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Originally posted by Berlynn:
I'm a little ticked that not one piece on the front page of today's rabble.ca mentions the ancient celebration of Beltane which is the origin of Mayday.

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[ 01 May 2006: Message edited by: Makwa ]

As far as I can tell, they say that there was once, probably before Christ, a holiday celebrated around May 1st. It was called Beltrane.

Then, in in the 1880's, workers began to celebrate that same day as workers' day.

The critical question is whether there is any actual RELATIONSHIP between the two holidays, other than coincidence.

None of your sources come close to establishing that.

Here's my question: Do ANY of the materials produced at the time of the first workers' Mayday make reference to Beltrane as a predecessor?

As far as I know, the answer is no. But please, enlighten us if there is any actual evidence.

PS. For what it's worth, here's what Wikipedia says:

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International Workers' Day (a name used interchangeably with May Day) is the commemoration of the Haymarket Riot of 1886 in Chicago, and a celebration of the social and economic achievements of the international labor movement. The 1 May date is used because in 1884 the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions, inspired by labor's 1872 success in Canada, demanded an eight-hour workday in the United States to come in effect as of May 1, 1886.

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[ 02 May 2006: Message edited by: jeff house ]

Set amid chapters on peasants and witches in late feudalism, on pirates and slaves during the rise of mercantile imperialism, on fraternal lodge members and anarchists in the new cities of industrial capitalism, on lesbians, homosexuals and communists under fascism, and on the mafia, youth gangs and race riots, jazz, beats and bohemians in modern U.S. capitalism, are two chapters that brilliantly tell the story of May Day.

One locates Haymarket in the context of the Victorian bourgeoisie's fears of what they called the “dangerous classes.� This account confirms the central role of the “anarcho-communist movement in Chicago [which] was blessed with talented leaders, dedicated ranks and the most active left-wing press in the country. The dangerous classes were becoming truly dangerous.�

The other chapter, a survey of “Festivals of Revolution,� locates “the celebratory May Day, a festive seizure of working-class initiative that encompassed demands for shorter hours, improvement in conditions, and socialist agitation and organization� against the backdrop of the traditional spring calendar of class confrontation. "

May Day has been a historic festival of revolution, which is why it was adopted in Europe in solidarity with the Haymarket Martyrs.

I also echo the last post -- there is a long history of resistance to capitalism here, and it is only in recent times we have forgotten this history, that begins in the days of primitive accumulation and the dispossession of the peasantry.

Or even further back:

DENNIS:
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR:
Bloody peasant!
DENNIS:
Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?

[ 03 May 2006: Message edited by: ceti ]

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Yeah, I was surprised by all the anti-Beltane sentiments here, as if celebrating it took anything away from May Day itself.

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But really, it is just historically inaccurate to claim that Labour Day and Beltane are in any way related.

May Day. Another great reason to love May 1.

Two great days that go great together.

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Eugene Plawiuk: Really folks you are falling down on your social history.

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OK, so the two celebrations are part of an overall stream or culture of resistance. That's a useful reminder. This ideology of "A is A", "B is B" with impermeable barriers between them is sorta antagonistic to nuanced understanding of history that includes social history. My Marxist side wants to note that a dialectical approach wouldn't make such an error - but that would be doctrinaire of me, wouldn't it?

Those who deny that social classes even exist (and there are plenty of such people, including many babblers who should know better) probably don't feel obliged to acknowledge the history of social classes either. Threads here on babble relating to the simple assertion that class is an essential social variable without which a good political or economic strategy is impossible meets with the most vituperative and hostile response from otherwise "progressive" people. Nevertheless, the promotion of social history goes on anyway, and mighty successfully, I might add. Consider the CBC's A People's History of Canada or the upcoming People's History of Hockey. Canadians eat up this stuff. There is the best proof of the usefulness and the truthfulness of such an approach.

Thanks for the "rescue" - which is what people like Thompson did in writing their social history. It's a great thing that there are some Canadian historians who continue this tradition as well. After all, the Canadian working class will never govern this country unless there is a cultural movement of telling the story of our class associated with any political movement that brings a working class party to power.

[ 04 May 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Whose reality Jeff. Yours? Thats just revisionism. But of course reality is history written by the victors.

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Well, that's a good way of excusing historical inaccuracy, isn't it? Just pretend that there is no reality, just competing, and identically valid, points of view.

Myself, I don't think history depends on power. I think it is possible to write that "No one involved in the creation of modern MayDay knew or cared anything about Beltrane."

Of course, I agree that you might be able to prove me wrong, but only by showing that the founders of modern May Day DID know about Beltrane. And that proof is lacking.

Invoking E.P. Thompson won't disguise that absence of proof.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
This has got to be the dumbest thread I have seen in a long time.

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I just want to take this moment to thank you for your support of feminism.

According to the link,Beltaine is celebrated halfway between spring and summer solstices.

I believe Beltaine to be a lovely idea.All those churlish Communists usurping May 1 notwithstanding.

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I just want to take this moment to thank you for your support of feminism.

Patriarchy rules, even at babble, eh?

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I've supported feminism since before you were born.

I don't support silly claims which don't withstand examination, whether these claims are made by purported feminists, or purported anti-feminists.

I've asked about three times for ANY evidence that Beltrane was known to the founders of modern MayDay.

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And just when I thought the thread couldn't get any dumber!

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It's possible that Berlynn was mistaken about May Day having usurped Beltane. Berlynn, you have to accept that people are going to disagree with you if you state something that they do not believe to be true, especially if they have sources that show Beltane and May Day to come from two completely separate sources and they just coincide on the same day. It's not anti-feminist or patriarchal or "anti-Beltane" to argue that.

That said, M.Spector, I would really appreciate it if you didn't tell people their threads are dumb, even if you think it was started with a mistaken premise. I'm not sure what you thought you were adding to the discussion, but I can assure you it was not helpful.

slimpikins and jeff house, there is no need to mock as you did earlier in the thread, even if you do think someone is mistaken.

There, did I miss anything?

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I do not consider myself sensitive enough to express myself in a manner acceptable to those who need a protected environment for their thoughts.

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Honestly, I don't think anyone needs a protected environment for their thoughts.

[ 05 May 2006: Message edited by: Secret Agent Style ]

Even after it has been pointed out that your bullying is not appreciated,you continue to press your point.

I am on thin ice here,I know but I assume that the topic is regarded more on an emotional level-a connection with past rituals-by proponents of Beltaine.

Ridiculing the cultural aspects of non-mainstream rituals,belittling their relevance by unfavourable comparisons to workers celebrations and equating respect for the sensitivities of practitioners with treating them as children is not progressive.

Secret societies are notoriously...secret. They're like that to survive the police state, then as now. The Knights were known to have been inspired by some parades in New York City and, amazingly, Toronto.

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As late as the 18th century various trade societies and early craft-unions would enter floats in local parades still depicting Adam and Eve being clothed by the Tailors and St. Crispin blessing the shoemaker.

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Yet the Knights of Labour were modelled very much like the union that represented shoemakers. The latter were called "the Knights of St. Crispin".

The secret traditions of peasants and the early working class took life in the early heroic efforts of organizations like the Knights of Labour. The Knights borrowed secret membership rituals from Masons and others. It's not at all a stretch to suggest that our great class, the working class, found a way to preserve symbols of its origin, secretly, in the face of the enemy, and said nothing. But if true, it's lost in time. However, there's no reason why we can't rescue our own pre-history. You never know what we might find.

[ 05 May 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by jester:

Ridiculing the cultural aspects of non-mainstream rituals,belittling their relevance by unfavourable comparisons to workers celebrations and equating respect for the sensitivities of practitioners with treating them as children is not progressive.

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It has been pointed out that the real origin of the labour-centric Mayday came from an event in American history. Nobody has shown any evidence whatsoever that it has anything to do with Beltane. It is not up to Jeff or anyone else to prove that the two aren't linked. The onus is for the other side to prove they are linked, other than falling on the same date.

The debate in this thread isn't about the worthiness of Paganism or anything to do with feminism. I have no idea why this is in the feminism forum in the first place! The debate is about logic, basic facts and historical revisionism.

As for your comment about progressive values, making up stuff and failing to prove them isn't a progressive value either.

[ 05 May 2006: Message edited by: Secret Agent Style ]

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Secret Agent Style:It has been pointed out that the origin of Mayday came from an event in American labour history. Nobody has shown any evidence, whatsoever that it has anything to do with Beltane.

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Its origin came from an organization with strong and secret traditions to the past. Those traditions include Beltane and other Celtic practices that were banned by the Catholic Church just as May Day was "banned" and replaced with "Labour" Day by governments many centuries later. The link, however, if it exists, may well be secret. Of course that's not "proof" of a link - nor, I should add, is it disproof.

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Originally posted by Secret Agent Style:

The only thing being criticized is the still-unproven notion that the worker's holiday Mayday has its origin in Beltane.

It has been pointed out that the real origin of the labour-centric Mayday came from an event in American history. Nobody has shown any evidence whatsoever that it has anything to do with Beltane. It is not up to Jeff or anyone else to prove that the two aren't linked. The onus is for the other side to prove they are linked, other than falling on the same date.

The debate in this thread isn't about the worthiness of Paganism or anything to do with feminism. I have no idea why this is in the feminism forum in the first place! The debate is about logic, basic facts and historical revisionism.

As for your comment about progressive values, making up stuff and failing to prove them isn't a progressive value either.

[ 05 May 2006: Message edited by: Secret Agent Style ]

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I assume that Berlynn posted in the feminism forum so that the subject could be addressed from a woman's point of view rather than being bombarded by male logic.

Why did the strikers choose to march on May first? Is there any evidence that they were influenced at all in this choice by the thought of Beltane, or if any of them had ever heard of it? Were there practical considerations affecting this choice, such as good weather, or other reasons for choosing to strike just then?

Since Beltane was celebrated before our calendar was created, it took place around this time, not specifically on May 1st.