quote:

---

Our objective should be multiple accounts that avoid privileging any single universalist or essentialist standpoint. We need understandings that can resonate with women's shared experience without losing touch with our diversity. The factors that divide us can also be a basis for enriching our theoretical perspectives and expanding our political alliances.

---

emphasis added
"Feminist Critical Theories". Deborah L. Rhode in
Stanford Law Review, vol. 42:617(doesn't seem to be available online)

quote:

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Our objective should be multiple accounts that avoid privileging any single universalist or essentialist standpoint.

---

quote:

---

What are multiple accounts?

---

What i guess it's about is women all over the world getting together and supporting one another on issues that are in all our interests; about respecting one another and communicating, even if we have different cultures and crises and enemies and ambitions.
We can do that. I think we could do it more effectively if we used words that are understood by the peasants as well as the professors.

I guess i lost touch with feminism when it became a university course. Not alienated or unsympathetic - just simply lost touch. I don't know the current language, so i don't understand what they're saying and have nothing meaningful to contribute. I fell away for lack of subtitles.
I wonder how many other women are in the same situation.

[ 06 October 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

Edited to add: my understanding of modern feminism is that it started as an elitist movement comprised mostly of well-educated liberal white women, and has evolved into a far less homogenous, less intellectual movement. The fact that it's now studied in universities is a good thing, but that doesn't mean that it's become incomprehensible. At least, that hasn't been my experience.

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

quote:

---

Our objective should be multiple accounts that avoid privileging any single universalist or essentialist standpoint. We need understandings that can resonate with women's shared experience without losing touch with our diversity. The factors that divide us can also be a basis for enriching our theoretical perspectives and expanding our political alliances.

---

Argh. I can't agree with you two more. This is a plaaaaague at universities, not just in feminism either.

Translation:

Our goal should be to to gather experiences from all kinds of women from all cultures so that we don't exclude them from the discussion, and, in the process, impose a one-size-fits-all, or an overy simple solution to the "plight of women".

We need understandings that can resonate with women's shared experience without losing touch with our diversity. (pretty straight forward, and redundant, IMO)

The factors that divide us (women the world over) can also be a basis for enriching our theoretical perspectives (perceptions of who women ARE) and expanding our political alliances (make us stronger in order to have a unified voice across cultures).

I would also assume that the author is trying to advocate for these stories to be interwoven without obscuring or essentializing any of them, and without making any of them more important or priveleged than the others in some delusion of universality, but instead building on the common ground of the varied and unique stories. 'We're all different, but we're the same in our differences'...kinda thing.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mush:
Isn't this the direction feminism's headed in anyway...intersection of race/ethnicity, age, class, gender, etc. is a hot topic, I thought.

---

I think age is becoming increasingly relevant to understanding women's diverse experiences- Gender discrimination at work operates differently for oder and younger women, fer instance.

quote:

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Clersal seems to find alot of it incomprehensible.

---

I must say that I did exaggerate.

quote:

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Our objective should be multiple accounts that avoid privileging any single universalist or essentialist standpoint.

---

There are more or less essentialist ways of talking about all sorts of issues -- in this context, issues that concern women. I can imagine, eg, essentialist positions on breast-feeding that would make many women feel put down for any number of reasons. I can also imagine advocating for breast-feeding without having that effect.

Essentialism is a term like fundamentalism or literalism: it describes people who make absolute claims for their own views based on their belief in something "essential" or "natural" to human beings or human nature.

The critique of that kind of thought is actually quite old, and comes in both academic and popular versions. Truly, I don't think that andrean started this thread to slag women who'd been to university recently.

quote:

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The factors that divide us can also be a basis for enriching our theoretical perspectives and expanding our political alliances.

---

While acknowledging that women have an incredibly wide variety of experience, and at the risk of sounding essentialist, I think that there is still some commonality in those experiences. Instead of focusing on the divisions, we should be looking for the common thread.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zoot Capri:

Instead of focusing on the divisions, we should be looking for the common thread.

(of course, Rebecca West has just put it so much better... Dammit! )

---

This is why feminists are focusing on women in third world countries. Of course they have lesser lives than us, and their "quality" is skewed in comparison to ours.

But when you look at these Kantian theories and marxist values aren't you concerned of the end result? I've recently written an article on Honor Killings, something I think is completely aweful, but in the end , similiar to Take Back The Night campaigns, what would be the solution?

I've been feeling that feminists have a narrow view of perspective aswell. They don't seem to have the empathetic concern outside of their sex and don't second guess cause and effect of what they push for. This is scary, considering that it's very possible that what's behind the curtain of feminism may not actually be in women's let alone anyone's best interest.

quote:

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I've been feeling that feminists have a narrow view of perspective aswell. They don't seem to have the empathetic concern outside of their sex and don't second guess cause and effect of what they push for. This is scary, considering that it's very possible that what's behind the curtain of feminism may not actually be in women's let alone anyone's best interest.

---

I've noticed that feminists all look the same, too.

In fact, I went to pick my mate up yesterday from her class and when I got home, I found that I had inadvertently picked up the wrong feminist . So of course I had to return the first feminist. I called for my mate. But they all sounded the same, too!!!

Luckily, I had forseen this problem and had cleverly sown a "Property of Sisyphus" tag on her sweater...

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]

quote:

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This is why feminists are focusing on women in third world countries. Of course they have lesser lives than us, and their "quality" is skewed in comparison to ours.

---

I've been feeling that feminists have a narrow view of perspective aswell. They don't seem to have the empathetic concern outside of their sex and don't second guess cause and effect of what they push for. This is scary, considering that it's very possible that what's behind the curtain of feminism may not actually be in women's let alone anyone's best interest.

In short, is feminism for and by women completely?

[/QUOTE]

Feminism, femme, female....Yep I think feminism is about and for women. However if you try and say something sensible you might benefit from this thread. Remember,IF.

This flood control is screwing up the quotes.

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: clersal ]

quote:

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You mean you sewed it on her sweater yourself???

---

'Course not, silly, men can't sew. I got my non-feminist next-door neighbour to do it.

Though, I'm thinking a facial tattoo might save a whole lotta time. I wonder if she'll go for it. Hmmm.

I'll have to ask Dan Lynch if all feminists like tatoos, too. I think Shane has mentioned something to that effect, but it could just be a pesky urban legend.

Golly, it's really great to have all these smart guys around to use as resources.

quote:

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I'll have to ask Dan Lynch if all feminists like tattoos, too.

---

I thought Shane was talking about lesb- oh wait, I get it

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Lynch:
[QB]

But when you look at these Kantian theories and marxist values aren't you concerned of the end result? I've recently written an article on Honor Killings, something I think is completely aweful, but in the end , similiar to Take Back The Night campaigns, what would be the solution?

Yes, I'm tremendously concerned about the dangerous effects of TBTN campaings. Clearly the road to perdition

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: Mush ]

Then what are the qualities of a feminist?

If there are different points of view and different kinds of feminists than feminism means nothing.

Or is it a physical quality that feminists are women, or that women by being female are just feminists no matter what they think.

There are many different types of christians but they all have a fundemental belief that christ is their leader and they should follow his guidance.

Some feminists like Christina Hoff-Sommers think that second wave feminism and third wave feminism has gone to far. That bogus rape and domestic violence statistics are not helping women they are hurting women. Because of this she recieves a lot of backlash, but her genuine interest is for women to be safe. I think she believes that if women are under constant fear from false statistics and misleading information that it is harming women just as much.

quote:

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If there are different points of view and different kinds of feminists than feminism means nothing.

---

Your comparison to Christianity is actually a good one, even though you don't see it.

Feminists are diverse.

But they do have a common thread.

I feel I'm safe in saying that all feminists believe that men and women are equals. That women deserve fair and equal treatment by the state, law, and society.

quote:

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Then what are the qualities of a feminist?

---

Dan Lynch:

After thinking really hard, I was going to respond to your request for a definition of feminism. Then, while standing up and taking a leak, I realized: "Hey, I'm standing up and taking a leak!". In light of this epiphany, I thought it might be a tad presumptuous on my part to define "feminism".

quote:

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I've recently written an article on Honor Killings, something I think is completely aweful, but in the end , similiar to Take Back The Night campaigns...

---

I hope everyone on this thread will join me in a big hearty glass of

A person who feels-

That women are of equal value and societal importance to men.

That females are as intellectually capable of doing anything a male can do.

That women are objectified in most media as nothing more than sex objects.

That women and girls are at risk to be sexually assaulted, one in three was the last stat I saw.

That women have been discriminated against in the workplace and have recieved less pay for equal work, and that this is unjust.

That women have been undervalued for the domestic work that they did and continue to typically do.

That women are people, and are therefore as diverse as people are in general, for example, not all women are good "nurturers" or mothers not all women are preoccupied with appearances, not all women are disinterested in mathematics, science, politics and athletics, not all women enjoy cooking, decorating and fashion.

quote:

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Originally posted by Trinitty:

I feel I'm safe in saying that all feminists believe that men and women are equals. That women deserve fair and equal treatment by the state, law, and society.

After that, it's pretty wide open.

---

Okay, that's closer to the mark. But what happens if the veils of equality go to far the other way? As in some are more equal than others, and who really gets to decide said equality?

In law there is basically 12 women only defences for murder. None for men. Such as when Straus delivered his work in the 'battered wife syndrome'. Later when Steinmetze was working on her work 'the battered husband syndrome' feminists threated to kill her children.

So if domestic violence is a two way street why is there more lienancy for women in the courts?

Are feminists really interested in equality or just protectionism? Un-declared feminists such as Erin Pizzey, who work hard for women, don't get the same voice as other feminists. Erin Pizzey opened the first women's shelter and ironically she has been denied web space at every single feminist and domestic violence site run by feminists in the western world.

So don't be shocked when this women who trys to contribute all her energy into doing a marvelous thing for women and society and I come to the feeling that feminists are nothing but hypocrites.

quote:

---

Then what are the qualities of a feminist?

If there are different points of view and different kinds of feminists than feminism means nothing.

Or is it a physical quality that feminists are women, or that women by being female are just feminists no matter what they think.

There are many different types of christians but they all have a fundemental belief that christ is their leader and they should follow his guidance.

---

A general definition has been given you already, Dan -- People who feel that women should have rights equal to men are feminists. They may be male or female, of any colour or nationality, be of any political stripe, be it capitalist or socialist, conservative or liberal, fascist or communist. Or anywhere in between.

That would be the obvious bit.

You seem to have the misconception that radical marxist feminists are all the feminists that are out there, or that they somehow speak for all feminists. Let me disabuse you of that notion. It's a pile of crap. It has not been my experience that this is the case, and I have been a feminist for many years now.

The diversity of feminism does not render it meaningless. It simply means that it is harder to understand, especially for men of your particular stripe. Christianity, as you used as an example, means different things to different people and still seems to hold some meaning for you. But I'm willing to wager that every Christian's relationship to God/Jesus is diverse in comparison to others, even those of their own sect.

As I mentioned above, not all feminists are women. Many of the posters to this thread are male feminists, and I have the great fortune to be spending my life with one. All that is necessary is to believe that women are equal to men, and that their treatment in society and under the law should reflect this.

quote:

---

But when you look at these Kantian theories and marxist values aren't you concerned of the end result? I've recently written an article on Honor Killings, something I think is completely aweful, but in the end , similiar to Take Back The Night campaigns, what would be the solution?

I've been feeling that feminists have a narrow view of perspective aswell. They don't seem to have the empathetic concern outside of their sex and don't second guess cause and effect of what they push for. This is scary, considering that it's very possible that what's behind the curtain of feminism may not actually be in women's let alone anyone's best interest.

---

Says who? You? And who are you to tell me what's in my best interest?

What Kantian theories and Marxist values? That people should be equal? That I should be able to do what I do for a living without having to distract some yo-yo from my secondary sexual characteristics in order to strike a deal? That's got nothing to do with Marx or Kant, my friend, it has everything to do with the practicalities of day to day life.

For the record, I don't care what you've written about. Your comments show a deep and fundamental ignorance of women's issues, the large and small. I am probably a good deal more concerned than you are about how things shake out in regard to the status of women and I don't think you are any more capable of forecasting how feminism is affecting our society than I or anybody else on this thread is.

Hell, I just made a documentary about striking coal miners. I know a lot of facts, but I left it to the miners themselves to tell us what it's really all about. It wasn't my place to say.

In regard to empathy for males, I think that's ridiculous. I have great empathy for males, as do many of the other feminists that I know and love. Some of us even have husbands, with whom we intend to spend our entire lives. Even more of us have males as friends and relatives that we value and care deeply about. I don't know where you're getting this nonsense, but that's just what it is.

quote:

---

Some feminists like Christina Hoff-Sommers think that second wave feminism and third wave feminism has gone to far. That bogus rape and domestic violence statistics are not helping women they are hurting women. Because of this she recieves a lot of backlash, but her genuine interest is for women to be safe. I think she believes that if women are under constant fear from false statistics and misleading information that it is harming women just as much.

Many argue she is not a feminist. Under your definition she is. So which feminism is right?

---

I wouldn't argue that she is not a feminist. There are some points of equity feminism that speak very clearly to me, and that are in opposition to gender feminism. However, like all fallible humans, I also believe she is wrong in a number of other respects.

Like that Christian thing, I can read my own doctrine my own way. Kind of like the differences between Baptists and Catholics -- they agree on a fundamental concept (Jesus is a god), but the dogma as to how this should be handled is different.

quote:

---

After thinking really hard, I was going to respond to your request for a definition of feminism. Then, while standing up and taking a leak, I realized: "Hey, I'm standing up and taking a leak!". In light of this epiphany, I thought it might be a tad presumptuous on my part to define "feminism".

---

Would that other standing leakers should have such an epiphany! You are truly outstanding among men, Sisyphus!

And now, 'lance, where is that glass?

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trinitty:
[QB]Welllll, how I define a feminist is as follows:

A person who feels-

That women are of equal value and societal importance to men.

---

Okay, this is the best post so far.

I agree, women are of equal value and societal importance to men. I don't think you have to specifically be a feminist to believe this. I feel that the difference are though in how that equality is acheived.

quote:

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That females are as intellectually capable of doing anything a male can do.

---

As a generalization this could be true, but the proof has to be in the pudding of the individual. Women tend to lean towards language men math as you somewhat lead to in your next point.

quote:

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That women are objectified in most media as nothing more than sex objects.

---

I would argue that both men and women are objectified in the media. This is not the fault of either or sex it is the fault of the medium itself. There is very little you can gain from a television set or a magazine ad about someone. The true attack is at comercialism in my opinion. Something communists hate as well.

quote:

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That women and girls are at risk to be sexually assaulted, one in three was the last stat I saw.

---

This is where we part company. I seriously doubt these statistics and I believe you would too if you were to look at the methodologies, which I will ad will also put men in the same catagory of statistics for being sexually assaulted by women.

Communists also used rape to warmonger women into rally. Of course the communist never gave a rats ass about women other than using them as a type of foot soldier to accomplish propaganda distribution.

Men and women are sexual beings and sex is being used as a stalinistic type of societal control on all of us. There are many dedicated to the work and research of sexual assault stats. The most reputible ones challenge these frivilous stats and blankely discredit them for fearmongering. These stats harm all of us, not just men but women too. It terrorizes them and creates a hostile atmosphere of distrust. I've seen stats being thrown around ontario at 2/3 women are sexually assaulted.

Just as Mary Koss tried to prove that 1 in 4 college girls were raped, other's came along using Koss's research and proved under the same loose definitions of rape being used, men too were raped at a rate of 1 in 4.

Sound and sober research is what we need, not outrageous propaganda spins.

quote:

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That women have been discriminated against in the workplace and have recieved less pay for equal work, and that this is unjust.

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Less pay for equal work is unjust. However Christine Stolba points out that the methodologies for women getting less pay is because they choose feilds that pay less and work jobs with more flexible hours in regards to their choice. Rarely are women getting less pay based on equal experience , equal education etc... once the the research is exposed for its flaws the truth comes out.

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That women have been undervalued for the domestic work that they did and continue to typically do.

---

This is something I find interesting. I'm not sure the original source of undervalued women's work. I've seen communists do this over and over and granted housework sucks but it has to be done. As technology excels women can do many jobs they couldn't do or would do before. The conditions now in the work world are far different then they were a hundred years ago. I thin the people who told you that women's work was undervalued were trying to plant a seed into you, they weren't entirely from each and every family. This is an area where I feel a manufactured reality has been imposed on women for a set purpose to motivate them into action.

This link here shows a Ms Magazine cover. http://www.feminist.org/fmf/graphics/store/I92-JF.jpg

It says Rage + Women = Power. Now imagine for those who are interested in keeping women in 'rage' can learn to manipulate women into action which will ultimately give them awesome powers. I feel we are slipping more into a police state everyday, but what's worse is that these women are living their lives in totaltality of anger, hate and rage. This is not how I want my daughter to live her days on this earth. I want her to be happy and joyful. Free of fear and ready to take on life.

quote:

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That women are people, and are therefore as diverse as people are in general, for example, not all women are good "nurturers" or mothers not all women are preoccupied with appearances, not all women are disinterested in mathematics, science, politics and athletics, not all women enjoy cooking, decorating and fashion.

---

Your last quote affirms my previous remark. Even here you use the point that women are not always good nurtureres, and I've seen these points so repetitively I suspect it as a brainwashing tactic. However that aside I agree, women should persue what they want to persue, not be forced to persue goals that either favour conservative values or feminist values. Women should not be taking up math or engineering so that feminists can say "see we told ya." They should be allowed to follow their instincts and true feelings.

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: Dan Lynch ]

quote:

---

Here you are, Zoot. Alberta Muscatel, fresh from the gallon jug. You might want to let it... ah, not breathe, exactly, more like vapourize awhile.
Well I did say it was plonk, yes? And doubtless, after all that, anything alcoholic would be welcome?

---

Without question. You're an angel of mercy, 'lance. Many thanks.

quote:

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Are my famous Brownies welcome? All for a sip of Muscatel. What is Muscatel made of?

---

Ooooh! Clersal's famous brownies! Don't mind if I do...

Muscatel? Ingredients? Does it matter?

(Zoot wanders off aimlessly, giggling to self...)

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

quote:

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Are my famous Brownies welcome?

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Why, my dear clersal! Of course! Do come in, do come in.

quote:

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All for a sip of Muscatel. What is Muscatel made of?

---

Er... let's just say "grapes," and leave it at that.

Heh,heh, I outwitted Flood control. I'll bring my own beer.

Hey we can discuss just by editing and reading backwards so to speak. HAHAHA.
This is fun.

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: clersal ]

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: clersal ]

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: clersal ]

Let me tell you what happened the last time I seriously got into Muscatel. It was an Australian vintage I believe. Or maybe Pennsylvania. Or maybe I should blame the Maple liqueur chasers, I dunno, but it was awful. It all started like this!

The squirrels of Tanry Doon draw closer 'round my house.
First a few, then by the score,
Now legion, in the thousands they mass.
Ten thousand flaming eyes
Burning, united in an ancient rage.
Tails bristle in hatred.
Little paws form tiny fists, raised in anger.
The stacatto of acorns pepper my plate glass window
Hurled in malice.
I peek from curtains drawn
Hiding in the attic, safe for now,
My mind races.
What primal god had I offended.
A silence falls
As one they move,
One single mind to ancient fury bent
The squirrels of Tanry Doon.
It is a dark day.

[ 07 October 2003: Message edited by: clersal ]

quote:

---

A general definition has been given you already, Dan -- People who feel that women should have rights equal to men are feminists. They may be male or female, of any colour or nationality, be of any political stripe, be it capitalist or socialist, conservative or liberal, fascist or communist. Or anywhere in between.

---

Ya but that's b.s. the world is a competitive one, a woman can not on standard run as fast as a man. Is your idea of letting women start 10or 20 metres ahead in a 100metre dash going to help women? That isn't a description of what a feminist is anymore than it's a description of what women are. Unless you are equating the two as one. A feminist has a far more distinct conception of what a feminist is.

So far people are just throwing insults at me because they can't challenge my notions. That feminist statistics are skewed into a protectionism racket that creates inequality rather than equality. Feminists confuse sexuality and instinct in women. That things like hetrosexuality is a social construct. Which is rediculous because than that means any sexual choise is a sexual construct.

Feminism may very well be all those things, but, feminism is being used for some very serious societal wrongs on the world too. Those issues need to be addressed, but if the Canadian feminists have their way criticising some of these wrong forms of feminism will become illigal.

quote:

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That would be the obvious bit.

You seem to have the misconception that radical marxist feminists are all the feminists that are out there, or that they somehow speak for all feminists. Let me disabuse you of that notion. It's a pile of crap. It has not been my experience that this is the case, and I have been a feminist for many years now.

---

It doesn't destroy that principle basis that a) many feminists believe the same line of bull because they see it enough times, showing that all feminists are somewhat alike. b) I only see this as an evasive tactic for women not confronting the real issue of women losing power of individuality and voice based on a protection racket. The general definitions are weak and based mostly on lies. Their version of equality is to force a cat to bark to be the same as a dog.

quote:

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The diversity of feminism does not render it meaningless. It simply means that it is harder to understand, especially for men of your particular stripe. Christianity, as you used as an example, means different things to different people and still seems to hold some meaning for you. But I'm willing to wager that every Christian's relationship to God/Jesus is diverse in comparison to others, even those of their own sect.

---

Again you make assumptions about who I am or my intelligence simply because I won't comply to the reasoning being given. Feminism is a right vs left dichotomy. It is meant to collectivise women and use them knowing full well women are easier to manipulate on a whole under certain common issues. It is socialist to the bone. It is not necessary for a christian to vote to follow his beliefs. Christians may have different relationships with their god, but, fundementally it is not muslim. In your approach a feminist could be a masculist and call herself/himself a feminist because it doesn't matter.

quote:

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As I mentioned above, not all feminists are women. Many of the posters to this thread are male feminists, and I have the great fortune to be spending my life with one. All that is necessary is to believe that women are equal to men, and that their treatment in society and under the law should reflect this.

---

Most women in western countries get special treatment. Why would feminism even exist under your assertion?

quote:

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Says who? You? And who are you to tell me what's in my best interest?

---

Just a good hearted samaritan. Or if I want I can call myself a feminist.

quote:

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What Kantian theories and Marxist values? That people should be equal? That I should be able to do what I do for a living without having to distract some yo-yo from my secondary sexual characteristics in order to strike a deal? That's got nothing to do with Marx or Kant, my friend, it has everything to do with the practicalities of day to day life.

---

You can do whatever you want for a living, but should you also be allowed to tell people they have to hire you even when they don't want to? If someone wants to look at your breasts what's the crime? Usually it's rude, but, are you here to take away their rights possibly by plucking their eyes out?

quote:

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For the record, I don't care what you've written about. Your comments show a deep and fundamental ignorance of women's issues, the large and small.

---

Or I'm just not so easily fooled by malicious statistics and fearmongering propaganda that ends up harming both sexes.

quote:

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I am probably a good deal more concerned than you are about how things shake out in regard to the status of women and I don't think you are any more capable of forecasting how feminism is affecting our society than I or anybody else on this thread is.

---

Actually I have proof that I forsaw that women would eventually be arrested in dv disruptions and lose out just as men did previously. Women are going to jail losing their kids, and their freedoms with the laws that feminists fought for. My concern is that women are being used and that the power women are fighting for is silently being stripped away from them and leaving women even more vulnerable than before.

quote:

---

Hell, I just made a documentary about striking coal miners. I know a lot of facts, but I left it to the miners themselves to tell us what it's really all about. It wasn't my place to say.

---

In a democracy everyone has a voice and according to you I can be a feminist if I want. My brand of feminism is not to call my self a feminist and to question the public policies being brought forth by lobby groups calling themselves feminists. A miner is a distinct thing unlike your definition of feminist which you claim is expansive as the bright blue sea.

quote:

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In regard to empathy for males, I think that's ridiculous. I have great empathy for males, as do many of the other feminists that I know and love. Some of us even have husbands, with whom we intend to spend our entire lives. Even more of us have males as friends and relatives that we value and care deeply about. I don't know where you're getting this nonsense, but that's just what it is.

---

quote:

---

feminist statistics are skewed into a protectionism racket that creates inequality rather than equality. Feminists confuse sexuality and instinct in women.

---

quote:

---

feminism is being used for some very serious societal wrongs on the world too.

---

quote:

---

many feminists believe the same line of bull because they see it enough times, showing that all feminists are somewhat alike

---

quote:

---

Their version of equality is to force a cat to bark to be the same as a dog.

---

quote:

---

Feminism is a right vs left dichotomy. It is meant to collectivise women and use them knowing full well women are easier to manipulate on a whole under certain common issues.

---

You have never read anything written by a feminist (as you stated in another thread) and yet you are able to deduce all manner of things about us and our stated objectives.

quote:

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Most women in western countries get special treatment

---

quote:

---

I'd be interested to know what you mean by "special treatment".

---

Women always get the soft gloves in our society. Everything from the courts to ladies nights, women rarely have to go through any hardships like the draft.

Not that it matters in perspective to my points, but don't you think that some of those inconsitancies have actually made women on a whole not exactly equal?

If they don't have to face the draft then women are not held to the same accountability.

quote:

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You have never read anything written by a feminist (as you stated in another thread) and yet you are able to deduce all manner of things about us and our stated objectives.

---

Whats the difference? I know that after world war two the Rockefeller institute stopped funding Nazism and starting funding women's programs in universities across the U.S..

It is not by coincidence that radical feminism and nazism are extremely similiar in design.

I've studied enough brain-washing programs to know exactly what is at play here.

I've research the fact that Betty Friedan was a hardcore communist for years and completely lied to america about her status.

I know that research involving domestic violence done at Alberta University showed that men and women were just as likely to commit violence to eachother. I also know that the research showing the violence agianst women was pelted all over the media in no time flat. The research of violence against men was buried for years. Now the issue here is is why would they do that? Why not just inform the public of what was really going on so that we could create a public policy that helped people on a whole new level? Instead what we got was zero tolerance laws and incarceration levels. A stalinistic version of family invasion and reportive atmosphere. Now Ottawa is coming out with stories saying "Well it looks like women are more violent than we had thought, gee, sorry our bad." So now women are facing this exact same Stalinistic approach to domestic violence interventions instead of a level headed approach. Ottawa basically lied because the government knew way back in 89 exactly what was going on.

These people are manipulating women, not to give women power but to take it away from them. Albeit women who on the whole think they are doing the right thing, are doing so with the wrong information.

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Women always get the soft gloves in our society. Everything from the courts to ladies nights

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(Again, I'm excluding the great Dads out there who've been actively parenting their kidlets all their lives, and yeah, assholes make the system harder for everyone, don't they.)

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They don't seem to have the empathetic concern outside of their sex

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This is the line that sickened me most about Dan's maunderings and stopped me from ever posting again while he was still around.

Anyone who has been reading babble for a while knows that there are all sorts of feminists here who are caring for families and others in all sorts of ways. There are mothers, working inside the home and out. There are daughters, granddaughters, wives caring for men with a variety of medical conditions. There are creators collaborating with non-paranoid male partners on cultural and social and political projects.

Feminism hasn't stopped any woman I know from loving or caring for others, and a deep capacity for, yes, empathy remains, I think, the most striking human strength that traditional feminine upbringing (however problematic it was in many other ways) has instilled in the vast majority of women. It is a strength, not ours alone but definitely a generalized strength among women, and we must remember that and honour it.

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Though, I'm thinking a facial tattoo might save a whole lotta time. I wonder if she'll go for it. Hmmm.

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Little bit of historical perspective on feminism (actually it wasn't that long ago that a woman actually had to WRITE this):

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Karen Horney (pronounced HORN-eye) "The view that women are infantile and emotional creatures, and as such, incapable of responsibility and independence is the work of the masculine tendency to lower women's self-respect" (Feminine Psychology, 1932)

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Here's another I have found fascinating: Dr. Elizabeth Matheson

At one time the only doctor within a hundred mile radius, she'd respond to emergencies, often carrying one of her babies on her back. I met her daughter, Ruth Matheson Buck, for whom my elementary school was named.

skdadl, I was very much bothered by the same comment as you were. I was always incredibly close to the men in my family, and took an active role in caring for both my dad and my grandfather in their last days. I couldn't have done that without a certain level of empathy.

This is another one that really made me angry:

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You can do whatever you want for a living, but should you also be allowed to tell people they have to hire you even when they don't want to? If someone wants to look at your breasts what's the crime? Usually it's rude, but, are you here to take away their rights possibly by plucking their eyes out?

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Why must we be hired? Or that we must force people to hire us? What about people like myself, who are entrepreneurs? I can guarantee that other men in my position don't deal with anywhere near the disrespect I have had to shut down in my time. Perhaps it isn't criminal, but it's damned inconvenient. I haven't got time for that sort of crap.

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Here's another I have found fascinating: Dr. Elizabeth Matheson

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Very impressive. Hey Zoot: "Coming to a theatre near you", perhaps?

[ 08 October 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]

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Communists also used rape to warmonger women into rally. Of course the communist never gave a rats ass about women other than using them as a type of foot soldier to accomplish propaganda distribution.

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Having misrepresented feminism, the author moves on to other systems of belief.

Read Alexandra Kollontai, then get back to us.
Or Sheila Rowbotham, even.

Editted to add: This, by the way, is utterly false. There are NO defences available to men only. "Battered women's syndrome" is available to anyone who takes defensive action in a "battering" situation.

Most of the people battered are women. You may find this hard to believe, but in my experience it is utterly true, just as most lynchings in the American South involved blacks, not whites.

But I would have no difficulty defending anyone who had been battered, irrespective of sex.

[ 08 October 2003: Message edited by: jeff house ]

I know I left that violin case around here somewhere....

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Oh, and Sisyphus? Anyone who thinks that women cannot pee standing up has clearly not contemplated the many uses of the ordinary-but-extremely-useful funnel. Or perhaps has never heard of this handy product.

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Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit, what'll they think of next!

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Maybe we should head up to Parliament Hill come winter and find out!

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Well...I am empiricist at heart...

[ 08 October 2003: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]

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Oh, and Sisyphus? Anyone who thinks that women cannot pee standing up has clearly not contemplated the many uses of the ordinary-but-extremely-useful funnel. Or perhaps has never heard of this handy product.

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Am I a Communist, or a Nazi?

I have no idea what outfit to put on in the mornings!

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Sheesh, what a marroon that guy was!!!!

You did good, babe.

As for peeing standing up: I mean, honestly. If you're wearing a skirt and no pants, then all you have to do is walk outside to a nice stretch of grass, stand there, look up at the moon and smile, and presto!

Peeing standing up. I shall share with you a story.

When I was about two winters old, I walked in on my male cousin going pee... STANDING UP. I was BAFFLED.

Being five, he didn't care about the intrusion and explained to me that HE could pee standing up because he was a boy, and that I COULD NOT because I was a GIRL He scampered off to play in mud or whatever it is boys do.

Not to be denied, I Trinitty, 24 month old egalitarian, promptly stood infront of the toilet, pulled down my bottoms (I think they were training pants) and peed. All over my grandmother's floor.

Hilarity ensued.

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'lance, while the offer of *plonk* was appreciated, that was a job for Baker's Bourbon.

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Why, my dear fellow. Wherever are my manners. Here you go.

Any other orders? 'lance's Café Canadien, now open. Everyone comes to 'lance's...

Edited to add:

Good Lord, whatever became of andrean's potentially very serious thread? Well, andrean, at least it wasn't I who fed the troll...

[ 08 October 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]

Ahem.

I'm very sorry Andrean. It was an interesting topic.

I personally get my different perspectives on womens' lives in developing nations and other cultures from the midwifery and birth books that I like to read.

The process of getting pregnant, going through the pregnancy and giving birth have different ceremonies and customs everywhere one goes.

Nutrition and housing are highlighted. It's usually women helping women and passing wisdom along.

Issues like clean water, familial relationships and healthcare are all discussed as a result.

I also read "Milk, Money and Madness: The politics and culture of breastfeeding" It highlights what formula companies have been doing to women and their infants in developing nations, and their effect on Industrialised ones too.

Very enlightening.

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Originally posted by audra estrones:
Okay, Dan. You got your way. You're banned. Now you can write some big essay crowing that feminists stifled you because they can't handle the truth.

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Hee. "You wanna know the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

Sorry. Old movie lines always come to mind when I see something related

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Originally posted by Mush:
Yeeesh...I'm glad that's over. It really makes me wonder though how many young (am guessing here) men like Dan there are out there who equate feminism with nazism.

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Also offensive in the additional sense that throwing 'nazism' around like that cheapens the true horror of that period.

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Anyway, people rightly ignored Dan because he was too arrogant to really try to learn anything. But are there any suggestions for constructive ways to deal with people like him when we encounter them in our own lives? This is a problem I ofen have- I am often at a loss when dealing with that kind of...stupidity.

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[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

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Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
Don't worry about Dan. He's just the backlash. Nobs like him are bound to crop up whenever there is social change. He's a blip on the radar screen, nothing more.

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Originally posted by Madame X:
Dan Lynch sounds like he is beyond help. He is just looking for atttention. Some men have a difficult time with discussions about topics that are not centered on them. They find that oppressing I think you could call it.

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Gosh, but I think they are the greatest invention. Very spicy, very non-fat. I have started using them in my favourite Italian-sausage recipes, and find the translation works even better if I serve them over Asian rice noodles rather than spagettini.

A great fast one-pan supper:

Brown spicy Thai chicken sausages; remove to cutting board and slice into 1-inch pieces. Return slices to pan and brown cut sides quickly.

Quickly add coarsely cut sweet peppers -- I use two, one red, one yellow -- and sprinkle with a pinch -- or two or three -- of hot chili seeds.

Add a cup or so of water and bring to a boil, scraping up all the browny bits as you go.

Add one cup chopped parsley. Simmer till parsley wilts.

(I like to keep adding just enough water to ensure that I have some gravy at the end of all this.)

In the meantime, put rice noodles in a collander placed in a large bowl. Pour boiling water to cover the noodles; wait four or five minute; strain.

But before it gets the better of me:

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That sounds like an convenient way to shut anyone out if you don't want to be open minded.

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I think that women and feminists have been plenty open-minded through the years. We've given audience to all sorts of arguments from the dangers of women controlling their own reproductive functions to the horrors of the female vote and the horrible suffering of the sacred family unit should women enter the work force. We've listened and acknowledged and in the end, you know what?

We didn't give a shit. These 'points of view' are just more attempts to control and condemn women to survitude and second-class status. Women are people just as men are and as such, we feel completely and wholly entitled to the agency, self-determination, and group solidarity that men have enjoyed since the dawn of time.

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: URnotmeRU ]

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: URnotmeRU ]

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]

Lalance used to do that all the time. Gee, sometimes I miss her.

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That sounds like an convenient way to shut anyone out if you don't want to be open minded.

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Why is it the nut case always accuse others of being close minded when their ideas are rejected as faulty thought and hate spew? And how is it that they are so fucking stupid that they can’t grasp that they aren’t actually having original thought and that most people have already discarded the notions they hold dear as utter crap and moved on.

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like a pile of cowshit, nothing happening here, just another miserable bitch, folks.

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Wow, this so makes no sense, he needs help with his flounce.

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not open your views to the rest of the world, then go fuck youselves you narrow minded self serving bigoted blocker whore bitch. There is nothing progressive about you or your following, idiot.

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Denial a bitch isn’t? Your sooooo progressive and open minded!

And no fuckwit, babblers won't be wasting our time at a pissant forum like yours, I'd rather register at freedominion.ca.

Such a great invention.

Do not ban this stunning example of why I am proud to be a man!

I love this guy. West Wing was so dull last night and this has perked me right up.

edited to add

Hinterland, that string bean recipe sounds great. I am going to try it on Sunday.

[ 09 October 2003: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
I've always wanted to try brining something....speaking of which, is UR just about done?

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