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Topic: Do Starbucks managers deserve share of tips?
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Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019
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posted 21 March 2008 07:28 AM
Why would you tip at a bar but not at a coffee shop (particularly when you're paying about the same amount, as you would at a Starbucks)?As for the question posed in the OP, it really depends as to what qualifies as a "shift supervisor." If it's a 19 year-old who gets a buck more an hour, but still has to serve customers and make drinks, I don't see why he wouldn't. If it's a franchise owner, then certainly, certainly not. Of course, if, like me, you find upscale coffee houses like Starbucks with their overpriced beverages, simulacra interiors and disposable cardboard cups an abomination, both problems are easily resolved.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 21 March 2008 07:48 AM
quote: Originally posted by rural - Francesca: Do Starbucks managers deserve share of tips?In all my waitressing jobs, management and owners never got a cut of tips, because they got paid more, and often were not the front line worker.
In Québec, there are tip jars almost everywhere. Often, when travelling in the rest of Canada, I look around at the cash (e.g. at a Subway) and ask about tipping, and the employee smiles and says, "Oh, people don't tip here, you don't have to, etc.". I end having to leave some coins somewhere, not knowing where they'll end up. Managers of course should not get tips, but by "manager" I mean people who have hiring and firing and similar functions - I agree with Catchfire about the "supervisor" who works but is really more like a lead hand. More importantly, you have non-front-line workers (e.g. cooks) who need a proportional share. Some establishments pool all tips and have some formula for divvying them up. That, to me, is the appropriate method. Some (few) add 15% as a flat gratuity to all bills, which is fine with me too. But what Starbucks really needs is not a tipping policy. It needs a union. Not in my lifetime, perhaps, but who knows.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 21 March 2008 08:21 AM
It was always my understanding that tips are for workers who make less than minimum wage (or a lesser minimum), in order to top up their pay.Servers make a far less hourly rate than cooks and other staff in restaurants. So they should get the tips. I'm not sure about this, but I don't think that's the case in fast food restaurants where cooks and cashier/counter staff all earn the same pay. So that's why you don't tip in those places. That's why you don't tip cashiers at other stores either. The way I judge it is, if there's no table service, then I'm not required to tip. If there IS table service, then the people who serve you should get the tips, unless they make the same hourly rate as the cooks and other staff, in which case they should have to share them with the others. But how they divvy their tips is up to them, and not really my concern. Unionist is right - if people want to be fairly compensated, they need to organize.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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Proaxiom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6188
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posted 21 March 2008 08:38 AM
quote: Originally posted by Catchfire: Why would you tip at a bar but not at a coffee shop (particularly when you're paying about the same amount, as you would at a Starbucks)?
And why don't we tip flight attendants?
Why do we tip anyone? Why don't restaurants just raise the price of the food, pay their servers more, and then tell people they don't have to tip?
From: East of the Sun, West of the Moon | Registered: Jun 2004
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Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019
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posted 21 March 2008 08:51 AM
I do tip flight attendants if I buy drinks with cash on a flight (or on the train).My point about a bar is that if I order a pint, the bartender picks up a glass, pushes a tap, fills the glass, and charges me four dollars. I leave five. I return to my seat. This is standard practice. If, on the other hand, I order a skim double-shot latte (I don't), the barista grabs the specific milk, steams it just so, grinds the espresso, measures it, makes a good coffee (much harder than pouring a Guinness) and mixes the two appropriately. She then charges me four dollars. I leave four dollars. Why is this just? Anyone who thinks that working a service job, even at the counter, or behind the front-of-house in the kitchen is the same as sitting in a chair in front of a cash register in a convenience store is deluded. Table service workers used to get paid a little less an hour, but the money they make up in tips (particularly for bartenders) far outweighs that deduction. It's more out of respect for the worker than some sort of top-up. Believe me, if the result was the same, table service workers would definitely pick the higher wage in lieu of tips. Of course, I wish we didn't have to tip at all, so that service workers could keep their dignity. Ideally, service charges should be directly added to the bill, or in counter service situations, employees should be paid a livable wage.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 21 March 2008 09:01 AM
I don't think anyone here is deluded about the difficulty of service counter jobs. I'm certainly not - I did it for four years at a bread bakery. I served customers at the counter, doing cash, slicing their bread, etc. But because our place was a store, no tips were expected or offered.I don't see the difference between my job there, my friend's job at Home Hardware (where the counter people do a heck of a lot more than "sit in a chair behind the cash" - and so do cashiers at convenience stores and drug stores, a job I also had as a teenager), and a Starbucks Barrista. Except that, of course, that all three are grossly underpaid. But it gets kind of ridiculous that the same people who line the pockets of the owners of these places by paying their grossly-inflated prices should then also have to subsidize the shit wages they pay their employees on top of it. I don't think it's too much to expect that if someone buys a $4 cup of coffee, which they line up for at a counter and carry out or to the table themselves, that the $4 includes the cost of pouring it and handing it to you. If the workers aren't being paid enough to do that, then they need to organize. P.S. I agree that the bartender example is a strange anomaly. Considering that bartenders generally earn a considerably higher hourly wage than servers, I don't see why they get tips either. In most bars, people either go to the bar themselves and order drinks, or they order them from servers, who then go to the bartender and order the drinks for the customers. I don't see the logic behind that either. But I don't think the solution is to start tipping convenience store clerks who pour slushies. I think at some point there has to be a line drawn and people have to say, we've agreed to pay a certain amount for this product, and that includes the cost of pouring it in a cup. [ 21 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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adam stratton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14803
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posted 21 March 2008 03:36 PM
This rip-off of front line workers -at the receiving end of blame, abuse, sexism and uncivility- is pervasive in the "hospita;ity business". Accept our (less than or) minimum wage pay, pay us for your uniform.. and psst! Don't forget to give that cut from your tips. I have three daughters who work(ed) at East Side Mario, Boston Pizza etc.. etc.. All the same. Aren't the majority of workers at these -mostly non-unionized- establishments women? Hmm! I forgot, Canada's feminist movements "catchement area" does not include these lowly ones! [ 21 March 2008: Message edited by: adam stratton ]
From: Eastern Ontario | Registered: Dec 2007
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Skinny Dipper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11459
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posted 21 March 2008 04:08 PM
Managers and owners who are in a position to hire and fire do not deserve a cut of the tips as they receive their extra earnings from the profits their establishment makes.I will agree that a shift-supervisor who is not in a management type position does deserve to share in the tips if tip sharing is the norm. I do not believe that a tip is automatic. If the service is great, the tip is great. If the service is poor, the tip is poor or non-existant. I do like the European way of tipping where gratuity is included. If there is any extra tip, it is just rounded up to the nearest Euro. The servers usually make decent money for their work.
From: Ontarian for STV in BC | Registered: Dec 2005
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triciamarie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12970
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posted 21 March 2008 04:46 PM
Maybe it does come from living in Quebec but I tip large for any personal service, including being served food or any type of drink, or being taken somewhere in a taxi, or getting my hair cut, or having something delivered, or having someone look after my kids -- any of that, and a lot more. It's probably like a noblesse oblige holdover or something unpalatable like that, but -- why wouldn't I want to show respect and appreciation for the service, and try to even up our income a little, when it's socially acceptable to do so? I just think it's friendly. I would probably tip for service at the hardware store too if I could.Even in Quebec though, the cafe tip jar doesn't yield a vast sum of money as I recall. The full-time guy got an equal cut in our store, even though he made more money, and that seemed reasonable. He would have been equivalent to a shift supervisor in Starbucks hierarchy. http://www.starbucksunion.org/node/77 [ 21 March 2008: Message edited by: triciamarie ]
From: gwelf | Registered: Jul 2006
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rural - Francesca
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14858
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posted 21 March 2008 07:19 PM
Don't read the rest of that website, it will make you sick.I thought a tip was suppose to be a "thanks for doing a great job and catering to my needs" not a "here's some extra money because you're not as valued and I have to subsidise you wages" thing. I have food allergies and the wait staff that get my generous tips are the ones that take it seriously, bring me the chef or the list of ingredients - really go above and beyond. It really irks me that the onus is on the customer to subsidize a wage like this. I've also worked in 'ma & pa' restaurants and the mark up on food is so slim that there's very little profit, but then I've also been here: My second husband was a FN commercial fisherman. We went out for dinner to cheer him up because he was only getting 50 cents a pound for Splake. The special at the restaurant that night: a wonderful 6 oz slice of splake $17.99 I had to kick him under the table because I thought he was going to rip the head off the poor waiter. The next year the guys got a processing plant up and running so they could filte and debone and smoke thier own fish, and sell it for $3+ a pound. Two years ago - and 6 years after we split up - he couldn't sell it, wasn't worth it, so he used my charity and we gave away about 3 tons of fish to low income families in the community, as a protest against the buyer's price.
From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007
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jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798
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posted 22 March 2008 09:58 AM
I was on a criuse ship that had mostly Filipino hotel staff. The policy as spun to the passengers was that a 15% service charge was added to the bill at the end of the voyage and that it was distributed to the crew.In fact, this 15% was utilised as performance bonuses and only dispensed to those who met the company's strict performance guidelines. Also, the "tips" were prorated so that social directors,entertainers etc received significantly more than mere functionaries. We got along very well with the lesser mortals of the ship and they told us they didn't get any of the service charges. On the last night, I made a point of giving all our staff,waiters,bartenders,assistant cleaners,steward, 20 Euro bills personally. Most of them were totally surprised - its a pretty hard life for these people. So, in regard to Starbucks or any other corporate entity, I do not doubt that if management is allowed any involvement in gratuities,the thrust of their involvement will be to utilise the gratuities to promote corporate profit,not employee benefit.
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 23 March 2008 05:24 AM
quote: Originally posted by Bacchus: And do they have official classifications of what is a 'tip-receiving' employee? Or can the employer just decide that for themselves?
It's very tightly regulated by law. Here are some descriptive excerpts: quote: Tips are made up of the sums voluntarily paid by patrons or service charges added to the patron’s bill, but do not include administration fees added to this bill. An employer cannot require that an employee pay credit card costs. Whatever form tips take, they cannot become part of the wages. Consequently, the employer must pay the employee at least the minimum wage prescribed without taking into account the tips that he receives. ...An employee receiving tips is an employee who usually receives tips and who works: 1º in an establishment that offers lodging to tourists in return for payment, including a campground; 2º in a place where alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on the premises; 3º for an enterprise that sells, delivers or serves meals to be eaten off the premises; or 4º in a restaurant, except if it is a place where the main activity consists in the providing of food services to customers who order or choose the items at a service counter and who pay before eating. ... The tip may be paid directly or indirectly to employees. It is paid directly by the patron to the employee, when it is given from hand to hand. Tips are paid indirectly when the employer collects tips on behalf of the employee under either of the following circumstances: 1º the patron uses his credit card or debit card; 2º the patron pays the employer service charges added to the bill. Whether tips are paid directly or indirectly, they belong to the employee who rendered the service. If the employer collects the tips, he must give them in their entirety to the employee who rendered the service. ... The employer cannot impose the sharing of tips among employees. Nor can he intervene in any way whatsoever in the establishment of a tip-sharing arrangement. Only those employees entitled to tips may agree to distribute among themselves the tips that belong to them or to distribute a portion thereof to other employees in the establishment. However, an employee who benefits from a redistribution of tips does not become, by reason of this fact, an employee having to be paid at the minimum wage rate applicable to employees receiving tips.
quote: Hmm Ontarios minimum wage just went up too, but I think to $8. $0.75 less huh?
As of right now, the "general minimum wage" in Ontario is $8.00 per hour and $6.90 for "liquor servers". I'm pleased to say, though that as a result of a huge push by the labour movement, the minimum wage is scheduled to rise to $8.75 on March 31, then to $9.50 one year later, then to $10.25 one year after that (Mar. 31, 2010). At that time "liquor servers" minimum will be $8.90.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 23 March 2008 06:23 AM
quote: Originally posted by Michael Hardner: Well, the customer would subsidize a higher wage through higher prices anyway. The lower minimum wage for tipped servers is just another of those 'gotchas' that we all know and love.
I would love to see a restaurant where they raised their prices by 15%, paid their "liquor servers" $14 per hour and made it an absolute rule to their patrons that they are NOT ALLOWED to tip. Like, not allowed. At all. Print right in the menu: our servers get paid twice the server's minimum wage and we do not want you to tip. We're starting a trend. I'll bet anything, they'd still make money hand over fist. But the servers wouldn't have to try and be mini-accountants and keep track of their tips for tax time, and they probably wouldn't lose any money. I'd totally go to a place that does that.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 23 March 2008 06:43 AM
quote: Originally posted by Michelle:
I would love to see a restaurant where they raised their prices by 15%, paid their "liquor servers" $14 per hour and made it an absolute rule to their patrons that they are NOT ALLOWED to tip. ... I'd totally go to a place that does that.
So would I. Tipping employees because the customer really appreciates their personalized service is medieval. They are not hired as personal servants by the customer, they are hired by the establishment.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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500_Apples
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12684
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posted 23 March 2008 09:26 AM
quote: Originally posted by unionist:
I live in Québec. The minimum wage is $8.00/hour, going up to $8.50 on May 1, 2008. Employees receiving tips have a minimum of 75 cents per hour less - shamefully IMO.
The charest government is raising minimum wage by 6.25% on May 1st? How about that, life is full of surprises.
From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006
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500_Apples
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12684
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posted 23 March 2008 09:33 AM
With respect to the thread,As far as I recall, I tip for restaurants 15-20% (more for a great waiter or waitress), about $2-4 for cabs, and $5-10 for haircuts and eyebrow waxes, and between 50 cents and a dollar for fast food. I tip in bars like 20% which is ridiculous because the social convention is imposed. All in all, having worked in the service sector, I think it's a cesspool of discrimination and exploitation. I was asked by smooth-looking business to pay for my uniform which is illegal in Quebec but the managers never flinched an eye. For example, when I applied for a job at Roots once, they told me I would have to wear their clothing, from shoes to hat and everything in between, which meant spending like $300 before receiving the first paycheck of what was going to be a 15 hour a week job. In other jobs I've had to register complaints with the commission of labour. Last but not least, the sexism pissed me off. It was much harder to get hired as a teenage male, as managers like the idea of pretty seventeen year old girls dealing with the customers. One six or seven years ago time my friend and I were in a movie theater and we noticed that all the employees behind the counter selling overpriced pop corn, selling the tickets, etc, were pretty teenage girls. There was one male employee - the janitor.
From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006
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