quote:

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"We are now again, virtually irrelevant in Western Canada and have lost the beachhead we had in British Columbia. The problems in Quebec remain widespread and deep. The NDP and Greens are encroaching on the Liberal party's territory from the left."

---

And just what leader do they think would solve these problems for them?

Certainly not IGGY, Rae or Kennedy, another central Ontarian won't do it, one could always hope for Ujjahl, I suppose.

quote:

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Everyone is always decrying the fact that there are no "honest politicians" - that's because we can't handle them. Out of all the leaders we saw - Dion was the most awkward at the politicking - he spoke with great earnestness and desire to lead with a conscience, and for that he isn't fit to lead. Too bad for us. We chose someone who we know lies and avoids transparency at all cost - and many of his ministers won on the account that they actually did NOT campaign: how many "no comment from the Conservative MP" did I read on a range of issues? I just wish that people would have demonstrated a bit more tact when the Liberals lost and not smack the guy in the face for being an intellect and not a politician.

---

quote:

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Monsieur Dion is a noble man, with principles and deep commitment to his country. He has done his best for Canadians, but has been ill-served by the vultures now circling overhead.

Party-switching Rae drove Ontario into enormous deficits, and opportunistic Ignatief appeared on the political scene only when he became bored, a last chapter in his mainly American life. Because of the party's disarray and in-fighting (thanks for that admirable model of behaviour Monsieur Martin) Liberals are fast becoming as irrelevant as the NDP. To regain any real support, they need to show themselves as principled, respected and respectful members of Canada's Parliament, and given the current state of national and world affairs, need to facilitate the governing of our great country, not be hysterical nay-sayers who ultimately do an about-face and blindly support the ruling party merely out of political expediency.

ALL parties need to work together to do the best they can, as a whole, for all Canadians; after all, together, they constitute our parliament. This includes the puffed-up blowhard, empty-handed Layton. (If only Judy W-L were NDP leader, and Elizabeth May had been elected.)

ALL parties, together, need to make Canadians' lives better, healthier and richer in culture, opportunities and optimism!

---

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Interested Observer ]

quote:

---

Monsieur Dion is a noble man, with principles and deep commitment to his country

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Nonsense, he choose not to bring the government down and ill served Canadians, on several Bills, because of his personal interests needing to be met. It was more important to him to pay off his leadership race debt than be official opposition. Moreover, he let Bill C484 pass 2nd reading because of his lack of interest in being opposition leader.

---

That's not my quote. However, I could have said it. I will also believe it regardless of whatever you can bring up.

For the record: Jack Layton believed it also, until he became his political opponent.

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Interested Observer ]

You can believe in Dions goodness all you want, but I guess your equality rights were not being attacked, so you did not feel his betrayal of Canadian women's rights by apathy and disinterest, as I did.

And he most certainly did not want to vbing the government down, he has not yet paid off his leadership race debt.

quote:

---

Nonsense, he choose not to bring the government down and ill served Canadians, on several Bills, because of his personal interests needing to be met. It was more important to him to pay off his leadership race debt than be official opposition. Moreover, he let Bill C484 pass 2nd reading because of his lack of interest in being opposition leader.

---

Did the bill become law?

You can claim that that was the reason if you wish, but the liberals were not ready for an election, no matter how much I would have preferred if they bring the government down.

What exactly would happen otherwise. The Liberals aren't ready and the Conservatives get a majority and can pass anything they want or the Conservatives get another minority and bring the bill back.

What happens then, they bring down the government again?

I understand the frustration over the Conservatives getting all sorts of bad legislation passed, but they could hardly have brought the government down every week.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
Many here think you can hold an election every week...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Interested Observer:
I was just making it clear. You have made mistakes in the past on this.

---

quote:

---

Did the bill become law?

---

quote:

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You can claim that that was the reason if you wish, but the liberals were not ready for an election,

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quote:

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Why do you despise almost all of your political opponents? Can you not set aside your political differences once and a while, and acknowledge that there is some goodness in people who are not a part of the NDP caucus?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

---

I wasn't passing judgement in the slightest. You chose to assume that.

As long as it did not become law, and I don't know the details of your allegations, I don't see that much of a problem.

In a leadership position you have to make choices, sometimes neither choice is a good one to make.

It only died in second reading because Harper dissolved government, and it may well be brought forward or others like it. If it had not passed second reading it would have died right there and then.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
funny you don't see "that much of problem" about voting on human rights, but I am not surprised in the least, seeing as how it was not men's rights that were being voted on. Even more telling that you never heard of it. It caused a huge backlash across Canada.

It only died in second reading because Harper dissolved government, and it may well be brought forward or others like it. If it had not passed second reading it would have died right there and then.

BTW, I do not need to prove anything to you, and find it amazing that you would suggest such a thing.

---

I don't watch tv as I find it's a waste of my money. I'm not always paying attention to what's going on in Canadian politics as I find it rather depressing. Lately, US politics has caught my interest. Sometimes I miss out on important things in Canada.

What I was trying to say was that I will not pass judgement immediately before hearing why this happened from their side as well. I know that sometimes mistakes are made in the house, and there aren't always enough people around to oppose a bill because they are distracted with something else. So until I see all the details I will not pass judgement.

I resent your assumptions about me. I clearly did not want such a bill to pass. You automatically assume I do not care about your rights. You're completely wrong about that.

Just because you have a negative opinion of men, does not give you the right to assume I fit with your worst assumptions about them.

Wait, I'm confused. Did it actually get passed on second reading and move on to third reading? Or was it defeated because of the dissolution before that. You weren't entirely clear in that last reply.
As I understand things in the House, every bill passes first reading and moves onto second reading as it is just a formality.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Interested Observer:
What I was trying to say was that I will not pass judgement immediately before hearing why this happened from their side as well. I know that sometimes mistakes are made in the house, and there aren't always enough people around to oppose a bill because they are distracted with something else. So until I see all the details I will not pass judgement.

---

quote:

---

I resent your assumptions about me.

---

quote:

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Just because you have a negative opinion of men, does not give you the right to assume I fit with your worst assumptions about them.

---

quote:

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Wait, I'm confused. Did it actually get passed on second reading and move on to third reading?

---

quote:

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Or was it defeated because of the dissolution before that. You weren't entirely clear in that last reply.

---

Bills do not get defeated because the government is porogued, they get brought forward at next sitting. Just as all the Bills that died on the order paper in June's dissolution, will be brought forward as the first order of business when the 40th session sits.

quote:

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Well you seemed to care enough about my opinion that you replied to it,

---

quote:

---

so I assumed that you would want to defend yourself somehow

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
funny you don't see "that much of problem" about voting on human rights, but I am not surprised in the least, seeing as how it was not men's rights that were being voted on.

---

This sounds like you have a negative opinion of men to me. Or at least, because I tend to disagree with you on things, assumed the worst, for your own benefit. I still resent that assumption either way.

I'm not just going to take your word for it. I will look at the details of what happened, and if it is such an outrage as you say then Dion would have had to respond. I will read up on it.

When an election is called all bills not passed die automatically, and have to be resubmitted, no? The opposition will simply vote against it because the Conservatives do not hold a majority. Thank goodness for that!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Interested Observer:
This sounds like you have a negative opinion of men to me. Or at least, because I tend to disagree with you on things, assumed the worst, for your own benefit. I still resent that assumption either way.

---

Yes men always do things for the benefit of women as we always need to be rescued from ourselves.

quote:

---

I'm not just going to take your word for it. I will look at the details of what happened, and if it is such an outrage as you say then Dion would have had to respond. I will read up on it.

---

quote:

---

When an election is called all bills not passed die automatically, and have to be resubmitted, no?

---

quote:

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The opposition will simply vote against it because the Conservatives do not hold a majority. Thank goodness for that!

---

quote:

---

As for your constant negative attitude, I will continue to hold you in low regard until I see you prove otherwise. (Not that you care, obviously )

---

ETA C484 links for IO

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001390&p=

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001387&p=

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001355&p=

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001356&p=

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001342&p=

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

LMAO, you're right I don't.

---

I am fully aware of how, since, Catholicism came into being the warped minds of the power-hungry roman catholic clergy forced a view of women as being temptresses that will bring you towards sin, and therefore the devil. I am aware that witch hunts were simply a way to kill off women who did not fit their view of how they should behave or act. This is despicable, but does represent the view of all men.

As I was saying, I am not one of those men.

Okay, so I have read the hansard associated with the bill.

It seems like it was a complete free vote. I noticed that some liberals and NDP voted in favour of it moving to committee. The vote tally was 147 yays to 132 nays. There were 26 members of the house besides Dion who were not present discounting the speaker, of course.

I fail to see how you can lay the blame solely on Dion, besides him being obviously absent, there was not enough members to prevent it even if he was there. Are you saying that all those absent were liberal? Even if they all showed up how can you be certain they would have all voted nay? Plus, some liberal or ndp members would have wanted to have more discussion even if they were eventually going to vote no anyway. I fail to see how you can blame Dion specifically for this.

I can see how you might have a personal issue with him over it but it was not a 'whipped' vote even for the ndp so all I see is you using your partisan hatred for the man, once more.

See you did not read any threads associated with it, that I linked to, or you would have known, how we felt about the 1 NDP that voted in favour and what the fall out was. And just why those Liberals were not present and even where they were at.

And frankly your minimizing of it, and the inequality that women face, still today by carrying on with a slight against catholics in the past, plus your rescuing comment and screams of partianship, really indicate to me where you are at in respect to women's equality rights.

So don't assume I read the exchange- I have too much grief in my life right now to expose myself to that. Life is too short.

Anyway:

quote:

---

What exactly would happen otherwise. The Liberals aren't ready and the Conservatives get a majority and can pass anything they want or the Conservatives get another minority and bring the bill back.

What happens then, they bring down the government again?

I understand the frustration over the Conservatives getting all sorts of bad legislation passed, but they could hardly have brought the government down every week.

---

What an absolute truck load of red herrings. What silly bullshit: people around here think you can hold an election every week.

Knock, knock: one thing elections always do is reconfigure the dynamics. Even if the balance of power- formal and informal(s) does not change, it takes time to settle.

There is never going to be "elections every week". Even if you play chicken, the worst that can happen is one 6 month gap between elections... and one way or another, that won't be repeated.

It is ridiculous- and often a convenient red herring- to treat everything that could happen as if it was a realistic possibility

quote:

---

That said, in hindsight, clearly the Liberals should have brought the government down after Harper made his 'all bills are matter of confidence' tactic and challenged him on his dictatorial manner.

---

Exactly. You said it yourself. You call their bluff once. You deal with what comes after the election.

And this is not a now academic point.

Because the pathetic Liberal Party of Canada is going to same thing over again. So we can expect to hear the same whining again.

I'll admitt that the LPC is now in a very tight pickle. Voting no confidence would be very tough.

But, a.] you didn't get into this position overnight and its the culmination of a lot of bullshit posturing; and b.] caving or an election are not the only two options and if you don't get on track with an alternative, don't blame us for despising you; and c.] PUUULEAZE, spare us any more of the bullshit about your caving being a sacrifice sparing the country from a Harper majority.

quote:

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Originally posted by Adam T:

We just had an election and the Conservatives got reelected. How many times can you bring down the government?

---

Well if they don't want to act as an Official opposition than they need to move out than just be place holders.

Anyway, this is about liberals knifing their leader and has nothing to do with the New Democrats. Just because libs are doing blood-letting doesn't mean that NDP should give them a break - I didn't notice that liberal star gave the NDP a media break?
And I don't blame Dion for all his woes as much as I do their own party. And if Dion was a different "cat" he was still a cat. Who knows what really would have happen if he got a minority govt? Remember he was a cat!

quote:

---

Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
Well if they don't want to act as an Official opposition than they need to move out than just be place holders.

---

quote:

---

Liberal Leader Stephane Dion is still weighing his options following Tuesday's election defeat and will not step down today, CTV News has learned.

CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife, reporting from Ottawa Thursday, said reports that Dion will step down today are false.

"I spoke this morning with two people who are very close to Mr. Dion and they say he will not be resigning today or announcing his plan to resign today," Fife told CTV's Canada AM.

"He is still weighing his options, there will be no decision until early next week or perhaps a little later."

---

quote:

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Originally posted by RonaldReagan:
If Brian Tobin or Frank McKenna do not run, I am leaning towards supporting a female candidate. Its about god damn time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:
After the above linked Star article there is this reader's comment:
"Someone needs to talk Justin Trudeau into it. He's fresh, has the right genes and is not connected to any of the Liberal messes of recent years. He'd lead the party back to responsible government."

The incompatibility with the ideas of responsibility and having a leader because he has the right "genes" is incredibly stark . While this is just one reader's opinion, I have been surprised to see like comments from many others. Truly disturbing. It seems that there are those of us really attached to the ideals of a monarchy.

---

JT may have some of the 'right stuff' in a few years but geez people at least see if he's able to function in parliament as an MP first with at least a minimum level of skill.

This reminds me of the Kaiser Wilhelm's abdication at the end of WWI - he was the last one to find you he'd abdicated (the Chancellor announced the act before Kaiser Bill had agreed).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:
After the above linked Star article there is this reader's comment:
"Someone needs to talk Justin Trudeau into it.

---

quote:

---

It seems that there are those of us really attached to the ideals of a monarchy

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quote:

---

At the start of the campaign I suggested that Hedy Fry would win in Vancouver Center only to be told by someone not living in the riding that the NDP's star candidate would send Hedy packing - well the voters have spoken and Hedy has been re-elected and the NDP did so well that they finished 3rd behind Lorne Mayencourt of all people after finishing 2nd in that riding in most recent elections.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Politics101:

David Lewis, Stephen Lewis, Avi Lewis

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quote:

---

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Isn't Justin Trudeau contractually obligated to wait until Ben Mulroney and Avi Lewis become leaders of their respective parties?

---

ROFL!

Let's see here: entertainfluff "news" guy who hosts Canadian Idol. Vs. A Drama teacher -who did a great eulogy on his fathers death- then hosted the Giller prize..Vs. A 'Hep' former CBC journalist now working (and demonized by the Cons) for English al-jezeera.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

And frankly your minimizing of it, and the inequality that women face, still today by carrying on with a slight against catholics in the past, plus your rescuing comment and screams of partianship, really indicate to me where you are at in respect to women's equality rights.

---

Bullshit! Your guilt-trip games are pathetic! Like I said I am NOT in favor of it passing.

I know equality is still unresolved!

I just beg to differ on the argument that Dion is directly to blame for this!

On a divisive issue such as Bill C-484, it's possible that members of the house would have wanted it to at least appear as if they were seriously considering it before it's ultimate rejection. That way the social-right would not get even angrier and pursue it even further.

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenS:
First, I cant bare to read those posts by IO after I saw the first few words that brought up "because I'm a man"...

So don't assume I read the exchange- I have too much grief in my life right now to expose myself to that. Life is too short.

---

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

quote:

---

Politics101, for what it's worth, I have a friend who lives in VanCentre and have heard from him that quite a few of his friends wanted to vote for Byers but were afraid that Mayencourt might win if they did so, and thus held their noses and voted for Fry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

As to candidates, the Star has Ruby Dhalia on their list and it looks like McKenna is interested. Even more interesting he's being promoted by David Peterson who backed Ignatieff last time.

---

Dhalla would be an intriguing choice. On the surface of things she'd be a good candidate. She's strong in the house, she could potentially shore up the flagging Liberal vote within the formerly strong Liberal voting immigrant community and she'd probably really highlight the nasty side of Harper in comparison. I could just imagine the Conservative response to a 35-year old Indo-Canadian woman, it would likely backfire on them if Harper isn't able to keep them inline (which would be his toughest challenge yet).

Otoh, is Canada ready for a such a young leader? And can she speak French, and even if she can't, can she learn it quickly and adequately?

quote:

---

Originally posted by jrootham: I'm not really enamoured of the historical Lewis family dominance of the NDP but Avi is having nothing to do with the party and Stephen has established himself very substantially so your examples are off the mark.

---

While I think Lewis would be an intriguing future NDP leader, I think it's better that he remains a film maker. The left needs creative people in the cultural/news sphere too and maybe even more so.

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]

quote:

---

Her main hurdle is her lack of French, despite taking lessons for the past year and a half.

"It's fabulous having a woman from a visible minority background in the race. It shows all parts of the part are plugged into the process," said one senior Liberal. "But every candidate should be asked about their French.... Everyone is preoccupied with two issues: how do we woo back Quebec and how do we consolidate our gains in B.C.?"

rubydhalla.ca, posting the text from a JOHN IVISON story, Thu 09 Feb 2006

---

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: writer ]

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by janfromthebruce:

Well if they don't want to act as an Official opposition than they need to move out than just be place holders.

Anyway, this is about liberals knifing their leader and has nothing to do with the New Democrats. Just because libs are doing blood-letting doesn't mean that NDP should give them a break - I didn't notice that liberal star gave the NDP a media break?
And I don't blame Dion for all his woes as much as I do their own party. And if Dion was a different "cat" he was still a cat. Who knows what really would have happen if he got a minority govt? Remember he was a cat!

---

Cats!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boom Boom:
CTV: Mike Duffy reports Joe Volpe is the first senior Liberal to publicly call on Dion to resign as party leader.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boom Boom:

Sheila Copps!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Politics101:
At the start of the campaign I suggested that Hedy Fry would win in Vancouver Center only to be told by someone not living in the riding that the NDP's star candidate would send Hedy packing - well the voters have spoken and Hedy has been re-elected and the NDP did so well that they finished 3rd behind Lorne Mayencourt of all people after finishing 2nd in that riding in most recent elections.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Isn't Justin Trudeau contractually obligated to wait until Ben Mulroney and Avi Lewis become leaders of their respective parties?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Why would McKenna leave a lucrative job in the banking business to become Opposition leader - at much lower pay - for a badly divided (and broke, financially) party that likely will remain in Opposition for at least the next three years?

---

It's really up to the opposition how long it is before the next election.

quote:

---

Stéphane Dion is to expected to announce Monday that he will step aside as Liberal Leader.

Mr. Dion has not spoken in public since Tuesday night after the election results in which his party lost 19 seats and polled its lowest level of popular support since Confederation.

Liberal party officials said today Mr. Dion will speak Monday about his plans.

It is expected, according to sources, that he will say he is stepping aside and that there will be a leadership convention in May. It is not clear, however, whether he will remain as the interim leader.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
Well, last time they went into essentially an 11-month lame duck period, giving Harper a free hand to govern as if he had a majority, because he knew the Liberals would never force an election until after they had elected a new leader.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
Well, last time they went into essentially an 11-month lame duck period, giving Harper a free hand to govern as if he had a majority, because he knew the Liberals would never force an election until after they had elected a new leader.

---

And how pathetic was that. I hope Canadians won't be expected to put up with another 11-month hold, just so that the Liberals can get their act together. We need an opposition now! When are the Liberals going to start working for their pay cheques?

[ 17 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
Dion, who has been in seclusion since taking his party to its second-worst election defeat in history, has scheduled a news conference for 2 p.m. ET Monday.

---

[ 17 October 2008: Message edited by: Paul Gross ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Hey, maybe if Dion is resigning and leaving politics completely, EMay can run there in a by-election?

---

For those potentially missing the full weight of the joke:

quote:

---

Fresh off a decisive election defeat, an undaunted Elizabeth May promised Wednesday to run again for the Greens in the first available byelection and turned aside suggestions she might defect to the Liberals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul Gross:
I predict Dion will use this news conference to ask to start the entire election campaign over again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Island Red:
As Stephane Dion prepares to leave Stornaway for the last time, his unique place in Canadian politics should be noted: Dion is the first elected Liberal leader not to have held the position of prime minister since Edward Blake. For those too young to remember Blake, he ruled the Liberals from 1880 to 1887, before giving up the leadership.

So Dion is in rare company indeed. Salut, Stephane, and let's hope you've started a trend for future Liberal leaders to follow.

---

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

---

Dion starts out by reflecting on what brought him into public life in the first place before dropping the first bombshell: He plans to resign as leader, but he’s not stepping down in the interim - for transition purposes, and to “prepare the party” for the coming leadership convention.
“I will stay as leader until a new leader is chosen,” he repeats, in English. Sorry, John, sorry Ralph - looks like he’s sticking around for the next few months.

---

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: janfromthebruce ]

quote:

---

2:21:31 PM
Roger Smith reels off a list of other possible reasons for his loss - language, failure to run negative ads, bad strategic decisions, etc — but Dion doesn’t accept his verdict that it was his fault, at least in part. According to Dion, he’s been told that his performance was “fine” - it’s that Canadians didn’t get to know the real Stephane Dion. As for the Green Shift, he says that the party simply “wasn’t equipped” to sell it in the face of the propaganda against it. “If we had been able to explain what kind of Prime Minister I would have been, we would have won.”

---

It's not outside the realm of possibility. Highly unlikely, yes. But given the state of the global economy, you really never know.

[ 20 October 2008: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DrConway:
Five bucks says the Liberals will all roll over for Harper once again like trained poodles.

Such moral fiber, indeed. How on earth did these idiots manage 70 seats?

---

I disagree - Dion wants another crack at an election. He can push for his party to vote against the next Conservative budget and anything else that they propose. His leadership opponents will look bad if they don't vote with him. Strategically he then forces the NDP or Bloc to vote with the Tories (or face an election they clearly don't want).

quote:

---

Originally posted by madmax:
Except that enough people would vote CPC just to end the misery of endless elections.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mojoroad1:
I would be riding my unicorn to the poll to vote the NDP in as official opposition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mojoroad1:
For Dion to play "chicken" with the NDP would be a MAJOR mistake. The NDP will not back down on confidence votes - it was one of the main narratives of the last election - "the real effective opposition" etc. The Bloc won on "vote for us to stop Harper", so all eyes will be on them as well. The Liberals can't afford another election, can't get more loans to do so and as mentioned previously, Dion has zero support within his own party. Finally, he's already signaled that he'll roll over and play dead (er...cooperate) with the Conservatives.

---

Dion's chance of being Prime Minister in a chicken election: 15%
Dion's chance of gaining a few seats in a chicken election, rehabilitating his image and staying on as Liberal leader: 35% (the party is broke but can always borrow money)
Dion's chance of being Prime Minister without a chicken election: 0%

I don't think the Liberals will defy their leader on a confidence vote - especially if doing so makes them look like toadies of the Conservative party. Moreover, by making such a move, all of the Liberals running for leadership will have taken on additional debts for a convention that didn't happen.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mojoroad1:
For Dion to play "chicken" with the NDP would be a MAJOR mistake.

---

quote:

---

The Liberals can't afford another election, can't get more loans to do so and as mentioned previously, Dion has zero support within his own party.

---

quote:

---

Finally, he's already signaled that he'll roll over and play dead (er...cooperate) with the Conservatives.

---

quote:

---

It would be interesting to see what would happen in such a scenario... but then again I would be riding my unicorn to the poll to vote the NDP in as official opposition.

---

If Harper loses a confidence vote before the New Year, there is no election, Dion gets asked to form a government and rolls over for just about anything the NDP and the Bloc ask for.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jrootham:
Another thing, what does the fixed election date law say about when the next election is supposed to be? Oct 14, 2012?

---

Maybe. Here's the law:

quote:

---

56.1 (1) Nothing in this section affects the powers of the Governor General, including the power to dissolve Parliament at the Governor General’s discretion.

(2) Subject to subsection (1), each general election must be held on the third Monday of October in the fourth calendar year following polling day for the last general election, with the first general election after this section comes into force being held on Monday, October 19, 2009.

---

So, if the current election was lawful (by subsection (1) somehow trumping subsection (2)), then it will be the third Monday of October, 2012.

If, however, subsection (1) gives the G-G the power to dissolve Parliament but not to schedule a premature election, then the next election has to be (wait for it...) October 19, 2009!

My simple-minded reading of the law leans toward the latter interpretation.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jrootham:
There is some point missing going on here.

If Harper loses a confidence vote before the New Year, there is no election, Dion gets asked to form a government and rolls over for just about anything the NDP and the Bloc ask for.

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Would the NDP and Bloc go for it? IMV they would have too.

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[/qb]If Harper loses between January and May, it's up to the GG, probably with a ruling from Federal court on whether the last election was legal or not in her pocket to help her decide.[/QB]

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Originally posted by jrootham:
There is some point missing going on here.

If Harper loses a confidence vote before the New Year, there is no election, Dion gets asked to form a government and rolls over for just about anything the NDP and the Bloc ask for.

If Harper loses between January and May, it's up to the GG, probably with a ruling from Federal court on whether the last election was legal or not in her pocket to help her decide.

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Originally posted by unionist:
Unbelievable, the ego of Dion. He thinks he still has some "service" to render his country, or his party.

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
I think Dion is holding out hope that the Conservative government will fall before the Liberal leadership convention in May, and he'll get another crack at it.

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Well, actually, you never know.

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Crosbie proposed an excise tax of 18 cents a gallon on gasoline, to reduce Canada’s chronically high deficit. Fiscally, it made sense; politically, during an election period, it did not.

However, it seemed safe enough to do so, for the Liberals were officially headless. Trudeau had resigned as party leader and announced his intention to retire to private life. Believing the Liberals impotent and expecting they would not dare to defeat the budget, the Conservatives jeered at their opponents across the floor of the House of Commons. It was not, perhaps, their most sensible tactic, but arrogance was now compounded by folly. Despite his narrow majority, Clark allowed some of his members to depart on official business. The minister of external affairs, Flora MacDonald, left to attend a NATO meeting in Brussels.

The Liberals did their sums, and found the government’s majority wanting. They also noticed that the Conservatives were behind in the polls. They defeated the government on the budget, leaving Clark no alternative but to dissolve Parliament a few weeks before Christmas, with an election scheduled for 18 February 1980.

The Liberals did have a problem. No Canadian party had ever contested an election without a leader. A leader must be provided, and with little alternative the party’s notables begged Trudeau to resume the mantle he had just shrugged off. Trudeau obliged.

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Originally posted by jrootham:
How wide is the Byng window? The Cons can't play chicken too soon or Dion will become Prime Minister. If that lasts until May things could change.

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You definitely cannot presume that Dion has some kind of rational or even longshot plan.

I had assumed before eDay that Dion could never force his Caucus into a no confidence vote. Now I wonder.

Its true that if they vote no confidence right away then they will get a crack at governing. But it will never last- another election will not be far off.

And based on what I know and surmise, I don't think the Liberals will even have the option of borrowing anywhere near what the Cons and NDP can borrow for running another election. They are simply too leveraged already. And election financing rules will likely make it difficult for them to use guarantees from individuals/corporations. Thats new terrain, so they probably could just get the guarantees and the violation charges will come after the election. Its all pretty dicey even if 50% of lawyers think it would work.

But none of that is Dion's problem. Maybe he wants the option of another election even if it means at half spending levels of the other parties.

And maybe he's just seeing if he can brazen this- having told himself he might later decide to back off an quit early.

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Originally posted by jrootham:
Harper will not declare any votes as confidence until he is sure that the GG will call an election.

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Originally posted by JeffWells:
You'd think a little humility would be in order.

Macleans

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Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:

I disagree - Dion wants another crack at an election. He can push for his party to vote against the next Conservative budget and anything else that they propose. His leadership opponents will look bad if they don't vote with him. Strategically he then forces the NDP or Bloc to vote with the Tories (or face an election they clearly don't want).

Dion gets another kick at the can as leader, and can focus on attacking the Tories on the economy, with a recession or slowdown (Conference Board of Canada is predicting slow growth, not a recession) more apparent.

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