It's not a competition, I was reponding to Hephasition's question of whether an invisible disability is "less" than some other type of disability.

quote:

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Originally posted by white rabbit:

..
nor would a white person ever be considered qualified to serve as an
advisor to black students..

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That's a pretty racist statement, isn't it? (And hopefully it is not a true statement.)

quote:

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Originally posted by moderatsaklart:

That's a pretty racist statement, isn't it? (And hopefully it is not a true statement.)

Try this statement: "A black person will never be qualified as advisor to white students"

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quote:

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Originally posted by moderatsaklart:

That's a pretty racist statement, isn't it? (And hopefully it is not a true statement.)

Try this statement: "A black person will never be qualified as advisor to white students"

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Oh, dear. Moral equivalence, moral equivalence, such a naughty fallacy.

In North America, anyway, white persons (such as moi) do not have the experience of living all day every day racialized. Black persons do.

quote:

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Originally posted by moderatsaklart:

What part of "qualifications in the subject" don't you understand? Academic qualifications, research competence, peer reviewed articles, published books/papers, etc etc.

I would assume Bernard Lewis is very well qualified on the topic of ME history. Don't you? (You may disagree with him at times, but that does not make him unqualified, now does it?)

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moderats, I asked you to define what it meant to be well qualified. I assume that, yes, like most of the Colonel Blimps I met in ME departments in the sixties and seventies, Bernard Lewis had learned the languages of the cultures he (obviously) despises, and had also learned a lot of names and dates and places.

But any literate child can do that. In grade 11, I could rhyme off to you the full catastrophe of C19 English laws, the Corn laws, the repeal of the Corn laws, the Reform laws, the repeal of the Reform laws, et cetera et cetera et cetera ad nauseam. That is certainly one form of education, and it is not so difficult to commit sheer detail to memory.

To me, qualifications mean a little more than that, and demonstrable prejudice against a culture should affect our assessment of someone's credentials.

I am a student of language, so I am constantly on alert for, eg, people who overgeneralize. To most students of language, overgeneralization is just such an automatic indication of profound error, and I weep to tell you that Bernard Lewis is in the habit of overgeneralizing about what he thinks of as "civilizations."

Interestingly, Edward Said was not in that habit. Just about every thought he ever had, he then set about taking apart, strand by strand. For sure he knew the languages and the names and dates and places at least as well as the Colonel Blimps, like Bernard Lewis, but he knew more: he knew how to think honestly. And when he thought about the Middle East, or the whole rest of the world, he was not thinking of other peoples as the hostile Other, as Lewis clearly always has.

"Objective" assessments of scholarly qualifications are not, in the end, intellectually serious, although practical considerations force us to pretend that we can make them. The closest to objectivity we can come is to ask whose knowledge and whose systems can explain more of the the phenomena we observe?

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
a certain kind of outdated snobbery is incurable, leads inexorably to idiot overgeneralization, and probably causes flatulence.

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quote:

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nowhere would you find a non-native person "advising" native students

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quote:

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not would a white person ever be considered qualified to ...serve as head of any such departments that may exist.

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quote:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
As for the strawman argument that a good university discipline is rigourously academic, devoid of political agendas and therefore legitimate and a "hack" discipline that is "slanted politically", as Women's Studies is often portrayed, is therefore not a "real" discipline. How's about you check out what they teach at business school or Law school. Talk about political slanting. Sheesh.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
..social equality..

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Define 'social'.

quote:

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I'll say it again...you're an ideological conservative, moderats...

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A lie is a lie even if it's repeated over and over again.

I'm so much more progressive than you it ain't even funny. You're completely stuck ('conservative') in tired old ('reactionary') ways of collectivist/statist thinking. The future is bright and it's liberal...

quote:

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Originally posted by moderatsaklart:
I'm so much more progressive than you it ain't even funny. You're completely stuck ('conservative') in tired old ('reactionary') ways of collectivist/statist thinking. The future is bright and it's liberal...

---

Hitler's idea of "Jewish science", and the need to replace Jewish professors with Aryans, in order to teach Aryan students, should teach us
the dangers of imposing a biological qualification for teaching.

That said, I am willing to admit that it is extremely improbable that there are not twelve thousand women who know more about the academic topic of women, women's rights, women's history, than this professor likely does.

So, if it's a job that these women want, it would take a lot to convince me that, no, of all of them, he's the very best.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
..This is the same argument that says we progressives have to be tolerant of his intolerance!..

---

I'm very likely more tolerant than you are, buddy!

[ 20 November 2005: Message edited by: moderatsaklart ]

quote:

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Originally posted by moderatsaklart:
I'm very likely more tolerant than you are, buddy!

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quote:

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Originally posted by fern hill:
How 'bout this for an analogy: What if a teacher of some language, say English, didn't actually speak it? This teacher knows all the grammar, all the vocabulary, the literature and so on, but is not fluent. Cannot live in the language, so to speak. This teacher would be capable of imparting some important knowledge about the language, but wouldn't the students be short-changed?

---

On this case; unless people are opposed to even letting a man teach women's studies (or perhaps even take a class) in the first place, isn't it a little unfair to say that there should be limits to their careers? They can teach, they can produce research, they can even earn tenure, but they can't take the top spot. But I suppose some would say that men deserve their own glass ceiling . . . though why the women's studies guy should be the one subject to it is beyond me.

[ 20 November 2005: Message edited by: Andrew_Jay ]

quote:

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I had a French teacher who was British. One could say she hadn't really experienced what it was "like" to be a French speaking person. She could speak French fine with any French speaker and but she certainly taught French well enough, but does it matter that she wasn't "really" French?

---

No. If all she was teaching was French language, then no: it doesn't matter where she came from, or maybe even whether she is human or a robot. Her particular accent and knowledge of many idioms might matter, given many contexts, but even robots can adjust for that.

Women's studies courses aren't quite the same as courses in discrete languages or in, say, mathematics. They are subdivisions of history and sociology; they are attempts to retrieve and/or liberate and/or create cultures that have been lost or suppressed or never before realized because of a dominant narrative that denied their importance or even their possibility.

That is why attempts at equivalence always fail. In the humanities, by definition, the dominant narrative does not have to fight for space: it has created the space; the space is the space of the dominant narrative. All dissenters must fight for any wee dark corner they can find.

But then the reversal. Do I think a first nations person should be advising white (or any non-native for that matter) high school kids on their life? Actually no, I've no idea what their lives are like either, never having been one. I'm pretty sure that most (not all) white kids have an easier time of it than most (not all) natives do but that only allows me to tell them that their own problems aren't really significant. Might be morally satisfying for me, but not useful for the kids I'd be advising.

quote:

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Originally posted by aRoused:

That kind of situation is simplicity itself to create or have happen.

Five professors in the department, three senior, two junior. Of the seniors, one is male, two female. Female 1 is lured to another department at a different university. Female 2 is the current Head. Female 2's term ends, the two junior members are too junior to take on the responsibility even if they wanted to (as they're both publishing and teaching like mad to get tenure and build their careers). Job falls to the only qualified and present person.

This is an extremely common situation in academic departments. Only the nature of the department's subject matter is making the gender of the professors an issue.

edit: I posed five as an example. Checking, there are nine 'senior' (in terms of time since PhD) and three 'junior' academics in the department. Of the nine senior academics, four are full professors and one is a professor emerita. Of the four full professors, two have external committments (one Vice Provost, one Dean) that would prevent them from taking the position. I submit that, internally, this guy really was the only person who could take over the job, bar giving it to someone at the grade of Associate Professor. Now, *I* wouldn't have a problem with an AP being my department Head (my current dep head only just got her PhD), but my guess is that UWash don't work that way and insists on full professorship.

VoD makes an excellent point: This is almost certainly a largely administrative position, with a lot of politicking and scrambling around in the muck of committee meetings trying to secure funding, balance the department budget, and really a load of headaches for precious little reward or recognition. I've seen just a bit of what the job entails in an archaeology department, and you couldn't pay me enough to take it on.

[ 20 November 2005: Message edited by: aRoused ]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by retread:
Hm, actually I reluctantly find myself agreeing with the reversal. I'm first nations, grew up on a reserve, came to the city in late high school. Do I think a white person should be advising kids like I was? Not on your life. So far so good.

---

Now see, this I have a problem with.

I think it comes down to the area in which the advice is being given. Would I accept advice from John Kim Bell on a number of areas? Damned straight. Would I listen to Bill Gates on how to create an evil empire - er, I mean a "monopolistic multinational corporation", yep.

On the other hand, I don't actually feel the need to ask anyone how to be a black woman, but I'm pretty sure neither of them would be the first to mind.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Makwa:
You are the UberTolerant! The Tolerant of the Tolerant! You are so Tolerant, Tolerance spills off you in waves of searing radiation, burning the intolerant into a screaming pile of putrid ash on contact! Tolerant Man, sent from the Alpha Quadrant to save poor pitiful earthlings from the scheming of the intolerant! A divine Tolerance, an ineffable tolerance, a tolerance beyond tolerance, a tolerance which moves faster than the speed of light! A tolerance so vast and wonderful that mere mortals can only cower and gibber in wonder and delight!

---

quote:

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It is extremely important to recognise that no discipline belongs absolutely to a specific racial or other biologically-defined group.

---

Jeff House, this is not the issue in any way. "Woman" is as socially constructed a term as "race" is. But the culture of growing up as a woman, or as a person of colour, or as a Native person, has tremendous meaning and impact on individuals and communities.

My point is, what is the value in having another white man in there (as David Allen himself recognized in the article) when they, and their perspectives, are everywhere in the friggin academy? This is particularly apt for a discipline such as women's studies. Sure, he may have academic qualifications in the discipline, but he most certainly does not have experience being on the receiving end of the boot we like to call The Patriarchy.

This has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with male privilege and male supremacy, which is the culture we live in.

And really, the question "should a man be head of a Women's Studies Department?" is ludicrous and elitist. Personally, there are many other political struggles that I put my energy towards.

quote:

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Jeff House, this is not the issue in any way. "Woman" is as socially constructed a term as "race" is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:

And really, the question "should a man be head of a Women's Studies Department?" is ludicrous and elitist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Are you saying that gender doesn't technically exist?

---

[ 20 November 2005: Message edited by: Makwa ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by retread:
But then the reversal. Do I think a first nations person should be advising white (or any non-native for that matter) high school kids on their life? Actually no, I've no idea what their lives are like either, never having been one. I'm pretty sure that most (not all) white kids have an easier time of it than most (not all) natives do but that only allows me to tell them that their own problems aren't really significant. Might be morally satisfying for me, but not useful for the kids I'd be advising.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Makwa:
Interesting problem. It's hard to sympathise sometimes with whites who try to explain how they know more about police harassment or how they worry about crime and poverty in POC communities.

---

Not sure its a question of sympathy. I've seen enough desperate white street kids to know some of them have a hard time of it, even if I don't know why. The fact that most white kids have it easier probably doesn't help the ones who don't.

Have they been sexually or physically abused? Parents strung out on various substances? Or just neglected by parents too busy getting ahead? I don't know, and I don't know how these things play out in white culture. Those kids need help from folks from their own people who've been through it, just as aboriginals need help from our own people who've been through it.

The idea that you can have more than a superficial understanding of a people without living as them is an example of something about the white culture I don't understand. And that works both ways.

And to get on topic, the same applies between genders. No way a man can understand what its like to be a woman, or vice versa. The appointment doesn't make sense (though the argument that its a lousy job that no one else would take is believable from what I saw as a grad student).

[ 21 November 2005: Message edited by: retread ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by retread:
Do I think a white person should be advising kids like I was? Not on your life. So far so good.

But then the reversal. Do I think a first nations person should be advising white (or any non-native for that matter) high school kids on their life? Actually no, I've no idea what their lives are like either, never having been one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sven:
Who would be best to advise my (1) half white and half black niece and (2) my two half white and half Chinese nieces?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fern hill:
How 'bout this for an analogy: What if a teacher of some language, say English, didn't actually speak it? This teacher knows all the grammar, all the vocabulary, the literature and so on, but is not fluent. Cannot live in the language, so to speak. This teacher would be capable of imparting some important knowledge about the language, but wouldn't the students be short-changed?

---

...drift...

I had a French teacher like that. She was Scottish. Every time a fire bell was pulled, if the fire brigade came, she would hit on the firemen. She wore too much make-up, and wierd press-on finger nails.

Why is it that women have made great advances in law, medicine, engineering, and dentistry, and almost none at all in carpentry, plumbing and electricity?

quote:

---

And to get on topic, the same applies between genders. No way a man can understand what its like to be a woman, or vice versa. The appointment doesn't make sense (though the argument that its a lousy job that no one else would take is believable from what I saw as a grad student).

---

quote:

---

Are you saying that gender doesn't technically exist?

---

And, what Corinne said, verbatim. (Thanks Corinne!)

quote:

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Why is it ludicrous and elitist? I am not sure I follow.

---

Ludicrous because the answer is obvious to me: No. Elitist for the reasons that MasterDebator listed above. The academy is an elitist place. Personally, my political energy goes elsewhere rather than fussing over the fact that female rofs make less than male profs, get tenure at lower rates, etc, but I ain't too concerned when we're talking about people making well over $65-$70 Gs a year.

As for Sven's rather disingenuous questions, there's enough literature on mixed race people (I did my Master's thesis on the topic) that I would simply suggest checking out these sites (both are U.S.ian. I don't know of any Canadian ones):

Mavin Foundation for Mixed Race People and their families

quote:

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Originally posted by aRoused:

retread, this, and the rest of what you've been saying, seems to me, ultimately, to doom us to live segregated lives

---

Could a man competently teach in, or lead, a women's studies department? Probably. But there will undoubtedly be something lacking and the department, students and professors may suffer.

Similarly, a *insert ethnicity here* advisor to *insert ethnicity here* students may do a competent job in assisting a black student with problems and career goals, however, the relationship between advisor and student may lack the "it" factor that would make it so much better and effective for the student.

However, the further one takes the argument that one should only be counselled, treated, taught (in certain instances) by someone who is culturally, ethnically and gender-wise the mirror of the student, advisee, etc, it can get quite ridiculous. Should I find out if my therapist has had a diagnosed mental illness, should I examine my father's neurologist's latest MRI, to ensure that they each have the potential to have the correct amount of empathy for my situation? Should I, as a student, not accept advice from a white, Eastern European advisor because I am a white, Northern European.

quote:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
but I ain't too concerned when we're talking about people making well over $65-$70 Gs a year.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
You just don't get it do you?

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quote:

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aroused, I guess you don't already know that POC and Native people already live lives that are segregated. Segregated from having white people who understand, truly, what life is like in a white supremacist culture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
. . . but he most certainly does not have experience being on the receiving end of the boot we like to call The Patriarchy.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by aRoused:
at what point do we stop splitting people into ever-dwindling groups based on ever more stringent criteria, and deny the very possibility that they could interact in any meaningful way?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by idontandwontevergolf:
Similarly, a *insert ethnicity here* advisor to *insert ethnicity here* students may do a competent job in assisting a black student with problems and career goals, however, the relationship between advisor and student may lack the "it" factor that would make it so much better and effective for the student.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by moderatsaklart:
Apart from the "burning the intolerant into a screaming pile of putrid ash" stuff, not a bad observation.

---

[ 21 November 2005: Message edited by: aRoused ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by idontandwontevergolf:
Similarly, a *insert ethnicity here* advisor to *insert ethnicity here* students may do a competent job in assisting a black student with problems and career goals, however, the relationship between advisor and student may lack the "it" factor that would make it so much better and effective for the student.

---

Oh this is bull.

As a black woman, I have three mentors: a white male (we met when he was the CEO of a company I was working for), a Jewish man, and a black man. All three of whom are significantly older than I am (not a surprise given the mentor role).

There's a point at which a person has to own up to his or her insecurities and either face them head on and move forward, or sit and whine that there is no one who can help them get where they need to be. If I only wanted to deal with a black woman as an advisor, then I'd be waiting a damned long time.

There is also the issue of culture vs race. Would this hypothetical black student require that the advisor only be black, or more specifically, Nigerian, or Jamaican, or have grown up in the inner city of Detroit? Because those are going to be three very different people. Shall we fly in some Zuni advisors to Innu children? Hey, they're all Native, right?

quote:

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Excuse me, Stargazer. Is there a reason you follow me from thread to thread and harrass me? I have opinions. They are supportable. They won't always align 100% with yours. Get over it.

---

I think everyone here agrees that such a job should go to the most qualified person.

Some people think that, for reasons of lived experience, that necessarily would be a woman.

I disagree with that; I think that it is easily conceivable that a man would be a better director of women's studies than any available female candidate.

But there is nothing hypocritical or illegal about the opposing view; it comes down to how much weight is given to experiential factors.

As I stated above, the problem with using imponderable experiential factors is that it could be used as a screen for racial or gender prejudice. One could easily imagine someone concluding that a female has the wrong experience to teach a bunch of male engineering students, for example.

quote:

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Excuse me, Stargazer. Is there a reason you follow me from thread to thread and harrass me? I have opinions. They are supportable. They won't always align 100% with yours. Get over it.

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quote:

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Don't flatter yourself.

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quote:

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The problem, it seems, is the department doesn't have enough women qualified for the job, which rotates among full professors every five years.

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And:

quote:

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Allen vowed that when he leaves the chair, there will be plenty of qualified candidates to take his place.

Founded in 1970, the University of Washington program was one of the first in the nation. There are now more than 800, but only 10 offer doctoral degrees.

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So, a shortage of intersted, qualified women is cited as the reason for this state of affairs. Makes me wonder what sort of hiring/retention planning is going on, and if the university widened its search.

As stated in the article, no one seems particularly happy with this state of affairs. Good. But what's being done to draw women to the department, and what's being done to ensure greater interest in administrative duties?

For me, this isn't just a matter of whether or not a man is qualified to hold this position, but also one of equity. Women have traditionally been underrepresented in positions of authority in univerisities, so seeing something like this occur in a women's studies program is particularly troubling.

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Originally posted by ex-hippy:
This thread shows the hypocracy of so-called progressives. To deny a person employment on the basis of their gender is both illegal and immoral. I thought progressives were for equality and against discrimination on the basis of gender, race etc.etc.

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Let's say I wanted to apply to a civil service job whose hiring requirements give preference to visible minorities and women. Now, as a white male I would be specifically disadvantaged, which is very ironic since my ancestors have been just as discriminated against as any other group (my ancestors were N. Irish and Catholic, not a great situation given 800 years of English suppression of Irish culture, religion, language, and autonomy, even unequal voting rights in N. Ireland up until around the 1960s).

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Originally posted by Euhemeros:
Now, as a white male I would be specifically disadvantaged, which is very ironic since my ancestors have been just as discriminated against as any other group (my ancestors were N. Irish and Catholic, not a great situation given 800 years of English suppression of Irish culture, religion, language, and autonomy, even unequal voting rights in N. Ireland up until around the 1960s).

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What do you smoke Makwa. I want some

[ 21 November 2005: Message edited by: ex-hippy ]

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Originally posted by ex-hippy:
What do you smoke Makwa. I want some

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The potato famine and internicine warfare aside, I don't recall any deliberate mass murder or enslavement of the Irish or Catholics.

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I don't recall that for most "visible minorities" or First Nations, either (though I could be wrong about First Nations, there never seemed to be a determined genocide of Canada's First Nations).

What's more is that the situation of Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland is much like that of the First Nations in Canada. For one thing, Irish Catholic live, basically, in ghettos, face constant barriers to employment as the Protestant elite have long discriminated, and also discrimination from the Royal Ulster Constabulary/ Police Service of Northern Ireland.

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Originally posted by Euhemeros:
I don't recall that for most "visible minorities" or First Nations, either (though I could be wrong about First Nations, there never seemed to be a determined genocide of Canada's First Nations)...What's more is that the situation of Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland is much like that of the First Nations in Canada. For one thing, Irish Catholic live, basically, in ghettos, face constant barriers to employment as the Protestant elite have long discriminated, and also discrimination from the Royal Ulster Constabulary/ Police Service of Northern Ireland.

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Sigh. I don't have the energy for this tonight. Can we pick this up in another thread, tomorrow, please?

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We don't really need to handle anything unless you wish.

We could go on forever about who has it worse or who had been more discriminated against throughout history, but we loose sight of the point. The point would be that discrimination, even in favour of a typically disadvantaged group, is stil discrimination.

How do we solve the situation of disadvantaged groups so that those groups can become equal? Simply, equal opportunity in hiring, education, etc. Of course, we do not live in the socialist paradise that would be able to effect such equalizing changes so, in a way, discrimination in favour of disadvantaged groups is, to some extent, necessary.

[ 21 November 2005: Message edited by: Euhemeros ]

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Originally posted by Euhemeros:
We could go on forever about who has it worse or who had been more discriminated against throughout history, but we loose sight of the point. The point would be that discrimination, even in favour of a typically disadvantaged group, is stil discrimination.

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Originally posted by idontandwontevergolf:
Similarly, a *insert ethnicity here* advisor to *insert ethnicity here* students may do a competent job in assisting a black student with problems and career goals, however, the relationship between advisor and student may lack the "it" factor that would make it so much better and effective for the student.
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Actually donwannagolf, I think you hit the nail on the head. Given the choice of getting that "it" factor by getting someone with the lived experience and the zeal, and hiring the merely competent, the "it" factor wins out every time. However, that is not always available, given the educational disparities experienced by FN and POC.

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Yippee, Makwa likes me!

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Originally posted by idontandwontevergolf:
Similarly, a *insert ethnicity here* advisor to *insert ethnicity here* students may do a competent job in assisting a black student with problems and career goals, however, the relationship between advisor and student may lack the "it" factor that would make it so much better and effective for the student.
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Oh this is bull.

As a black woman, I have three mentors: a white male (we met when he was the CEO of a company I was working for), a Jewish man, and a black man. All three of whom are significantly older than I am (not a surprise given the mentor role).

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Boo, het doesn't like me.

Actually, I agree with myself (of course), Makwa and het. In that post, I went on to say that it could get quite ridiculous (in terms of logistics) to find an advisor who mirrored the advisee's cultural/ethnic/socio-economic/religous and whatever, criteria. Depending on the counsel/teaching one needs, the "it" factor may not have anything to do with shared ethnic etc...experiences but may have to do with a shared academic/business/work/tragedy experience. So a FN or POC or WASP or black catholic or sephardic jew or the list goes on, may be able to counsel/teach one effectively and have the "it" factor that makes the connection because they share a common background relating to whatever it is that defines their relationship. I couldn't counsel a fellow atheist-WASP regarding alcohol abuse because I have not had this experience but I may be able to offer some meagre form of acceptable counsel to a POC friend who has suffered from depression and lost a job because of it. Just as, when this very thing happened to me several years ago, an FN friend helped me greatly.

[ 22 November 2005: Message edited by: idontandwontevergolf ]

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Help! My computer only supports 320x240 resolution, and my dial-up ISP provides data to me by sending little turtles through the phone line, carrying data packets on their backs.
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[ 22 November 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]

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Originally posted by idontandwontevergolf:
Boo, het doesn't like me.

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I disagree with lots of people and it has nothing to do with whether I like them or not

I think it is damned near impossible to make these kinds of generalizations - back to the subject of advising - because it always depends on the area of advisement, the connection between the two people, and the individual seeking the advice.

For instance, I know that I do not get along with every black woman I meet, so that that isn't a sufficient condition for assuming there will be a connection.

Here:

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Jeff House, this is not the issue in any way. "Woman" is as socially constructed a term as "race" is. But the culture of growing up as a woman, or as a person of colour, or as a Native person, has tremendous meaning and impact on individuals and communities.

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(And actually, I just noticed that this thread is really long, so feel free to start a new one.)

[ 24 November 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]