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Author Topic: Legal framework around the sex trade?
MartinArendt
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posted 04 August 2005 12:18 AM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would really like to hear from some feminists about constructive ways one could create a legal framework around the sex trade. This would include:

- regulations around the safety and protection of sex trade workers. The Picton trial highlights the incredible risks sex trade workers face every day and night, and I think a big aspect of this is the lack of legal protection, and the general taboo and stigmatization around sex work.

- regulations around sex toys. Currently, from what I understand, sex toys are considered "novelty products", and thus can be basically be made out of just about any material. There are a few stores which attempt to sell safe products (Womyn's Wares in Vancouver, Come as you Are in Toronto, etc.), but there's no over-arching framework providing regulations around the creation of sex toys.

- An over-arching framework around pornography. I find that the laws we have now tend to be fairly random, and also tend to penalize some groups more than others in terms of what is "indecent". An example of this is the fiasco with books and movies being stopped at the border destined for "Little Sisters" bookstore, in Vancouver. I believe that other GBLTQ bookstores have faced similar problems at the border.

In general, while I know that sex tends not to be dealt with very well at the political level (if it's dealt with at all), I think it's crucial that it be addressed institutionally, if only for the safety issues.

Thoughts?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 04 August 2005 08:51 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
MartinArendt,

Thanks for starting this thread. The issues you've raised are all _very_ different, imo.

1. In terms of sex trade workers' issues, I suggest you check out this link. You can also google Maggie's (although I'm not sure if it's still around), SWOT (Sex Workers of Toronto) and Mira Soleil Ross, who's a transgendered sex worker who just had a show at Buddies earlier this year.

2. As far as I know, Canada does not have sex toy laws the way some states in the US has (eg in Georgia, I believe, it is illegal to sell sex toys, or "marital aids" as they're called). But check out Good For Her and Come as You Are as well. Since they get most of their toys from the US, I'm not sure how much the staff there would know about production issues.

3. When I first started lurking on babble there was a porn discussion going on, and I'm not sure if we want to get into that again. But let's be clear (and you stated this in your post) that the only reason why Little Sister's and Glad Day (and others?) were/are harassed by customs is less because of porn and more because of being queer stores. Little Sister's won their fight, after many years (10 I think) of struggling, and Glad Day was not able to continue the required legal wrangling. I'm not sure what this has to do with "safety" issues.

As far as I know, all the areas you raised have advocates who are doing political work to change laws and try to make them more sex-positive.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 August 2005 09:35 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Re issue 3: The problem is not just our laws about porn, although that is a difficult issue in itself, but also the semi-independence in practice, it appears, of the customs tyrants at the border. Even after court decisions against them, they appear determined to go on harrassing LGBT bookstores, which, as bcg says, has finally forced Glad Day, for one, to give up their legal challenges.

That, I think, is an outrageous situation, but Customs Canada seems an almost untouchable dictatorship.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 04 August 2005 11:49 AM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A book I wrote, "Dzelarhons", was written in Canada, published in Canada,widely available in Canada... and was stopped at the border by Canadian customs jerks. "Little Sisters" had ordered it from a U.S. distributor instead of from one in Canada and the people we pay to go through other people's luggage and paw through their underwear seized the book because it contains the legend of the woman who fell in love with a bear, and had children with him... they said it was "bestiality"...it is a Haida creation myth...

I have no idea why "Little Sisters" ordered it from a US distributor but the publicity probably helped book sales...


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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posted 04 August 2005 07:44 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the info, BCG!

quote:

1. In terms of sex trade workers' issues, I suggest you check out this link. You can also google Maggie's (although I'm not sure if it's still around), SWOT (Sex Workers of Toronto) and Mira Soleil Ross, who's a transgendered sex worker who just had a show at Buddies earlier this year.

I saw Ross' show at Buddies! It was a bit over the top, but generally I got a kick out of it.

I agree, the third point was less about safety...mostly, it's just frustrating that there are all kinds of puritan sex laws out there, but hardly any sort of legal protection for...well..everybody else.

And I am clear on the border issues; it's homophobia, no more no less. My point was just that there's a huge double standard in terms of how the law is interpreted when it comes to what is "indecent"...queer stuff is considered indecent, str8 stuff is just fine.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lukewarm
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posted 04 August 2005 08:45 PM      Profile for Lukewarm        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What is a feminists view point on women selling their bodies for money
From: hinterland's dark cubby hole | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 04 August 2005 10:46 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is a point that has always intrigued me in many ways.

My first question is why does this “market” exist? Is it because men require having regular sex and for some this is the only way? Am I too naive to believe that sex occurs naturally between people and there is not need to buy it?

Second I have to assume that women in the sex trade business do not have other viable financial options or are in some particular situation (abuse, lack of legal documents etc) which preclude them from making a living in a different way.

In my opinion if we were to have a legal framework it should be not only to protect women in the sex trade but also to help them have options to get out of that type of work if they wish too.

[Oops: this is LOCA posting from Albireo's computer.... ]

[ 05 August 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


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Farmageddon
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posted 05 August 2005 02:24 PM      Profile for Farmageddon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Supply and demand.

Although when you say sex trade, you should also keep in mind the male and the gay sex trade as well. It's not just a womens issue.

The models are already developed, tried and tested in several U.S. states and other countrys abroad. I think making it legal would make it safer, just by eliminating the pimps and the pushers that feed off the industry. Then an individuals choice to leave the trade would be solely a personal one, without danger and retribution.

F


From: The seventh ring of a watery hell... | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 05 August 2005 02:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Am I too naive to believe that sex occurs naturally between people and there is not need to buy it?

It certainly occurs naturally among couples, and among attractive people.

But try this: next time you're on the bus, take a look around you at the other guys on the bus, or the guys you pass on the street, and ask yourself how likely it is that that guy there is a big hit with the gals. Chances are that a relatively high proportion of the men you see probably aren't going to be getting much pro bono action.

One of my odd fascinations, while grocery shopping, is "the person in front of me". When their stuff is on the belt waiting to be rung it, it can tell you a lot. When I see a man, typically middle aged, buying pop, chips, cat or dog food, and a single tray of meat (usually a cheap pork chop or tough steak) I know I'm looking at a bachelor, probably recently divorced.

Hard to imagine him saying to some gal "Hey, wanna come up to my rooming house and split a fried pork chop and see what comes naturally?"


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 August 2005 02:46 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh come now, Magoo, surely you don't think only conventionally attractive and/or young people have or still have sexual relations?

I think prostitution is a power relationship: many clients are married, and not necessarily in a dead, sexless marriage or other relationship. I think prostitution has a lot to do with control through money, and seeing other human beings as consumer goods.

I certainly agree that everything should be done to protect people in the sex trade and ensure they have equal rights in terms of police and legal protection. But I see prostitution itself as the antithesis of equality.

By the way, there is no one feminist perspective on prostitution. I share that of most feminists in France and many here, that prostitution is a form of violence against women. Many others see sex work as a job like any other.

Feminists of both opinions are, of course, against targeting prostitutes and in favour of doing everything possible to reduce violence and coercion.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 05 August 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Oh come now, Magoo, surely you don't think only conventionally attractive and/or young people have or still have sexual relations?

I never said young, exactly, although I think youth is a definite advantage if you're looking to be more sexually active. And I wouldn't limit it to "conventionally" attractive either. You just need to be attractive to someone who's attractive to you, period.

But I see lots of people every day who, if they were single, probably wouldn't be all that likely to attract a member of the chosen sex.

Surely we all realize that a short obese guy in a stained t-shirt, or a 50 year old single woman with a moustache probably don't have plans for this Saturday?

What you say is, I think, quite true of one subgroup of Johns: no real necessity, just like a little 'strange'. Hugh Grant springs to mind.

But I do think that a certain proportion of Johns, as well as strip bar clientele or porn consumers, are men who don't, in any real sense, simply have the option of regular sex with someone.

I believe it's the Netherlands (where else?!) that subsidizes visits from a sex surrogate for the disabled and shut-ins of various sort. They recognize that probably nobody is going to answer a personal ad that begins with "Outgoing and effervescent middle aged woman with Spina Bifida seeks..."


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 05 August 2005 07:01 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For feminist perspectives on sex trade work:

Carol Queen's website

Some info on Shannon Bell


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 August 2005 07:50 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here are a few sites that present the opposite position within the women's movement:

http://sisyphe.org/article.php3?id_article=1832

http://sisyphe.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=48

http://prostitution.ifrance.com/

Manifeste pour l'abolition de la prostitution (en français)

That said, I am NOT going to get into this argument once again. The material is there; you are welcome to study both sides of the issue if you wish.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ron Webb
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posted 05 August 2005 08:21 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
I think prostitution is a power relationship: many clients are married, and not necessarily in a dead, sexless marriage or other relationship. I think prostitution has a lot to do with control through money, and seeing other human beings as consumer goods.
... I see prostitution itself as the antithesis of equality.

Sure, but how is that different from any other kind of employment?

From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Insurrection
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posted 06 August 2005 12:27 AM      Profile for Insurrection     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
BAYSWAN's Prostitutes' Education Network (PENet) links and Page section has some pretty comprehensive info divided by topic/section

here

[ 06 August 2005: Message edited by: Insurrection ]


From: exit in the world | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
flushd
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posted 06 August 2005 08:55 AM      Profile for flushd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some feminists think of prostitution as a job like any other. Is this true?
I didn't think that was possible.

From: winnipeg | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 06 August 2005 09:06 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I believe it's the Netherlands (where else?!) that subsidizes visits from a sex surrogate for the disabled and shut-ins of various sort. They recognize that probably nobody is going to answer a personal ad that begins with "Outgoing and effervescent middle aged woman with Spina Bifida seeks..."

There's a local gay bar that I went to for years, and I always knew that there were a few hustlers among the clientele. But I had never so much as spoken to one until the first time I entered the place walking with a crutch. Two of the well-known pros made a bee-line for me and hit me up for drinks.

Those guys aren't stupid; they knew I was a potential customer.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 06 August 2005 09:43 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tape: That's just sad.

As for you, Martin--

quote:
- regulations around sex toys. Currently, from what I understand, sex toys are considered "novelty products", and thus can be basically be made out of just about any material. There are a few stores which attempt to sell safe products (Womyn's Wares in Vancouver, Come as you Are in Toronto, etc.), but there's no over-arching framework providing regulations around the creation of sex toys.


Just be glad you don't live in Alabama

quote:
A federal judge has been asked to strike down a 1998 laws that bans the sale of sex toys in Alabama.

If U.S. District Judge Lynwood Smith agrees it would be the third time he has declared the ban unconstitutional.

A group of 10 storeowners have been fighting the state since the law was enacted. Michael Fees, the lawyer for the group,  argues that the U.S. Supreme Court decision banning the criminalization of gay sex based on privacy issues also protects his clients' right to buy and sell sex toys.

In 1999, Smith ruled against the law only to have it reversed by the 11th Circuit Court after the state attorney general's office appealed his decision.

In 2002, Smith again ruled against the law, but a three-judge panel of the 11th Circuit overturned him. The judges, however, sent the case back to Smith to review some other issues, including whether states have the right to legislate morality.

In February the US Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal, allowing the law to stand. story

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 06 August 2005 11:00 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heph: oops! I guessed Georgia in my first post, not Alabama. Thanks for the info.

An aside: I hope the poster in another thread that wanted to know about differentials in 2nd and 3rd wave feminism is reading this, as this is one of the hot-button issues.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 August 2005 11:13 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It also tends to be a point of discord between feminists in English-speaking North America and many European countries, certainly France. My viewpoint is far more common in Québec (it prevails in the FFQ - though there is an ongoing debate) than in the RoC.

In France, an "abolitionist" view is prevalent among all generations of feminists. Perhaps because human trafficking is such a big issue over there - and legalisation has done nothing to halt it.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 August 2005 01:43 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This may be slightly off topic, but what is the French feminist movement's attitude towards swinger clubs?

As for prostitutes and the disabled. It looks good in theory, but in my opinion it dosen't really work in practice. People who support this kind of legislation often feel that it improves the health and well-being of a countries Gimpy population, but does it really? I know that if I was told by the Canadian government that the only way I could get sex was by paying for it, my self esteem would be in the toilet. I don't want to be treated like a charity case. That isn't what intigration is all about, if the Dutch government really cared about the sexual needs of Holland's Challenged population they would make money available for the disabled to get out more, so they can hone their social skills and meet potential parteners.( or alternatively, allow them to purchase sex toys at the government's expense) Has anyone been to the Come as You Are sex shop in Toronto?

[ 06 August 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DA_Champion
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posted 06 August 2005 02:02 PM      Profile for DA_Champion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On Legalizing Prostition,
My views on prostitution, and for that matter narcotics, are presently in flux. For a long time, my perspective was that these resources were demanded, and as such would be received, regardless of government legislation. Legislating against these actions would simply feed a black market and cause significant amounts of crime, such as during prohibiton and today, and as such a more viable option would be to legalize and regulate, thus cutting out the need for the black market to involve itself.Of course, I think I've now realized that doesn't necessarily work. Biker gangs aee involved in plenty of "legal" operations, clubs, bars, video lottery terminals. No doubt if prostitution was legalized, they would make money off "protection." If drugs were legalized they would probably make money by owning a lot of coffee shops. Unfortunately I'm not thinking the solution will be a lot more difficult and will require tackling these social problems head on. This is what needs to be done regardless, but unfortunately a lot of Canada's political class is more concerned with being perceived as caring about poverty than about actually caring.

On the need for prostitution,

be realistic, sex may occur naturally for most people, but a lot of individuals may have trouble. I think I agree with Mr. Magoo.

The solution for such people is to learn to get out more, granted. Prostitution, I think, will merely be a temporary aid for some, a placebo. Ultimately it's a lot more preferable to be with a woman who actually cares about you.


From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 06 August 2005 09:13 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DA_Champion:
Ultimately it's a lot more preferable to be with a woman who actually cares about you.

You mean YOU prefer to be with a woman who actually cares about you. Not everyone is interested in a personal relationship, some men are in a situation where they have sexual needs that can't be met in a relationship, etc.

It's not for you to decide what's preferable for other people.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 06 August 2005 09:28 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
regulations around the safety and protection of sex trade workers. The Picton trial highlights the incredible risks sex trade workers face every day and night, and I think a big aspect of this is the lack of legal protection, and the general taboo and stigmatization around sex work.

I don't know that you are ever going to regulate it into a safe profession. The reality is that many of the individuals that are selling themselves for money have substance abuse issues and psychological challenges that make it so they don't value themselves to begin with.

quote:
What is a feminists view point on women selling their bodies for money

I am not going to speak for feminists but it's troubleosme to me that so many of the people entering that profession have serious life difficulties. I don't know that they are choosing this in the context of a true choice - often it's desperation.

quote:
This is a point that has always intrigued me in many ways.
My first question is why does this “market” exist? Is it because men require having regular sex and for some this is the only way? Am I too naive to believe that sex occurs naturally between people and there is not need to buy it?

I hear people tell me that it's very easy to go to a nightclub and leave with an overnight date so it's a mystery to me why someone would pay for it.

quote:
What you say is, I think, quite true of one subgroup of Johns: no real necessity, just like a little 'strange'. Hugh Grant springs to mind.


No doubt he leaves Elizabeth Hurley's bed for a sex trade worker? I'll never figure that out.

quote:

I believe it's the Netherlands (where else?!) that subsidizes visits from a sex surrogate for the disabled and shut-ins of various sort

Are you serious Mr. Magoo?


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 07 August 2005 12:10 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Are you serious Mr. Magoo?


Definately. Holland is very liberal when it comes to sex work.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 07 August 2005 01:10 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't believe they actually have taxpayer's subsidy for that. That's crazy.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 07 August 2005 01:21 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Could someone tell Hailey for me that the less-than-able-bodied, who can't hang out on street corners and in brothels, also have needs? And that a society that views sexual urges and the sex-trade as somewhat basic and legitimate might consider supporting it for people who don't have the mobility to get out and get laid, which, in the grand scheme of things, might in fact mean a tiny percent of social spending?

And finally, could someone tell Hailey to stop pretending to be so shocked?

[ 07 August 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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posted 07 August 2005 01:24 AM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hailey, Hinterland, who is no longer speaking to you, wants you to know this:

quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Could someone tell Hailey for me that not only the able-bodied, who can hang out on street corners and in brothels, also have needs? And that a society that views sex-trade as somewhat basic and legitimate might consider supporting it for people who don't have the mobility to get out and get laid, which, in the grand scheme of things, might in fact mean a tiny percent of social spending?

And finally, could someone tell Hailey to stop pretending to be so shocked?



Me, I wanted to point out that you've weighed into another sex-type topic on which you have nothing to say of any interest. More of the fundie mania. . .


From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 07 August 2005 01:28 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Fern. Also, tell her to read the latest version of that post; I edited it a bit.

She should stay out of discussions like this. As if I need to hear, one more time, that she's shocked by something.

[ 07 August 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 07 August 2005 01:38 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Hailey, Hinterland, who is no longer speaking to you, wants you to know this

Thanks FernHill. I was probably 14 when I last talked thru third parties.

I actually trying not to read Hinterland's posts so that I am not tempted to respond because I realize he doesn't want me to address him, have me ask him questions or so forth. I totally respect that and he's certainly free to ignore me if he finds it disruptive and I am sure he has the ability to scroll past if he doesn't want to read what I have to say.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 07 August 2005 01:43 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Could someone tell Hailey that, for someone who puts a lot of effort at trying to come across as some paragon of virtue and self-righteousness, she is awfully good at being a garden-variety bitch?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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posted 07 August 2005 01:53 AM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok, I'm still up. I'll do it.

"Z3!o¬lriginally posted by Hinterland:
Could someone tell Hailey that, for someone who puts a lot of effort at trying to come across as some paragon of virtue and self-righteousness, she is awfully good at being a garden-variety bitch?[/QUOTE]

But, what I think, Hint, is that s/he/it is a garden-variety fiction.


From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 07 August 2005 01:55 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fern Hill I am not going to participate in this and I'll scroll past you post. If someone has something to say to me they can say it to me or not.

I am not sure how the word "bitch" fits into the feminist forum but that's not something I am going to spend much more time focusing on.

[ 07 August 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 07 August 2005 01:59 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*noticed that someone posted something about not being someone's husband and therefore not entitled to ask his wife to be silent, and that that someone deleted it*
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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posted 07 August 2005 02:00 AM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not edited fast enough.
From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 07 August 2005 02:00 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I felt I spoke sharply and modified what I wrote.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 August 2005 02:00 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow. This kind of gang bullying reminds me of grade five. Thanks for the memories! Keep up the good work - it's very progressive to shit all over someone for no apparent reason.

It's not like the sentiment expressed in Hailey's comment is shocking or even anti-feminist. There are many people - including feminists who do not feel prostitution is a positive thing, and they post on this very board, in this very forum, even in this very thread! - who might react the same way to hearing about government-funded prostitution visits.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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Babbler # 3582

posted 07 August 2005 02:03 AM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Funny how 'gang-bullying' (the phrase from those in authority) happens to 'butter-wouldn't-melt' type teacher's pets, innit it?
From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 August 2005 02:09 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not in authority here. I'm just stating my opinion. You know, you may think you're just having a fun time picking on someone you hate, but the fact is, it doesn't just affect Hailey. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but I actually felt physically sick to my stomach reading this exchange. And so I said something.

There's no real reason for you to do this - she hasn't said anything controversial. It wouldn't have bothered me if this whole thing started because she said something rude or thoughtless or anti-feminist or mean. But she didn't.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 07 August 2005 02:09 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's not like the sentiment expressed in Hailey's comment is shocking or even anti-feminist. There are many people - including feminists who do not feel prostitution is a positive thing, and they post on this very board, in this very forum, even in this very thread! - who might react the same way to hearing about government-funded prostitution visits.

The comment had nothing to do with feminism. She thought the whole concept of providing sex services to the disabled "crazy."

Teacher's pet is right. She's accorded way more understanding than any number of people I've seen pass through here.

[ 07 August 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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Babbler # 3582

posted 07 August 2005 02:11 AM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oy, and ain't that the beauty of it? Defenders rush in and the 'pet' retires.
From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 07 August 2005 02:13 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, crap. She was obviously shocked at the idea of prostitution being paid for by the government. Lots of people would be.

And screw your "teacher's pet" bullshit. First of all, I'm not the "teacher" here. Secondly, just because I think you're treating someone like shit and saying so doesn't make Hailey a "teacher's pet".

You look at the posts in this thread and see where Hailey deserved to be called a "bitch" (oh, very feminist of you, by the way) and told to stop posting. She hasn't done anything wrong here. So yeah, I tend to speak up when I see someone getting picked on like that.

Way more understanding? Also crap. But since we're throwing around accusations of bias, let me tell you that I think if anyone other than Hailey had posted the comment she did, you wouldn't have even batted an eyelash.

[ 07 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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Babbler # 3582

posted 07 August 2005 02:16 AM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle, if you're talking to me, I never called anyone a bitch.
From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 August 2005 02:16 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not. I was responding to Hinterland's post.

Anyhow, screw this, I'm going to bed. Feel free to piss all over Hailey for the rest of the night without interference from me. Sorry for interrupting your fun.

[ 07 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 07 August 2005 02:18 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, I called her a bitch. And I stand by it. I'm not the first to, and certainly won't be the last.

quote:
There's no real reason for you to do this - she hasn't said anything controversial. It wouldn't have bothered me if this whole thing started because she said something rude or thoughtless or anti-feminist or mean. But she didn't.

Yes, she did. She said the thing was "crazy". I realise I'm being abysmally childish, but really, in the grand scheme of things, which is more important? That Hailey not get her feelings hurt, or that the issue of sexuality and the disabled not be labled as "crazy?"


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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Babbler # 3582

posted 07 August 2005 02:20 AM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Silly Hinterland. Hailey should not get her feelings hurt. Never. She (or whatever it is) is toooooo sweeeeet.
From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 07 August 2005 08:04 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting dynamic.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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Babbler # 7024

posted 07 August 2005 09:20 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Speaking as a disabled person (if only someone who's relatively recently joined that group), I gotta say that while the notion of subsidized sex surrogacy makes a certain amount of sense on the surface, it seems to me that in practice there would be a dark side to it also.

The process for getting US Social Secuirty disability benefits is a humiliating exercise requiring one to list every little symptom and submit to examination by doctors in the government's employ. Your own physicians' statements alone are usually not sufficent.

There are any number of repetitive forms, each worded slightly differently in logical switch-backs to try to catch applicants (and/or their doctors) in the tiniest mistaken assertion or incomplete statement (or-- to be fair-- in an outright lie). I understand that all of this is done to make sure only deserving people get the benefits, but I am certain that the process is also designed to see that a certain number of people just give up on it without costing the government any money.

How is any of this related to the issue of subsidized sexual surrogacy? Given the machinations involved in 'proving' one's disability here in the US, I can well imagine what kind of humiliating questions one would have to answer, and what kind of intrusive investigation would accompany a request for some government-paid pseudo-nookie:

When was the last time you had sex with another person? Did you pay that person to have sex with you? If yes, when was the last time you had sex with someone who was not paid?

Can you sustain an erection for 15 minutes or longer? If, no, why not?

Are you able to masturbate? If yes, how often do you engage in masturbation? When was the last time you masturbated? Do your efforts at masturbation sometimes result in orgasm? How often?

etc... etc... etc....

[ 07 August 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 07 August 2005 07:11 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am so very happy to be Canadian.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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Babbler # 4722

posted 08 August 2005 12:01 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting dynamic indeed. We decry bullying on some threads against some people but not others. Geez fern or hint cant you just NOT comment when its hailey or is stalking her on all threads just too much fun? (something Ive been accused of as well)
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BleedingHeart
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Babbler # 3292

posted 08 August 2005 12:14 PM      Profile for BleedingHeart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A nurse friend of mine who works on a reconstructive surgery unit (where people often don't have the use of their hands if you know what I mean) went to a meeting in the US and told me that apparently they have masturbation therapists in some units.

Maybe Ralph Klein could offer this enhanced service as part of his third way.

[ 08 August 2005: Message edited by: BleedingHeart ]


From: Kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 08 August 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And screw your "teacher's pet" bullshit. First of all, I'm not the "teacher" here. Secondly, just because I think you're treating someone like shit and saying so doesn't make Hailey a "teacher's pet".

Isn't it called "poisoning the well" when you anticipate a situation and pre-judge it so that if someone is foolish enough to step into that situation the judgement falls on them and it looks like a done deal?

It's already been pre-established that if you defend Hailey, you're being a "Galahad" and falling for her feminine wiles. No matter what you're defending, be it an unwarranted attack, or just a principle entirely separate from her.

It's a remarkably effective way to ensure Hailey gets little, if any, support. Regardless. Apparently Hailey cannot ever be right, as defending that would still be criticized as "Galahadism".

In fact I must assume that this post will similarly be labelled "Galahadism". And the irony is, I even saw it coming.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 08 August 2005 12:25 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
apparently they have masturbation therapists in some units.

Maybe Ralph Klein could offer this enhanced service as part of his third way.


Maybe it could be his post-politics career.

He's uniquely qualified, having jerked around Albertans for years. And Klein being the official government jerk-off artist would mollify those who have moral objections to anyone deriving any actual pleasure from it.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 08 August 2005 02:19 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
I am so very happy to be Canadian.

I'm happy you are Canadian too. As a previous health-care worker in the assisted housing field (in Toronto, Canada), I worked on behalf of a few wonderful, intelligent young men who were wheelchair dependent and also dependent on health-care workers for most daily functions, i.e. bathing, using the toilet, eating etc. For them, the option of going to a club unless they had a fully-abled assistant would not be an option. And yes, they occasionally requested the services of sex-trade workers, male and female.

[ 08 August 2005: Message edited by: chubbybear ]


From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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Babbler # 9723

posted 09 August 2005 12:04 AM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the link, Heph!

As for the rest of the debate, I think it's gotten out of hand. I don't really know if I wanted the topic to swing over to legalizing prostitution, or the ethics of sex trade work, or the mentality of someone who enters the sex trade (although, as a sidenote, if anybody can link to a babble thread which contains a debate on that subject, I'd like to read it)...I think I just wanted to see what sort of legal services or protection exists around sex work, sex toys, and the sex trade in general.

Whether or not you think prostitution should be legalized, I'm assuming that most babblers here would like to see sex trade workers protected as much as possible. I don't think that's a ridiculous assertion to make.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
SubHuman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7740

posted 09 August 2005 01:47 AM      Profile for SubHuman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You can read what the sex trade workers say for themselves on these websites.

http://changethecode.net/
http://spoc.ca/
http://www.eroticguild.com/
http://www.lacoalitionmontreal.com/
http://www.sextradeworkersofcanada.com/
http://www.chezstella.org/
http://maggiestoronto.org/

Decriminalized set-ups in New Zealand and the Australian state of New South Wales have been specifically mentioned by some of them who spoke to the Subcommittee on Solicitation Laws.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/infocomdoc/38/1/SSLR/Meetings/Evidence/SSLREV33-E.HTM

http://montreal.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=qc-stella20050517

quote:
Boucher says there are many misconceptions about sex trade workers.
"All sex workers are drug addicts, and abused in their childhood, or nymphos, or victims or have pimps, and it's not true."

Remember that it's not illegal to be a prostitute in Canada, the vast majority of the sex trade in Canada has nothing to do with street prostitution, and existing laws are no longer being sincerely enforced. We've had de facto legalized prostitution in Canada for many years. See the Ottawa Citizen article "How cities 'license' off-street hookers".

As they've found out in more than one Australian state, leaving the mostly unenforced prostitution laws in place simply enables systemic police corruption.

[ 09 August 2005: Message edited by: SubHuman ]


From: nexus of the crisis | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
shaolin
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Babbler # 4270

posted 09 August 2005 08:07 PM      Profile for shaolin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
the vast majority of the sex trade in Canada has nothing to do with street prostitution

Is this true? I mean, I know all prostitution isn't a streetwalker and a john, but I had no idea other forms of prostitution constitute a 'vast majority.'


From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
SubHuman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7740

posted 09 August 2005 09:28 PM      Profile for SubHuman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's a difficult thing to quantify exactly.

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_sex-trade20050329

quote:
And Davies says she's also concerned about the escort business – noting it accounts for up to 95 per cent of prostitution in Canada.

"The hidden world of hookers"

quote:
...most prostitution occurs off the streets -- in massage parlours, escort agencies, strip clubs, hotels and private homes...

"Street prostitution is no more than 20 per cent of the sex trade in Canada right now," according to John Lowman. In the off-street sector, "you've got this huge trade in massage parlours, body-rub parlours. You've got a vast business in escort services. You have all sorts of women working out of their home using advertising."


[ 09 August 2005: Message edited by: SubHuman ]


From: nexus of the crisis | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
charlieM
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6514

posted 10 August 2005 12:58 AM      Profile for charlieM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin:

Is this true? I mean, I know all prostitution isn't a streetwalker and a john, but I had no idea other forms of prostitution constitute a 'vast majority.'


Yeah, call girls (i dont know if one would call them that) are far more wide-spread than one would thing. In fact, my friend's grandpa runs and escort service that sets couples up for dates. and that is "sets couples up for dates"


From: hamilton | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged

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