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Part 1

John is a year four student at this school. As he wants to be an electrical engineer, he takes primarily Maths and Physics courses. He finds these quite tough, and puts most of his time into them. He doesn't have many extracurricular activities, as he finds he is short of time.

On the basis of the above:
1) Describe what John looks like.
2) Describe what other people think of John.
3) Predict how successful John will be in his career.

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Part 2

Joan is a year four student at this school. As she wants to be an electrical engineer, she takes primarily Maths and Physics courses. She finds these quite tough, and puts most of her time into them. She doesn't have many extracurricular activities, as she finds she is short of time for courses.

On the basis of the above:
1) Describe what Joan looks like.
2) Describe what other people think of Joan.
3) Predict how successful Joan will be in her career.

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In the 70s , 80s and first part of the 90s there were huge differences in my classes' perception of John and Joan...Joan was projected to be less attractive, less sociable and significantly less likely to succeed. But for the past five years there has been no difference in perception. The students are 16/17 years old, and my interpretation is that these kids are now more accepting of females following careers that were traditionally male dominated.

The socio-economic status and ethnic background has been similar among my students, so I don't think that's the reason for the change in perception.

Now, think about that. Your ambitions that low? No -- just kidding -- or maybe not.

I think it's awesome, wonderful and terrific that we can measure sucess similarly for males and females. It seems though that this measurement is taking place strictly with the structure of the capitalist society, whereby, both sexes are free to work their asses off for as long as possible to line the pockets of the few and chase the carrot on the stick which has us imagine that through hard work and dilligence that could be us living off the sweat of others.

WHat about on a more basic humanist level? It seems that any reference to nurturing, any reference to a desire for parenthood is seen as repugnant? uneducated? undermining the cause?

Why have we so willing let go of part of what makes us so special? It was always men who feared the wondrous workings of the female body and os tried to belittle and condemn everything related to "femaleness" now it seems we are willing to do the self same thing.

Enter into to this mix the fact that if we are standing alone and they are standing alone is there a place to stand together? Have we completely nixed the concept of men having responsibility for the offspring they produce by saying we are quite capable of doing this ourselves?

Has the "sexual revolution" really helped women or just made it easier for guys to get laid and walk away from any resulting pregnancy with a simple "whaddya mean ya pregnant" "well take care of it then"?

THere has been an increase in strip clubs, an increase in veneral disease but unfortunately no increase in maturity in the way people think about sex, it is still mainly in the realm of dirty little secret.

I know when I was younger I had girlfriends confess they often did things with guys simply because they didn't know what to give as an excuse not to. Strange isnt' how they didnt' feel that their own feelings of not wanting to at that time was sufficient reason?

(I was going to apologize for my little joke, except it has seemed such a pleasant, generally shared one that I decided not to go quite that far.)

To me, this paragraph of earthmother's raises the issue of greatest substance here:

quote:

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I think it's awesome, wonderful and terrific that we can measure sucess similarly for males and females. It seems though that this measurement is taking place strictly with the structure of the capitalist society, whereby, both sexes are free to work their asses off for as long as possible to line the pockets of the few and chase the carrot on the stick which has us imagine that through hard work and dilligence that could be us living off the sweat of others.

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Successes of feminism are many and mostly in the public sphere especially education and work. But in the private sphere of family, children and relationships we have a long way to go. I am hopeful because I see a real change in the generation of men under thirty-five. They are more likely to take it for granted that they are equally responsible for parenting, less likely to think of themselves as better than women etc

quote:

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if you're responding to my jokey spelling of "gril," I hasten to inform all that it is just a joke,

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A great short story, by Mel Gilden, (1972) based on an older joke, called "What about us grils?"

Yes, it would have been interesting to have set up a paired questionnaire in which both John and Joan are caring people-focussed people who want to work to help and nurture: then see how they're judged. Damn. Shoulda thought of that back when. Where's the revert button?

But the fact that students seem to be judging less by gender seems to me to be a very positive sign, though it is only a specific battle and not by any means the end of the war.

RE: Earthmother's wonderful comments on sex and pressure and conformity, I've been working this year as staff advisor to the Muslim Student's Association in our school, and I have begun to learn just how much the strong independent Muslim girls who choose not to wear make-up, flirt and play to boys have to teach our society. [later editorial's note: See my implicit racism? They are of course a part of our society. I should have written "other parts of our society"]

Many of them wear a hijab, are traditional in values, but are planning independent careers and simply don't define their success as a person at all in terms of a boyfriend in a way that is still pretty common among non-Islamic girls. Similar comments on Muslim boys, though there's often a patriarchal streak there that's not a solution to any problem our society has.

It is strange to me to find myself seeing the role of Muslim women as a feminist model rather than as a problem in need of a feminist solution, but I guess growth happens in all kinds of places....

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: uh clem ]

When I was a kid growing up in the 60's, when girls were told they could be anything they wanted to be, the words "in theory" were not spoken but understood.

I think that's changed today, where "in theory" is not always at the end of the sentence.

When I was a kid, everyone's mother worked out of the home. Men of my father's generation thought it a blow to their ego to have a woman work outside the home and earn an income.

That's unheard of these days.

I'm not sure one can blame the feminists for making women feel somehow inadequate, or less than the ideal woman if they decided to work out of the home. It's just a corrollary that girls have picked up on. "If the new way to be is working and earning an income outside the home, and the new way is good, then the old way must be bad" It's a faulty conclusion young women were allowed to make for themselves, I think. But even that is changing as the pendulum swings back and forth.

Do men help out with household labour that in former years was identified with women? I don't think so. Niether are women, even women who work out of the home, taking on household labour that in former years was identified with men.

As a consequence, we all live in messy houses.

I'm not kidding. Either my working class neighborhood is some kind of anomally where a bunch of slobs have gravitated, or we're typical.

No one is picking up anymore. When I was a kid, you could go into any home and eat off the floors, and there was no clutter, no dust bunnies under the China cabinet....the attention to detail was mind boggling, now that I have to do it myself.

I've had to do housework myself, even before I was separated, even when my ex worked....or didn't work.... out of the home.

As a result, I've grown up with a generation of girls, many of whom have never learned to cook or clean. Now of course, I think the standards when, say, my grandparents were my age were way too high - I'm sorry, but I have better things to do than to worry about vacuuming UNDER the couch every time in order to be thorough - but now the standards are so low among people my age (definitely including me) that they're almost non-existent.

Maybe I'm over-generalizing here. But most of the women I know who are my age would have messy houses if you went to their homes unannounced. This probably has to do with changing standards. Also, it has to do with EVERYONE abandoning housework - men never were willing to do it, and now women are unwilling to do it as well. It could also have to do with the fact that everyone has so much STUFF these days. I have no idea whether or not people have more stuff now than they had when I was a kid, because my parents were relatively well off, so we had lots of stuff then too. But I know that there are times when I just seem to sit still and watch all my accumulations pile up around me and wonder how on earth everything gets so disorganized.

For one, there has to be a place to put things away. When the kids were young, my ex was after them to put their toys away, and I looked at what they were doing and I realized there wasn't an "away" for everything.

Since then, before getting on anyone, I make sure there's a place to put stuff away.

But, you know, I'm picking up around the house today, between this post and that... and most of this stuff are just things that the girls-- and myself-- just don't bother to put away after use.

My eldest is the worst offender, she is going to put me in the psyche ward on this issue, I'm sure.

I find it increadibly selfish, to leave one's stuff in other people's way.

I told both my older daughters that if I have to spend time picking up after them, then it's no longer coming out of my liesure time but theirs.

They can start taking the bus to go where they want instead of moments notice "Dad's taxi service", and things of that ilk.

The thing is, you can have a house that isn't cluttered, and where there's no dust bunnies under the couch. It just means instead of letting things build up to a big mess, you take care of it as you go. And, if you vacuum twice a week, well once or twice a month you look for where the dust bunnies and cob webs accumulate. If you clean regularly, you know where they always accumulate.

I sound like the "soup totalitarian" don't I?

I'm not saying I'm perfect, or that at any given time you could walk in and not find a mess here, but I'm saying it can be accomplished, if one steps back an takes an analytical approach to it.

At least I think so today. I think when men approach my age, the early to mid 40's, we tend to become a little less tollerant of what we see as being held accountable for the actions of others.

That's the heart of the few complaints I have about feminism, that I think there's aspects where women have attained a certain "equality" or "freedom", but have left behind aspects of personal responsibility that are part of the fabric of civilization, irrespective of gender.

Remember "As Good as it Gets", where Jack Nicholson delivers that line about how he can write like a woman and he says "I just think like a man, and remove reason and accountability." I mean, I roared with laughter. Not because it's in the main true. It's quite an unfair statement, actually. But when you do run into a woman who does seem to go through life without regard to reason and accountability, it sticks in your mind because they are walking disasters for those around them.

Does feminism encourage this? I don't think so, at least not intentionally. It's just that women are human, and like humans they'll come to faulty conclusions, take something they like from an idea, but leave behind the necessary, but perhaps not so likeable aspects of it.

That's not a gender thing, btw.

The division of labour on the home front is an example of this. Women, generally speaking, don't feel right about doing it the way their mothers or grandmothers did it. Maybe it's a symbol of oppression in some minds. Like how most people of colour in the States will take on any line of work, but not often will they shine shoes. And, who could blame them?

Everyone makes a mess. Everyone lives in a house. Everyone should clean.

Just like everyone raises kids, and everyone should pay child support when a marriage breaks down.

Just like everyone has to work to make a good, or better life for themselves, so no one should be able to use spousal support to shirk that responsibility.

It's not often that one could point at "feminism" and say it encourages women to have "freedoms", but doesn't encourage women to take on the responsibilities that should be encombant with them.

But, I think it happens. Fortunately, most the women I know are not like that at all. Indeed, many of them are examples I hold myself to when it comes to being responsible.

If "feminism" can be looked at as a vehicle for women to avoid "reason and accountability", it's only because this is the fashion in society as a whole at the moment.

And, btw, I'm working through a lot of issues right now, what with separating, raising three girls-- not on my own, but as parent with residency. So, "feminism" impacts me on many fronts, I think. I must be wrong, I must have blind spots. While I may seem to write with confidence it doesn't mean I don't think I can't be wrong.

I must be wrong. A lot. I'd appreciate it if I'm not left to labour under ignorance.

(meaning, tell me here, don't make me eaves drop at "WOMEN")

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

the dichotomy between public and private spheres, furthermore, tends to be reductive (like all dichotomies) and doesn't address the multiple agencies available for women.

Cudos to Dawna Matrix, I heartily agree. Cudos to Michelle and Tommy Paine for the observations on housework.

In my working-class neighborhood (and I'm not much younger than Tommy, we're talking pretty much the same era), there weren't that many SAHMs. A few, but the simple fact of the matter is, being a SAHM has always been a luxury for a working-class woman. My mother worked for the day she could afford to be a SAHM. As did my grandmother.

Having a woman stay home and out of the job market has always been a hallmark of the middle class.

quote:

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I have always thought that the state of a person's home was descriptive of their mental state.

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Winning?
Depends on whether it's a war, an argument, a race or a board-game. Yes, No, Yes, No.

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

I am encouraged that these days it appears that notions of the "successful" person are converging when it comes to the sex of the person involved.

However, as to cleaning, my "out" continues to be to agitate for robotic labor to become widespread.

Women will no longer be demeaned at all when a machine will do the work so much more efficiently - since men will not have any excuse except that the robot broke down, and I don't think any woman is going to take that guff lying down.

quote:

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The more machines we have to do the work, the more work there is expected to be done.

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That's the great irony of mechanized life, and while I don't think it's true in context of our liesure hours compared to the liesure hours of people in the pre-electric days, you are correct that we tend to use much of that liesure time doing other work we'd not have bothered with before. Washing clothes is a great example.

I remember the advent of computers as we know them in the work place. E-mail would increase communications between shifts; no more filling cabinets, paper would be saved because everything would be stored electronically.

Har har har har.

It wasn't long before people learned how to use E-mail to miscommunicate, and the computer hasn't liberated our data storage, it's facilitated increased data accumulation. The dream of scrap yards full of filling cabinets has not been realized. In fact, if there is a business to be in, it's making filling cabinets.