I thought it might be worth reviving the thread to note that the court has decided to review the decision en banc (before a larger 11 judge panel). Arguments were heard yesterday in San Francisco.

The San Francisco Chronicle reports:

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A federal appeals court peppered lawyers with questions Wednesday about men in lipstick and women forced to wear demeaning placards while pondering the question of whether a casino can require female bartenders to wear makeup.

An 11-judge panel of the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco was obviously divided over the application of civil rights laws to employers who set different standards of grooming and appearance for women than for men. The case may determine how far employers can go in enforcing dress codes that are, as defense lawyer Patrick Hicks put it, "consistent with social norms."

"How can you tell social norms from sexual stereotypes?" Judge Alex Kozinski asked Hicks, who represented Harrah's, owner of the Reno gambling hall where the case arose.

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[ 23 June 2005: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]

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"How can you tell social norms from sexual stereotypes?" Judge Alex Kozinski asked

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Even more unfortunate and bizarre are the social pressures that push women to wear/do these things.

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Originally posted by arborman:
Even more unfortunate and bizarre are the social pressures that push women to wear/do these things.

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Not to mention those of us who would on principle question or condemn these things, yet still engage in them in practice (for me, makeup, in small amounts, that is.) I still don't know what that means. I don't feel the huge societal pressure, but if I happen to see a woman who looks really good, and her well-applied makeup has obviously made a positive enhancement to her face, it's a big incentive to do same.

People have always taken at least some pleasure in decorating their bodies and their faces -- that must be a basic good thing about us, I feel.

It is just the more decadent, rigidly enforced sorts of decoration that either bore me or irritate me to rebellion.

No! Seriously!

People have also decorated their bodies out of a sense of reverence for the body or for life, or sometimes ecstasy, what might be formalized as religious ecstasy but again has to do with wonder before life-forces -- I meant to add that to the pure pleasure line above.

That's an interesting reason to decorate as well.

I really dislike enforced dress codes, though not because I find them restricting (they aren't really, as long as they are not gender-based). When women are expected to spend extra money on something like makeup - a cost not expected of men - that bothers me.

If men were also expected to buy and wear makeup, I would find it odd but not offensive in a gendered way.

[ 23 June 2005: Message edited by: Raos ]

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Originally posted by lagatta:
I'm not fond of a lot of makeup either, but I think this accesorisation phobia is a bit of a cultural divide - there is an anglophone cultural thing (shared by many Germanic cultures ... but not Viennese ) that likes what is "straightforward", honest. Some of us find that terribly boring and drab, and like a bit of decoration.

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Originally posted by brebis noire:
Ya, while we're on the subject, would somebody please tell me what colour my lips are supposed to be? I'm the curious type.

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I agree with skdadl--ewe probably look good in almost anything. One of the fun things about makeup is experimenting & trying lots of variations.

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Originally posted by Raos:
The general rule of thumb for what I think looks alright for make-up, is if I can tell it's make up. I think it's one thing to try and hide blemishes or even out skin tone or something similar, that can look nice, if you make it look as natural as possible. When you use makeup to create an artifical construct, I think it looks stupid. You may as well be painted like a clown. As Arborman said, when it's obviously fake, like too high drawn in eyebrows, or blue or green or pink eyelids, it isn't attractive. It doesn't look human to me.

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See, I disagree with this.

To me, putting on make-up to try to look "natural" is worse, at least politically, than putting on make-up for the fun of decorating yourself with make-up. The reason being that putting on make-up to look "natural" or as if you aren't wearing any kind of reinforces the idea that women SHOULD look a certain way naturally, and if they don't look that way naturally, that they "need" make-up to help them look that way.

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Originally posted by Michelle:

See, I disagree with this.

To me, putting on make-up to try to look "natural" is worse, at least politically, than putting on make-up for the fun of decorating yourself with make-up. The reason being that putting on make-up to look "natural" or as if you aren't wearing any kind of reinforces the idea that women SHOULD look a certain way naturally, and if they don't look that way naturally, that they "need" make-up to help them look that way.

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Why not leave it up to the workers to decide which products, if any, they want to use to achieve the desired look? How patronizing to say that not only must I achieve a certain look, the boss knows better than me what products I must use to achieve that look.

I have no idea what would have happened had we refused. At that point, it had been ages since I wore make-up regularly since I was a student and didn't bother. I wore it, but didn't like the fact that I HAD to wear it. It was particularly galling considering that The Body Shop makes a big marketing issue of how women are fine as they are, and blah blah blah. I probably should have had fun with it and wore it garishly.

I don't wear make-up every day - it's hit and miss for me. I like wearing it for fun, but I often don't bother.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

edit: gosh darn images are so tricky

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Nikita ]

On a personal note, I do wear some makeup occasionally, but I have no problem not wearing any most of the time.