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The treacherous NAFTA agreement, which prevents Canada from reducing oil exports to the United States or from setting lower domestic prices, must be abrogated immediately. Instead of integrating further into a U.S.-dominated "Fortress North America", Canada needs diverse, sustainable, and mutually beneficial trade based on respect for the economic, political, social and cultural sovereignty of all countries.

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Canadian unity can be maintained and promoted by working class solidarity and only by working class solidarity, for it is the capitalists that are always trying to divide us, so as to maintain their ruling class power and wealth.

But for the rest of us, anything is possible if the will is there. The same way it once seemed unthinkable that there would be old age pensions or public healthcare or unemployment insurance or even the opportunity for the poor to get a public education, the working class has been able to force change.

The federal government could force nationalization on Alberta with the stroke of a pen. Whether Klein and the oil companies would like it, is another thing. But to say it's impossible is just plain bullshit.

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Originally posted by rbil:
Can't believe how some people just can't think out of the box....

The federal government could force nationalization on Alberta with the stroke of a pen. Whether Klein and the oil companies would like it, is another thing. But to say it's impossible is just plain bullshit.

Cheers.

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That type of thinking is more outside the planet than outside the box.

But since Mulroney, the FTA and NAFTA we've moved away from protecting the national interest.

NAFTA was sold to us as a way to solve the softwood lumber dispute amongst other things. After 20 years of us still getting screwed its painfully obvious to all that NAFTA is dead dead dead...and time for us to get out of it.

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Originally posted by rbil:
Can't believe how some people just can't think out of the box.

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How is recycling the policies of Clement Atlee's Labour govt 'thinking out of the box'?

[ 14 October 2005: Message edited by: Stephen Gordon ]

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Originally posted by outlandist:

That type of thinking is more outside the planet than outside the box.

I do not disagree with a better return for Canadians from their resources but it must be done within the law.By unilaterally attempting to exert control of provincial resources granted under sec.92 of the Constitution Act,the federal government would consign the country to an acrmonious and divisive future,domestic and international.

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How is recycling the policies of the Clement Atlee's Labour govt 'thinking out of the box'?

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Originally posted by rbil:
The federal government could force nationalization on Alberta with the stroke of a pen.

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Originally posted by radiorahim:
And believe it or not, the Bill Davis Tories in Ontario partially nationalized Sunoco...IIRC they said it was to give the government "a window on the oil industry".

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What they did in 1981 was buy a 25% interest in Suncor Inc. And they sold their interest in 1993.

This had nothing to do with nationalization, partial or otherwise. It was purely an investment, and not a very good one, as it turned out.

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Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
Only to those with short memories.

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If it really is a free market, then why can't the public participate in our own oil economy with publicly-owned enterprise as the Norwegian's are doing - as is done in Venezuela, Libya, Iran to some extent.

Even though it lost by a slim margin, Attlee's labour government still won more votes than the conservative party in 1951.

Not everyone in Britain is happy with Maggie's selloff of the country's silverware and family jewels for quick cash. Conservatives and Labour alike are now looking at the current American model for social security to improve on Britian's inadequate plan for seniors. It’s "actually cheaper for the state to carry the risk," says Chief Executive Christine Farnish, adding that in looking for a system that offers the best combination of modest guaranteed retirement benefits and low cost, the U.S. Social Security program seems the best model. "It doesn’t have to make a profit, and it delivers efficiencies of scale that most companies would die for," she says.

[ 15 October 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Ichy Smith:

How much better return on oil and gas do we require? Including the GST, provincial and Federal taxes we are getting 40% of the price of a litre of gas now. The problem is that governments are an incredible sinkhole for cash. Where exactly did you think Paul Martin is getting the surpluses from. It isn't from the taxes he pays........

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Ichy, you mention the government take on domestic consumption while my focus is on the owner's return on resources at the wellhead.

Also to be considered is the political capital created by nationalised energy interests.

NAFTA has increased trade with the US but it has not increased the benefits of that trade to ordinary Canadians.GATT,IMF,World Bank,NAFTA are not the solution,they are threat from a different direction.

Canada requires an independent foreign and defense policy as well as new trading partners to ease dependence on US trade.

Having control over its energy supplies rather than allowing foreign interests to take the risk and reward would give Canada more clout in the international arena.[more as in more than none]

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Fidel says:
Paul Martin has stolen from billions from Canadian workers UI-EI-O fund in producing those "surpluses."

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Originally posted by Ichy Smith:

How much better return on oil and gas do we require? Including the GST, provincial and Federal taxes we are getting 40% of the price of a litre of gas now. The problem is that governments are an incredible sinkhole for cash. Where exactly did you think Paul Martin is getting the surpluses from. It isn't from the taxes he pays........

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What you are talking about is canadians being taxed on the refined product. That is, you get peanuts for the 'national resource' - I think it's somewhere in the vicinity of 15% at the wellhead -, get to pay world price, and then get to pay taxes on top of that world price.

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Yes but how do you want to rectify the problem? Lowering UI premiums for workers and emplyers. Or making collecting benefits easier eroding the incentive to work. Or pouring the money into worker training programs.

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High premiums paid into the UI programI(which most people know they will never collect) certainly "erodes the incentive to work". if a person knows they have a skill they can market "off paper".

What pompous fool can believe these words!

If we were to nationalize the oil under “democratic workers control” there would not be opposition to this from the working people, and would only unify the country more. It is important to note that the highest level of support for the nationalization of Oil is in Quebec and stands at something like 67%

Unity for the working people of Canada!

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Originally posted by Tory Spelling:
Yes but how do you want to rectify the problem? Lowering UI premiums for workers and emplyers. Or making collecting benefits easier eroding the incentive to work. Or pouring the money into worker training programs.

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