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Author Topic: Israel Ignores Poverty
terratech
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posted 04 September 2007 01:45 PM      Profile for terratech   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just how far can this countries arrogance go, but hey dont think I`m ignoring the many other countries that are ignoring those that are poor. Have a Read and tell me what you think...

Israel Ignores Poverty
Raw News Raw Rap


From: UK | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 04 September 2007 02:00 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The level of poverty in Israel, the discrimination against the Arab minority (whose poverty levels are far higher than the rest of the population), the plight of Holocaust survivors living in desperate straits, are all deplorable.

But it's a capitalist society which is militarized to the hilt. I see little evidence for singling out Israel as being any more "arrogant" in respect of its poor than Canada or the United States or many others. In fact, I don't know how the poverty level is measured, but it's not that long ago that Israel surpassed the U.S. in terms of poverty. And in the U.S., there is much controversy regarding official poverty measures, with some experts suggesting 30% of U.S. households have economic hardship which should be described as "poverty level".

So I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 04 September 2007 02:20 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I see little evidence for singling out Israel as being any more "arrogant" in respect of its poor than Canada or the United States or many others.

You are right. In fact, the report cited says this:

quote:
Showing only a slight decrease in poverty rates for the past year the report states that the percentage of families living under the poverty line has dropped from 20.6% (2005) to 20% and overall the total percentages for Israelis had dropped from 24.7% to 24.5 per cent.

I doubt that the same could be said for the US, Canada, or many Arab states either, for that matter.

[ 04 September 2007: Message edited by: jeff house ]


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Michelle
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posted 04 September 2007 02:22 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
So I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.

I'm not either.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
terratech
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posted 05 September 2007 01:50 AM      Profile for terratech   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hiya everyone... new to the board and as a first issue I was trying to gauge the responce to the issue of poverty. It dose`nt look good but there again I am biased or it could just be the time of the week.

Living in the UK my expereince of publising this issue gets the same responce except from reformist but I would think this is exactly the Bread & Butter issue that all activists should be concerned about.

From the stand piont of an Anarchist I want to change the system, convincing someone that they wont be worse off under a change has to start somewhere as activism worldwide suffers from the constant dribble of `we have it sorted` from the politician (Of any country.


From: UK | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 05 September 2007 03:19 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Terratech you have made things clear as mud.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: ohara ]


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Michelle
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posted 05 September 2007 03:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by terratech:
Hiya everyone... new to the board and as a first issue I was trying to gauge the responce to the issue of poverty. It dose`nt look good but there again I am biased or it could just be the time of the week.

Or, maybe it's the fact that you somehow picked Israel out of the blue to discuss poverty about.

If I'm not mistaken, pretty much every country ignores poverty. This is a Canadian discussion forum, and there are tons of threads on poverty in Canada here. There are even lots of threads about poverty in the US.

I guess people are wary when people post an article out of the blue about poverty in Israel. I mean, what does poverty in Israel have to do with people in North America? The conflict between Israel and Palestine is interesting to us because it's a world conflict that affects the politics in many countries around the world. Poverty in Israel, on the other hand, is more of a domestic issue.

Of course, lots of people are interested in poverty in other countries as it relates to political movements that we can learn from (e.g. when the poor of Latin America rise up and take over their governments). But that's not really the kind of context you've given in posting this article. I mean, is there some amazing anti-poverty movement in Israel that has interesting lessons for international solidarity? Or is the point just to say, hey, Israel has people living in poverty?

So, it makes people wonder why you'd bother posting it, and what relevance it has. The only point you seemed to be making is that poverty shows Israel's arrogance. Well, yeah. It shows pretty much every country's arrogance, I suppose.

[ 05 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
terratech
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posted 06 September 2007 06:05 AM      Profile for terratech   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you for the reply`s... Clearly i have a long way to go when `Poverty` can only be described as a `Domestic issue` and since this is the International News Board Michelle, it isn`t that bright to start shouting about it being only a Canadian Discussion Forum - Wheres your Solidarity with the rest of your Brother & Sisters of the world.

quote:
Of course, lots of people are interested in poverty in other countries as it relates to political movements that we can learn from (e.g. when the poor of Latin America rise up and take over their governments). But that's not really the kind of context you've given in posting this article. I mean, is there some amazing anti-poverty movement in Israel that has interesting lessons for international solidarity?

Beleive me i wish I could put every story in context of the overall picture but as you see it comes from a start up site, there to encourage discussion and widen the arguement so other are encouraged to start those movements and build up expereince.

quote:
is the point just to say, hey, Israel has people living in poverty?

Yes as many people dont know, as an activist you have have chosen to ignore that people do need infomation. It also helps people relate to what is happening there as much as in Africa or even Canada.


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quelar
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posted 06 September 2007 06:56 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First off Terratech welcome to the board.

Second I'd be cautious about your tone of your posts, I'm not sure if you're intentionally trying to sound condescending, but it does. I haven't read enough of your stuff yet, so I'll give you a pass. As for Michelle, she was voted 2006's Smartest Babbler in the International News and Politics Forum, so don't go around calling her 'not bright'.

Third, take a look around here, the reason why people get their backs up about a post of Israel Poverty is because is sounds like a directed attack against Israel (while ignoring the poverty in every other country in the world), and there are already enough general attacks on Isreali policy around here. Talk about poverty all you want, just don't single out any one country as most countries suck at it.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
terratech
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posted 06 September 2007 02:41 PM      Profile for terratech   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hello quelar, Thank You for your welcome, but got to say you ort to read what i said and not what is imagined .... first I said what michellesaid was not bright, i do not know her therefore i have no opinion of her...

Your rant into her credential does not impress me and as for mine I have none - does this in any way make me inferior in your eyes? because that is condesending and smacks of `Hey look out for the foreigner`... or am I reading to much into it.

Did you actually read the article and understand it - apparently not as there was no attack on Israel.. The article puts all countries under the same umbrella - read the ending...

quote:
These figures in line with many other governments’ reports and census show that the only stabilised picture is the one where they have looked after their voting base through increasing the divided to the rich in their respective countries. The facts capture an image of the politicised Israel in which turmoil is guaranteed; poverty a precursor to violence will put in jeopardy peace, as myths, distortions and lies serves the manipulator reinvigorating a hate filled backlash against those who are oppressed

As in Israel there will be a backlash from from the poor of the world who are oppressed. Now please figure out what market this story is aimed at and take into account the gist of the site.

So we agree on the final piont that most countries suck as far as their policy is on Poverty. I wont say that your not bright because all you will probably say is that you where the runner up.....


From: UK | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 07 September 2007 07:00 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by terratech:
Hello quelar, Thank You for your welcome, but got to say you ort to read what i said and not what is imagined .... .... I wont say that your not bright because all you will probably say is that you where the runner up.....

Ok, so to my knowledge there aren't any babble awards, I was being a smartass, just defending Michelle, which I'm struggling with why I need to, but there seem to be a fair bit of attacks here these days, so I'm just stepping in when I need to.

I completely understand the point of the article, and who it's targetted to, I'm just saying that it's unnecessary and unhelpful to bring it up in a way that seems to only be targetting Israel.

As for you being inferior, I pass no judgement yet


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DrConway
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posted 29 September 2007 04:33 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I reviewed an old thread (see here) and I noticed that the poverty rate in Israel was quoted at about 25% a few years ago. That's pretty high for a country with a relatively advanced economy (light industry, a sophisticated financial system, and so on).
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 September 2007 06:20 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And your point DrConway other than to once again specifically target Israel?
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Ken Burch
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posted 29 September 2007 08:26 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If we are saying that Israel ignores poverty, we must also say that the Palestinian Authority, an authority that has created no social welfare apparatus whatsoever, also ignores it.

In fact, this failure on the part of the PA and Fatah has been one of the key reasons why Hamas gained support among rank and file Palestinians. They set up their OWN social service network. There is a comparison to be made with the Black Panthers in the U.S. and their free hot breakfast program for poor kids in the late 1960's and early 1970's.

The secular wing of the Palestinian movement needs to weed out corruption and to put social welfare and jobs programs on an equal priority with "the armed struggle". Otherwise, the lower themselves to the worst of the Zionists, fighting for a few hectares of land for the SAKE of fighting for a few hectares of land.


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Cueball
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posted 29 September 2007 11:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
If we are saying that Israel ignores poverty, we must also say that the Palestinian Authority, an authority that has created no social welfare apparatus whatsoever, also ignores it.

This is a rediculous statement.

Between 1999, and today, Israel has systematically destroyed all of the infrastructure which made it possible for the PA to operate as a functioning government, corrupt or no. Notable among these destructive acts, have been robbing the Bank of Palestine, destroying the PA TV, rocketing the police stations, blockading the Presidents headquarters for months on end, strangling the basic system of commerce and education through the imposition of checkpoints and barriers, they even stole the PA police jeeps.

How can you forget the completely gratuitous attack upon the Gaza Strip power plant last year?

What you appear to be trying to do is appear balanced, what you are actually doing is spreading misinformation.

Hamas is popular because the PA are seen a stooges for Israel, who were unable to do anything about the Israeli occupation. PA security chiefs being paid of by Israel to do their dirty work. It is the quisling nature of the PA, which is being talked about when Palestinians are talking about corruption, not petty pilfering of government funds, though the too are seen as linked.

[ 29 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 September 2007 11:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is a better list from the BBC:

Rebuilding the Palestinian Authority

  • At the education ministry the IDF destroyed all the files on student's results for the last eight years
  • At the higher education ministry the Israeli army took computer hard drives and destroyed the rest of the computers
  • At the transportation ministry, records on all cars in the West Bank were destroyed
    The land registry building was damaged and its computers taken
  • All Palestinian ministries in Ramallah were ransacked or damaged to some extent except for the ministry of sport and planning
  • Many schools, often used as staging posts by the IDF, were found trashed and vandalised
    Non-governmental organisations, such as human rights groups, seem to have been specifically targeted
  • The broadcast machinery of radio stations was destroyed
  • There have been many reports of looting of private property, but this is relatively minor compared to overall level of destruction.

quote:
The World Bank estimated the figure to be closer to $350m, but that did not include the rebuilding of the security forces and was calculated before the IDF went into Hebron and Jericho.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 September 2007 11:23 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
And your point DrConway other than to once again specifically target Israel?

What do you know about Israel? You don't even know anything about the CJC. I hardly see how someone who seem completely dumbfounded as the the reason an organization he belongs to does what it does, can be relied upon for authorative statements on what is going on, on the other side of the world, or to speculate on the motives on an anonymous internet personality.

[ 29 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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DrConway
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posted 30 September 2007 09:25 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
And your point DrConway other than to once again specifically target Israel?

A poverty rate of around 25% is usually more characteristic of African nations whose governments can't really afford to go against IMF dictates.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 30 September 2007 10:08 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes thank you for your answer...that is once again Israel is the target of your venom
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Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 10:12 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What is venomous about:

quote:
I reviewed an old thread (see here) and I noticed that the poverty rate in Israel was quoted at about 25% a few years ago. That's pretty high for a country with a relatively advanced economy (light industry, a sophisticated financial system, and so on).

????


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N.Beltov
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posted 30 September 2007 10:21 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course, such remarks must be venomous. Just look at the iron logic:

1. All criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.
2. Anti-Semitism is a hate crime.

Therefore,

3. All criticism of Israel is a hate crime and therefore venomous.

What could be clearer?


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Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 10:25 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ahhh, now I understand, and here I was thinking that DrConway was pursing his general interest in the IMF and its activities.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 September 2007 11:13 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, the analogy I was drawing is that the IMF's dictates are usually pursued by countries that have no other choice in order to get the money. But Israel isn't under IMF structural adjustment, so there is no real reason for its government to follow policies that impoverish people.
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Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 12:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, perhaps that is because the IMF didn't have to force the "structural adjustments" upon Israel, perhaps it just caught the neo-liberal wind without coercion. Also perhaps they are getting the money they need elsewhere.
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Ken Burch
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posted 30 September 2007 03:19 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball, I do know that Israel is responsible for the majority of the misery the Palestinian people face.

The point of my post was not to let the Israelis off the hook, or to knowingly spread disinformation.

But, especially in the Nineties, there was a time when Arafat could have used at least some of the huge amounts of money he got to build at least some sort of a social welfare system, at least to plant the seeds. Instead, as has been well documented, the man largely kept personal control of the money and used it for bribes.

This haunts the PA to this day.

It's not disloyalty to the Palestinian cause to point out areas where they do need to change and they do need to learn.


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Ken Burch
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posted 30 September 2007 03:21 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And as for Israel and poverty, what is especially depressing is that, as the popularity of the Olmert government continues to decline, it's likely to be replaced by Netayanhu's even more reactionary Likudniks. There is no excuse for Israelis to be replacing one bad right-wing government with a government that's going to be even further right. Why did these people, some of whom used to have compassion and a sense of social justice, decide to lower themselves to fighting for land for the sake of fighting for land?

They know Bibi's ideas failed before, and thus are doomed to fail again. What the hell are they thinking?

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 03:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
But, especially in the Nineties, there was a time when Arafat could have used at least some of the huge amounts of money he got to build at least some sort of a social welfare system, at least to plant the seeds. Instead, as has been well documented, the man largely kept personal control of the money and used it for bribes.

What do you mean? Most of the infrastructure that was destroyed was built by the PA in the 90's.

And again, you are missing the whole point of what it is that people were talking about when they talked about the corruption of the PA. They were not primarily talking about Arafat's largesse, (though there is an aspect of this) they were talking about the PA becoming the surrogate police force for the Israeli occupation. That is what most Palestinians mean, when they talk about the PA being corrupt.

They mean the PA was bought by the Israelis.

The personal graft or profiteering by PA officials is what is picked up on in the western media (usually as a means of smearing Palestinian organizations,) when Palestinians talk about corruption of the PA and Yasser Arafat, but what is not picked up on that this is seen as an extension of the essential corruption of the Oslo deal, which was seen by many Palestinians as a sell out of their rights.

Its a remarkable piece of media manipulation actually.

Israeli spokesperson: "Arafat was corrupt" = bribery, graft and patronage.

Palestinian: "Arafat was corrupt" = sold out to the Israelis leading to bribery, graft and patronage.

The Palestinian narrative is cut in half, leaving only the parts that undermine the Palestinian movement, and its leadership. Conveniently it is possible to find many Palestinians who will echo the condemnation of the "corrupt" PLO/Fatah/Arafat political axis, however, what they mean by that is interpreted generally only in the terms provided by the pro-Israeli media, not what the Palestinian intend.

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 30 September 2007 04:27 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thread drift: Dude your posts have become a bit strange (in terms of grammer and spelling) are you OK?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 04:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What don't you understand?

Also, my mispellings are legendary, so what's new there?

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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DrConway
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posted 30 September 2007 05:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An interesting look at Israeli Military Spending.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 30 September 2007 05:33 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Um... Actually, they were mainly in the prostitution threads, your last post in this thread is quite good, except for this bit:

"The Palestinian narrative is cut in half, leaving only the parts that undermine the Palestinian movement, and its leadership. Conveniently it is possible to find many Palestinians who will echo the condemnation of the "corrupt" PLO/Fatah/Arafat political axis, however, what they mean by that is interpreted generally only in the terms provided by the pro-Israeli media, not what the Palestinian intend."

There should be an s at the end of intend.

Alright, enough grammer flames, God knows I've made enough grammatical and spelling errors on this board to keep cadres of tigt assed language obssesed geeks busy for a billion years...

Moving back on topic...

Given that Isreal now has more in common ( in terms of poverty anyway) with Yemen, then it does with the great social democracies it wants so badly to emulate, isn't it time the Isreali government stopped giving Villas to xenophobic lunatics in places like Ariel, and started giving financial support to the homeless in Tel aviv?

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 September 2007 05:39 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It may be worthwhile to consider that at one time, Israel was the basis for (theoretically) a new experiment in a socialist system with a relatively homogeneous culturally-conscious group, as noted by Ze'ev Sternhell.

In practice, quite quickly the experiment failed and Israel became quite free-enterprise and abandoned several of the initial socialist tenets that the Histadrut and the Labor party were founded on.

Some more historical perspective.

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 30 September 2007 06:11 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am also aware of the double meaning of corruption in this context.

I'm just trying to find a way to explore this issue that leads to both sides in the dispute finding a real way to deal with poverty.

The Occupation must end, and must end forever, for Palestinians to be able to actually resolve that issue.

And the Palestinians need to establish a set of rules of engagement on their part that avoid giving the Israelis an excuse for more brutality. Can we all agree that there's no good reason to be bombing Sderot anymore? And that there's no longer any justification for attacking civilians on either side?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 September 2007 06:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
And the Palestinians need to establish a set of rules of engagement on their part that avoid giving the Israelis an excuse for more brutality. Can we all agree that there's no good reason to be bombing Sderot anymore? And that there's no longer any justification for attacking civilians on either side?

They could be sitting quietly on the sidewalk and the I"D"F would still invent a reason to shoot at them.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 30 September 2007 07:33 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I realize that. I'm just saying don't give them reasons they don't have to be given.

We know that the Sderot bombings, for example, serve no valid military purpose for the Palestinian side. So why continue them?


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Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 07:37 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They did draw attention to the fact. No bombings no media. If the Palestinians are quite, no one bothers to cover their issue.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 30 September 2007 09:11 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They drew attention to WHAT fact?

Everybody already knew what the Palestinians are being subjected to.

Bombing a town of innocent civilians, most of whom are recent immigrants with no connection whatsoever to the central decisions of the IDF, did not do the Palestinian cause any good.

There has to be another way.

Violence doesn't work in this struggle. If it could have worked, it would have worked by now. Why not admit that bombing Sderot and all other attacks on Israeli civilians don't help Palestinians at all?

Staying with failed methods doesn't make those methods stop failing.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 09:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Everybody already knew what the Palestinians are being subjected to.

This is not true. For twenty year the Palestinians did almost nothing in the face of the Israeli occupation, and no one paid any attention whatsoever.

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 30 September 2007 09:28 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They don't have to make innocent Israeli civilians not exist to make the world know that they exist.

And they haven't been able to do anything with the "awareness of their existence" that killing innocent Israeli civilians gave them.

The world knows they exist. The world is with them. And nobody in Sderot is to blame for their suffering.

Violence no longer helps Palestinians, if it ever did, AND YOU KNOW IT. Why go on defending what YOU know doesn't work?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 30 September 2007 09:31 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

For twenty year the Palestinians did almost nothing in the face of the Israeli occupation, and no one paid any attention whatsoever.

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


BULLSHIT! Millions of people all over the world are in solidarity with Palestine. All bombing Sderot, the city of innocent bystanders, does is give the enemies of the Palestinian cause propaganda gold.

The more violent they become, they more powerless Palestinians become. Can't even YOU see that clearly now?


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Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 09:37 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Your desire to be seen as the honest even-handed broker leads you to completely distorting the reality of what is going on. Someone is injured in Sderot, and in the mean time 15 or 20 Gazan's are killed, and you want to make it out that there is some kind of balance of mutual evil.

It is not that way at all. These rockets being fired are of the type that Werner Von Braun used to make when he was doing his first experiments in his back yard when he was a teenager. They are not accurate, nor are they particularly lethal.

More Israelis are killed every day by car accidents than by these toys.

And the Israeli right is really happy that you are out here suggesting that these toys equate with Israel's constant use of the most lethal and advanced killing machines to kill Palestinians.

Furthermore, you also maintian the lie that Palestinians as a whole are liable for the actions of the more militant groups, which for the most part are completely beyond the control of centralized authority, and you speak as if they are one, homogenous mass, which must account for each other as such.

Simply put: there will always be some Palestinians who will kill Israelis. To predicate a negotiated settlement on the complete ceasation of violence, or pretend that such will be possible for the Palestinian to enforce, (as you are doing) is simply to obscure the reality, and feed the mythology that justifies the occupation.

The central myth you are substantiating is that it is Palestinian violence which causes the occupation, and not the occupation that causes the violence.

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 30 September 2007 10:19 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree that the Occupation has caused MUCH of the violence.

I agree that collective punishment of Palestinians for acts of individual Palestinian violence must end.

I agree that Israel must withdraw from EVERY millimeter of the Territories, and that all settlements must dismantled, and that all theft of Palestinian water must stop, and that the olive trees senseless destroyed by the Israeli army must be replanted, with full compensation for all suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people.

But it is equally clear that the violence is completely ineffective in ENDING the Occupation.

As the Irish Republican Army saw that the armed struggle was no longer a valid tactic in Northern Ireland, so must all the Palestinians see that indiscriminate violence, at least, can never be of use again. It is not asking too much to at least call on Palestinians to ONLY attack Israeli soldiers.

The Occupation is evil. The Israeli government is the primary author of the suffering of the Palestinian people.

But it does the Palestinian people no harm in pointing out that attacks on Israeli civilians simply don't WORK as a tactic. Are the Palestinians ANY closer now to a state as a result of increased violence than they were in the Nineties when they were at least TRYING to use a strategy that didn't alienate millions of potential supporters?

I'm giving the Palestinian cause the solidarity of truth. I know their situation is desperate. This is why I and others, such as people like Michael Lerner and the Tikkun Community, feel obligated to call on that community in its desperation to try other tactics.

The armed struggle in Palestine is at an end in terms of its usefulness. In the hands of some it is a cry of anguish, in the hands of others it is simply macho arrogance in the service of the unachievable goal of driving all Jews out of not only Palestine but also Israel.

And I know that the Palestinian leadership structured is not centralized enough to enforce absolute nonviolence. But that is why the case for alternatives to the existing approach must be made over and over and over again by those of us who are in solidarity with the Palestinian people.

The only just ending to this is two peoples finding some way to co-exist as equals. You and I both know the existing tactics make this less and less possible.

Simply saying "I back the Palestinians no matter WHAT any of them do" isn't meaningful or useful support.

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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Cueball
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posted 30 September 2007 10:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is nothing that can be done about the violence. No one can stop it. If Hamas effectively ends its participation in violence, then another organization will be formed to perpetrate it. Even your primary example proves the point, the IRA agrees to a cease-fire, and here comes the Real IRA.

This is a silly demand. It will not happen. You are promoting a completely unrealistic, unachievable and impractical solution the basis of which plays into the mythology that is used to justify the Israeli occupation.

I don't see why we are talking about it.

[ 30 September 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 12:20 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, we're talking about it because all the issues in the I/P area are deeply interconnected.

I'm NOT calling on Palestinians to surrender. And I'm certainly not in the position to be making DEMANDS on them or anybody else. I'm expressing an opinion and offering my analysis.

And of course it isn't possible to expect every single act of Palestinian violence to stop, in the same way as it isn't possible to expect every act of fascistic, bigoted Israeli settler
violence to stop.

My point is that new tactics are needed.

Saying this does the Palestinian cause no harm.

As I see it, Both sides need to make a huge amount of changes. The Israelis need to get out of every inch of Palestinian territory NOW. The Palestinians need to try to get each faction, if possible, to agree to focus their attacks solely on the Israeli military, the only legitimate target of violent resistance.

And BOTH communities need to accept that it isn't possible to make the other community leave the entire area. Palestinians need to accept that Israelis have the right to remain forever in Israel proper(the pre-1967 boundaries)and to remain their in peace and safety. Israelis need to accept that Palestinians have a right to a strong and viable state comprising every inch of the Territories.

And both sides need to accept that they're not going to get to humiliate their enemy any longer.

There is an Israeli peace camp, and the current Palestinian tactics have done nothing but politically marginalize them. The repeated Hamas tactic of starting coordinate bombings of innocent civilians DURING Israeli election campaigns was simply stupid. Even YOU would have to agree that no good came to the Palestinians of a strategy that simply goaded Israelis into electing the most intransigent governments possible.

And the Israelis, for their part, were wrong to spend decades demonizing anybody who supported a Palestinian state as anti-Israeli and essentially antisemitic. Even Stockholm and ohara, I'd hope, would acknowledge that error.

The Israelis are the oppressors.
The Palestianians are the victims.

But it's never a good idea to knowlingly do something that helps your oppressor oppress you. That's all I've been trying to say.

Sorry if truth disturbs you that much.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 09:38 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But it's never a good idea to knowlingly do something that helps your oppressor oppress you. That's all I've been trying to say.


Theoretically yes. However, the Palistinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have spent 40 years being shot at, starved, imprisoned, robbed and degraded. Under such conditions, wouldn't you pick up a gun and fight?

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 10:51 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd be careful who I aimed it at. I'd try not to hit people on the other side who were supporting my cause.

Nothing I've said here is anymore hostile to the Palestinian cause than opposition to necklacing was to the antiapartheid cause.

The issue is that those who support Palestinians need to be able to offer new and better tactics.
I know Palestinians are desperate. That's why they desperately need alternative approaches that might actually have a chance of success.
Clearly, the armed struggle will NBVER free them. We all know that by now. So we need to help them find a better way. This isn't about surrender or purism. It's about finding the way to liberation.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 11:13 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The issue is that those who support Palestinians need to be able to offer new and better tactics.

Like what?


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quelar
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posted 01 October 2007 11:20 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Peaceful resistance, the tool of many non violent groups had utterly failed at various points in the Palestinian resistance.

If you try to block a bulldozer from plowing down your house, you get run over. If you chain yourself to a tree to stop them from destroying your orchards, you get plowed over. If you approach the check points with a peaceful group, you get shot at. If you peacefully protest the Isreali wall being built, you end up in jail indefinitely etc, etc, etc..

None of these have worked mainly due to the fact that the media rarely, if ever, reports one or two deaths of paletinians, we only hear about big raids. So, no reports, no world outrage.


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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 11:21 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A lot of them involve things we can be doing out here.

In addition to divestment, we should, for example be pushing Western governments to freeze Israeli assets.

We should help the Palestinians organize a series of general strikes, and provide them with camcorders or even celphones with cameras to document what the IDF has done to them.

We can stress, and do so correctly, that Palestinians need finally to make a distinction between Israelis and "Jews". Even those who want a unitary state need to make it clear that this would be a secular state in which Arabs and Jews would live as equals and there would not be mass deportations.

We can help draft a "People's Charter" that would describe what the new Palestinian state OR what a unitary state would be like, so alarmist opponents would not have a strong case.

And on the armed method, fine, protect yourselves, but reserve the initiation of force for encounters with the IDF. NEVER...WITH...INNOCENT...CIVILIANS...
If it's wrong for the Israelis to kill bystanders and family members, it goes the other way as well.

I don't have all the ideas myself.
I don't claim to.
But we out here have the space to help generate them that Palestinians on the ground don't.

And quelar, everything you can say about the ineffectiveness of nonviolence in the Palestinian cause can ALSO be said about the equal ineffectiveness of violence.

I'm not calling for anybody to give up anything that's actually done any good. And I think we can all agree that the existing tactics will NEVER work in Palestine if they haven't worked yet, after 40 years or more.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 11:23 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Another possibility might be to try to do cross community organizing of the Israeli and Palestinian poor.
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 11:39 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wouldn't it be difficult for a poor person from Haifa to meet with a poor person from Ramallah?
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DrConway
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posted 01 October 2007 11:52 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wait 'till you get told it's "demonic" to insist that Israeli assets be frozen.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 11:56 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Wait 'till you get told it's "demonic" to insist that Israeli assets be frozen.

Did someone actually tell you that?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 12:21 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We can stress, and do so correctly, that Palestinians need finally to make a distinction between Israelis and "Jews". Even those who want a unitary state need to make it clear that this would be a secular state in which Arabs and Jews would live as equals and there would not be mass deportations.

Many palestinians have made that destiction. The media ignores them, just as they ignore the Israeli peace camp.

When was the last time you heard Hanan Ashrawi on the Ceeb?

Has Mustapha Bargouti ever had a chance to appear On Larry King Live?

Has CNN ever done a story on Abdel Shafi?

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 12:49 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We can help draft a "People's Charter" that would describe what the new Palestinian state OR what a unitary state would be like, so alarmist opponents would not have a strong case.

The PLO had a charter which ruled out the expulsion of Isreali Jews, the goverment of Israel ignored it and insisted that Arafat wanted to destroy Isreal.

The PA has a constitution which recognizes Isreal. The Isreali Government ignored it and said Arafat wanted to destroy Isreal.

Peices of paper, (charters, peace treaties etc.) have given the Palistinians nothing.

As for strikes, sit ins and the like, how are you supposed to arrange an effective strike, when the strikers can easily be arrested at checkpoints, and half the Palestinian labour force is out of work?

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 02:43 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"Where is the Palestinian Gandhi?" is a quite popular question, especially abroad. You won't often hear it asked (with the inevitable self-righteous shrug) here in Israel: after all, the Israeli culture itself worships violence, with the semantic field of "war" being the richest in the modern Hebrew language, with militarism as the state religion, and with popular wisdom expressed in rules of thumb such as "where force won't do, try more force."

The Palestinian Gandhi

by Ran HaCohen


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 03:07 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wasn't calling for a Palestinian Gandhi. I know sainthood can't be expected from an oppressed people.

The issue isn't the moral high ground as much as it is effective tactics. Yes, the way they're doing it is the way they've always done it. And the status quo methods have NEVER WORKED! Got it?

If the armed struggle could have worked, Palestine would be free already.

Let's have positive suggestions for new approaches here.

Let's those of us from outside brainstorm on this.

I'm not calling for surrender. Please stop implying that, ok?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 03:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Let's those of us from outside brainstorm on this.

You just have no idea how patronizing this is? You don't think for a minute that many Palestinians, have in fact thought of non-violent means of resistance, and acted on it, repeatedly, doing mass peaceful demonstrations, petitions, court challenges and the like.

The point is that these kinds of activties are uniformly quashed, and in the cases where their is no violence you don't hear about them. This is why you think Palestinians don't do them. It is because you don't hear about it because no one was injured or killed.

So you have the false impression that these modes of resistance have not been tried, when the fact is that the great majority of Palestinian resistance is actually very passive.

For example Dr. Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi's first resistance action, before joing Hamas was organizing a tax strike against Israel, on the premise that Palestinians were being made to pay for their own repression. This initiative, among the many other completely legal and peaceful means used by various Palestinian organizations inevitably disappear in a media landscape where only the death of Israelis are considered worthwhile for coverage on the 6:00 o'clock news.

Read the article CMOT posted, in detail and tell us what you think of passive resistance and Bil'in.

quote:
We've now got a clear confirmation of what Palestinian and Israeli peace activists have been saying all along: the Israeli army would not tolerate a Gandhi-style resistance. Someone up there in the occupation echelons must have studied Ben Kingsley's film long before "the Gandhi Project" got started and reached the conclusion that nonviolent resistance is not in Israel's interest. To thwart this threat, Israel employs soldiers whose task is to turn a peaceful demonstration into a violent one, by infiltrating it undercover and throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. During the demonstration, the army uses these stones as a pretext to break the demonstration by force, using tear gas, salt, or rubber-coated bullets and live ammunition. In the aftermath, this stone-throwing – pictured by army photographers who surely don't miss the stones thrown by their own comrades – enters the world media as propaganda, depicting the peaceful demonstrators as dangerous stone-throwers.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 03:28 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But in the end the residents were of Bil'in were at least partially successful. Why was this the case?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 03:28 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I realize that the passive resistance acts that do occur don't get the attention they need at present.

Those who are in the Palestine support community outside Palestine need to be more effective about publicizing the nonviolent resistance that does occur. We need to help shape the narrative through getting the truth out.

I'm sorry if I sounded patronizing. The intent was to help. I was meaning to spur people out here to other ideas, not to be sanctimonious towards the Palestinians themselves.

But answer me this...

since we KNOW that the armed struggle methods simply don't advance the cause, don't increase positive awareness of the Palestinian community, and don't, let's be honest, achieve anything, why even bother defending them? We don't need to call for Palestinians to be saints or martyrs, but we can provide ideas to help augment their own.

The existing tactics simply don't work. Can you at least acknowledge this?

Let's use the power of our minds and our hearts to help find the answers. We have the space to discuss this and think about it that they don't, being in the heat of daily struggle. That's no discredit to them, it's simple reality. And it's a reality WE can help change.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 03:36 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why focus on the violence narrative at all, condemning it or supporting it? All that does is bring focus to that narrative.

I think I would chose other means, where I in the situation that Palestinians find themselves. That is what I like to believe. On the other hand I don't see any point in joining in the chorus of voices condemning the violence of some Palestinians.

What purpose does it serve?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 03:36 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It serves the purpose of achieving a Palestinian victory, THAT is what it serves.

It's not about moral condemnation, it's about acknowledging that the existing tactics are a failure and that others are needed. It's about helping the Palestinians, not harming. Blind support doesn't help them.

Also, I don't really like the term "passive resistance". This implies that nonviolent or political methods are automatically less courageous or less active than those involving violence.

How about "alternative resistance" or "positive resistance" instead?

The biggest problem with using armed methods is that, let's face it, the Palestinians will never be able to outshoot the IDF and the insane fascist settlers. Therefore, the logical analysis would be not to even bother using the armed methods for other than strictly defensive purposes, because they are doomed to defeat as an offensive strategy from the start.


Can anyone seriously question this analysis with regard to Palestine?

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 03:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 03:49 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So you think they should go on getting themselves killed in pointless and hopeless armed skirmishes that have no positive effects?

Are you really sure you LIKE Palestinians?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 03:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have already pointed out again and again, that pretty much the only time Palestinian issues get covered at all is when Israelis are killed.

Please find me a recent article in the mainstream media about the recent Gaza demonstration of children protesting the Israeli occupations impact on their education?


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 04:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

This is the best I could find. September 27th, available at Liveleak.com


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 04:02 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, the killings get them coverage. But it is never useful coverage, it is never coverage that they are able to use to ADVANCE their cause.

That kind of coverage is always about why somebody became a "martyr", NEVER about the misery Palestinians have to live under, NEVER a case for supporting the Palestinians. You need to face that reality.

"All publicity is good publicity" doesn't cut it in this situation.

We need to find other ways to get their story out. The ball is largely in our court.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 04:02 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's blank...
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 04:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It works for me. Probably requires Flash.
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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 04:05 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's good footage. I agree we need to get that out to the media more. Thanks for posting it, Cueball.

A clip like that is more useful than 800 rockets launched at innocent people in Sderot.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 04:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Yes, the killings get them coverage. But it is never useful coverage, it is never coverage that they are able to use to ADVANCE their cause.

What do you mean its not usefull coverage. About the only time you ever discuss this issue, it is to talk about Palestinian violence. It is the only theme that seems to interst you.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 04:08 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
That's good footage. I agree we need to get that out to the media more. Thanks for posting it, Cueball.

A clip like that is more useful than 800 rockets launched at innocent people in Sderot.


Yes, and that clip, is available only at liveleak.com and has never been seen on any major network ever. Nor will it ever be.

And the many many scenes like that, that occur every year are also never covered, and you have never brought one to be discussed here, because they simply are not available in the media, and so all you know about is the violence, and if it were not for the violence, and you insistance on discussing it you would never have seen that clip.


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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 04:20 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I did see it in this discussion, but that didn't have to be the only way I learned about it.

We need to work with the Palestinians about getting footage of their lives and the truth of their struggle to the media. A clip clearinghouse that sends these to the media each week would help. Calling press conferences to discuss these would also help.

But almost nobody who saw stories about the violence then went on to see this kind of story.
This discussion did lead ME to it, and again I thank you for posting it, but you posted it because we were discussing tactics, not because ineffective armed struggle methods were used.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 04:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
I did see it in this discussion, but that didn't have to be the only way I learned about it.

But the fact is that the way you learned about it was because you were harping on about Palestinian violence on this blog. That is the reality.


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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 04:30 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The reality is that the Palestinian narrative receives insuffecient coverage in the mainstream media. The reality is also that coverage about random violence and attacks on innocent civilians don't improve that coverage IN the MSM.

The need is to get the story out, NOT to defend failed tactics.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 04:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually they do increase the profile of the issue, and as a result various discussion take place all over the world, where the truth is allowed some measure of hearing.

The tactic has not failed at all. It has succeded in getting your attention. It is the only thing you ever talk about when this issue comes up. Repeatedly. It is all that interests you.

Fortuantely there are people here to correct the distortion you are helping to foment.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 04:48 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I discuss the totality of the issue.

Tactics are inseparable from the rest.

And if, after all this time, you still can't see that the armed struggle method ONLY benefits the Israeli Right, you are the one who is out of touch with reality.

Everytime something like that is done(like the completely unjustified bombing of that pizza parlor)AIPAC, CAMERA/FLAME, CJC and the rest play it like a Stradivarius. What does THAT tell you?

I want the Palestinians to win their freedom. This is why I see it as essential to get them and their "supporters" to abandon failed tactics.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I want a democratic, secular, preferably socialist Palestinian state. You'd settle for something CALLED "Palestine", even if it were run permanently by Hamas, even though a Hamas state would have to be a permanently oppressive and reactionary state with no rights for women, gays and lesbians and non-Muslims, and with no progressive policies ever implemented.

A "state", in other words, where history was over before it began.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 04:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And so you propose over and over again that Palestinians should not use violence, when you know that violence is completely impossible to prevent.

Its silly. In the mean time you are completely oblivious to the fact that palestinian violence is the smallest part of the resistance, and in fact the main thrust of Palestinian resistance is peaceful, and you suggest that they should do what they are already doing, because you don't even know that is what they are doing because people like you are constantly advetising the violence.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 04:56 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And if, after all this time, you still can't see that the armed struggle method ONLY benefits the Israeli Right, you are the one who is out of touch with reality.

Ken, the Isreali right advocates for the distruction of the Palestinian people whether they use peacful tactics or not.


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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 05:00 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, but more discipline on the Palestinian side would go a long way towards discrediting the Israeli position in the international and especiall the American sphere.

We were WINNING the arguement in the Nineties when some restraint was being shown in the use of violence. Since its use has increased, all ground has been lost. Supporters have been alienated. The Israeli Right has gone from strength to strength.

The last three right-wing victories in Israeli elections are directly due to attacks on innocent Israeli civilians during election campaigns. Hamas seemed to want to MAKE Israel vote for the most intransigent government possible. Does this make ANY sense to you at all, Cueball? Did pushing Israel to the Right do the Palestinian cause ANY good whatsoever?

I'M not the one giving aid and comfort to the enemies of Palestine.

And I agree, Cueball, that I didn't know as much about nonviolent resistance within Palestine as I should have. And I thank you for informing me about that. But you didn't fire a rocket into my living room, we just had a discussion in a webforum.

The issue is getting the story out. It needs to be gotten out better. On that, we agree.
We differ on what that takes.

But your attacks on me and your false arguement that I'm hurting the Palestinians with my posts here don't serve the Palestinian cause in any meaningful sense.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 05:15 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We were WINNING the arguement in the Nineties when some restraint was being shown in the use of violence. Since its use has increased, all ground has been lost. Supporters have been alienated. The Israeli Right has gone from strength to strength.

The peacenicks were winning!? After Oslo, the settlements expanded by leaps and bounds.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 05:21 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There were more settlements, but there was also greater opposition to those settlements and massive political pressure grew to stop them. The problem was that Ehud Barak's government was behind the curve.

But the increasing use of armed struggle methods after about 1999 badly weakened the Israeli peace camp, and nothing that hurts the Israeli peace camp is ever to the good of the Palestinians, let me remind you. Some posters here act as if the demonization of Israeli doves after 1999 doesn't even matter, that it is no big deal that the hawks and the racists and the maximalists in Israei society were given huge propaganda victories by the Al-Aksa Martyrs and Hamas, while Arafat was isolated and marginalized and peace and justice supporters in Israel were demonized and left powerless.

Did ANY good come of this?

Did the Palestinians benefit in any meaningful way from those in Israel who were trying to do right by them being discredited by increased attacks on innocent Israeli civilians?

It's not morality, it's tactics. And the fact that the next Israeli election is likely a race between Ehud Olmert and Binyamin Netanyahu is proof that my arguement is valid.

If you want to win, don't make life impossible for your friends.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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N.Beltov
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posted 01 October 2007 05:47 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My apologies if I have missed the same remark from another babbler ... but it is surely worth mentioning that the methods of non-violent resistance are working. I mean, of course, the boycott of Israel campaign. As one observer has it, The Tide is Turning.

It goes without saying that the boycott is opposed by the same degree of venom, from the same sources, as other forms of resistance are. And for the same underlying reasons.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 05:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know that the second Intifada started a series of peaceful protests against the settlement expansion. These were crushed of course, and the media coverage was almost nil.
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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 05:52 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Which means the issue is better media strategy, better methods to GET the story out.

Blowing up pizza parlors DOESN'T get the story out. Blowing up supermarkets DOESN'T get the story out. Bombings during Israeli election campaigns DON'T get the story out.

Why not look at it as an issue of what must be done to better raise the awareness, instead of simply repeating the meaningless observation that bombs bring out the cameras?

Especially since they cameras don't actually GET the Palestinian story when their covering the bombings.

It's about effectiveness, it's about improving exposure.

It's not about me being finicking or about outsider sanctimony or about "breaking eggs to make an omelet".

Please listen to what I'm actually saying, instead of what you'd like to pretend I'm saying.

And Beltov, thanks for reminding us about the success of the boycott campaign. This shows what alternative strategies can do.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 06:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Which means the issue is better media strategy, better methods to GET the story out.

How are the reporters supposed to get in? Right now Israel has banned all reporters from the entering Gaza.

Do you begin to get a picture of what is going on?


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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 06:08 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I understand that reporters are kept out. This is why things like the Internet have to be used, celphone video(as in Burma), things like that.

But then again, while the press is kept out, bombings won't get them let in. So your arguement trips itself up on its own logic there.

I know the situation is desperate. This is why I'm saying that it is desperately important to find tactics that work in the situation.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 06:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This from 2002...

Six West Bank cities declared off-limits to press

quote:
Since Friday, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have declared at least six West Bank towns "closed military areas" and therefore off-limits to the press. The six towns are Ramallah, Qalqiliya, Jenin, Tulkarem, Nablus, and Bethlehem.

In Bethlehem, journalists told CPJ that access to the town's center remained extremely limited and that the IDF continues to block journalists from approaching the Church of the Nativity, where some 200 Palestinians, among them several armed militants, have taken refuge.


Meawhile, some Israeli guy stubs his toe on a gardening tool left in the middle of road by a careless Palestinian, and the people from the Israeli press office are there escorting the AP photographer in so he can ge closeups of the horror.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 06:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
I understand that reporters are kept out. This is why things like the Internet have to be used, celphone video(as in Burma), things like that.

The only thing you are doing with the internet is denouncing Palestinian violence. I can get that from Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, on any given day.


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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 06:23 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's part of what I'm doing,

But I've spent just as much time in this thread and other thread denouncing the Occupation.

I'm also working here and other places to propose alternate strategies, calling for a more aggressive effort to get the Palestinian message into the MSM, and trying to provide in general positive suggestions for a struggle that is clearly, at the moment, failing to gain any ground at all.

There need to be new protests against the sealing-off of Palestine to the media.

There need to be new presentations to the media and the public about the truth of the Palestinian struggle.

More people need to go to Palestine, if they can, and help document the reality.

I didn't say I personally had ALL the answers. That, unlike anything I've actually said, would be patronizing.

Simply cheerleading for the status quo among Palestinians, as you do, is NOT supporting them.

I'm willing to do more. I'd like to. Don't assume I'm not. There's a lot to do.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 06:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The alternative strategies are already in place. Peaceful protests happen almost everyday. The more effective media campaign, might be a little more effective if it were not for the fact that the IDF has destroyed the NGO sector at the same time it destroyed all of the PA media outlets and PR offices, etc. etc.

What is new or different that you are offering? Oh yeah, "we condemn the violence". How many times did Araft condemn the violence and what good did that do the Palestinians?


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 06:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
“He has stayed, like the rest of us” says Abu Sami. “Now we are organizing weekly demonstrations, just so they know we are not going to give up our village and the life we have here.”
Saed Al Jahal silently nodded his agreement.

“We Will Die Here”


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 06:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Palestine Monitor factsheet: Non-Violent Resistance

quote:
“Non-Violence is a powerful weapon that can and will weaken the iron fist of the Occupation”

Sami Awad, Director of the Holy Land Trust

What is Non-Violent Resistance?
Non-Violent Resistance is an alternative to both armed struggle and passive acceptance.

It is both a political strategy and a philosophy of principles that rejects any use of violence in the effort to evoke social or political change.

Non-Violent Resistance aims to change power relations through acts of omission and commission. Acts of omission occur when people refuse to do something, such as paying taxes or buying certain products (economic boycott). Acts of commission consist of actions such as demonstrations or non-violent obstruction.

Non-Violent Resistance is deeply rooted in Palestinian culture and history. It is a large and active part of the ongoing Palestinian struggle against the occupation.

Methods of Non-Violent Resistance
There are 198 methods of non-violent resistance...


And you prattle on and on like some kind of school teatcher scolding Palestinians like they are disobedient children, who would be better served if they had proper manners. Perhaps they have thought of some of these things themselves, read books, studied history, etc?

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 06:46 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Again, I know that there is a lot of nonviolent resistance, and I praise it.

I'm not scolding. I don't see myself as anyone's moral superior.

What I'm saying is that all of us have to find better ways to get the story out.

Your unyielding hostility to everything I say here serves no purpose.

You need to stop being so rigid and intransigent about this.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 06:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
About what? Condemning something that is completely inevitable?

I should make it clear, here to that I am opposed to avalanches too.


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Ken Burch
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posted 01 October 2007 07:13 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Will you give it a rest? I'm not hurting the Palestinians by what I'm saying here. I'm trying to help, in a small way.

And of course some violence is inevitable.
I know that.

My effort is towards helping the situation get better. You just keep lashing out at me for no particularly good reason. I've even acknowledged some of the better points you've made.

But all you have to say to me is "shut up". And saying that never serves any real Left purpose.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 07:29 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
My apologies if I have missed the same remark from another babbler ... but it is surely worth mentioning that the methods of non-violent resistance are working. I mean, of course, the boycott of Israel campaign. As one observer has it, The Tide is Turning.

It goes without saying that the boycott is opposed by the same degree of venom, from the same sources, as other forms of resistance are. And for the same underlying reasons.


That's something we in the Canada are doing, and it is working, but then again, we don't have a regional super power occupying our land, ready to crush us if we step out of line. This arguement is about what the Palestinians are doing to fight the occupation. It isn't about Canadians.

[ 01 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 October 2007 07:42 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ken, if you want to help the Palestinians, concentrate your efforts on Israel. We in the West are far more likely to acieve good things by influencing the Israeli government as opossed to hectoring a powerless people about what they should and shoudn't do.
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N.Beltov
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posted 01 October 2007 09:57 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
CMOT Dibbler: Ken, if you want to help the Palestinians, concentrate your efforts on Israel.

Yup. The boycott Israel campaign would be a good start. It's a peaceful way for outsiders to put pressure where it belongs. And in such an unequal struggle, where one of the consequences of that inequality is incoherent violence, outside pressure may be the only thing to end the violence of the occupation and its (violent) consequences.


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Cueball
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posted 01 October 2007 10:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is a good place for this classic I think:


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