I think he's probably right.

Don't fall for Washington's spin on Haiti

[ 02 March 2004: Message edited by: Doug ]

By the way, Haiti received over 2 billion dollars in aid from Clinton, what happened to that money - who got it..Aristide?

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Originally posted by Cueball:
[QBHaitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide was kidnapped by U.S. forces eager for him to resign and flee into exile[/URL]

!!!!!![/QB]

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Aristide: 'U.S. Forced Me to Leave Haiti'

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I can't believe you guys would fall for this, really.

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I can't believe you would automatically assume people believe things because they post them, really. It should not be posted?

Even funnier is that you assumed my political position based on article, which is mostly, US adminstration people denying that a kidnapping took place. Bizarre!

Or perhaps you are suggesting that reporters should not report testimony of people involved, because (you say) there is an accounting problem? Amazing!

Really it brings the reliability (and bias) of your analysis into question. Your other assumption is that it is not true, of course. Perhaps they 'kidnapped' him because they think he stole all their money? What relevance is that to whether they kidnapped him or not?

[ 02 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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. I can believe they talked him into resigning, but kidnapping...lets get real, the spotlight is too glaring right now for them (U.S.) to be so stupid.

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I don't know what happened. But I do know that the Venezuelan military kidnapped THEIR President last year, and before he could be interviewed, the US accepted the lie that he had resigned. They recognized the new government immediately.

Then it turned out that the military coup plotters had met with US foreign policy bigwigs three days before the coup.

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Originally posted by radiorahim:
The Financial Times????

Well that's a left-wing commie pinko propaganda rag if I ever saw one.

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Originally posted by jeff house:

But I do know that the Venezuelan military kidnapped THEIR President last year, and before he could be interviewed, the US accepted the lie that he had resigned. They recognized the new government immediately.

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[Quibble] in point of fact [/Quibble]

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Q - Okay, I have another question, somewhat linked. Many persons are saying that the United States government promotes democracy all around the world, but when it came to Haiti, we just walked away.
MR. McCLELLAN: No, actually, we came to a democratic and constitutional resolution of the situation in Haiti. And now we are working to move forward to help the Haitian people realize a better future and a more free future. It was the actions of Mr. Aristide, in large part, that led to the current political crisis in Haiti. I just talked about some of the actions by Mr. Aristide. He failed to adhere to the democratic principles and his obligations called for under the CARICOM plan.....
Sometimes people lose faith in their leaders. Sometimes people lose faith in the ability of their leaders to govern effectively. This is not the first time that this has happened. It certainly happened in our own country.

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Then read PRESIDENT URGES HAITI'S WOULD-BE BOAT PEOPLE TO BEWARE THE TERRIFYING VOODOO CURSE THAT LAYS WASTE ALL WHO DARE TRESPASS NEAR PIVOTAL FLORIDA COUNTIES

[ 03 March 2004: Message edited by: Non-partisan partisan ]

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Sometimes people lose faith in their leaders. Sometimes people lose faith in the ability of their leaders to govern effectively. This is not the first time that this has happened. It certainly happened in our own country.

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http://www.counterpunch.org/williams03012004.html

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Also forgotten is the fact that members of the armed groups burning their way through Haiti's cities today include groups that, (according to myriad sources including sworn testimony before Congress by U.S. officials, reporters, and reports of Haitian recipients of covert aid,) were funneling drugs to the U.S. while in the pay of U.S. intelligence agents.

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According to Tom Reeves, the admittedly poorly-attended elections were not the stuff of grand vote larceny. "All sides," he wrote in a very fine article last fall in Dollars and Sense, "concede that Aristide won the presidential ballot with 92 percent of the voteThe sole disagreement is over run-off elections for seven senators from Aristide's part who obtained pluralities but not majorities in the first round. The seven senators eventually resigned, making way for new elections." Nonetheless, these electoral "abuses" were grounds for the Bush administration and pliant international partners in Europe to suspend hundreds of millions of dollars in credit lines and aid to Haiti.

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the fifteen-party anti-Aristide coalition known as "Convergence" includes "every faction of the Haitian dominant class, factions who are generally at war with one another." Despite anemic support from the voting public (never approaching even 20 percent in opinion polls conducted even by the U.S.) what apparently they were able to converge on was three million dollars a year in funding in from the International Republican Institute, a Republican-party backed arm of the National Endowment for Democracy.

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Anyone heard of the NED before in any other connection? Backing coupsters in Venezuela, for instance? It's a known funnel for funds to destabilize governments the US doesn't like.

Add in that major officials in the Bush administration with responsibility for the region have been afte Aristide's ass, fairly publicly, for years.

Add in that the "rebels" crossed from the Dominican republic armed with many, many M-16s, rifle grenades, and anti-tank weapons coincidentally shortly after an American delivery of such weapons to the armed forces of the Dominican Republic.

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Countries push for inquiry into Aristide's claim
Last Updated Thu, 04 Mar 2004 13:43:47
KINGSTON, JAMAICA - South Africa joined 14 Caribbean nations Wednesday in calling for an independent international inquiry into Jean-Bertrand Aristide's claim that the United States forced him out of office.

Exiled Haitian leader Jean-Bertrand Aristide. (AP file photo)

"The suggestion that President Aristide may have been forced out of office, if true, will have serious consequences and ramifications for the respect of the rule of law and democracy the world over," said Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, South African foreign minister, in a statement.

Dlamini-Zuma called for a United Nations' investigation to "clarify" the circumstances leading to the departure of Aristide.

"The international community must not be seen to be wavering in its commitment to democracy and the respect for the rule of law, particularly in the face of anti-democratic forces," she said.

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Does anyone else find it utterly humiliating that tiny little countries like Jamaica and Barbados are courageous enough to raise a stink over US actions, while Canada meekly tags along at Dubya's heels? Sickening.

BTW, Aristide still plans to return to Haiti:

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In a phone conversation with a French writer Mr Aristide said he had not officially resigned and still planned to return home. ...

In the telephone conversation with Haiti specialist Claude Ribbe, Mr Aristide said that he had signed a document to "avoid a bloodbath" but that there was no formal resignation.

The ousted president was speaking from the Central African Republic, from where it has been rumoured he will travel on to South Africa.

But he said any new destination would only be a step on a journey back to Haiti.

"I'm not the kind of person to stay in exile... If I have to make a stopover in South Africa, I will - before going back home."

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Anyone heard of the NED before in any other connection? Backing coupsters in Venezuela, for instance? It's a known funnel for funds to destabilize governments the US doesn't like.

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Yes the so-called "National Endowment for Democracy" has a very long and sordid history of subverting governments that the U.S. doesn't like.

As soon as you know "NED" is involved, you know its a CIA operation! NED played a role in subverting the Sandinista government in Nicaragua in the 1980's amongst other things.

By the way this story on union-busting by the new thugs in charge in Haiti just came out:

Labour Start- Haiti: Immediate action needed to support new union under attack

Sabotage the economy of your opponent and then claim your opponent is incompetent, undemocratic, corrupt, has ties to drug smugglers etc.

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"All agents of the private press and the foreign press must go to the foreign ministry over any matter related to the stay of Jean-Bertrand Aristide, for better coordination and orientation," said a broadcast government statement.

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Observers have said that Bangui came under pressure from foreign powers to take in Aristide, probably in exchange for aid and international recognition of a post-coup government.

The state coffers have been emptied by years of high-level corruption and political instability, and the current government came to power after the coup on March 15 last year in which elected leader Ange-Felix Patasse was ousted.

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So lemme get this straight: the US & France engineer the overthrow of an elected government by armed thugs, then arrange to have him exiled to... ANOTHER country in which an elected government was recently overthrown by armed thugs.

Oh. How nice.

Hallelujah! Democracy marches on!!!

[ 07 March 2004: Message edited by: beluga2 ]

Naaahh, that's just tin-foil hat talk.

The US is a champion of democracy and human rights across the globe.
The US is a champion of democracy and human rights across the globe.
The US is a champion of democracy and human rights across the globe.

Contrast these numbers with the "thousands" who are reported by the AP and Reuters to have demonstrated against Aristide that same day. In corp-news the real numbers do not find their way onto the pages. This has been consistent for years.

Scott McClellan is lying when he says Aristide did not fulfill the CARICOM proposal. Check out what the CARICOM has to say about this. They are calling for an investigation into Aristide's overthrow and will not recognize the illegitimate government that is being formed.

In 2002, CARICOM pleaded with Colin Powell to release the desperately needed funds that were being withheld. He rejected these pleas given his and the DOS agenda.
http://www.caricom.org/pressreleases/pres28_02.htm

Also worth noting is that in 1994 "From September 17 to 19, a team consisting of [then-retired] Gen. Colin Powell, Sen. Sam Nunn, and Jimmy Carter persuaded the junta to leave Haiti voluntarily and let the Multinational Forceland unopposed." From Chetan Kumar's "Building Peace in Haiti", p. 26, 1998.

This was not so much about Aristide in any case as it was about trashing Haiti's right to self-determination.

Note: Emergency Debate on Haiti in House of Commons Wednesday. Contact Svend Robinson, who will be leading the questions for the NDP, possibly the only genuinely critical voice to be heard. Canadians have a right to a full inquiry into our involvement, violation of international laws, etc.

[ 10 March 2004: Message edited by: anthony ]

[ 10 March 2004: Message edited by: anthony ]

This description immedialty belittles, even our Haitian allies, by using terminology associated with our prejudices about 'primitive' black society. Why not a council of elder statesmen?

[ 12 March 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

It seems the U.S. translation of Aristide's 'resignation' letter dosesn't quite match the AP's
the U.S. and AP version both say

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The Constitution cannot be drowned in the blood of the Haitian people.

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For that reason, if tonight it is my resignation that will avoid a bloodbath, I accept to leave with the hope that there will be life and not death.

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For that reason, tonight I am resigning in order to avoid a bloodbath.

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[ 17 March 2004: Message edited by: thebabblerformerlyknownas'larry' ]

They've also said that Aristide shouldn't be allowed to return to the Western Hemisphere:

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Meanwhile, senior officials of the Bush administration have expressed their opposition to Aristide being in the Western Hemisphere. James Foley, the US Ambassador to Haiti, said Jamaica was taking on a “risk and a responsibility” in welcoming Aristide. He said "His coming within 150 miles from Haiti is promoting violence.”

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice said Sunday on NBC's Meet the Press "We think it's a bad idea. We believe that President Aristide, in a sense, forfeited his ability to lead his people, because he did not govern democratically."

On Sunday, before Aristide began his return back to the Caribbean, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said on CNN "The hope is that he will not come back into the hemisphere and complicate [the] situation."

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"Canada has expressed concern over the presence of ousted Haitian president Jean-Bertrand Aristide in Jamaica, Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham said Wednesday.

"I've spoken to the foreign minister of Jamaica; obviously we are concerned," Graham said when asked about Aristide's visit to Jamaica. Aristide stepped down as president of Haiti less than three weeks ago as a violent uprising swept across the Caribbean country.

Flown to exile in Central African Republic on a U.S. plane, Aristide later claimed that he was abducted and forced from office. His supporters have called for his return.

His current stay in nearby Jamaica, supposedly to reunite with his daughters, has prompted worries in Port-au-Prince, Washington and Ottawa that his presence in the Caribbean could provoke more violence among his supporters.

"Our belief is we need stability and change in Haiti," Graham said.

"We need a new climate of political co-operation, and therefore we certainly would urge the government of Jamaica . . . we certainly would urge Mr. Aristide - who did resign - to remain outside the Haitian political situation so we can get a new stability and a fresh start.""

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2004/03/17/385672-cp.html

"Sen. Christopher Dodd says he wants to know whether U.S. taxpayers paid to train Haitians who plotted to overthrow President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

Dodd (D-Conn.) also wants to know if the United States supplied arms used by anti-Aristide rebels.

Dodd's focus is on the Dominican Republic, where over the past two years a group called the International Republican Institute trained hundreds of Aristide opponents, giving them classes in political organizing and similar skills."

"The question is: Was the Dominican Republic being used as a staging ground for weapons transfers and coup plotting?" said an aide to Dodd.

At a hearing last week of a Senate subcommittee on Western Hemisphere affairs, Dodd asked Assistant Secretary of State Roger Noriega about the M-16s, citing several Defense Department letters written in 2002 and last year. Noriega said that, as far as he knew, the guns had not been delivered to the Dominican Republic, though Dodd's aide said the letters appear to show a completed transfer.

From the moment Aristide went into exile two weeks ago - prodded by U.S. diplomats - Bush administration critics have cast a suspicious eye at Noriega, saying he had been trying for years to get Aristide out of power. Noriega has been part of a group of archconservative policymakers that considered Aristide too left-leaning."

Cueball, I have the URL to the Gazette story somewhere, just haven't had time to dig it up yet. The falsification of the number of demonstrators by corp and Haitian -elite-owned - media has been consistent for years, probably decades if not longer, depending of course on the context. In any case, when I find it I'll forward it.

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Originally posted by josh:
Questions focus on the role of the Dominican Republic, a Republican version of the old Cominterm, and an Assistant Secretary of State:

"Sen. Christopher Dodd says he wants to know whether U.S. taxpayers paid to train Haitians who plotted to overthrow President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

Dodd (D-Conn.) also wants to know if the United States supplied arms used by anti-Aristide rebels.

Dodd's focus is on the Dominican Republic, where over the past two years a group called the International Republican Institute trained hundreds of Aristide opponents, giving them classes in political organizing and similar skills."

"The question is: Was the Dominican Republic being used as a staging ground for weapons transfers and coup plotting?" said an aide to Dodd.

At a hearing last week of a Senate subcommittee on Western Hemisphere affairs, Dodd asked Assistant Secretary of State Roger Noriega about the M-16s, citing several Defense Department letters written in 2002 and last year. Noriega said that, as far as he knew, the guns had not been delivered to the Dominican Republic, though Dodd's aide said the letters appear to show a completed transfer.

From the moment Aristide went into exile two weeks ago - prodded by U.S. diplomats - Bush administration critics have cast a suspicious eye at Noriega, saying he had been trying for years to get Aristide out of power. Noriega has been part of a group of archconservative policymakers that considered Aristide too left-leaning."

http://tinyurl.com/23lj9

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"Jamaica's decision to welcome former Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide has infuriated Bush administration officials, who say U.S. relations with English-speaking Caribbean countries have reached a new low.

Senior U.S. officials refuse to speculate whether Washington will retaliate against Jamaica, which currently presides over the Caribbean Community (CARICOM) regional bloc.

But other U.S. officials say that if Aristide's return from Africa to the Caribbean triggers new bloodshed in Haiti and U.S. troops get in harm's way, there would be congressional calls for a strong U.S. reaction against Jamaica.

Asked whether the United States will take any concrete measures against Jamaica, U.S. officials say the Bush Administration will not cut aid to fight AIDS in the region or reduce other kinds of humanitarian assistance. But they hint that other nonhumanitarian bilateral programs could be slowed down."