Spend all day driving highways where there were no other cars on the road, no sign of human development, no billboards, in fact no sign that humanity ever existed except for the lone vehicle and the wonderful paved road.

Perhaps car advertising land during the day, and beer advertising land at night.

[ 08 March 2005: Message edited by: maestro ]

While the Prius is pretty damned efficient at 4.0 city and 4.2 highway, the base Echo Sedan is only $14,000 and gets 6.7 litres per 100 km in the city and 5.2 on highway (that's 42/54 mpg for you imperial dinosaurs out there) - still outstanding mileage, and just a one litre difference for long-distance trips. I'm also a bit worried about the cost of repairs on the hybrid engine. My feeling is that an Echo would last longer and cost less over the long term (we'll have to wait for the 10 year Prius repair records to see if I'm right or not).

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Originally posted by Igor the Miserable:
You're dead on when you suggest that aggressive acceleration and top end speed aren't worth the money, but I don't think driving a green label car is worth it either. Fifteen big ones could buy an awful lot of rainforest (or locally produced organic food, or insulation, etc.).

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As for acceleration and top speed they are mostly bragging rights, or a yardstick to compare vehicles as they have been for years. You don't see them listed for every vehicle (like minivans) mostly for cars with a "good" 0-60 time.

This is also (of course) marketing. Ahhh... The open road where you can relax and hit the gas and leave your problems behind.

I don't think they would sell many cars if they showed them stuck in traffic all the time; that might be a good ad for bicycles though.

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Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
Well, when it comes to city vs. highway, my understanding is that all cars except hybrids run up against a basic limitation of internal combustion engines. They're just inherently more efficient when they're going at speed, and they waste a lot when they're idling. Result--city traffic = inefficient.

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To a point, you're right about that. However, within the limits, engines and gear ratios can be designed for much better efficiency in urban driving at the expense of power and speed in rural driving. Competitive bicyclists change speed by changing gears; they keep pedalling at the same pace. Can you imagine a car with 18 speeds? My bike has them. An infinitely variable speed transmission would allow the engine to run at optimum speed most of the time.

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Originally posted by Cougyr:
What is interesting is that the Toyota Prius is the only vehicle that actually gets better mileage in the city than on the highway.

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i don't think the prius really gets better economy on the highway.

the reason is that the electric motor kicks in at city speeds, but not at highway speeds.

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Originally posted by sheik yerbouti:
i don't think the prius really gets better economy on the highway.

the reason is that the electric motor kicks in at city speeds, but not at highway speeds.

but the electric motor is charged by the petrol engine. so it's a bit misleading to treat electric power as 'free'. it's only as free as the power at your wall plug.

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Check US fuel economy ratings. Notice that the Prius is rated at 60 gal US in the city and 51 on the highway. That website has ratings for most vehicles.

Nobody says that electric energy is free. A gas engine wastes energy in two principal ways; heat out the exhaust and fuel burnt while idling. Electric motors don't idle and don't have an exhaust. A car with an electric motor not only wastes less energy, it captures energy when slowing by using the motor as a generator to recharge the batteries.

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Fuel economy is great but the best way to cut emissions and save fuel is still to reduce your miles driven.

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True enough. But in more remote areas, like where yours truly lives, that can be difficult, since the only way to efficiently access a lot of places and services is by car.

I'm really hoping for the perfection of non-fossil engines. Right now, the Working Opportunity Fund, the labour-sponsored venture capital fund, has some cash invested in a local BC firm developing water-hydrogen propellant motors (even better than Ballard fuel cells).

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I have a neighbor with a pickup powered by the largest engine Detroit makes. Why? Because for two weeks every year he uses it to tow his fifth wheel RV. All year long that truck is wasting fuel just so that the trailer won't lug down the motor when he goes on holidays. We all know people who do variations of that. We don't buy for what we need; we buy for our dreams.

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I want to do something more for the environment regarding my vehicle. Living in the rurals, driving is essential. I'm amazed that a pickup gets such poor gas mileage. They haven't improved much in the last 20 years. Looking at specs, we need a pickup.

But, the development of the hybrid changes the rules. Hybrids don't waste all their energy when they slow down by turning it into heat (in the brakes). They recapture as much as possible and store it in the battery, making it available to use next time they accelerate.

Thus, hybrids can often return better mileage in the city where this technology applies, than on the highway where they perfrom pretty much as normal cars.

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As for the 5000 lb trailer...tough call. Too bad there's no small diesel pickups in North America.

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We don't take the trailor on long trips. Just around 5 trips a year within 1-3 hr drive. It's our, but mostly my husband's sanity break.

[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: windymustang ]

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True enough. But in more remote areas, like where yours truly lives, that can be difficult, since the only way to efficiently access a lot of places and services is by car.

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OK, BUT....
I know there are plenty of people out there who just choose to live in remote areas and commute as opposed to, say, farmers who actually need to live on the land. For these people, I say (same as everyone else) live near where you work and you will use a lot less energy.

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I'm really hoping for the perfection of non-fossil engines. Right now, the Working Opportunity Fund, the labour-sponsored venture capital fund, has some cash invested in a local BC firm developing water-hydrogen propellant motors (even better than Ballard fuel cells).

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We have a similar problem. We own a tent trailer that when loaded weighs 5000lb. We currently own a twenty year old v8 car that gets terrible gas mileage. Our income is very limited because I can't work. We need to buy a vehicle that will pull the trailer, but also need to drive it when not camping. (more $ issues)

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To what end? What would be the motive?

I too find it troubling that pickup trucks today get worse fuel economy. But, if you look at the spec sheets for those 2 F150s, you'll find that the newer truck is significantly heavier and has significantly more power.

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Originally posted by Mike_W:
Too bad there's no small diesel pickups in North America.

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A real life result of our refusal to get serious with energy use management.

They showed some folks who've developed a method where they use solar energy to produce hydrogen. Also, they showed some of the interesting stuff happening in Iceland where they are working with geo-thermal power and hope to produce hydrogen that way.

If we can't sustain production of fossil fuels (see the peak oil discusions), there won't be a realistic way of producing hydrogen unless a new energy source is discovered. Even scarier, much of the currently produced hydrogen is used to produce fertilizer. Peak oil = more expensive fossil fuels = more expensive hydrogen = more more expensive fertilizer = less food.