babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » walking the talk   » feminism   » Male Feminists

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Male Feminists
spatrioter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2299

posted 03 October 2002 05:12 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Last year I discovered something interesting in some of my high school class discussions.

Whenever the topic of feminism came up in law, history, sociology, philosophy, and other courses, I noticed that I seemed to have more extremely feminist views than the females in my class, even though I am a male. For example, one discussion in philosophy class ended with all of the female students agreeing that feminism is okay up to a point, and that it starts to get bad when "feminazis" push too far. It seems kind of backward, but I was the only one arguing that it is not possible for feminism to have gone too far when women are still not paid the same wages as men, do not have the same access to employment seniority, are frequently discriminated against on a daily basis, and are looked down upon when they dare to venture outside of the house instead of raising a family for her husband.

I know it is sexist for me to assume that I know what's best for females and argue for them, but I can't help but think that today's young females are being brainwashed by our androcentric culture when they say things like only men should have the right to go topless.

So I'll get to my basic question. When should male feminists back down? Should we not speak up for women's rights if the women aren't doing so themselves?


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
rosebuds
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2399

posted 03 October 2002 05:53 PM      Profile for rosebuds     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the concensus is that you need to realize that you AREN'T speaking up for women. You are speaking up for yourself.

Living in a patriarchal world isn't good for any of us. It gives power to men but takes away their humanity.

So, as far as I'm concerned, feel free to argue and debate and stand up all you want. Just don't pretend to "understand" women's experiences. Think about your OWN experiences in a patriarchal world. And be aware that you aren't speaking on anyone's behalf. You're speaking for yourself...


From: Meanwhile, on the other side of the world... | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
brie
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2867

posted 03 October 2002 06:04 PM      Profile for brie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 21 June 2004: Message edited by: brie ]


From: vancouver | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 03 October 2002 06:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that's a common phenomena among high school girls. I found the same thing at the beginning of my frosh year of university among quite a few of the women straight out of high school.

I have a theory about it, which I think I mentioned in another thread. I think it's because those girls have not yet had to live in the real world, on their own, experiencing glass ceilings in their careers, and experiencing the "double shift" in their marriages (that is, when both the husband and wife are working full time but the wife still does most of the domestic chores). They're still in the world of peer pressure and conformity and competition with each other over boys to an extent that adult women have outgrown. They often say "Oh I'm not a feminist" because they're still at their most valuable stage of life - young, smooth-bodied, potential wives, mothers - all those things that are traditionally valued by society about women - so when you're at the peak of your "traditional" value, why wouldn't you HAVE "traditional values"? Also, they don't want to seem too "unfeminine" to the boys at school.

I did notice a few feminists in high school while I was there, though. Not many. And hardly any boys that I would consider "feminist" or who would consider themselves to be "feminist" or "pro-feminist", whichever term you feel most comfortable using.

It's nice to see there are some pro-feminist high school boys out there.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2299

posted 03 October 2002 11:44 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the input, guys! (or should I say girls?)

In high school I'd agree that there weren't that many feminists... But then again, there weren't that many guys who had any progressive views whatsoever.

I've only been at university for about a month now, but I've heard that the only guys who take women's studies courses are either gay or trying to pick up girls.

Is this true?


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
adlib
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2890

posted 04 October 2002 06:02 AM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey spatrioter and all.

Spatrioter, in terms of arguing with women about feminism:

It is obviously a good thing, as others have said, to have your own opinion and to have that be in support of feminism. Please consider, though, that even with all the social pressure you probably face while confronting sexism, women face very serious social consequences when they confront patriarchy directly. So it is a very good thing to fight sexism and support feminism, and you have the privilege of being able to choose to do so or not.

My only advice, therefore, is to keep going. Obviously if you've been able to figure these things out at in the environment of high school, the rest of the world will provide endless opportunities for you for further growth and awareness. If you can just keep in mind that women have reasons sometimes for making choices you might not agree with, and that has to be respected. I think it's important to be supportive of women, and not set up dichotomies of good/bad, strong/weak, feminist/not feminist, because these are harmful to us all.


From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Shenanigans
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2993

posted 04 October 2002 10:15 AM      Profile for Shenanigans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know several men who have a better understanding and framework of feminism than most women do. None of them are gay (not that they would feel that being labelled one is a bad thing either.)

Honestly, when I first learned that I was going to be taking Intro to Feminism in college, I groaned and winced. That was a little more than a year ago, and have things ever changed! LOL I think it has to do with internalised sexism. Patriarchy likes to paint those who oppose it, as bitter, angry, unloving, humourless, birkenstock wearing old bats, which I've found outside the anger *g* pretty untrue. We've been for so long programmed to think that patriarchy is good, feminism is the dark side of the force. So take that into consideration. Honestly, I wish every woman could have the teacher who taught me Introduction to Feminism, she dealt with those issues (as well as teaching us a heck of a lot in a semester-mainly how to remove those rose coloured patriarchy glasses) and proved through her humour, intelligence, passion and unique style that she is a wonderful person and someone who we all wanted to be like (in our own way of course)

It is sexist to presume that you know what is best for women, it is also very unethical. Feminism is largely about women's choice and their right to do so. I have to keep my mouth sealed everytime a client decides to go back to her abusive partner and that's hard! I think rosebuds has really summed up how to speak of patriarchy and all it's various forms very nicely. The same can be applied to racism, heterosexism, ableism. People, even on this forum have tried to get me to speak to the experiences of people of colour in socialist movement, and I can't. I can only use "I statements" and the same goes for anyone.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2077

posted 04 October 2002 10:42 AM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I've only been at university for about a month now, but I've heard that the only guys who take women's studies courses are either gay or trying to pick up girls.

Is this true?



Not in my case. I took a Women & Politics course in university because I was interested in the subject; simple as that. I think there were two other males in my class of about 20 people. And similarly to your high school experience, I was the most pro-feminist of the whole group, perhaps even more than the professor (who was female).

I always find the whole stereotype of universities as bastions of commie pinkos and ultra-feminists laughable. I ran into way more conservative and wishy-washy liberal professors and students than leftist/progressives at university. I was always the most left wing person in my classes, and I'm just a middle of the road NDP voter.


From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 04 October 2002 06:57 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's a good discussion.

First off, I'd refrain from calling yourself a male feminist. I call myself pro-feminist, because I'm a man. We could talk about it more, but it's not the hugest issue.

Secondly, listen to what the women around you are saying. Listen for what's not being said. What do they do? What do they have to do?

I am in an educational setting which is overwhelmingly female to work in a field which is overwhelmingly female. I've chosen that position deliberately. The work is about the only work I could really enjoy without compromise while being treated decently enough that I could stick at it. I like being around women more than men. Feminity is a form of alienation. Masculinity can be a terrible form of alienation.

I've also got a lot more education than my classmates. Some of the women will say "you know so much" or something along those lines. I'll just say I've got a university degree already, been politically active/engaged since the Gulf War, had journalists for parents, come from an upper middle class background, and the social milieu I'm in is full of radical or heretical intellectuals of one form or another. I've been beaten by cops, attacked by Neo-Nazis, gone through all sorts of utter crap, but in a context where my friends were either active ot passive antiracists, feminists, queer/AIDS activists, so I've learnt from that. These are forms of intellectual or cultural capital, and they're accumulated the same way capital is -- exploitation.

It's not a question of guilt, but rather "responsibility". I mean "responsibility" not as a burden, but as an ability - we are able to challenge authority and male supremacy and white supremacy. We can do it.


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
billybob
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3168

posted 05 October 2002 04:28 AM      Profile for billybob        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pro-feminists? God darn it, what kind of men are you guys? You sound like a bunch of babies. Men are men, and women are women. No doubt you guys walk around wearing your girlfriends' panties.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, heh, heh....


From: Rhode Island | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 05 October 2002 08:14 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
About two years ago, when I was going through a post-40 crisis, my wife, who often works with cops, told me that some of them hit on her. I became incensed and asked her why she permitted it. She told me, "Well that's how men are." I said, well I'm a man and I don't do that. She replied, "You're different." In my insecure state of mind, I blew up at her for questioning my manhood and told her to tell me when it happened again and I'll blah, blah, blah.

Now the point is not my wife's reaction, believe me she's no "shrinking violet," and she assured me nothing "lewd" was involved and that they were "just kidding." The point is that I think my reponse, whatever the reason, was more "feminist" than hers.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 05 October 2002 09:34 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
billybob if you can't post from a feminist viewpoint you can't post on this forum.

OF course you sound like you're twelve so maybe you don't know what feminist means.

Josh, look more closely at your intentions. Don't mistake feminist reaction and jealousy.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
adlib
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2890

posted 06 October 2002 04:16 AM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Josh, being feminist is about supporting women. If your wife isn't responding in the way you think she should to her co-workers, it's probably because she can't, for her own reasons. What she probably needs from you is your support, not advice, and not judgement.

Have you ever had someone do something crappy to you, and then when you tell another person about it, they say things like, "Why did you let them do that? Did you want it? Why didn't you do a) or b)?". You might respond with all the reasons they aren't understanding as to why that wasn't or isn't possible, or you might just get frustrated with their condescending attitude and change the subject.

But you aren't going to walk away from that discussion feeling like someone just gives a crap about you, and the crap you put up with, and respects you and what you do to deal with it. Except in the rare occasions when advice is specifically asked for, if you want to help someone make good, positive decisions in their lives, advice is less helpful than support.


From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2299

posted 06 October 2002 07:38 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What she probably needs from you is your support, not advice, and not judgement.

That's exactly what I wanted to discuss, adlib! Are you a real feminist if you express pro-women views that aren't held by the majority of women? The things I argued for would have benefitted the female students in my class in my own opinion, but if they weren't arguing for those things themselves (such as toplessness -- I was the only one who thought that women should have the right), then is it helping the females that I argue for these things? Or is it just me blowing hot air when I should be listening to what the women have to say?

BTW, thanks for all the input from everyone -- men, women, and 12 year-old children!


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
adlib
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2890

posted 07 October 2002 01:40 AM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Are you a real feminist if you express pro-women views that aren't held by the majority of women?

Well, what you quoted from me was in response to someone who was not in a theoretical discussion about feminism- his wife was not reacting to sexism the way he wanted her to. This is not feminism. Viewing sex workers as "victims", talking about how so-and-so is a "strong woman" (what other kind are there?), are not feminism. IMO, feminism is about solidarity. Not everyone agrees with me on this (or anything), it's just my view, take it or leave it.

So, in yuor example, when you're having a theoretical discussion in a mixed environment, it can be very hard to figure out your place. Even hanging out with groups of women, I often find myself in the middle of women-bashing. So, what do you do?

Well, I think it's fine to say what your opinion is, if you stay conscious of not taking up too much time. It also is a good idea to give credit for where you got your rad feminist ideas- something like, "well, some women feel blah blah blah, like I was reading in this article by Angela Davis...". The less you paint yourself as an expert on feminism, which is, after all, about/for/by women, the more I think other women will find your points interesting. But whether or not you think something is in women's best interests, people know their own lives better than anyone else can, and even if you (and the person you're quoting) are right, nobody wants to listen to someone speaking for them.

Traditionally feminist issues are really complex, and often when women appear to be arguing against a feminist concept, they are just adding a layer of complexity based on their own experience. These are things from which we can all learn from.

Examples;
-the debate about porn, degrading? empowering? (I think it can be both)

-valid critiques of feminism, such as Solourner Truth's 'Ain't I a Woman'. Her piece exposed the racist and classist assumptions in white feminist theory of the time, which was that all women's biggest challenges were sexism (not racism, for example), and the view that women were seen as weak and delicate, and not allowed to work outside the home. Whereas Sojourner explained that as a former slave, she was never seen as "weak", but was expected to (and did) work as hard as men, and working-class women had worked "outside the home" since industrialization (and before?), it was only upper-class (white) women for whom these were the primary obstacles.

I just realised that I've been babbling. Sorry. Anyway, my point is, you're on the right track. Listening more is always good. Congrats, BTW, on getting out of the hell that is called high school...

adlib...


From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2077

posted 07 October 2002 02:26 AM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I just realised that I've been babbling.

Nothing wrong with that. That's what this place is for, hence the name.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]


From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
rosebuds
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2399

posted 07 October 2002 09:53 AM      Profile for rosebuds     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Are you a real feminist if you express pro-women views that aren't held by the majority of women? The things I argued for would have benefitted the female students in my class in my own opinion, but if they weren't arguing for those things themselves (such as toplessness -- I was the only one who thought that women should have the right), then is it helping the females that I argue for these things? Or is it just me blowing hot air when I should be listening to what the women have to say?

Again - I don't think that you need to argue your "feminist" views in order to benefit women. You need to argue them to benefit YOURSELF. If a world where everyone is seen as equal and where anyone can walk topless down the street seems to be a better one to you, then it doesn't matter that a lot of women you encounter don't necessarily agree.

You aren't arguing the benefit of women. You are arguing the benefit of humanity.

And it's important to remember that a lot of young people are caught up in a need to "fit in". I think it's a natural part of adolescence and young adulthood to a certain extent. The mainstream belief, right now, appears to be that feminism is a nasty word, and feminists are extremists.

I'm 30 and I'm just coming to terms with a lot of what this feminism stuff means. I played along with the status quo for a good portion of my young life, but as experience teaches me things I become more aware and active.


From: Meanwhile, on the other side of the world... | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lima Bean
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3000

posted 07 October 2002 12:02 PM      Profile for Lima Bean   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In high school and the first few years of my undergrad, I thought I wasn't a feminist. I thought feminism was all wrong because it was exclusionary and didn't quite cut it as a mechanism for social change anymore. I thought it was all about crying injustice and then pouting until something happened. But, you see, I only really new about the consciousness-raising of the sixties, the fanaticism of Andrea Dworkin (imo, of course), and the pointless arguments I'd had with men and boys that just frustrated me. It didn't have enough context for me yet, and none of it seemed relevant to my own life just yet.

Older now, and a little better informed perhaps a little teensy bit more world-weary, I've got a much more holistic view of what it is to be a feminist. Someone up earlier on the thread said for her it's about solidarity, and that's sort of true for me, but it's also very individual. Each woman I know is a feminist in a different way, each with her own particular causes and issues. All of us together, though, tend to take care of one another, listen to each other, and support flows freely among us, in whatever form is most needed and most appropriate.

For me, it was a difficult road, and it continues to meander and rise and fall. I'm deciding all the time what's important to me, and what kind of feminist I really am, how I express it, and how to live so that my actions are faithful to my politics.

It seems to me that men can and do walk the road too, but in my experience so far, they're just a little slower and more cautious. Occasionally they turn around and go back, sometimes they get sidetracked and end up in the ditch, and often I see them as sort of standing still, proudly, as if they'd arrived and the journey is ended. "Here I am in the land of Feminism. And look! There's nobody else here!! I must be the smartest, fastest feminist man there is!!!"

The best advice I could offer a blossoming pro-feminist of any gender is to just keep on walking--keep developing your views and opinions. Take in as much information as you can, listen and learn always, and don't ever stop. There is always further to go.
For all of us, I'd say.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Lima Bean ]


From: s | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Activist Network
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3179

posted 08 October 2002 03:26 PM      Profile for Activist Network   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Regarding males taking women's studies because they're "gay or trying to pick up girls":

As a guy who has taken many feminist courses at university, my smarmy, sarcastic, retort has always been "yeah, a course where we learn about all the evil stuff men have done and continue to do to women is a great place to 'pick up chicks'."

In reality, the women's studies courses were the most personally challenging and intellectually exciting courses I took at university. The instructors weren't 'disinterested academics' - they had a strong personal interest and engagement in the topics that created an amazing environment of shared growth in understanding.

And, no, I never did get a date from any of those courses
(although there were many wonderful people, some who remain good friends these many years later).


As to whether men are "pro-feminist", "real feminist", "pro women" or whatever: I am a feminist, man. I am consciously working to eradicate sexism and patriarchy from myself and society. I try to reject social divisions based on sex or gender (and most other social divisions, too).

Am I free of male privilege? Am I free of sexist behavior? Do I consistently ignore sex and gender in my treatment of others? No - but is anyone else completely free of sexism in this patriarchal society? I'm trying, and making mistakes and learning. This is a daily struggle - made easier by conscious engagement (and mutual support) with those around me.


So, why do some feminist men feel more radically feminist than the women in their lives? Maybe because we have the privilege of being able to get away with it - safe while being vocal. When I proclaim my radical anti-patriarchy views, it doesn't threaten my job. It doesn't stop me from getting a date. It doesn't threaten my social ties.

Maybe there's an element of machismo in taking a 'hardcore' stance or seeking the status of 'biggest' feminist. Maybe we're fitting our expression of feminism into the traditional 'male protector' role. Maybe there's a sense of needing to 'prove ourselves' by taking an extreme position.

Whatever it might be, I try to temper my male impulses with continued dialogue. There's always more to learn and experience.


From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
stevendude
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3181

posted 08 October 2002 10:34 PM      Profile for stevendude     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
billybob if you can't post from a feminist viewpoint you can't post on this forum.

Surely this viewpoint doesn't support free debate? (Even if the guy does call himself Billy-Bob.)


From: venezuela | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 08 October 2002 10:41 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Pro-feminists? God darn it, what kind of men are you guys? You sound like a bunch of babies. Men are men, and women are women. No doubt you guys walk around wearing your girlfriends' panties.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, heh, heh....

This is not debate but sabotage.

From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
MJ
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 441

posted 08 October 2002 10:45 PM      Profile for MJ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
stevendude,

check out the description of the forum on the babble frontpage, to wit:

"Discuss feminist issues from a pro-feminist point of view. "

If people can't respect that, there are lots of other sections of babble where they can participate. In fact, well over 95% of the board, by message count, is available to them if they really can't stand to be pro-feminist.


From: Around. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
stevendude
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3181

posted 09 October 2002 12:56 AM      Profile for stevendude     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Steady on, big fella. Don't get me wrong. I'm a pro-feminist. I'm even married to a pro-feminist.

I'm just a teeny weeny bit suspicious of debates where the viewpoint is pre-circumscribed.

But hey, what do I know... I'm new to this neighbourhood, right? I'm here to learn.


From: venezuela | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 09 October 2002 11:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And welcome to the neighbourhood, stevendude.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
adlib
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2890

posted 10 October 2002 03:35 AM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Steady on, big fella. Don't get me wrong. I'm a pro-feminist. I'm even married to a pro-feminist.

About what men who want to support feminism call themselves-

I personally don't give a troll what you call yourself, it's how you act that counts to me. In my experience, there is absolutely no indirect or direct correlation between how someone describes themselves in this regard, and whether they actually do or don't support feminism.

And to stevendude directly- you sure haven't gone a long way to proving yourself "supportive" at this point, given the way you've "introduced" yourself in this forum.


From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca