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The information became more disconcerting; the problems were clearly more serious and pervasive than the executive summary indicated:

"Only 47 percent of soldiers and only 38 percent of Marines agreed that noncombatants should be treated with dignity and respect."

"Well over a third of soldiers and Marines reported torture should be allowed, whether to save the life of a fellow soldier or Marine … or to obtain important information about insurgents…."

28 percent of soldiers and 30 percent of Marines reported they had cursed and/or insulted Iraqi noncombatants in their presence.

9 percent and 12 percent, respectively, reported damaging or destroying Iraqi property "when it was not necessary."

4 percent and 7 percent, respectively, reported hitting or kicking a noncombatant "when it was not necessary.

The study also reports that only 55 percent of soldiers and just 40 percent of Marines would report a unit member injuring or killing "an innocent noncombatant," and just 43 percent and 30 percent, respectively, would report a unit member destroying or damaging private property.

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The Refugee Board has ruled that abuses by U.S. forces are "isolated".

How many people here wouldn't let someone get beat on if they thought it would save their best friends life? Torture is terrible, and serves little or no purpose and is rarely effective, but I think its easy to see where these people on the ground are coming from.

I would also note that a number of people on this board seem to have served in various armed forces. I am asking all those people, please tell us how many civilains you raped, murdered, and or tortured as it most here believe this to be a foregone conclusion. Uniform on, humanity off.

[ 25 May 2007: Message edited by: ChicagoLoopDweller ]

The UN Torture Convention, signed by the US and
Canada among others, says:

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2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

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Originally posted by jeff house:
The 200 or so American soldiers who have come to Canada because they DON'T want to be part of this sort of atrocity are facing deportation. The Refugee Board has ruled that abuses by U.S. forces are "isolated". How long will Canadian institutions remain in denial, or worse, toe the American line, regardless of the facts?

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The strain of Afghanistan and Iraq has hurt the American military, lack of equipment, over stretched supply lines, high causality rates (dead and wounded), lengthy combat tours (9 and 15 months are the average tour length depending on the service), lack of combat troops and specialize units are all problems could be solved by their leadership.

As the report in the opening link mentioned that soldiers in high threat areas are most likely to have problems, from my understanding of American infantry units in Afghanistan, most battalion size units have had at least three tours of operations in the last five years. These units have had little down time, they have been constantly at a high level of stress during this time (training and at war), away from home (friends and family).

I also believe that the size of the American military is apart of the problem, their forces are too large to be professional in my view. I do not believe in the quality of American soldiers can be compared to smaller armies in the world. They have a high turn over rate among their NCOs, which are the base of any professional army. I think that all this factors also leads to mental health problems of the report.

I would like to see the full report of the survey. I would like to see the questions that were asked and how the questions were worded. It seems that the military gave this test to a wide range of soldiers. I think that this was a good test and a good report.

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Of course its illegal as a matter of law. But what do you expect these guys to say "No, please don't touch the insurgent, I would prefer my buddy take a bullet in the face." I mean, what a shocking revelation that soldiers would rather not get shot.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I think the American military personal are just stressed out from 5 years of war, a war that seems to have no end.

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Originally posted by Slumberjack:

What was their excuse at the beginning of the war when excesses were committed. Right now the combat stress is just added on to the already existing superiority complex of the average american soldier, making an more potent psycological mix. It ain't just stress that causes a soldier to consider the lives of the civilians around them to be inconsequential. Its a product of the society that they come from, whereby raghead lives don't count, period. Shock and awe, remember, downtown Bagdhad regardless of the body count.

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Slumberjack

I would agree with your statement in general about American society however I would hazard a guess that if the same test was provided in 2003 to the American military, the numbers reported would be less than the current outlook of the war.

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Of course its illegal as a matter of law. But what do you expect these guys to say "No, please don't touch the insurgent, I would prefer my buddy take a bullet in the face."

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I expect them to comply with the law. There is little reason to have a law of war if everyone is going to violate it with impunity.

I've talked to a lot of American soldiers. None of them has ever told me that he or she had to torture someone in self-defence.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
[QB] I would agree with your statement in general about American society however I would hazard a guess that if the same test was provided in 2003 to the American military, the numbers reported would be less than the current outlook of the war. QB]

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It was Bush himself that uttered the word 'crusade' when addressing his public. Then came talk of bunker buster mini-nukes, the "quaint" Geneva convention from their current Attorney General, waterboarding is ok from Rumsfeld. These things could only be said openly by politicians to a receptive public. If you've ever done an escape and evasion FTX then you know where the line is for the treatment of captured enemy combatants regardless of who they are. 50 percent for mistreating of civilians...that kind of number is instilled long before stress sets in. The attitude that allows for this is instilled by the society. They've been defeated on foreign soil because of it.

[ 25 May 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

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Originally posted by jeff house:
The reason 142 countries have agreed not to commit torture is that it never produces relaible results, and it cannot be isolated. As soon as it becomes permissible, it tends to be applied broadly. "If we don't torture HIM, maybe the fascists/communists/islamicists/whatever-opponents will WIN! And they will bring a Dark Night Upon Us."

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I would like to see the full report of the survey. I would like to see the questions that were asked and how the questions were worded. It seems that the military gave this test to a wide range of soldiers. I think that this was a good test and a good report.

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Warning: you need to wade through some DOD PR spin but a link to the full report is at the bottom:

Mental Health Report on US Troops in Iraq

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Originally posted by John K:
My take - a dirty war like Iraq dehumanizes everyone who gets caught up in it including US soldiers.[/QB]

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Originally posted by jeff house:
I've talked to a lot of American soldiers. None of them has ever told me that he or she had to torture someone in self-defence.

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It would be very interesting if a survey was done of US troops that asked whether their presence in the country was helping or hurting the Iraqi people. I'm suspect that the percentage who said it was hurting would exceed the 30% who voiced support for torture.

[ 25 May 2007: Message edited by: John K ]

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I feel the factors I have listed have increased the outcome of how a soldier would feel or how they would perform in the current situation.

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Originally posted by John K:
Slumberjack, I am not blaming the Iraqis for the predicament they are in as a result of the ill-advised US invasion and occupation of their country. It would be very interesting if a survey was done of US troops that asked whether their presence in the country was helping or hurting the Iraqi people. I'm suspect that the percentage who said it was hurting would exceed the 30% who voiced support for torture.
[ 25 May 2007: Message edited by: John K ]

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I never uttered a word that suggested that you did. I wouldn't be so optimistic about your hypothetical survey. Even the guys with limbs blown off at Walter Reed have been interviewed saying it was all worth it for the good of their country.

[ 25 May 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

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Originally posted by ForestGreen:
Of the military people I've met, there's been a whole range. There's certainly been the wackos. I've been told they get placed in the front line, high risk zones. Others seemed like decent people, and hoped they would never have to kill anybody.

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ChicagoLoopDweller
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14097
posted 25 May 2007 01:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would think that it is very, very likely that our troops would have the same numbers. Do you support torture if it would be used to save a soldiers life (it might be your own life.)? What a shock they support this. I am surprised the number isn't even higher. If anything, these numbers seem low.
How many people here wouldn't let someone get beat on if they thought it would save their best friends life? Torture is terrible, and serves little or no purpose and is rarely effective, but I think its easy to see where these people on the ground are coming from.

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How disturbing is this quote? What kind of thoughts does a person have to to come to these conclusions?

Especially this one....

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I think its easy to see where these people on the ground are coming from.

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What I mean by that is their up bringing.... What was the environment they grew up in...

Was it one of peace and harmony or one of conflict?

Taking agood look at American culture you can see the vast amounts of reference theese people could choose from...

Here is a partial list:

- war movies with the americans as heros

-video games of endless violence.

-movies depicting various forms of barbarious brutality

-Endless viewing of death in daily news shows.

- a society bult on the misguided need for guns..

- endless amounts of money spent on the military

- endless amounts of movies depicting Arabs or other cultures as bad .

-The endless struggle for a good life in America.

- endless tv shows about police culture...

- comic book depicting violence..

- the never ending disapointment in the selection of government leaders.

When these American people are thrown into a stressful situation like the War against Iraq... These people turn into the very people their culture puts on display every day infront of them...

Its discusting.......

-

[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: trippie ]

[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: trippie ]

[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: Briguy ]

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Originally posted by Rant:
I wonder if the three U.S. soldiers who were kidnapped/abducted/whatever last week by insurgents/terrorists/whatever think torture is a good thing, cause I bet they're gettin' some right now.

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Rant: I wonder if the three U.S. soldiers ...
think torture is a good thing ...

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Yeah, ChicagoLoopDweller, maybe you've mistaken this board for a place where promoting torture is okay.

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Originally posted by Slumberjack:

Yes, you're right on those factors. Add that onto what I said about the average US soldier, and send him on a house to house search kicking in the doors of innocent Iraqi families looking for bad guys. You get one hateful disaster after another. They're doomed in Iraq. Some of us saw it from the beginning, you probably did too.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
We already know why the soldiers feel about it the way they do. Chicago was justifying their response. Rant is coming pretty close to it too, although I think HE is ambiguous. Chicago wasn't. I'm going to tell both of you to take any right-wing torture promotion or justification elsewhere.

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Does anyone here really, truly think that these words that I wrote imply a promotion of torture:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I'm going to tell both of you to take any right-wing torture promotion or justification elsewhere.

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And by the way, Michelle, torture is not confined to a particular area of the political spectrum.

Of course, calling people torture promoters who have said nothing to indicate they are is also libel. But that's another matter.

[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: ChicagoLoopDweller ]

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Do you support torture if it would be used to save a soldiers life (it might be your own life.)? What a shock they support this. I am surprised the number isn't even higher. If anything, these numbers seem low.

How many people here wouldn't let someone get beat on if they thought it would save their best friends life?

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Well, we could debate about this all day, I'm sure,

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Actually, I wasn't referring to you at all in that post, .

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Really? Why then did you say

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Originally posted by Michelle:
"I'm going to tell both of you to take any right-wing torture promotion or justification elsewhere.

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Seems like you were referring to me (and the other guy as well).

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Everything isn't about you, surprisingly enough.

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Totally uncalled for, since you did refer to me as a person who has torture-promoting views.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
As for you, I didn't say you were promoting torture here.

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In order to "take any right-wing torture promotion or justification elsewhere", one must first possess them, yes? So in fact, you did suggest that I hold these views.

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Originally posted by Rant:

Does anyone here really, truly think that these words that I wrote imply a promotion of torture:

"I wonder if the three U.S. soldiers who were kidnapped/abducted/whatever last week by insurgents/terrorists/whatever think torture is a good thing, cause I bet they're gettin' some right now."?

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Well, except to someone who has a brain made of granite, it is perfectly obvious that your statement is designed to divert from the charges of complicity in torture against the occupiers, and indeed to raise the bogeymen that, "Well, our G.I.s get tortured too! So there!"

Your statement is very deliberately duplicitous. No one defends torture in the abstract. Some people defend torture of their enemies. The same people do not defend their enemies torturing them! Your little "joke" is designed to minimize and heap scorn on the international consensus that torture is unacceptable in all circumstances.

And your efforts to cary on with your duplicity by getting aggressive and bullying Michelle (a vain goal, might I add) is pretty despicable.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Ensuring that right-wing, pro-war, anti-human-rights drivel doesn't get passed off as legit commentary on babble is not "wrong" for a moderator.

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I absolutely agree 100% with this position. However, that is not the issue. The issue is you accusing me of having a pro-torture point-of-view. I have demonstrated no such POV, and proven so in the above posts. And you just want me to move on...

I understand that you are the moderator and can silence me at your whim. Fair enough. But...

THIS IS FOR EVERYONE ELSE ON BABBLE: How would you like to be falsely accused of something evil and get no apology? Don't think it can't happen to you. Demand better. Demand moderation that is progressive AND fair.

[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: Rant ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rant:

THIS IS FOR EVERYONE ELSE ON BABBLE: How would you like to be falsely accused of something evil and get no apology? Don't think it can't happen to you. Demand better. Demand moderation that is progressive AND fair.

[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: Rant ]

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Originally posted by Briguy:
So, how about them soldiers? Is their training defective, are they born defective, or is it the stress of an impossible situation that leads to the complete lack of morality among the troops?

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Originally posted by Briguy:
I shudder to think of what's going to happen to American society when these broken souls are returned to the populace. The prisons are already full.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
I watched CNN today (the sound was off and I was at the gym) and they were profiling some charity that made houses that were accommodating to the wounded Iraq war guys. I admit, I found it profoundly disturbing. One young man had part of his brain blow up and lived essentially as a vegetable. Another had no legs. My heart felt for them. It was hard not too. Inside all I was thinking is "Bush, you disgusting war criminal" and how horrible it was that nothing is going to be done about him, and his cabal of criminals: Wolfowitz, Kissenger, Cheney, Schultz - the whole lot of the PNAC crowd. They did this. They should pay.

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They could only do these criminal acts in a permissable political environment which glorifies warmongering. Even now, with a few exceptions, the leading contenders for leadership of the two political parties do not speak of the war in terms of its immoral origins. They speak about doing the war 'differently.' In fact, they spend much of their energy stressing their potential war making abilities should they become elected. Anyone who quibbles about the whole concept of making war is simply not electable in the US. Through the conditioning of the American mindset by the fear based xenophobic media, there constantly has to be a state of war against something to make them feel as though somebody is acting on their behalf to counter the threats that constantly bombard them as they sit on their tv sofas. A politician who might offer alternatives is vilified in the media as soft. Bush and the PNAC may be a criminal cabal, however they have many accomplices. They're called voters.

[ 28 May 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

[ 28 May 2007: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:

Unfortunately, I think the people who are going to bear the brunt of it are going to be the people you can victimize without going to prison for it much of the time - spouses and children. I can't imagine that people could come back from months or years of watching or participating in brutal killings and rapes and beatings and the like, and not come away from that without being some kind of fucked up by it, whether your reaction is desensitization and indifference, or bottled up rage.

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Originally posted by Westerly:
For the rest of his life, he never again spoke another word.

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Originally posted by unionist:
Maybe he just had nothing important to communicate. There may be a lesson in that for some of us.

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Originally posted by unionist:
Maybe he just had nothing important to communicate. There may be a lesson in that for some of us.

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Originally posted by Westerly:
But the crazy thing was he couldn't stop TYPING!

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